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nerdz posted:I think tuning enemy HP down will do half of the work, hitreg fixes will fix 30% and a weapon damage/exotic rebalance could deal with the rest. I'd like to see the hitreg addressed before they start doing any more system changes like addressing hp/weapon stats. It's impossible for them or anyone to balance r/b/y when parts of it aren't even working reliably enough to know what even needs to be changed and what's just buggy. for all we know fixing hitreg will bring AR/SMG back up to par without any other changes - or at least, without as big of a change as it "feels like" they need now. One step at a time, y'know? Psion fucked around with this message at 18:04 on Mar 26, 2020 |
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Mar 26, 2020 18:00
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Psion posted:I'd like to see the hitreg addressed before they start doing any more system changes like addressing hp/weapon stats. It's impossible for them or anyone to balance r/b/y when parts of it aren't even working reliably enough to know what even needs to be changed and what's just buggy. yeah for sure, but HP has already been tuned down. let's hope they don't overcorrect like on skills last year. Tuned down enemies, boosted skills (only clusters actually) the gently caress up, THEN dropped BTSU gloves on top of it.
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Mar 26, 2020 18:07
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nerdz posted:Removing weapon damage is a bit too extreme, but reducing the delta from 0 DPS investment to max would be a good starting point. I mean gonna defend my thought here anyway, but more reasonably maybe? I dunno. Weapon Damage % affects the other two disproportionately to how the other two affect it. Defense is unnecessary if the enemy is not shooting back because they are already dead. Crowd Control is less of an issue if there are no crowds. Part of the design philosophy was to make agents a bit squishier, so defense in and of itself generally wasn't ever intended for you to be able to just face-tank any particular opposition. Skills tend to have some utility but if you can't thin a crowd while they're burning or blind or what have you, you run into the problem you had when the encounter started, except with a skill on cooldown. Adjusting enemy health (TTK) for something a little more on the curvey part of the bell curve would solve a lot of all of that, but make all-red weapon damage builds ludicrously powerful, and therefore a best-choice. It's too good now so making it even better makes it outright broken. Get rid of it entirely, and force red into a secondary-skills tradeoff the way yellow currently is and blue might be if blue was worth having. So yeah, I do think the idea of removing a primary entirely is kind of novel because players tend to be pretty attached to the way things already are. But how things are isn't really as good as it could be and never will be as long as the outsized influence of one of the pillars is present.
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Mar 26, 2020 18:26
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Casnorf posted:Ahaha, okay, misread you then. Sorry, it's way too easy to get too involved in yourself when you don't have anyone to bounce ideas off of. The issue is that you're talking about nerfs when the system is already fundamentally broken. Until they fix the hit registration issues automatic weaposn will be hosed and we won't know what needs to be done.
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Mar 26, 2020 18:29
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I'd say the biggest problem is that making hybrid builds are pointless now because the balance is so out of whack. Hybrid builds should be the go-to for solo or duo play and those difficulties should be balanced around that fact. Group play should necessitate specialization and be balanced accordingly. I think setting up all the core attributes on a tier system would probably be a more elegant way of handling the whole system. Right now, red cores give +weapon damage on a percentage basis. Blue cores give armor on a flat value. Yellow cores give skill tiers which translate into bonus percentages that vary from skill to skill. Instead of red and blue cores giving just weapon damage or armor, in a tiered system you could reduce the individual bonuses and then give extra bonuses for having more. Extra red cores could give more CHC, CHD, and headshot damage at higher tiers (not necessarily all at each tier) while blue cores could give hazard protection and explosive resistance. So instead of 6 red cores giving you a max of +90% weapon damage, it could be reduced to something like +60% with bonuses to CHC, CHD, and HSD to make up for it. You should be powerful but squishy and in order to survive you should need a tank or healer with you. The system could be extrapolated out to give bonuses to certain skills based on the number of cores, like how shields are currently affected by blue cores. Pulse, for instance, could be improved by having red cores so that you gain an offensive advantage with it. This would also be a big benefit to solo hybrid builds because you could get effective skills without having to go all yellow. The system could also be augmented by giving every specialization a specific core as a bonus, similar to Technician. Sharpshooter and Gunner could give a bonus red, Demolitionist and Firewall a bonus blue, and Survivalist a bonus yellow so they all lean into a certain build while opening up build diversity. The last big advantage of the tier system is that the values can be tweaked alongside enemy balance if needed without throwing everyone's builds totally out of whack.
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Mar 26, 2020 18:40
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Cyrano4747 posted:The issue is that you're talking about nerfs when the system is already fundamentally broken. Until they fix the hit registration issues automatic weaposn will be hosed and we won't know what needs to be done. The hit registration bug is entirely separate from the design doc problem I'm outlining and largely unaffected in either direction. You can talk about one and leave the other out of it completely. I do not think the words "nerf" and "broken" mean what you think they mean. A fundamental redesign of a core mechanic is very different from a nerf. Unless you just mean "nerf" to be taken as "anything I don't really like," which isn't super conducive to productive conversation but I suppose can make you feel a little better. The only thing "broken" right now is the automatic weapons not registering all of the hits, and that's perfectly reasonable but I'd hardly say any particular system as a whole within the construct of the game is "broken" and should be trashed entirely. I think the game's in a really good place and has a lot of potential for growth, but that doesn't mean there aren't some moves to be made along the way.
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Mar 26, 2020 19:22
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Casnorf posted:The hit registration bug is entirely separate from the design doc problem I'm outlining and largely unaffected in either direction. You can talk about one and leave the other out of it completely. You're talking about gutting the most successful builds right now. Maybe you don't see that as a nerf, but every person running them will. There are ways to adjust this stuff, but ideally you do it by improving the systems that aren't working, not by gutting the ones that are.
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Mar 26, 2020 19:49
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Shoren posted:I'd say the biggest problem is that making hybrid builds are pointless now because the balance is so out of whack. Hybrid builds should be the go-to for solo or duo play and those difficulties should be balanced around that fact. Group play should necessitate specialization and be balanced accordingly. Not sure how to get there with the current systems and balance but this sounds like a great place to get to. I already have some builds that are better solo vs. group but this just feels intuitive to me as for how to you want to craft builds.
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Mar 26, 2020 20:10
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Cyrano4747 posted:You're talking about gutting the most successful builds right now. Well I think part of the point Casnorf is trying to make is that near-pure or pure gun damage builds being the only successful builds right now is the result of an even larger fundamental problem. If that fundamental problem isn't fixed then nothing can ever be truly fixed. Obviously changing weapon damage cores to something else would also require a balance change to many, many, many other things but you sort of have to assume those changes will happen and also work well to discuss a possible theory. I can see the potential value in taking passive weapon damage bonuses out of the game entirely and only increase weapon damage via critical chance/damage (perhaps, as mentioned, having those replace the core attribute) or via talents. It would probably allow talents to become far more powerful rather than mostly supplemental. An example off the top of my head would be a talent like Wicked. It triggers off of skills more than anything else but if a skill build uses Wicked at the moment it's basically useless because you're getting 18% more weapon damage on top of barely anything. However if everyone has mostly the same base damage already then 18% (or whatever it would turn into) suddenly becomes a lot more useful to the person who applied the status.
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Mar 26, 2020 20:19
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What's a reliable way to shock 3 enemies at the same time? I haven't really paid much attention to shock damage, there's occasionally some environmental item that does it, but aside from that I could only think about Tamper Proof. But Tamper Proof is only 3m radius and takes quite a few seconds to trigger so I found it pretty much impossible to capture even unaware enemies with that.
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Mar 26, 2020 20:23
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You can apply status effects as pure "red" too. Is like spark, using skills as a way to buff your weapon damage. Explosive seeker and fire sticky are fast to deploy and help keep wicked up.
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Mar 26, 2020 20:24
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GhostDog posted:What's a reliable way to shock 3 enemies at the same time? I haven't really paid much attention to shock damage, there's occasionally some environmental item that does it, but aside from that I could only think about Tamper Proof. But Tamper Proof is only 3m radius and takes quite a few seconds to trigger so I found it pretty much impossible to capture even unaware enemies with that. Just use the shock trap. Drop it on a group with the proper number of one type of enemy in it.
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Mar 26, 2020 20:25
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That's one of the new WONY skills is it? Of course I completely forgot about that. Thanks.
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Mar 26, 2020 20:26
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Cyrano4747 posted:Just use the shock trap. Drop it on a group with the proper number of one type of enemy in it. Also this should be done with a tier 6 skill build. This increases the radius of the trap and the number of shock thingies to make sure you get all 3 guys.
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Mar 26, 2020 21:02
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Jose Oquendo posted:Also this should be done with a tier 6 skill build. This increases the radius of the trap and the number of shock thingies to make sure you get all 3 guys. I got it done with a tier 0 build no problems. Just spotted a patrol of 3 blues and an orange out in the world while walking between poo poo, snuck up on them, and dropped it. I mean, you're right it would be easier, but it's not impossible with just whatever you have lying around.
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Mar 26, 2020 21:06
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Guillermus posted:You can apply status effects as pure "red" too. Is like spark, using skills as a way to buff your weapon damage. Explosive seeker and fire sticky are fast to deploy and help keep wicked up. That's not the point I was making. Yes, a gun or armor build can apply a status effect, or in the case Spark just damage something with a skill, but a skill build can do that far, far, far more often. That should give them an advantage if they want to use skills like Wicked or Spark but a skill build using those talents is actually bad because its giving them relatively small bonus on top of what is already at 0. And while I was typing I wonder if one of the ways to fix talents like that within the current system is to apply the scaling effect that a few of the other talents have to other talents and introducing new talents that give "hybrid" effects. An example of a scaling talent would be Protected Reload, it gives the group bonus armor depending on how many blue cores are on the player with Protected Reload - I think its 0-18%? So taking talents like Wicked or Spark they could give, to pull some easily multiplied numbers out of my rear end that probably don't work practically, 5% weapon damage for 10 seconds if you have 0 yellow cores but 35% weapon damage if you have 6 yellow cores. There could be talents that amplify the next skill you deploy depending on the number of hits you land on enemies within some time limit - 1 red core means you get skill tier 1 after X hits within Y seconds but if you have 6 red cores and then the next skill you deploy is skill tier 6. This could only occur once every, say, 2 minutes. Armor builds could get talents that perhaps scale off the damage you absorb without your armor breaking. Something like "During combat absorb X damage within Y seconds without your armor breaking..." and using an armor kit could refresh the Y seconds back to 0 so you can reach the X damage easier. There could be any number of bonuses this could trigger - weapon damage and skill tiers would be just start.
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Mar 26, 2020 21:18
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Having gear talents which cross the trinity would be neat. Like blue cores increasing the skill tier of shields. Skill talent that scales off red cores, gun damage talent based on blue cores, defensive/resilience skill scaling on yellow cores, etc. allows for some hybrid options.
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Mar 26, 2020 22:47
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Casnorf posted:Unless you just mean "nerf" to be taken as "anything I don't really like," which isn't super conducive to productive conversation but I suppose can make you feel a little better. how many fedoras do you own putting stuff like this in your posts makes you read like a prick, please stop
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Mar 26, 2020 22:56
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Blind Duke posted:Having gear talents which cross the trinity would be neat. Like blue cores increasing the skill tier of shields. Skill talent that scales off red cores, gun damage talent based on blue cores, defensive/resilience skill scaling on yellow cores, etc. allows for some hybrid options. I think this is kind of the direction they'd wanted to go with the system from the first game. I like it, too. Now of course my perverse sense of humor wants pure utility skills to scale off anything but yellow... Basically I'm all for a general homogenization of power level while keeping a huge diversity of power method. By which I mean that if you are level 40 you are always in a relatively narrow band of effectiveness but have near total freedom to choose playstyle. Ideally. Of course. That's a tough target to hit, no doubt, but the observed fact that the current state of red cores only widens the power band tells me that they are The Problem. Get rid of them in favor of something that shortens the long tails on the bell curve. I can throw in a baseball metaphor and a car analogy too if you like. Edit: Psion, I appreciate you, and it's possible I was a condescending prick for no reason. In which case, I apologize! Seemed like the right idea at the time but reading back I'm not sure I see it. My bad. I can only hope the next time I'm a huge jerkhole it's justified! Casnorf fucked around with this message at 23:16 on Mar 26, 2020 |
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Mar 26, 2020 23:08
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Dr. Krieger posted:Not sure how to get there with the current systems and balance but this sounds like a great place to get to. I already have some builds that are better solo vs. group but this just feels intuitive to me as for how to you want to craft builds. I think it makes sense because if you're on your own then you need a little bit of everything to get by. You need to be able to kill, to take some damage without dying, and although skills are entirely necessary they're also a defining feature of the game so they shouldn't be a luxury. Right now when you're solo you have to go all red to have a chance at killing anything in a reasonable amount of time, but it's a gamble that you won't get set on fire or have a bunch of suicide drones blindside you and instantly kill you. To that end, you should be able to kill fast enough, survive long enough, and have effective enough skills with only 2-3 of each core when solo. You can specialize to kill faster or survive much longer, but you should be trading off survivability and TTK as a result. The flip side of course needs to be that specializing means you are far more effective but need support from a group to survive. Having specialized roles in a group means the enemies can be tougher to account for the variety in builds. That means too tough for a group of hybrid builds to effectively deal with, but not impossible if they're persistent enough. This paradigm would make solo play a lot more enjoyable because it's not a matter of picking all reds and hoping you won't die of boredom because skills are useless. It would also encourage the DPS/tank/caster roles that Massive is trying to get players to fit into. I highly doubt that their system can't handle this sort of thing for various group sizes at each difficulty level, but I do doubt that they have the ability to visualize team comps like that and balance accordingly.
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Mar 26, 2020 23:21
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Is there a way to opt out of this polarity switch event once you opt in? Is it just stuck like this for the rest of the week?
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Mar 26, 2020 23:27
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tgacon posted:Is there a way to opt out of this polarity switch event once you opt in? Is it just stuck like this for the rest of the week? just toggle the slider to off.
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Mar 26, 2020 23:28
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Cyrano4747 posted:just toggle the slider to off. For clarification, you can do this from the Polarity Switch global event page in the seasons menu.
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Mar 26, 2020 23:44
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Shoren posted:For clarification, you can do this from the Polarity Switch global event page in the seasons menu. And only in a safe area.
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Mar 26, 2020 23:46
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Hybrid builds are a thing for solo Heroic - True Patriot gear is not hard to come by and is not that much slower at clearing levels than the 6 red meta. If it's an argument for efficiency then yes, doing more damage is always going to be faster than tanking damage and I can't see a way of balancing away from that. Skill builds are definitely at a disadvantage at solo Heroic ( they're still kickass in Solo Challenging ), Massive has always had a problem with balancing skills but if skill builds are best used as a group multiplier in Heroic then I'm all for it. A decent crowd controller could Shepherd 1-3 numpties through Heroic missions prior to Heroics being rebalanced, and now he's just a little more durable. I will put my hand up and say that Reclaimers was my go to group build so I'm already inclined to go that way.
ZombyDog fucked around with this message at 00:17 on Mar 27, 2020 |
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Mar 26, 2020 23:53
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Blind Duke posted:Having gear talents which cross the trinity would be neat. Like blue cores increasing the skill tier of shields. Skill talent that scales off red cores, gun damage talent based on blue cores, defensive/resilience skill scaling on yellow cores, etc. allows for some hybrid options. Skills scaling off of different cores is another thing that should probably be applied more liberally. I get why it's the only the shields which scale off both blue and yellow cores, it kind of makes sense and it's also something that probably won't break the game in some ridiculous fashion since you won't have a very powerful gun (certain builds that take advantage of the Technician skill tier bonus aside), but having something like the assault turret or striker drone scale off red cores could make things more varied and interesting as well. Perhaps only certain skills can go all the way to tier 6 without yellow cores - maybe the turret or drone can only reach tier 3 with 6 red cores.
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Mar 27, 2020 00:00
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Speaking of SMGs, I've been experimenting and I found a fun SMG build! Do you want to charge your Heroic enemies with reckless abandon and melt them like butter!? Do you want BIG DICK DAMAGE NUMBERS of 70 MILLION DPS*!?  Then try this SMG build featuring the CMMG Banshee!  Seriously, it's stupid fun and plays recklessly. Act like you're in the movie Crank and just gun fools down to heal yourself. You'll melt drat near anything in one mag. I tried the good ol' Vector but it's just not quite as good for heroic. The Banshee has a good balance of power/ROF/range. *That was a crazy lucky burst, it sustains around 50-55mil dps on named targets. Edit: Hakarne posted:
Hakarne posted:Here I put up a video of a sub-15 minute Heroic Jefferson Plaza run so you can see how it plays. I even hosed up at the end with the loving mortar I always forget to check Hakarne fucked around with this message at 04:45 on Mar 27, 2020 |
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Mar 27, 2020 01:05
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Played the polarity event for about a half hour, turned it off and have no desire to turn it back on. Hopefully the future events will be more fun.
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Mar 27, 2020 01:23
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"BBC News" posted:Mexican protesters have shut a US southern border crossing amid fears that untested American travellers will spread coronavirus. https://twitter.com/TheDivisionGame/status/1103362286599659520
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Mar 27, 2020 02:40
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GhostDog posted:What's a reliable way to shock 3 enemies at the same time? I haven't really paid much attention to shock damage, there's occasionally some environmental item that does it, but aside from that I could only think about Tamper Proof. But Tamper Proof is only 3m radius and takes quite a few seconds to trigger so I found it pretty much impossible to capture even unaware enemies with that. If you haven't done it yet I did this quite easily (after a suggestion to try it there) in the control room, the one with the elevated windows, of the Bunker mission. You get something like 5 or 6 outcasts spawning in the tiny room at the start and if you don't get it there the outcasts that spawn in the upper area tend to crowd in front of an electrical panel you can shoot if there are 3 near it.
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Mar 27, 2020 03:27
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 One biggest reason to use Savage Wolverine or Honey Badger. Chrome skin (650 prem credit)!
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Mar 27, 2020 03:35
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Aesis posted:
That's definitely worthy of the Tacticlol thread.
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Mar 27, 2020 03:40
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Hakarne posted:Speaking of SMGs, I've been experimenting and I found a fun SMG build! Do you want to charge your Heroic enemies with reckless abandon and melt them like butter!? I'm intrigued but this gif is tiny and unreadable for me, got another link?
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Mar 27, 2020 03:52
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Bold Robot posted:I'm intrigued but this gif is tiny and unreadable for me, got another link? Sorry! CMMG Banshee with Strained and off-hand LMG/Rifle of your choice. Skills are Banshee Pulse and Revive Hive Coyote's Mask Ceska Vyroba Backpack (10% Crit Chance Bonus) with Unstoppable Force Contractor's Gloves (Dmg to Armor) Sokolov Concern Chest (SMG Dmg) with Obliterate Grupo Sombra OR Sokolov Concern Holster (Both give +15% Crit dmg) Fox's Prayer (Dmg to Targets out of cover) I run an elite dmg reduction mod in the backpack, stack crit to get to 60% on your SMG (as you want to be up close to get +25% crit dmg from Coyote's Mask) and then go balls out with crit dmg from there. I have a few unoptimal rolls of armor regen, which is kinda nice if you do need to hang back. But I've had surprising luck just throwing caution to the wind and gunning things down up close and personal most of the time. Open with Banshee Pulse and gun down as many weaker enemies as you can to get Unstoppable Force rolling. Once that's up heavies and elites will melt and just keep killing to get armor back from Gunner. Edit: Oh and also I have no idea how well this will work in groups but it should still be pretty good. Hakarne fucked around with this message at 04:12 on Mar 27, 2020 |
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Mar 27, 2020 04:04
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Not to knock on your build which is pretty good, it's kinda annoying to me that pretty much all DPS builds are the exact same right now with the contractor's prayer combo bullshit. At least you're not using the M1a with vigilance+glass cannon. They really hosed up with these named item numbers and 90% of exotics being unfun trash. unstoppable force falls off hard in groups, as any on kill talent tends to do.
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Mar 27, 2020 04:24
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Glass cannon is used now after the patch? I was always afraid to try it on my M1A build.
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Mar 27, 2020 04:31
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Dandywalken posted:Glass cannon is used now after the patch? I was always afraid to try it on my M1A build. people were already using it before the patch. the damage you took was already enough to trigger the anti one shot mechanic without it infinite * 1.5 is still infinite.
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Mar 27, 2020 04:32
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Here I put up a video of a sub-15 minute Heroic Jefferson Plaza run so you can see how that SMG build plays. I even hosed up at the end with the loving mortar I always forget to check  . But that's why you run revive hive!https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQYg6WSTscM Edit: Lol it almost feels bugged with how much damage it's putting out. I took it through Challenging Fed Bunker since I know what group synergy is like with that. Over 2 billion dmg and it bugged out lmao. We cleared it in under 14 minutes in a group of 4.  And the others in my group weren't slouches either, probably one of the best pubbie groups I've ever run with. I was thinking of swapping Unstoppable Force for groups but don't worry you'll get plenty of kills Hakarne fucked around with this message at 06:49 on Mar 27, 2020 |
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Mar 27, 2020 04:44
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Hakarne posted:sub-15 minute Heroic Sir, you are speaking my language. I'll have to try this out since I'm just missing the chest and I might as well burn through all the crafting caches the season gave me.
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Mar 27, 2020 05:18
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Should I care at all about my loot pre-level 40? I'm currently at WT2 and making my way forward and junking whatever into my recalibration library, or should I hang on to the stuff?
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Mar 27, 2020 15:32
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