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gimme the GOD drat candy posted:whether or not kurt is the most suitable person, he's definitely the one who would step up and do it. that's just who he is. "I'm a good person so I'm going to develop a new religious system even though I already have a deeply held personal one" is not very convincing. It's loving lazy, and one of the very few missteps in this run so far.
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Mar 27, 2020 19:07
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On Page 5, Kurt failed to genuflect when entering the basilica, the writing in this poo poo loving SUCKS (no one tell this guy about the Catholic Schism)
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Mar 27, 2020 19:17
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How Wonderful! posted:Or Exodus, the pre-existing head of.... mutant religion. This sounds like a BAD idea.
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Mar 27, 2020 19:34
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God forbid we allow bad ideas on our separatist island where teenagers are encouraged to ritualistically beg Apocalypse to kill you with a sword. My favorite thing about the Krakoa status quo is all the profoundly bad ideas simmering at once.
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Mar 27, 2020 19:42
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Death by combat builds character. LITERALLY, OHOHOHOHO
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Mar 27, 2020 19:45
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Sandwolf posted:On Page 5, Kurt failed to genuflect when entering the basilica, the writing in this poo poo loving SUCKS I'm not requesting pedantry. I'm suggesting not defaulting to using the "religious character" to discuss religion as if that's the only option. And in this case, it's also a bad one, imo. Also, the gently caress does the Schism have to do with this? Kurt is (was?) very clearly a post-Vatican II Roman Catholic.
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Mar 27, 2020 20:09
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Is Wolfsbane still... whatever flavor of Protestant she used to be?
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Mar 27, 2020 23:01
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It doesn't really seem so based on her recent characterization. She's been portrayed as much looser and relaxed and flirtatious. Honestly, I'm loving glad for it, she had gotten really stagnant.
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Mar 27, 2020 23:43
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danbanana posted:"I'm a good person so I'm going to develop a new religious system even though I already have a deeply held personal one" is not very convincing. e: And part of the contrast of this scene is probably "Kurt says 'I need to start a mutant religion'" which then jump cuts to Apocalypse doing Crucible. Big Lips is already doin' it
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Mar 27, 2020 23:47
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rantmo posted:It doesn't really seem so based on her recent characterization. She's been portrayed as much looser and relaxed and flirtatious. Honestly, I'm loving glad for it, she had gotten really stagnant. Rahne had had that going on since that DeFilippis/Weir New Mutants miniseres (where she, uh, made out with a student). I dunno, she hadn't really been all 'tis nae proper!' since Claremont. For my money's it's more interesting to integrate something and reconcile it instead of just ignoring it.
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Mar 28, 2020 00:32
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Gologle posted:Death by combat builds character. LITERALLY, OHOHOHOHO That was honestly the least icky thing about it. They spent the whole time talking up that the only thing that gives you worth is if you have super powers and that if you lack the ability to turn your fingernails blue under a full moon you're little more than a soulless animal undeserving of basic dignity.
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Mar 28, 2020 02:38
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galagazombie posted:That was honestly the least icky thing about it. They spent the whole time talking up that the only thing that gives you worth is if you have super powers and that if you lack the ability to turn your fingernails blue under a full moon you're little more than a soulless animal undeserving of basic dignity.
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Mar 28, 2020 02:48
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galagazombie posted:That was honestly the least icky thing about it. They spent the whole time talking up that the only thing that gives you worth is if you have super powers and that if you lack the ability to turn your fingernails blue under a full moon you're little more than a soulless animal undeserving of basic dignity.
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Mar 28, 2020 02:59
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Nah they're super racist against humans rn. This issue of X-Men/FF has Doom, of all people, laying it on pretty well.
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Mar 28, 2020 03:08
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Doom is never wrong (except when he is)
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Mar 28, 2020 03:11
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Saying Krakoans are racist against humans is to ignore that they've spent the last however many years being oppressed by humans.
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Mar 28, 2020 03:13
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Endless Mike posted:Saying Krakoans are racist against humans is to ignore that they've spent the last however many years being oppressed by humans. "The real racists are the people who are mad that we tried to kill them all those times."
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Mar 28, 2020 03:21
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Endless Mike posted:Saying Krakoans are racist against humans is to ignore that they've spent the last however many years being oppressed by humans. I mean one does not preclude the other. There are real world examples of oppressed people who had no problem shifting into being oppressors. The mutants are not quite there yet but there are alternate futures where they absolutely are. (And of course alternate futures where they are massively oppressed by humans so hey! Shitlords for all.)
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Mar 28, 2020 03:23
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Endless Mike posted:Saying Krakoans are racist against humans is to ignore that they've spent the last however many years being oppressed by humans. Just because the racism is justified doesn't make it less racist, though. It's been there since issue 1 of HoX. There's really no sugarcoating it. Unless you're suggesting the socially-relevant definition wherein you can't be racist against white people for instance because they're the dominant demographic benefiting from the system of racial oppression at play...but even that might be arguable in this instance because mutants currently are the ones holding the power in any way that matters.
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Mar 28, 2020 03:27
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galagazombie posted:That was honestly the least icky thing about it. They spent the whole time talking up that the only thing that gives you worth is if you have super powers and that if you lack the ability to turn your fingernails blue under a full moon you're little more than a soulless animal undeserving of basic dignity. To be fair, that was Apocalypse saying it and we saw other people like Scott and Logan being pretty uncomfortable with that whole thing.
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Mar 28, 2020 03:38
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galagazombie posted:That was honestly the least icky thing about it. They spent the whole time talking up that the only thing that gives you worth is if you have super powers and that if you lack the ability to turn your fingernails blue under a full moon you're little more than a soulless animal undeserving of basic dignity. Wasn't the crucible fight something depowered mutants chose to do, so they can be resurrected with their powers? They chose to fight Apocalypse as an alternative to committing suicide. It didn't seem like anyone was forced into it, all the Guthries were asking whatshername "are you sure you want to do this?" and stuff.
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Mar 28, 2020 03:50
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Pat Mustard posted:Wasn't the crucible fight something depowered mutants chose to do, so they can be resurrected with their powers? They chose to fight Apocalypse as an alternative to committing suicide. It didn't seem like anyone was forced into it, all the Guthries were asking whatshername "are you sure you want to do this?" and stuff. I think it's the whole having to fight him with a sword and take a lot of punishment mentally, physically, and verbally thing. There are easier and less painful ways to go.
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Mar 28, 2020 03:59
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Pat Mustard posted:Wasn't the crucible fight something depowered mutants chose to do, so they can be resurrected with their powers? They chose to fight Apocalypse as an alternative to committing suicide. It didn't seem like anyone was forced into it, all the Guthries were asking whatshername "are you sure you want to do this?" and stuff. Yep. It was put in place as a control so that the depowered mutants wouldn't all suicide enmasse, you basically have to fight to show you're worthy of getting your powers back/being put in the front of the resurrection line.
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Mar 28, 2020 03:59
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Codependent Poster posted:I think it's the whole having to fight him with a sword and take a lot of punishment mentally, physically, and verbally thing. There are easier and less painful ways to go. I think the idea was to make it difficult in order to avoid people bum-rushing the gates. Rationing on the basis of "are you willing to sword-fight Apocalypse?"
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Mar 28, 2020 04:31
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Pat Mustard posted:Wasn't the crucible fight something depowered mutants chose to do, so they can be resurrected with their powers? They chose to fight Apocalypse as an alternative to committing suicide. It didn't seem like anyone was forced into it, all the Guthries were asking whatshername "are you sure you want to do this?" and stuff. They chose to get their powers back and that was the only option they were allowed. I'm sure if you actually gave 99% of them a choice to just jump off a cliff or if that's too suicidey, charge an army of Brood with a bomb, they'd take that over Apocalypse's method in a heartbeat.
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Mar 28, 2020 04:50
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galagazombie posted:They chose to get their powers back and that was the only option they were allowed. I'm sure if you actually gave 99% of them a choice to just jump off a cliff or if that's too suicidey, charge an army of Brood with a bomb, they'd take that over Apocalypse's method in a heartbeat. That's literally the point. They don't WANT it to be easy. They're trying to DISCOURAGE people dying frivolously. "You want to skip to the front of the line? Fine, but you have to do something awful and painful. If you just slug down some pills and booze, you go to back of the line and wait for however long it takes us to get through millions of dead Genoshans. If you're not willing to fight for your right to die, maybe you should look into continuing to live as you are."
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Mar 28, 2020 05:42
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Unless the state has immediate use of you, in which case they'll happily throw the rules out the window to serve their own purposes.  Eventually poo poo's going to get to a point where they have the Five make multiple copies of themselves so they can throw the resurrection machine into overdrive, and we'll have ourselves a lovely little Clone Saga.
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Mar 28, 2020 06:15
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Cabbit posted:Unless the state has immediate use of you, in which case they'll happily throw the rules out the window to serve their own purposes. Every Jamie copy demands a copy
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Mar 28, 2020 06:20
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Cabbit posted:Unless the state has immediate use of you, in which case they'll happily throw the rules out the window to serve their own purposes. Nah, they don't want to do that. This is why they're looking for backups or replacements, like Synch. Plus if they start having babies, there will likely be replacements from them.
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Mar 28, 2020 06:53
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jng2058 posted:That's literally the point. They don't WANT it to be easy. They're trying to DISCOURAGE people dying frivolously. I think a lot of you are missing an additional point here, or simply choosing to ignore it: It's an opportunity to die on your feet in a show of determination surrounded by people who care about you. It's meant to feel like a triumph. That you have been tested and have overcome. As opposed to dying feeling weak and alone when you choose to overdose in your room and wait in line until someone in your cohort further ahead in the line of 16,000,000 waiting for resurrection has their number called up and is in need of a companion.
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Mar 28, 2020 06:54
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Adder Moray posted:I think a lot of you are missing an additional point here, or simply choosing to ignore it: Look I've dealt with depression for a long time and I've turned it over in my head all sorts of ways, and I am 99% sure I would rather overdose in my room feeling weak and alone than get chopped apart with a sword by an eight foot tall blue monster man. If the people in the crowd really cared they'd run down and put a stop to the whole farce. Every Big Two superhero comic Hickman has written in the past decade has been about power, and the right and wrong ways to use power, and what it means when you're powerful enough to decide what right and wrong are, and why that kind of power is attractive and interesting. I am not always on the same page as him, I don't think, but I am sure he is not unaware of the fact that "die with dignity and enter into power by being massacred in one-on-one combat with a giant guy" is an extremely on the nose magnification of the logic of fascism. Every form of fascism in the past century has insisted, in one way or another, that dying in violent struggle in the name of a sovereign power is nobler and more virtuous than dying at home of old age or of cancer or tuberculosis or whatever else. Apocalypse's trial is manifestly grotesque and I am 90% sure Hickman intends it to be.
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Mar 28, 2020 07:03
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How Wonderful! posted:Look I've dealt with depression for a long time and I've turned it over in my head all sorts of ways, and I am 99% sure I would rather overdose in my room feeling weak and alone than get chopped apart with a sword by an eight foot tall blue monster man. If the people in the crowd really cared they'd run down and put a stop to the whole farce. Which of these is the moral option for someone who wishes to be their whole selves again?
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Mar 28, 2020 07:34
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Adder Moray posted:But Melody Guthrie, isn't, as far as we can tell, depressed. She's missing a piece of herself that she wants back. She isn't suicidal, she just wants to be whole again and she's not going to actually die on the other end of this. And she's not trying to become powerful, she's trying to reclaim her identity that was stolen from her against her will. So why would the people in the crowd stop it? To tell her she's not allowed to do it? That she either has to live out the rest of her life until the time of her natural death, to endure her violation unnecessarily, and then be brought back before she's allowed to be her whole self again? That she has to instead go home and down a bottle of pills and go through that instead, that that's the only right way? Lethal injection that isn't actually painless, it just looks that way to outside observers? Maybe you'd prefer that instead of a fight, Apoc or some other mutant just kill her outright? I think you're missing the point. Yes you can "choose" to do this, but it's a false choice when you're offered no alternatives besides "Eat poo poo and wait behind several million Genoshans or live in a society that has open contempt for you now that you can't shoot lasers out your rear end". Endless Mike posted:Saying Krakoans are racist against humans is to ignore that they've spent the last however many years being oppressed by humans. Saying humans are all the same who are all irredeemable seems pretty racist to me. Almost like saying all mutants are the same is racist.
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Mar 28, 2020 08:16
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Codependent Poster posted:Nah, they don't want to do that. This is why they're looking for backups or replacements, like Synch. Plus if they start having babies, there will likely be replacements from them. They don't want to do that yet, is all I'm saying.
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Mar 28, 2020 08:31
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galagazombie posted:I think you're missing the point. Yes you can "choose" to do this, but it's a false choice when you're offered no alternatives besides "Eat poo poo and wait behind several million Genoshans or live in a society that has open contempt for you now that you can't shoot lasers out your rear end". And...no, it's really not a false choice. There are no lies here, no pretense or ambiguity; you either want your powers enough to fight and die for them or you don't; the depowered mutants are given as much agency as they could possibly be given in this situation. Just because many will choose it because they see no other path doesn't mean the other path wasn't also readily available. There may very well be hundreds who choose not to go through the trouble. We don't know. Putting it another way...is there nothing that you want that would be worth going through the Crucible for?
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Mar 28, 2020 08:44
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Wolverine doesn't like the crucible, so that should say something. One of the most violent guys is going "don't wanna see that."
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Mar 28, 2020 08:54
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Codependent Poster posted:Wolverine doesn't like the crucible, so that should say something. One of the most violent guys is going "don't wanna see that." He doesn't like seeing kids get hurt.
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Mar 28, 2020 08:56
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BrianWilly posted:Ehh, open contempt is taking it way too far. We've seen no indication that any depowered mutants have been ostracized in that way outside of Apocalypse talking smack during the actual ritual. Instead, we see that Exodus is teaching younger mutants to have sympathy and respect for the millions that got depowered. They absolutely make a distinction between the depowered mutants and the human(s) who victimized them. "Those starving orphans had a choice to knife each other over the half eaten hamburger I offered to the winner. What do you mean I could have easily just bought them lunch?"
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Mar 28, 2020 09:04
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Disregarding for a moment that the comparison here is ridiculous and any attempt to follow through on it is going to sound ridiculous as well...they can't just easily buy everyone lunch. There are literally millions of orphans ahead of you on the lunch line, except they're in even worse shape than you are (because they're dead, you see). You, in fact, already got your lunch. You want more lunch than everyone else. So fine, you get your extra portions as well ahead of the million dead orphans, but only if you go through something really difficult and painful. It's not an elegant solution and it's not very nice. But no one's forcing you to do it, you're the one who's insisting.
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Mar 28, 2020 09:14
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i'm not certain of just how proteus works. the presumption is that this is a backup mind in a clone body, who presumably burned out his initial clone body in short order and began living in a series of xavier clones. except, unlike the rest of the five proteus was dead so he clearly wasn't growing that first backup body with them. so, where did this version of proteus come from? there was no five before he popped up. he did come back during necrosha, and then went on to possess and eventually merge with morph in exiles. but that version is likely out of play, and i'm not sure if anyone in 616 was ever aware that it happened. is there a backup system for cloning? or, since this is x-men, is there some hosed up time paradox?
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Mar 28, 2020 09:37
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