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TorakFade posted:https://www.ilfattoquotidiano.it/20...ssaria/5744922/ There are(were now?) a lot of firms that told their workers that their activities were mission-critical when they did gently caress all, forcing workers to move to and from their offices, as per usual thanks to an handful of idiots the whole country suffers. The general lockdown, I believe, is a reaction not just to the deaths(which are still important) but to most other regions going 16+% daily, mostly due to worker/items movement. We are doing worse then everyone but Iran... EDIT: in case anyone wanted confirmation that the eu is currently running on "everyone for loving themselves" rules https://twitter.com/BenjaminNorton/status/1241717551819902977 SlowBloke fucked around with this message at 18:08 on Mar 22, 2020 |
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Mar 22, 2020 08:16
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SlowBloke posted:
They put out an update later saying that someone else had stolen them and when the Czech authorities found them they wanted time to investigate the shipment to figure out which scumbags did it, but after speaking with the Italian diplomats agreed it was better to send the masks to where they're needed urgently rather than try and figure out who tried to steal them.
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Mar 22, 2020 21:03
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SlowBloke posted:EDIT: in case anyone wanted confirmation that the eu is currently running on "everyone for loving themselves" rules Healthcare is not among the competences of the EU. Maybe this crisis will change that, because we're seeing that national responses are falling very short of what's needed to tackle the pandemic, and the utter lack of solidarity isn't making things better for anyone.
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Mar 22, 2020 21:10
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Cat Mattress posted:Healthcare is not among the competences of the EU. Maybe this crisis will change that, because we're seeing that national responses are falling very short of what's needed to tackle the pandemic, and the utter lack of solidarity isn't making things better for anyone. https://ec.europa.eu/health/policies/overview_en Healthcare policing is exactly what eu should do, having a general health crisis cause every European country is doing crisis response without a general play/rule book (which is one of the few mandates the eu has on the topic) is dramatically stupid.
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Mar 22, 2020 21:57
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Yeah, legislation, financial support, exchange of best practices, drug regulation, etc. while countries still "hold primary responsibility for organising and delivering health services and medical care". And we see the first two priorities are beancounting: quote:Achieving greater cost-effectiveness There's very little about crisis response.
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Mar 22, 2020 22:25
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"Competitiveness together with safety" this sounds like a motto from a dystopian novel
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Mar 23, 2020 03:21
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https://twitter.com/MKWilliamsRome/status/1242111040562892800 I tuoi sindaci sono fantastici.  According to my friend Angelo, the first guy is "completamente scemo." and he is surprised he is saying the correct thing in his idiocy.
FlapYoJacks fucked around with this message at 21:52 on Mar 23, 2020 |
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Mar 23, 2020 21:45
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ratbert90 posted:https://twitter.com/MKWilliamsRome/status/1242111040562892800 
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Mar 23, 2020 21:56
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ratbert90 posted:https://twitter.com/MKWilliamsRome/status/1242111040562892800 The first one is a governor (Campania) not a major, usually smaller town majors tends to be a lot more colorful and amicable than bigger towns. I wont deny that on the segment about hairdressers I relied on subs :/ SlowBloke fucked around with this message at 22:02 on Mar 23, 2020 |
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Mar 23, 2020 21:59
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partito politico nuovo: piω ghigliottine per tutti?
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Mar 24, 2020 01:50
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ratbert90 posted:partito politico nuovo: piω ghigliottine per tutti? That was the original M5S plan(at least for the political class) but it got watered down over time...
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Mar 24, 2020 10:43
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So I just heard in passing that the 500k covid tests that flew from Italy to the US were because Trump bribed one of your local companies to screw you all over? Is that true?
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Mar 24, 2020 10:56
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Tesseraction posted:So I just heard in passing that the 500k covid tests that flew from Italy to the US were because Trump bribed one of your local companies to screw you all over? Is that true? Medical supplies production is not (yet) nationalized, the U.S. government must have outbid the rest of the countries interested in those materiel.
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Mar 24, 2020 17:26
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Tesseraction posted:So I just heard in passing that the 500k covid tests that flew from Italy to the US were because Trump bribed one of your local companies to screw you all over? Is that true? Yes but afaik it's not reactants, just physical swabs? Which I don't know why they couldn't get it in the US but welp. Also the thing I truly, truly dislike, is how powertrippy local authorities have been trying to steal the show of handling the crisis from government. Rome closed off its parks almost immediately, despite no governmental indication to that effect. Most mayors are happy to chase around citizens breaking curfew or whatever, but they conspicuously have enacted basically 0 ordinances regarding enterprises staying open. Guess what dipshits, contagion spreads easier if you lock people in an office for 8h a day, rather than if they walk in a park for 1. They enact draconian poo poo that serves no purpose, or content themselves with shouting in a Youtube video like they're an early 2010s persona. I hate hate hate that they're getting more attention, and I have even harder that we have modern day flagellants shouting obscenities from their windows down to people they see in the street in a sort of irrational frenzy about people spreading contagion by walking their dogs. In Bergamo, by far the worst hit by contagion, local authorities deliberately and expressly refused to closed down production of its myriad factories. The "union" for industrialists lobbied hard for the city not to shut down. Result: military trucks have to carry out corpses from the overwhelmed hospitals, people by now are dying in their homes. Number was more important than all those people. The industrialists' union has blood smeared on its hands, and even when the gov't finally approved a bill to shut down production, they got two concessions to neuter even that provision: up until 25 March to shut down facilities, and basically if you argue with the local prefect that your facility is a vital one because it's part of a crucial supply chain, you get to stay open until a decision is reached to the contrary. Good poo poo. Gotta go on killing people and spreading that contagion to absolutely everyone possible so some fucker can watch a higher number on his stocks or whatever. Which brings me back to the original point: gently caress those mayors. gently caress those guys, all of them, for doing fascist, draconian, ineffectual poo poo and then failing to lobby for the one thing that would actually help stop contagion. People are still going to work. They have nothing else to do during the day except grocery shopping, and now there's military checkpoints to ensure people don't deviate from their home-work-store routes at all. Even drone surveillance for fucks sake. Gotta love that feeling of the rehearsals for a fascist dictatorship under martial law, gotta be a big show coming up soon. Thanks for reading my rant, I'll gently caress off now and try to do something more productive.
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Mar 24, 2020 19:08
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Hey Morton, are you a cyclist?
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Mar 24, 2020 20:14
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I do cycle to work when I go to work. It's close! I am not a plague-bearer I swear to God!!! luckily I've been home 4 weeks now, cabin fever will surely set in sooner rather than later and I'll just start wandering the streets naked and babbling incoherent things like "Berlusconi was right" or somesuch. On a more serious note, we haven't even seen the beginning of the worst yet. All these new "measures" (let's see first what are those exactly, we have to wait for it to be published in the Gazzetta Ufficiale, what's being said now is basically just rumors) seem to point in the direction of this being the beginning of a proper lockdown which will not be let up anytime soon unless this magically all goes away for some reason in the next couple weeks. e: lol https://twitter.com/KiwiEV/status/1242267839236583427 TorakFade fucked around with this message at 20:47 on Mar 24, 2020 |
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Mar 24, 2020 20:35
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The hat is the best part.
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Mar 24, 2020 21:06
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20 seconds in and now I am actually convinced this priest truly is on a mission from God.
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Mar 24, 2020 22:25
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People rioting and trying to loot supermarkets in the South because they don't have money to buy things anymore. Police and army are patrolling and guarding shopping malls and supermarkets now. https://www.ilfattoquotidiano.it/20...rciali/5751393/ I think the mafia may be involved in this, or it's the result of a high percentage of "lavoro nero" (I don't even know what's the english term - moonlighting? under the table/off the books work?) so those that relied on it as their only, or major, income are really out of options. Some legit companies are also not paying salaries as far as I know because "we're not making money so we're not paying"... In my humble opinion whoever doesn't have the equivalent of at least 2-3 months worth of salary in savings isn't handling their life properly because poo poo can Happen (as proven by the current situation) and it's everyone's responsibility to be able to weather the storm at least for a while, but of course I'm sure there's many cases where there are perfectly legitimate reasons for being so short on money... anyway, one way or another the state will have to do something about it because otherwise it'll be open riot. People won't stay at home and quietly die of hunger. It seems they realize this so they're planning to extend the "citizenship salary" (a sort of guaranteed minimum wage, pretty limited in scope, paid by the state for those that are too poor to sustain themselves) to a lot more people than wouldn't be entitled to it under normal circumstances... we'll see https://www.ilfattoquotidiano.it/20...-che-n/5752024/
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Mar 28, 2020 11:19
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People working off the books are barely making ends meet, let alone saving up any significant amount of cash, hth. Also if you're living in a big city, count that avg salary is 1,2k/month, and rent averages to 60% of that. If you are anything other than a childless couple you're not saving any money from that. mortons stork fucked around with this message at 11:25 on Mar 28, 2020 |
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Mar 28, 2020 11:23
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Reddito di Cittadinanza translates into Universal Basic Income FYI.
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Mar 28, 2020 13:37
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TorakFade posted:"lavoro nero" (I don't even know what's the english term - moonlighting? under the table/off the books work?) "Undeclared work" is what my dictionary tells me. "Moonlighting" AFAIK is more the idea of an undeclared work in addition to a regular occupation.
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Mar 28, 2020 16:33
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mortons stork posted:People working off the books are barely making ends meet, let alone saving up any significant amount of cash, hth. Oh I know. I spent the best part of the last ten years making between 700 and 1000/month, basically until my current job started last year that luckily pays more. Things are tough, but not as tough as some make it out to be (I personally know many people that "struggle to make ends meet" but smoke and drink for more than 200/month that could easily be saved...) limaCAT posted:Reddito di Cittadinanza translates into Universal Basic Income FYI. Thanks, I knew that but these days I have constant brain farts and manage to forget basic things 
TorakFade fucked around with this message at 23:20 on Mar 28, 2020 |
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Mar 28, 2020 20:12
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TorakFade posted:Oh I know. I spent the best part of the last ten years making between 700 and 1000€/month, basically until my current job started last year that luckily pays more. Things are tough, but not as tough as some make it out to be (I personally know many people that "struggle to make ends meet" but smoke and drink for more than 200€/month that could easily be saved...) Citizens practicing personal austerity on a mass scale is an excellent way to crash an economy. You're witnessing that right now when that's being forced to happen with the pandemic. Not sure how it is in Italy but also all the parsimony in the world is not going to help when rents dwarf all other expenses. You should consider the logical conclusions of your moral grandstanding.
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Mar 28, 2020 22:43
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mila kunis posted:Citizens practicing personal austerity on a mass scale is an excellent way to crash an economy. You're witnessing that right now when that's being forced to happen with the pandemic. Not sure how it is in Italy but also all the parsimony in the world is not going to help when rents dwarf all other expenses. You should consider the logical conclusions of your moral grandstanding. where did I ever say that I am practicing personal austerity?  please do not assume things about me, I do spend money, just without living above my means, that's all.
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Mar 28, 2020 23:26
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TorakFade posted:"lavoro nero" (I don't even know what's the english term - moonlighting? under the table/off the books work?) Under the table is the accepted English phrase.
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Mar 28, 2020 23:33
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TorakFade posted:Things are tough, but not as tough as some make it out to be (I personally know many people that "struggle to make ends meet" but smoke and drink for more than 200/month that could easily be saved...) 
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Mar 28, 2020 23:40
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TorakFade posted:Oh I know. I spent the best part of the last ten years making between 700 and 1000/month, basically until my current job started last year that luckily pays more. Things are tough, but not as tough as some make it out to be (I personally know many people that "struggle to make ends meet" but smoke and drink for more than 200/month that could easily be saved...)
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Mar 29, 2020 09:05
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mortons stork posted:That is not an argument in favour of your position. Entertainment, yes, even vices, should not be the exclusive prerogative of people making above average salaries. Fine. But then people should not complain about not having money if they spend it in entertainment and vices, since no one is forcing them to do that and they're not primary needs  We can argue all day about how salaries should be WAY higher than they are, and I'd be in full agreement, but if you have limited resources it's your duty to use them wisely (you can get entertainment for cheap but it's not "good enough" for many people - many don't want Netflix but are happy to go to the cinema every month and pay a higher price for a lot less hours of entertainment, heck that goes even for vices: roll your own cigarettes for 10/week rather than buying a 5 pack every day, or buy a 1,5-2 beer at the store rather than paying 5-6 in a pub), and if you don't, complaining about it doesn't fill me with warm fuzzy feelings of "awwww so sorry for you" TorakFade fucked around with this message at 09:24 on Mar 29, 2020 |
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Mar 29, 2020 09:10
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People spending money is the way the economy runs. People need to be socialised into spending as much money as is possible, even if it is "beyond their means" because if they don't the whole castle of card collapses, as you're seeing right this goddamn second, in this economy that has zero loving safety buffers anywhere. It's not just the poors who have no savings. It is, like, all the goddamn companies, and we all know: when we shutter them for the pandemic, most of them aren't opening up again. And those actors actually have the theoretical power to save some money for emergencies, as opposed to some rando living hand to mouth and enduring a 2h+ per day commute just so he can afford more than a hole dug in the apartment complex basement and converted into a 800/month studio by some vulture fucker. It's not poor people's fault for wanting entertainment, or things, or spending money in any way you don't approve, which by the way you don't get to dictate. You get a constant barrage everyday of advertising aimed at making you spend every single loving penny you have, and society collectively shits on you for not having enough money to buy even more. And now it turns around and shits on you for not having saved the money that they wanted you to spend, or for not having spent money the "right" way. There's just no way to win. Cornuti e mazziati in ogni caso. So how about you find a different target for your anger, rather than people with 0 power? mortons stork fucked around with this message at 09:39 on Mar 29, 2020 |
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Mar 29, 2020 09:37
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mortons stork posted:People need to be socialised into spending as much money as is possible, even if it is "beyond their means" because if they don't the whole castle of card collapses sure I don't get to "dictate" how people spend their money, and at the same time no one gets to dictate how I spend or don't spend mine. There is society pressure to spend? Well too bad if you fall for it and spend every last penny, then get screwed when it turns out that society isn't going to go out of its way to help you (which was pretty obvious from the start). Everyone is free to do whatever they want as long as it's legal... And then has to live with the consequences of it. This is not new or something brought forth by capitalism, see https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ant_and_the_Grasshopper , but sometimes it seems people want to live however they want without having to answer for it... I also want a nice new car, but can't afford it, and I am not willing to go into debt for 10 years to buy one. Maybe I am the stupid one here, but right now I am also the one that still has savings and isn't worried about what will I eat in the next few weeks/months. I am not angry at all, I just realize that in this system we are not "entitled" to anything beyond the empty promises of politicians, but reality is a far different beast  it's people and companies that haven't been saving money that are panicking and getting angry when they realize the hard way that what they thought they were entitled to, is not actually guaranteed at all.
TorakFade fucked around with this message at 10:09 on Mar 29, 2020 |
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Mar 29, 2020 10:05
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I dunno, if this was so dire i would have seen people looting the markets well before this in the red areas like Veneto, where a good chunk of workers are farm seasonals and surely don't get a fancy paycheck. The article posted by Torak was the first example I've seen so I feel like this is a social rather than economical issue. Also stop dogpiling him/her :/ I've seen/interacting with a good chunk of people daily clamoring about their paychecks being barely enough while not batting an eye buying nerd junk and latest gen iphones/huawei kit. If you consider "normal" being up to your eyeball in debt to look cool, it's all on you and you should loving cut down on all non-essentials instead of doing a mob to loot stores. SlowBloke fucked around with this message at 10:25 on Mar 29, 2020 |
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Mar 29, 2020 10:19
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Just a heads up, but the logical conclusion of that train of logic is a literal massacre. Shoulda had some personal responsibility not to be paid like a pleb in preparation of the global pandemic eh? Also, you don't get to claim that people are 'falling' for societal pressure to consume. Consumerism is the literal basis of our society. Frugality is a heavily discouraged trait. People aren't 'falling' for consumerism, they are making society work as it is intended. Which is why you can't then make the inconsistent claim that they should actually have done the literal opposite of what every force in society tells them to. That is not how human beings are socialised to function, and the stronger the societal pressures the less tenable your argument is. Now consider: pressure is so strong, both in a structural economic and social sense, that loving businesses, the one actor with substantial power in capitalism, have no safety buffers. That is simply a result of how society is made to work. You can argue that with the bailout should come a reform of how we think in terms of consumption goods, production decisions and enterprise management. You can not argue that people should be left to the wolves for making the E: who's dogpiling? I'm having a conversation, there's literally only me and they.
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Mar 29, 2020 10:25
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mortons stork posted:Just a heads up, but the logical conclusion of that train of logic is a literal massacre. Shoulda had some personal responsibility not to be paid like a pleb in preparation of the global pandemic eh? I feel like this is a generational issue, if i ask my grandpa or my dad if buying someting rateized is ok(if you don't have enough cash to paid it in full) they would look at me like if i came from mars, same about getting credit cards to spread debt on them and such. I've never used one until six or so years ago(and its a rechargeable one, not able to raze my bank account) and i am fully aware on how much money I've burned on junk with that, be it steam/gog/whatever junk games or amazon tinker toys but never more than what i've earned MONTHLY. Older generations never felt like having one, running on wire transfers or credit checks or debit cards without issue and those don't let you give others more than what you have. Patronizing people is bad yes, but spending more than you earn is something that we imported from the states and seems to have gotten into us very recently. E: you are not dogpiling(being a single poster), yesterday other posters started to do some zero value posting/moralizing after torak posted about cutting smokes and such and i'm not terribly fond of it. Non butta un'aria buona e siamo tutti con i nervi a fior di pelle, stare a bastonare Torak per un commento relativamente innocente mi sta sul cazzo, in particolare dopo il probe che mi son beccato nel thread eurozona SlowBloke fucked around with this message at 10:40 on Mar 29, 2020 |
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Mar 29, 2020 10:31
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It's an intersectional issue. Wealth and income inequality meets consumer culture, perpetuated by advertising and compounded just-in-time production and decades of stagnant growth of salaries. You get a social stratus that can weather any storm pretty much any storm without eroding its social position while the vast, vast majority is operating on margins so thin that the tiniest external shock can cause a cascade failure, let alone a global pandemic forcing the country into lockdown. And the thing is, it is clearly a distributional issue: there is more than enough to go around. It just doesn't seem to find its way to those who need it. E: I should also add that the previous generations hadn't had their linguistic, conceptual etc horizons completely defined by capitalism to the point anything different was utterly unimaginable. That slow erosion of the world outside capitalist realism is very much a product of the last 30 years. mortons stork fucked around with this message at 10:46 on Mar 29, 2020 |
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Mar 29, 2020 10:39
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mortons stork posted:It's an intersectional issue. Wealth and income inequality meets consumer culture, perpetuated by advertising and compounded just-in-time production and decades of stagnant growth of salaries. You get a social stratus that can weather any storm pretty much any storm without eroding its social position while the vast, vast majority is operating on margins so thin that the tiniest external shock can cause a cascade failure, let alone a global pandemic forcing the country into lockdown. I know that I'm biased but I'm seeing a lot of people stuck in their ways, like farmers that want to sell everything on their roadside shack and being paid cash only and not getting any sales, when they could make a small web shop, get money directly on their bank account(even if they would have to declare their earnings) and move all their produce easily. Plenty of examples. If you deliberately limit your earnings options it's a bit of your fault for getting lower earnings. Yes, all national contracts have their monthly wages stuck in the eighties but isn't that a bit on the unions backs, being happy to get some joke number from confindustria and proudly boasting about their HARD WORK while being carried around in maybachs at montecitorio every year and getting rolex under the table for not "rocking the boat"? There is a lot of human fault rather than the "system". It's poo poo all around but waving the "everything is hosed man" card hides some responsability. E: Yeah, I can see that my generation and the other after me are more keen on throwing all their money around without having any sort of buffer while older generations will save and spend only a limited amount. SlowBloke fucked around with this message at 11:25 on Mar 29, 2020 |
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Mar 29, 2020 10:47
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That is still the same problematic mentality that brought us here though. Like, there is nothing wrong in principle with farmers squeezing extra from a web shop, but the broader picture is a system built with no safeguards when poo poo goes wrong. That extra bit of income does not insure you from external shocks of any significance. Public infrastructure does. To me it seems like an extension of those arguing what if your job doesn't pay enough you should get one more. Yes, that will help in the short term, but it doesn't solve the roots of the issue. You are still extremely precarious, one shock away from disaster. And the world tends to present you with lots of shocks. The problem remains of an arrangement with no safety margins. And when it comes to assigning responsibility for that, then it isn't your average joe schmoe spending on cigarettes and then having no savings for the pandemic who caused the collapse.
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Mar 29, 2020 10:56
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How many years of cutting out 200 euros of cigarettes and booze would i have to cut out to save up 6 months of living expenses, just curious? 3 to 5 years? The issue might not be +/- 200 euros
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Mar 29, 2020 13:13
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I apologize on behalf of my government, Italian and Spanish goons. They are ideologically committed neoliberals, and they lust for our suffering.
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Mar 29, 2020 14:43
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Orange Devil posted:I apologize on behalf of my government, Italian and Spanish goons. They are ideologically committed neoliberals, and they lust for our suffering. Shame it was a video call, if it was an in-person meet some chairs might have hit the uppity bastard.
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Mar 29, 2020 14:49
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