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“Gli inglesi, gente che andava nuda a caccia di marmotte quando noi già s'accoltellava un Giulio Cesare.” Fascisti su Marte, 2006 (which traslates into: “the British, people hunting marmots naked, while we were already assassinating a guy named Julius Caesar”. It applies to most other nationalities!) Welcome to the long acclaimed Italian Politics Megathread! What, Germans and French are allowed to have their own thread, we want one too! There’s a lot of juicy stuff happening within our borders which ranges from the “interesting” to the “wait, what, is this a joke?” - European Elections are around the corner and there’s going to be a lot of content worth reposting. As I already explained in the post I wrote after our elections in 2018… we’ll let’s try to recap how this country works. Brief history Well, it’s hard to be brief, but I’ll try. Let’s skip the populations we had pre-Roman times: in 753 BC Rome is founded. It ends up inventing the term “republic” and then turns into an empire whose boundaries grew gradually until it circled the totality of the Mediterranean Sea. Like Greek philosophists laid the foundation of philosophy, Roman bureaucrats laid the foundation of how a country should be run, regarding expansion, cultural integration, military, urbanistic planning, social castes, the relationship between religion and state and so on. This left a huge legacy, because most of the wealth the Empire drew from its provinces ended up being spent mostly in the easily-reachable lands around Rome - basically, the whole Italian Peninsula (Alps and the sea were quite the obstacle, even if the Roman Empire reached Britain too). This legacy still lives in our culture today, because Rome is still standing and many of the symbols of progress Romans implemented are still visible today. But the Empire fell in 395 AD, ravaged by civil wars. The Empire was getting too hard to control and bad governance made it easy to barbarian tribes to destroy any sovereignty the Empire had over its citizens. From this point in history, until 1875, Italy was a collection of different states, ranging from “as big as a town” to “as big as half the country”. It starts as the smoldering remains of the Holy Roman Empire, States that were often in competition for maritime trading, manufacturing and art. What’s important is that despite not being a single country, Italy had already some kind of cultural and territorial identity. Comedy ensues when part of the population wants to stop being a colony of other empires, while other colonies are happy of their current situation. Well, it’s more complex than this, but after 60 years of political wrestling with all the empires owning some of our land, and political wrestling with the Italian population itself, we somehow become a monarchy. This is a key point in our modern history, because it was not a transformation that was equally desidered or equally received between all regions. Then we turn into a fascist state after WW1, we do our tried and true team-switch trick during WW2, and after the war, the temporary government indicts a referendum where the population is asked if they want to become a republic or go back to a monarchy. 54% of the population voted for “Republic”. It boggles my mind every time I think about this, there has been a voting where a country had to choose between becoming a republic or a monarchy. Now, my opinion is that if 46% of the population votes for a Monarchy, it means a huge minority of the population is happy in delegating totally the state affairs to a ruling class. What happens next is that we become a Parliamentary Republic, and from the 50s to the 90s the parliament is completely controlled by our de-facto aristocracy, Democrazia Cristiana. Scandal after scandal, the terrible governance of that ruling class is exposed in a series of highly debated trials, and the Mani Pulite investigation ends up destroying t. That’s when Berlusconi entered the scene. But that man had his 20 years of fame, now it’s time to discuss the new arrivals. Government, Parliament and Justice Italy is a Parliamentary Republic, sporting about 66 million people and only God knows how many of us are abroad. The main actors in our state system are… The President of the Italian Republic Hail to the President, baby. Unlike the US President, he’s just a scales-balancing figure, which makes this role way more important than it seems. Constitution states that any citizen who is fifty or older on election day and enjoys civil and political rights can be elected president, and there’s no term limit. He is elected, under secret ballot by the Parliament, and the negotiations preceding its nomination and election have often crippled unspoken alliances. It is a role intended to be for a reliable, balanced, wise and proven statesman.  Position currently held by Sergio Mattarella (77). This is the only time I won’t be dismissive or ironic, because the man sports an impressive pedigree and is considered, as usual for the role, one of the few competent and reasonable political figures in our state (I’d also add that it’s easier to be a wise and liked politician when you don’t have to answer to a political campaign). He entered politics after the assassination of his brother in 1980. His article on Wikipedia is worth a read to get a bearing on why I said before that the politicians under Democrazia Cristiana were the aristocrats of their time. The Government Now it’s time for the meme-worthy guys spearheading our venture into this brave new fascist world. Our government exercises the executive power. It offers the most important and exposed political position: the Prime Minister, which oversees the activities of the Council of Ministries. Each Minister is an office who proposes laws regarding its specific domain of activity. We have a Ministry of Internal Affairs, a Ministry of Economic Development, a Ministry of External Affairs, and so on.  Our current Prime Minister. Giuseppe Conte (54). The noteworthy thing about this man is that he...well… “fell” into the PM position. Not by complete chance, but by circumstances. You see, he’s a political nobody. He was a Professor of Private Law before entering office, but he has ZERO pedigree, previous involvements with politics or management. Problem is, after the 2018 general elections, it was clear there would have been no way to form a coalition. Political wrestling ensued, and the only way for a government to form was to have a nobody, unknown and unaffiliated, enter the office. This guy was in the right waiting list. Under him, we have, for the first time in our history, two Vice Prime Ministers.  Matteo Salvini (45), secretary of Lega, here shown in one of his latest tweets, eating nutella. Known for his successful renovation of the Lega Nord party, now simply called Lega, for his aggressively populistic public relationship strategy (he even tweeted after-sex photos), and for being the personification of current Italian xenophoby. Currently our Minister of Internal Affairs as well.  Luigi Di Maio (32), “political leader” of M5S. Known for being a drink seller at the San Paolo Stadium in Napoli. Currently our Minister of Economic Development and Minister of Social Politics and Employment. The Parliament  Where our law proposals are discussed and voted. It is split into two chambers, the “senators” and the “deputies”. When it works as intended, a law is discussed, is eventually rejected or accepted, modified, its modifications are modified, and so on. When it works as intended. And finally, the other important entities which have no know clowns at their forefront: The Judiciary of Italy, which exercises the judiciary power. The High Council of the Judiciary, Which governs the Judiciary The Costitutional Court, Which analyzes laws, both in proposed and accepted form, and has the power to make them null and void if they’re ruled as not compliant with the Constitution. -- Out of time, I've got to stop here: I wanted to be brief and I failed. Next up: election system, current critical situations and balance of power, more dramatis personae. Feel free to ask whatever you're curious about, even outside the political sphere. Here in Italy, noone accepts the fact that mostly everything is political, but it actually is. -- EDIT: I'll be adding links to insightful posts here. Government system, current political balance Statuto speciale regions What is ILVA? Char fucked around with this message at 21:52 on Jan 3, 2019 |
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Jan 2, 2019 22:20
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I'm happy for Italians. 
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Jan 3, 2019 11:28
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Love Italy but am confused by it. Please post more about the batshit electoral system and my favorite region (Liguria)
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Jan 3, 2019 11:57
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Second part. This is harder than I thought, I'm afraid it's a bit incoherent, but as I said before, feel free to ask. Onwards! How we choose our leaders Our government term is 5 years. We vote under a mixed system, where, for each of the two Chambers, we citizens are asked to express a preference. Roughly one third of the Chamber composition is decided on national vote counts, while the other two thirds are decided based on local voting. “Local voting” means each voting station is grouped with others, on territorial basis: each party is supposed to officially register a list of people related to these groups, and the more votes a party gets in a specific group, the more people from the associated list enter the Parliament. The voter is not allowed to cast a vote to a specific person in this list, nor is allowed to cast a vote that gives national preference to a party and local preference to another one. A couple of noteworthy facts: this is the fourth electoral system we’re seeing in the span of 25 years, three of which we’ve actually used, and the third one was arguably the downfall of the Renzi administration. It should be evident how the voting system reflects the territorial fragmentation of the country. It doesn’t look like we’re actually voting for a specific government because it’s supposed to be this way: after the elections, we know only how many seats each party has in both Chambers of the Parliament, but given the nature of the institution - the Parliament accepts or rejects law proposals - it would be impossible to form a government which is not in accordance with its majority. Once a new Parliament is formed, the President has to discuss with every party which entered its proposals for a new government, and eventually offers the Prime Minister position to whoever managed to propose a government whose political views and consequential law proposals won’t be shot down, hopefully, for its 5 years of term. It is therefore not unusual to see shifts in power during a single term, and a partial renovation of a government before going to new elections. This happened recently, for instance, with the Monti and Gentiloni administrations. Currently, this is how the Parliament is composed. Deputies  Majority (352)
Lega (125) Mixed (7) Opposition (277)
FI (105) FdI (32) Mixed (15) LeU (14)  Majority (167)
Lega (58) Mixed (6) Opposition (153)
PD (52) FdI (18) Mixed (7) Autonomies (8) (Remember, the Parliament votes laws, so the government needs to be able to secure a majority - look at the numbers again!) Main actors  Movimento 5 Stelle, the yellow dots. Network, 1976 posted:So, I want you to get up now. I want all of you to get up out of your chairs. I want you to get up right now and go to the window. Open it, and stick your head out, and yell: I'M AS MAD AS HELL, AND I'M NOT GOING TO TAKE THIS ANYMORE! In 2013, M5S enters the fray. Built on the growing malcontent of the financial crisis of 2008, the terrible Berlusconi administration, and the reparations applied by the Monti government, it finally got traction as the relationship of trust between the population and the two major parties of that time reached a breaking point. It was, supposedly, bottom-up democratic movement, turned out to be propaganda fuel for a private company. Along the way, it got increasingly clear there was no real vision behind the project - no POLITICAL vision, I mean - and it became truth as soon as some of their representatives managed to become mayor in major cities. Due to its nature, it has no clear political identity: it had to be a sponge for every single episode of malcontent to gain momentum, and it couldn’t let go anything to be where it is now. It is also embarrassingly clear how much of the hidden decision makers of the party hold contempt towards certain ideas they’ve used to campaign. In 2019, it is not clear what future has in store for M5S, because despite being this old, it still didn’t grow its own ruling class, nor has made any effort to fix in stone, in both an overt and covert manner, what is the core political vision of the party. As things are right now, it tries to show a socialist face but is looking more like a band of incompetent and ignorant people. Not one single proposal from their camp actually tackled any issue Italy has right now, and it is unknown how long the voters will accept this.  Lega, the green dots. Matteo Salvini, 2017 posted:Putin? I said it more than once, I have high regards for him, both as a man and as a political leader. Once known as Lega Nord, this party was born in 1989 as a consequence of the fusing of six different independentist movements. It started as a separatist/federalist party, acting with the sole regards of the northern regions of Italy. It usually had huge success within parts of said regions, because it clearly acted with a FYGM policy towards the rest of the country. Then Berlusconi turned it into his pet party, as they were natural allies - the party lost its separatist soul, then faded into nothingness until Matteo Salvini took its helm. Matteo Salvini, once a representative of the self defined communist section of Lega Nord (I’m not joking), managed to find the right rhetoric to conquer Italian hearts. Taking a page from the M5S propaganda machine, but actually using competent spin doctors and politicians from what actually used to be a real party, he appeared as the everyman who has clear and easy to understand views of the current problems, values of mutual support (of fellow Italians only), goals and will to solve them - slaughtering every sacred cow is in his way. This is a very neutral description of his poltical platform. Under the surface, he’s appealing to the latent ur-fascism our country still has, as he’s shown very often he appreciates casual/pseudo/literal fascists groups. Through a careful spinning of social rethorics - for instance, crime is an all time low in Italy, yet most Italians fear whatever’s outside their homes, because the winning rhetoric is that there’s too many migrants out there - he’s offered another convenient, albeit more radical, comfortable escape route for those who expressed the malcontent I’ve described in the M5S paragraph. In 2019, they can only go up.  Forza Italia, the blue dots. Silvio Berlusconi, 2011 posted:It doesn’t look like to me Italy is going through a crisis. It is a rich country, demand isn’t lower, planes are always overbooked and the restaurants are full. In 2019, Lega is going to finish its meal and cannibalize this dying party.  Partito Democratico, the orange dots. Matteo Renzi, multiple times between 2015 and 2016, referring to the 2016 Referendum (and "No" won). posted:If NO wins, I’ll abandon any political activity. Has been the home of many views, despite its clear initial mission, and never managed to make sure there’s a functional majority within itself. The only left “former” party which has really a ruling class and which tried to grow a new generation of statesmen, has managed to fail to meet the expectations of most of Italian population after a shocking 40% preference at the European Elections of 2014, by catering (or appearing to cater) too much towards the middle class, enterpreneurs and finance. Is currently undergoing a strong identity crisis because Matteo Renzi cannot accept Italy rejected him, and noone else has the guts or skill to exert any power to answer to the centreleft wing issues of contemporary times. In 2019, they’ll either split into different parties and try to keep momentum, wait for an opportunity to recover centre-left voters lost to M5S, or die into nothingness. You saw there's a "Mixed" group, there's a FdI (which stands for "Fratelli D'Italia") group and a LeU (which stands for "Liberi ed Uniti") group? I'll go into their detail later, becuase they're minor actors... but still an important part of our political landscape. I'll try to make a more memeworty "dramatis personae", as we've got plenty of silly material actually. Current balance of power Built upon a compromise between two different parties, the “Contratto di Governo”, in which both M5S and Lega specified which goals this government would have to reach, this government has the uncanny ability of looking both fragile and robust at the same time. Their bigger strength ir propaganda. Most of Italy didn’t have the cultural means to understand what globalization was in 2000, and still is struggling in accepting it in 2019. As a population, we have a very weak point in our inability to accept what’s not part of the narrative we’ve grown to live in, and this is the exact weak spot that M5S and Lega managed to target. The robustness this government shows is the promise of a scapegoat for all of our problems. At the same time, the fragility it shows is tied to this: lacking any shared political vision, the two parties at the command are trying to eat each other. Add the fact that M5S has, as I said before, no political culture or legacy in its ranks: the chance of making critical mistakes, for both the country and the party, is getting higher as both parties are forced to keep up with their promises. There is virtually no opposition: despite the many mistakes this government is making, there’s noone to capitalize on that, because noone else has yet understood how’s the best way to speak to Italians in these specific years. Our relationship with Europe is pretty weak, as we’re simply banking on being too big to fail, and our lack of political credibility makes it impossible to create any significant dialogue with the rest of the members. A mirror of this is our relationships with the rest of the world, where we have little negotiation whatsoever. Feel free to ask for examples. Currently, our negotiation power is so weak that we’ve got to accept any deal either finance or industry forces onto us. Critical issues looming We have the historic issues of public debt, corruption, inequality, stark difference in development between the north and the south of Italy, and a lack of common national values. Currently, we’re having to deal with the consequences of such historical issues: unemployment, inability to offer a single national political vision, and the degradation of culture and morals. European Elections are on the horizon, the propaganda machine is going to be in full force less than a month from now. Once again: if you have specific questions,  I'll try to maintain the thread as new , discussion-worthy stuff comes out. To the other Italians: ho cercato di mantenermi più neutro possibile. Se sono sembrato troppo o troppo poco generoso, è perché per dovere di divulgazione ho preferito presentare le cose a tal maniera. Char fucked around with this message at 17:19 on Jan 3, 2019 |
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Jan 3, 2019 13:09
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Char posted:
It's actually 1861 the year when the Kingdom of Italy was founded, and 1870 when the capital was moved to Rome after the conquest of the Papal State, but other than those mistakes good op.
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Jan 3, 2019 13:31
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So, uh, what the hell is going on in Italy and how bad is it likely to get? Like, just in general, I mean.
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Jan 3, 2019 13:34
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Wengy posted:Love Italy but am confused by it. Please post more about the batshit electoral system and my favorite region (Liguria) It's not THAT batshit, imho. The fact we had 3 (and a failed proposal) different systems in 25 years, on the other hand... Regarding Liguria, I don't know if other italgoons are from there, I'll let them answer first - I'm from Tuscany. I Love Annie May posted:It's actually 1861 the year when the Kingdom of Italy was founded, and 1870 when the capital was moved to Rome after the conquest of the Papal State, but other than those mistakes good op. Welp. It's one of the parts of our history I remember the worst. I don't know why I was remembering 1875, and I missed a lot of doublechecking. Sorry for the mistake! Vincent Van Goatse posted:So, uh, what the hell is going on in Italy and how bad is it likely to get? Like, just in general, I mean. I need a narrower definition of "what the hell". I mean, there's a lot of weird social phenomena going on right now: fascism has its roots, anti-immigration sentiments have a lot in common with fascism roots but shouldn't be mistaken for the exact sovrapposition of two different phenomena; the lack of goals to steer the country towards is another different issue. How bad is it likely to get: it is already pretty bad if you live in the unluckiest parts of the country, you'll probably be ok if you live around Milan. You see, as I said in the EU thread, something that is really hard to grasp regarding Italy is that, unlike most unifications in history, ours wasn't a wholly felt need. Even nowadays, Giuseppe Garibaldi, the mastermind behind the military campaign that made it possible to unify Italy, is less revered than Mussolini, for instance. Let me phrase it differently: if you ask a random Italian this specific question, "did the efforts of Garibaldi make Italy a better place", he'll probably have to think about the answer. And maybe he won't answer at all. After the fragmentation of the Roman Empire, 1400 years of competition, rivarly or mild warfare between neighbouring cities created strong boundaries in our culture: the result is that the average Italian mind has, in my opinion, a more stratified perception of ingroups and outgroups than the average western. After turning into a single country, no Italian government except for the fascist regime tried to give the whole population a foundation of values, ideals, minimum guaranteed services, and so on. Before globalization, the stratified vision of groups was easy to decipher: If you're from my street, you're a friend. If you're from a different part of town, you're a rival. If you're from the outskirts, you're an ignorant peasant who should pay the taxes to benefit my services. If you're from a nearby town, you're my economic competitor. If you're from another region, you're a foreigner, which means I'll have to refer to the notorious stereotypes regarding your region to communicate with you. If you're from another country, well, you're a foreigner as well, but you don't even speak my language and your stereotypes are even broader, and built on past history your country has with mine. (oh, and if you're from Pisa... well. You know. Everywhere in the world, some expat or tourist has written somewhere "Pisa Merda". It's one of our oldest proto-meme.) Then globalization hits and your stratified vision of outgroups is outdated, because there's this huge void: foreigners whose history you know nothing about that end up living in your street. Everything in your model is messed up, friends end up going abroad, the outskirts become the cradle of the new middle class, your economic competitors shut down and you start wondering if you're next on the chopping block, you name it. It's a bit roundabout way to say that the average Italian still has a mindset where the foreigner is everyone born outside your 20km radius of existance, and no government managed to alter, much less break, this way of thinking. Even worse, some governments even colluded with it: our role in the European economy until the early '90s was providing cheap manifacturing. Our most used short term monetary strategy was constantly de-valuing the Lira Italiana becuase if it got too strong we'd stop being cheap to other countries. Never try to become bigger and never try to unify with your allies. Anyone who has a different mindset is the byproduct of either the efforts of individuals who wanted to show their children the outside world, or the victim of globalization. I don't think I have answered your question, but I think I've outlined the frames of which "bad" could go "worse". Char fucked around with this message at 17:17 on Jan 3, 2019 |
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Jan 3, 2019 14:12
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Char posted:I don't think I have answered your question, but I think I've outlined better the frames of which "bad" could go "worse". No, that actually answers my question pretty well.
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Jan 3, 2019 14:34
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Char posted:After turning into a single country, no Italian government except for the fascist regime tried to give the whole population a foundation of values, ideals, minimum guaranteed services, and so on. Before globalization, the stratified vision of groups was easy to decipher: This is very interesting and it actually kind of sort of clarifies something I’ve always found extremely baffling and troubling, namely the fact that the Italian football authorities seem to punish “regional discrimination” more harshly than actual racism. Apart from the FIGC probably being a bunch of racists themselves, this could also be viewed as a reaction to a perceived lack of homogeneity and social cohesion in a country that doesn’t really want to be a country, so a northerner chanting something offensive about dirty terroni can come to be viewed as a worse threat than a football fan who throws a banana peel at a black player. Supremely weird and interesting. How does the failure of an emotional integration of the country square with the fact that literally every village, town and city has a Via Garibaldi and a Piazza Garibaldi, though? And are there significant differences as to how Garibaldi and Cavour, the other main architect of unification, are perceived? Like, I’d assume the Lega hates Garibaldi because they (secretly?) consider the creation of a unified Italy that includes all those drat southerners a mistake, right? But when I visited Apulia last summer I didn’t get the impression that he was particularly well liked in the south either. Finally, how the gently caress is your pizza always so loving good? There’s not a single restaurant here in my lovely Swiss hometown that serves actual Italian pizza, it's all disgusting cheesified poo poo 
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Jan 3, 2019 15:07
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Char posted:Critical issues looming Global warming seems to be missing from that critical issues list? I'm not surprised that M5S/Lega would be ignoring it, but is an out of context problem for the entire Italian political system?
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Jan 3, 2019 16:33
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I'll add a little tidbit that Char could add to the op if he want, a good chunk of Italians doesn't have any loving idea about some of the lesser known regions! There are five regions that had special treatment since quite a bit. They have been running under a special set of rules and rights ("statuto speciale") and this was due to some very special historical reasons (Sicily and Sardinia: heavy government issues, Valle d'Aosta and Trentino Alto Adige: border country with stronger feelings for France/Austria than Italy, Friuli Venezia Giulia:cold war fears with Tito). This special treatment meant that budgets were more flexible and there were more rules that could be overriden from the central government diktats(until the federalism reform pushed by LN/FI, only these five regions could tell Rome to go gently caress themselves for issues like schools or small government). Right now with the federalism reform the five special regions have still more leeway than average but they are more in line with the rest. I hail from F.V.G. (which shouldn't never be shortened to Friuli as some olds could take offence), if you want a anecdote this is the sole region that suffered multiple natural(and manmade) disasters but always managed to rebuild itself in a quick and orderly fashion.
SlowBloke fucked around with this message at 17:30 on Jan 3, 2019 |
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Jan 3, 2019 17:02
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Ornedan posted:Global warming seems to be missing from that critical issues list? I'm not surprised that M5S/Lega would be ignoring it, but is an out of context problem for the entire Italian political system? Oh sure is a problem and this gives me another tidbit to share: Political representation of eco-enviromentalism is a sorta of injoke, our green parties are as close/interested into the enviroment as PETA is to animal healthcare. Which in case you were wondering, they'll search for the most recently heard/shown/twitted item and scream for that thing to be destroyed/made forbidden.Not because it's harmful but because it makes them feel better. Due to this most people will happily laugh to most green parties request/referendums. This doesn't mean that people won't be selfish and drive old cars when bike will suffice but bigger scale issues? We are aware about it and we are aware that we cannot do poo poo about it(our heavy industry is pretty much gone so pollution is mostly from old prod sites crumbling down rather than from being used and waste disposal sites containers, legal or not, breaking up). I personally consider green parties to blame for most of our resource/electical production shortcomings(the after chernobyl terror campaign to close down all of four sites, the newest just being done building so we wasted lots of cash to get zero watts produced from Caorso and just waste products to handle, meant that we increased oil usage to handle the missing quota from nuclear and to top it up destroy any skill set and knowhow in the sector that was top in the world at the time) so don't expect love for them from me SlowBloke fucked around with this message at 17:33 on Jan 3, 2019 |
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Jan 3, 2019 17:16
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I visited the city of Taranto last summer and read up on its history on Wikipedia and it just blew my loving mind that this level of pollution and environmental destruction was allowed to happen. And of course the corporation that owned all the polluting steel plants and the like - ILVA - and was criminally lax in handling environmental protection measures leading to thousands of deaths hails from the north. When I read about these stats and saw the dilapidated old town I sort of understood for the first time why a person from the south might hate the rich northerners.
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Jan 3, 2019 19:40
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Most big industrial sites in the south were made in a futile attempt into "progressing" the south, lots of factories with no naval or railway access built just to fill an idiotic quota. Something that boggles the mind is the tenacity that the workers of those hellpits are showing clinging into their workplaces even if they are poisoning themselves and their county. We have a metalworks plant here that everybody wants gone, the municipality will use as a campaign trail promise each time(to close it) and is always in the red but the few workers and the unions will cry foul if the site closes even temporarily
SlowBloke fucked around with this message at 20:14 on Jan 3, 2019 |
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Jan 3, 2019 19:55
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Joining on p1 What's Berlusconi up to these days?
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Jan 3, 2019 20:05
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Lord Stimperor posted:What's Berlusconi up to these days? Probably banging underage girls because what else can he do to pass the time until his ineligibility expires and he gets to reclaim the throne of Italy once more?
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Jan 3, 2019 20:41
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Wengy posted:I visited the city of Taranto last summer and read up on its history on Wikipedia and it just blew my loving mind that this level of pollution and environmental destruction was allowed to happen. And of course the corporation that owned all the polluting steel plants and the like - ILVA - and was criminally lax in handling environmental protection measures leading to thousands of deaths hails from the north. When I read about these stats and saw the dilapidated old town I sort of understood for the first time why a person from the south might hate the rich northerners. I'm actually from the place, unuckily, and can shed some light into what went on with ILVA. Basically, it was an off-site steel plant of a giant state-owned steel corp (Italsider) which set up shop a long while ago and made Taranto one of the richest industrial cities in the South. Now, this being giant heavy industry, it fostered a lot of growth for supporting industries as well, so the city, which also was gifted with a fairly important commercial harbor, also became host to petroleum refineries, a regional hub for the energy which was needed to fuel the giant plant which is as large as the entire city itself basically. Pollution doesn't really come into the picture because we're talking periods of time where nobody gives a gently caress, plus everyone is getting rich and working class people in Taranto are actually among the most well off in the South, to the point where there is significant migration from neighbouring regions. Over time concerns over pollution start to grow in the North, so Italsider slowly shuts down its plants in Northern Italy and brings the blast furnaces down to Taranto, where nobody still gives a gently caress about the environment. The end result is that, by the 90s, Taranto has the largest steel plant in Europe. Fast forward a bit, the entire corp is sold for a pittance to political cronies in the era of privatization. The industrial city was already declining but here it just nosedives, the private management stops buying their supplies from the neighbouring plants, instead privileging other sources they could secure better deals with. Supporting industries just loving die, and Taranto is left with the horrifying pollution of the steel plant and the refineries. Plus the private owners start crushing the trade unions until only one is left, one that is actually fostered and organized by the company itself. Now being ILVA-employed pays only a little more than low-skill job anywhere else on the planet. At the same time, the plant owners use the fact that they employ some 12k people to successfully lobby the weak devolved regional governments to turn a blind eye on the pollution and on the lack of measures being taken to address it, despite being contractually obliged basically since the sale to install filters and underground coke storage and such. This continues, funnily enough, not only under the insanely corrupt right wing regional governments but also under the two terms of ecologist party government that came afterwards. Anytime ILVA is threatened with sanctions for its pollution, it just waves its 12k employed 'at risk' of losing their jobs, has its company-sponsored union organize a march through the center, and authorities relent. To put into context why the lobbying is so successful, we're talking 'large employer in a 20% structural unemployment rate region." Youth unemployment is around 40%. More recently, the owners of the company were finally arrested for their rampant corruption, and the state briefly took over, on the assumption that it would undertake the production modernizations that ILVA hadn't done, and invest significantly in order to reduce pollution. What actually happened is that the state did none of that, while emitting law decrees that essentially made Taranto into a special production zone where environmental laws do not apply, increasing pollution limits to such levels that even ILVA with its 20+ year old production facilities could run basically undisturbed. Fast forward to our days, the company was auctioned off to another global steel conglomerate, which promised investments into pollution reduction and modernization of facilities, but as a first step laid off 2k employees. Prospects look bleak. The short of it is, Taranto has been failed spectacularly by just about all of the political forces in the country. The 5-star movement won the city in the general election on a platform of shutting down ILVA, and instead got it sold off to a global steel corporation with a not-so-stellar record on employment and got 2k layoffs just off the bat. But the left-wing ecologists didn't do that much better either, and the right, well, was the right. mortons stork fucked around with this message at 21:17 on Jan 3, 2019 |
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Jan 3, 2019 21:03
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Wengy posted:This is very interesting and it actually kind of sort of clarifies something I’ve always found extremely baffling and troubling, namely the fact that the Italian football authorities seem to punish “regional discrimination” more harshly than actual racism. Apart from the FIGC probably being a bunch of racists themselves, this could also be viewed as a reaction to a perceived lack of homogeneity and social cohesion in a country that doesn’t really want to be a country, so a northerner chanting something offensive about dirty terroni can come to be viewed as a worse threat than a football fan who throws a banana peel at a black player. Supremely weird and interesting. 1. I think you're being too optimist. I think it's more of a pragmatic measure: throwing banana peel at black players will rile up a small minority which has no voice and no power. Letting regional discrimination run rampant leads to riots in the streets. 2. While every city has a Piazza/Via Garibaldi, it's hardly ever the most important site in the city, for the already mentioned reasons. Most cities were already well developed when unification happened. He's just a guy in recent Italian history. Cavour... well, I'd be surprised if most people knew the differences between the views between them. It's just parts of history that might or might not have any meaning in the cultural identity of the city. I can assure that the three Italians that answered so far (me, SlowBloke and mortons stork) can confirm that between FVG, Tuscany and Puglia, there's pretty much nothing in common regarding local identities. 3. We have standards to uphold, and what makes good food is one of the few things we Italians all agree on. Also, undying attachment to tradition: pizza was good a couple centuries ago, we skeptically tried to see how it goes when you change the recipe... and it's worse! Sorry progress, but we like our brick ovens. Ornedan posted:Global warming seems to be missing from that critical issues list? I'm not surprised that M5S/Lega would be ignoring it, but is an out of context problem for the entire Italian political system? Let me explain further what SlowBloke said. Italy's renewable energy target for 2020 was effectively met by 2014, and that's arguably because most of our heavy industry is dead. Anything else is is out of our hands, and it takes a good relationship with research and university to move to the forefront of innovations. Our blessing is having a renewable-friendly land, with our rivers, mountain profiles and sun exposition: no government ever has treated research as a priority, therefore we're not innovating in that sector, we're just using what the land provided us. On the other hand, the average Italian has some attachment to his environment, therefore on every single brochure you'll see during campaigning, there's always a footnote saying "pushing ecological policies". It rarely amounts to anything specific. One important note: most of our CO2 production comes from This would need, once again, a more specific analysis, the tl;dr version is that what's realistic, doable and environmentally friendly is "simply" moving towards railroad transportation and insulating our 60-200 years old houses. Something that requires too much planning finesse to be a hot discussion topic. Lord Stimperor posted:Joining on p1 Cat Mattress posted:Probably banging underage girls because what else can he do to pass the time until his ineligibility expires and he gets to reclaim the throne of Italy once more? He's going to be eligible in a couple months! But he lost his grasp on the public. He was the king of TV, but didn't manage to adapt to the existence of social medias (well, he's 83). I think it's very unlikely he'll have any strong presence in the coming years. Char fucked around with this message at 10:10 on Jan 4, 2019 |
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Jan 3, 2019 21:30
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mortons stork posted:I'm actually from the place, unuckily, and can shed some light into what went on with ILVA. Basically, it was an off-site steel plant of a giant state-owned steel corp (Italsider) which set up shop a long while ago and made Taranto one of the richest industrial cities in the South. Now, this being giant heavy industry, it fostered a lot of growth for supporting industries as well, so the city, which also was gifted with a fairly important commercial harbor, also became host to petroleum refineries, a regional hub for the energy which was needed to fuel the giant plant which is as large as the entire city itself basically. Pollution doesn't really come into the picture because we're talking periods of time where nobody gives a gently caress, plus everyone is getting rich and working class people in Taranto are actually among the most well off in the South, to the point where there is significant migration from neighbouring regions. Thank you so much for this brilliant post; it sheds light on many things I observed there and could only read about on Wikipedia and various English-speaking news sources. My visit to Taranto kind of broke my heart, because everyone I encountered was really friendly and the food was awesome, but I just couldn't help but find the place incredibly depressing So much potential there, too!
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Jan 3, 2019 21:43
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It's also really funny in a dark kind of way how the development of polluting industry there made sure that Taranto gets short-shrifted for loving ever on any project of note that involves pollution or environmental damage. It's how we got immediately 'volunteered' to host the regional landfill site, and any future landfill probably, plus the incinerator, and any future incinerator as well. The state energy company needs a larger plant somewhere? Might as well enlarge Taranto! And so on. I'm really glad Italy doesn't maintain nuclear power plants, since beyond the obvious risks of letting Italians build and staff some of the most delicate and dangerous technology in the history of the world, Taranto would 100% percent guaranteed have been selected for hosting the nuclear waste disposal site. When it rains, it pours (dioxine and heavy iron dust) All of the poo poo and none of the benefits, basically. Enjoy dusting off red and grey iron dust from your grandma's gravestone when you visit the cemetery so you can at least read the name and see the picture, shitlord!
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Jan 3, 2019 22:08
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Basically this, then: https://www.courthousenews.com/dirty-steelworks-in-city-of-the-dead-tests-italys-new-rulers-promises/
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Jan 3, 2019 22:27
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quote:“When they come campaigning they talk about reclamation, restoration or closing it. But when they get into power, they don’t remember who you are,” D’Andria said. “Sailors’ promises, as we say here in Taranto.” The endless cycle of Tarantine politics. Truth be told, there is an unspoken law in both city and national politics, and that is 'don't gently caress with the steel mill' They've been talking reclamation, restoration, modernization for 20 years now. They only do that for the elections though.
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Jan 3, 2019 22:37
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mortons stork posted:The endless cycle of Tarantine politics. Truth be told, there is an unspoken law in both city and national politics, and that is 'don't gently caress with the steel mill' Same poo poo different nametag. Our town steelworks foundations are older than Utah was a US state(https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferriera_di_Servola) and this kind of promises have been told before I was even born(and I am older than that worm that is supposed to handle the ministry of labour) EDIT: Char are we enforcing a en-us language restriction on the thread right? I would prefer the thread to not devolve in native language only like the Germany one SlowBloke fucked around with this message at 19:04 on Jan 7, 2019 |
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Jan 3, 2019 22:52
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I'm in favour of English only. We're trying to get out the message of how our incredibly depressing politics can be made understandable to a wider audience, if it's supposed to be the Bar Sport I can just go down the street for that with the added bonus that I can drink heavily there.
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Jan 3, 2019 23:11
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You should at least throw in some Italian swear words and occasionally offer literal translations of memes, it's what works in the Germany thread!
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Jan 3, 2019 23:15
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Wengy posted:You should at least throw in some Italian swear words and occasionally offer literal translations of memes, it's what works in the Germany thread! Yeah, I vote for this. I love learning foreign slang and idioms. EG: "He was so mad he was pissing steam" is a Russian saying, and it's brilliant
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Jan 4, 2019 00:00
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Char posted:[...] This is perhaps a seed of an explanation, but I think it falls a bit short as Germany had a very similar history to Italy yet still ended up with a more or less unified identity. IIRC after the Congress Italy apart from the papal states was divided into three states (Sardinia-Piemont, Two Sicilies and one I can't seem to recall) plus the Veneto region which was under Austrian control. Were these 4 parts were roughly equal in terms of population and economic power? In Germany, Prussia was incredibly dominant and so could push its own cultural identity onto the different part of the empire. Something to that effect would haven been more difficult in Italy, I guess. If those entities even had their own particular identities in the first place. Some of them were pretty much existed due to the whims of the Congress, though Two Sicilies at least had existed in some form or another for a long time.
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Jan 4, 2019 01:31
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Dommolus Magnus posted:This is perhaps a seed of an explanation, but I think it falls a bit short as Germany had a very similar history to Italy yet still ended up with a more or less unified identity. If my history knowledge doesn't fail me two sicilies(and its precursors states) were under foreign occupation for most of its life(Spain if I remember correctly) so distrust/active sabotage of local government was an act of rebellion that never really went away even when it was freed from the spanish occupation(after all the central government was seen as foreign as the previous rulers). Same with the veneto part which switched from being one of the crown jewels of the austrohungarian empire to be just somewhere in italy(most of the industrial parts and city centre in Trieste dates back from austrohungarian era, afterwards pretty much nothing). So there are large swath of land that actively wishes for going back to being either independendant from central rule(always seen to be a distant retard demanding for resources in the mind of the people) or under foreign power control as it was in the good old days. SlowBloke fucked around with this message at 09:51 on Jan 4, 2019 |
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Jan 4, 2019 09:41
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Gort posted:Yeah, I vote for this. I love learning foreign slang and idioms. I'll start since I just got up. "duro come un scalin" - "Hard as a stair step" - Drunk as hell. Duro is informally used in the Trieste dialect to denote being drunk(to the extreme point of being unconscious, rigid and so hard/duro) and stairs have been historically being made from marble/stone so it's super drunk(a good chunk of colloquialisms in Trieste jokes around various state of drunkenness). Another idiom to go back to the previous post about italy being far from cohesive, one of the way to call the police in Trieste è "Puglia", why? Because the first posted gendarms/carabinieri after unification came from there! SlowBloke fucked around with this message at 10:20 on Jan 4, 2019 |
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Jan 4, 2019 10:06
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Heard a stat that Lega's support from 18% to 30% since they've been in power. What's the coalition government's stance on austerity? What are their economic policies like?
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Jan 5, 2019 20:29
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It's true, Lega ran elections with Berlusconi in coalition since the latter hoped to have a junior partner to bolster the ranks for his failing party. Instead Salvini started out at 18%, much higher than berlusconi's 15% or whatever, then combined with the 'neither right nor left (but especially not left)' M5S to form the government and just loving ran the show for the past 6 months. You can see his electoral consent skyrocket, from 18 to like 35%, and his allies are desperately trying to play catch-up, since they've lost like 5% in the meantime and run the risk of being only second best next election. They can't really catch up because they're incompetent jackasses but that's a thing for another day. The policy is a weird frankenstein mishmash. Lega's main platform hook was a 'flat tax,' for all income brackets which Salvini placed at around 15%, and M5S ran on implementing 'citizenship income,' which was depicted in the campaign to be kind of like UBI (up to 780€/month for jobless in exchange for some free work at the municipality) but then was turned into something more similar to Germany's Hartz IV. All of these programs take loving huge amounts of cash, so they went to the EU hat in hand asking to up the annual deficit/GDP to around 2.4%, to which the Commission said lolno, and ultimately ended up being a 2.04%, which was cited as a victory anyway in hopes their electorate is completely mathematically illiterate. The actual implementation of the policies has suffered in turn, 15% has been implemented only for self-employed workers below a certain threshold, while the citizenship income is likely to be a pittance. It is unclear, but it looks like you need like 4 kids to even break over the low 3 figures/month. They capped it all off with a horrible lovely tax pardon for both small and large evaders before 2018 year's end. The gist of it is, each of the coalition parties is about to wreck our public finances for basically 0 gain in hopes of securing enough electoral consent to break off the coalition and run next elections as winner by itself. There is 0 space for infrastructural investments the South desperately needs, they're cutting funds for research, culture and education. mortons stork fucked around with this message at 20:48 on Jan 5, 2019 |
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Jan 5, 2019 20:39
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You are forgetting another public hire freeze which will gently caress up the miur(which was already bleeding) and every public office with the new 100 quota pension customers(which won't see the severance in a long loving time to avoid INPS going bankrupt lol). I think that the first proper shakeup will be due to this(long before the EU crying for blood after failing the spread quota), the schools are already with the staff roster in temp mode since loving decades and with the new daspi or whatever the gently caress they are going to call the unemployment benefit being better than your average school janitor/secretary pay who the gently caress is going to apply?
SlowBloke fucked around with this message at 23:10 on Jan 5, 2019 |
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Jan 5, 2019 23:04
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SlowBloke posted:You are forgetting another public hire freeze which will gently caress up the miur(which was already bleeding) and every public office with the new 100 quota pension customers(which won't see the severance in a long loving time to avoid INPS going bankrupt lol). I think that the first proper shakeup will be due to this(long before the EU crying for blood after failing the spread quota), the schools are already with the staff roster in temp mode since loving decades and with the new daspi or whatever the gently caress they are going to call the unemployment benefit being better than your average school janitor/secretary pay who the gently caress is going to apply? Yeah, like we needed another loving hemorrhage in our public school system, god knows it wasn't banged up enough already. But with the cuts to public schools they're just keeping continuity between this admin and previous ones, so I'm almost not angry about that. What I am unfathomably angry about is the citizenship income, on two levels: on the one hand, we are facing tremendous pushback from the EU for trying to give a handout to the poor and jobless because it might 'threaten our balanced budget', which just signals how badly neoliberal the institution has turned. On the other, the citizenship income is shaping up to be another workfare bullshit which will forever poison the wells for this kind of policy, meaning that in the future, when this inevitably fails, we'll never ever get to discuss something resembling a social programme for the poor. In other news, the lega vice-mayor of Trieste just threw a homeless man's clothes and cover into the trash and made a smug facebook post about 'keeping the city clean'. Luckily he's facing a righteous shitstorm for it, but I just wanted it to be a note on how cartoonishly evil these people are, and how despite that they are the first political force in my country, receiving eager transversal support across society. mortons stork fucked around with this message at 10:52 on Jan 6, 2019 |
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Jan 6, 2019 10:50
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mortons stork posted:Yeah, like we needed another loving hemorrhage in our public school system, god knows it wasn't banged up enough already. But with the cuts to public schools they're just keeping continuity between this admin and previous ones, so I'm almost not angry about that. MIUR(which in case you are wondering is the Ministero per l'Istruzione, Università e Ricerca, our national education ministry) unlocked hirings with the previous admin(I know because I was one of the lucky ones that got caught in the nets), not enough people and mostly researchers(which we can debate all night and day about how much useful they'll be) but it was a start in the right direction. We have a lot of old people that are staying on the job in a stupid attempt of "holding the line" while doing just damage due to being geriatric and wanting to work like in the loving '70(meaning we have paperless flows dictated by law and idiots duplicating everything on paper because they cannot work without it, slowing everything down to a glacial pace) and they need to get sent home to unfuck the system. So IMHO i would have preferred to not have this bloody idiotic superaspi and instead doing a combined early-pension window and new hires(if you have a clinical fear of big government, do a three year long temp contract for crying out loud) campaign which would have been much less bloody on the state coffers. mortons stork posted:In other news, the lega vice-mayor of Trieste just threw a homeless man's clothes and cover into the trash and made a smug facebook post about 'keeping the city clean'. Luckily he's facing a righteous shitstorm for it, but I just wanted it to be a note on how cartoonishly evil these people are, and how despite that they are the first political force in my country, receiving eager transversal support across society. Can I make a very sad note? I didn't know we had a vice mayor from LN.... All I've known in the city council is DiPiazza, the rest might be as well staffed by cardboard cutouts for all they do....  The turboprick removed the post since then as like all LN bastards he has the integrity of a mollusk. Another pearl from FVG https://www.huffingtonpost.it/2019/...ati_a_23634162/ The Monfalcone(GO) security councilor posted a idiotic slur post on FB and is claiming that he didn't came up for the post, just copied from somewhere else(on his loving FB wall). The Mayor is minimizing as "it was a prank lol, he feels very sorry", both of these idiots are LN in case you were wondering. poi checcazzo, non ci caga nessuno per millenni sulla stampa ed in generale il mondo, ora di botto tutti sti parassiti si svegliano a far cazzate su facebook e la regione viene sputtanata come un covo di razzisti? SlowBloke fucked around with this message at 16:44 on Jan 6, 2019 |
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Jan 6, 2019 10:59
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Yeah the ministries need a lot of work to get completely unfucked, but the big problem is that our funds for education and research are so strangled it's nearly impossible to get new blood in. That's why the hiring freeze will keep strangling the ministry, it's not that the olds will be holding the line, it's that we need those loving people out of there but we don't know who will cover their positions. And yeah, these people don't care about the coffers. They hope to get their chips in and then as soon as they feel they have an edge they will upturn the table in hopes of being sole winners. They will rule over the ashes, if necessary. forse vi eravate stancati che l'attenzione fosse tutta su Verona, che è praticamente diventata il Texas da un po'? :risatetristi:
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Jan 6, 2019 16:36
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mortons stork posted:Yeah the ministries need a lot of work to get completely unfucked, but the big problem is that our funds for education and research are so strangled it's nearly impossible to get new blood in. That's why the hiring freeze will keep strangling the ministry, it's not that the olds will be holding the line, it's that we need those loving people out of there but we don't know who will cover their positions. I concur on the pay, the fact that a degree is more important than a decade of service will never fail to make me feel like an idiot as i fail to get any decent role improvement due to the lack of a UNI degree (silly me and the thought that going to work sooner and having a nice CV meant something  ). I am more afraid on the quality of the replacements than filling the quotas, people desperate to work? Plenty. Skilled people willing to work for a pittance? Rather scarce.mortons stork posted:And yeah, these people don't care about the coffers. They hope to get their chips in and then as soon as they feel they have an edge they will upturn the table in hopes of being sole winners. They will rule over the ashes, if necessary. I think we are reaching Trump-grade level of cluelessness, the sole thing that makes the state machine go forward are the public servant that eat poo poo everyday while these fuckers in Rome, in the regional halls and even in the bloody city halls doesn't just do gently caress all but actively sabotage everything. Thankfully/hopefully the damage is not yet final. Beh ma adesso abbiamo la locale armata fino ai denti, ci sentiamo sicuri  Solo in una repubblica delle banane potevamo dare pistole agli ausiliari del traffico...
SlowBloke fucked around with this message at 17:28 on Jan 6, 2019 |
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Jan 6, 2019 17:20
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Content. This week started with: -PD-supported mayors going against the new "Security Law" Lega pushed last fall. A group of mayors actually went out and said "I'll make sure this law is not applied". Reasons cited: it's anti-constitutional, it makes obtaining a permit for non-comunitarian non-students almost impossible, it's anti-humanitarian, it's Lega-made. Mind that it's only PD supported mayors. Despite the sorry state the party is right now, at a local level it's still one of the main political forces in certain regions of Italy. As Thoreau said, "Civil disobedience", but only against our political enemies. -Finally, the Reddito di Cittadinanza is explained. You might have hear M5S going all-in on a thing called "Reddito di Cittadinanza" - somwthing like a "citizenship income". It needs a meme, something like the "they said it would be - you thought it was - it actually is", because it started as a very socialistic measure against low wages/unemployment, to make sure every citizen is sent back into employment or training by having the welfare pay them a reasonable minimum quota. While it was clear it was something completely unfeasible, part of the voters still wanted to give M5S a chance and put this proposal in motion. Well, it turns out that you are eligible for this service if you're incredibly poor and own next to nothing. If you're simply poor and own anything, it's very likely you won't eligible. And if you opt in and are actually eligible, you'll have to accept one job offer out of the three the state will find you. The catch? The third one can be anywhere in the country. its_something.jpg Dommolus Magnus posted:This is perhaps a seed of an explanation, but I think it falls a bit short as Germany had a very similar history to Italy yet still ended up with a more or less unified identity. It was more than four.  And, no, they didn't have same population or economic power. Nonetheless, either there wasn't enough disparity of power, or enough cultural closeness to allow the Kingdom of Sardinia, despite spearheading the unification movement, to impose its own cultural identity onto the would-be Italians. Anyway, others might offer more insightful replies. I don't actually know how Germany didn't follow our same path, identity-speaking. what's your take? Gort posted:Yeah, I vote for this. I love learning foreign slang and idioms. Well well... Have you ever heard of the art of "bestemmia"? The art of swearing against God. mortons stork posted:I'm in favour of English only. We're trying to get out the message of how our incredibly depressing politics can be made understandable to a wider audience, if it's supposed to be the Bar Sport I can just go down the street for that with the added bonus that I can drink heavily there. Same. I like the spoilers in Italian. SlowBloke posted:[...] I was one of the lucky ones that got caught in the nets [...]
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Jan 7, 2019 16:09
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Char posted:... e Trieste, se ho capito bene? PTA in una qualche università? Trieste sì ma ultima lettera del MIUR, di più non mi espongo visto che siamo letteralmente quattro gatti, se dico di più tanto vale che metto la carta d'identità 
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Jan 7, 2019 18:06
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Char posted:-Finally, the Reddito di Cittadinanza is explained. Oh hey, it's Hartz Quattro. Congratulations, child poverty is going up Up UP! So, how does the current Italian welfare system work? What would be the benefits of opting-in on this? Higher payouts?
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Jan 7, 2019 18:30
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Raspberry Jam It In Me posted:Oh hey, it's Hartz Quattro. Congratulations, child poverty is going up Up UP! The standard unemployment (ASPI, formerly DASPI/NASPI) is a relative percentage of the previous pay so if you got poo poo pay in your last job you get even shittier unemployment benefits payoffs, with this new trick the low end of the former working crowd is more protected. The issue is how the unemployment office are going to handle this new status, I think that upstairs they'll demand to act more active/proactive while handling people without work(since the last round of workfare reforms made by Biagi, national unemployment offices got made pretty much useless. Most of the job search role have been handled by private middlemen instead of them) instead of letting them float without assistance in job hunting. The risk IMHO is to throw bad/lowball jobs to force people out of the unemployment payout(first two offers have to be relatively near but can be turned off, the third one is pretty much go or lose the benefits). Child poverty is kinda of a no issue in this context, you need to be of legal age AND have worked for quite a bit to claim these benefits. New workforce will be handled by the apprendist/stage model which will gently caress them over in a whole different way(working for exposure unless the job provider feels magnanimous and pays you a pittance) SlowBloke fucked around with this message at 20:15 on Jan 7, 2019 |
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Jan 7, 2019 18:40
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