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The two issued for me with SEED are the character designs and Kira. But I haven't seen it in over a decade and it's next on my rewatch list once I get back to Turn A and finish it, so I suspect my opinions on Kira may change. I will still be as bored by Kira/Lacus as ever though.
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Apr 1, 2020 06:11
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drrockso20 posted:Honestly that doesn't make it any better, indeed I'd argue it makes it worse, considering it's one aspect of SEED that doesn't crop up in later series, even more serious seasons like 00 or IBO don't go that far for the most part Iron Blooded Orphans absolutely does gory cuts to people dying in cockpits. It's not as gory as the Cyclops System but about as gory as anything else in the show.
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Apr 1, 2020 06:30
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ImpAtom posted:Iron Blooded Orphans absolutely does gory cuts to people dying in cockpits. It's not as gory as the Cyclops System but about as gory as anything else in the show. That's what I mean, in IBO it feels fitting, in SEED it felt like the kind of thing an edgy teenager would stick in their crappy fan fiction rather than something from a professional studio
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Apr 1, 2020 07:03
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Ngl I need a good way to see OG Gundam. Because I feel like watching seed is watching that but le creuset is some sort of lame bootleg char in this one. I know that ones a bit woah for a random post but I just haven't seen what I was expecting from that character yet.
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Apr 1, 2020 07:19
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Honestly Le Creuset is more of an Iron Mask than a Char.
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Apr 1, 2020 07:21
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drrockso20 posted:Personally my biggest bugbear with SEED is how every now and then it just dips into completely unnecessary and horribly out of place gore this is the most compelling reason i've ever been given to try watching SEED
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Apr 1, 2020 07:23
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ninjewtsu posted:this is the most compelling reason i've ever been given to try watching SEED Trust me it's not, like it's really lovely gore
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Apr 1, 2020 07:26
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drrockso20 posted:That's what I mean, in IBO it feels fitting, in SEED it felt like the kind of thing an edgy teenager would stick in their crappy fan fiction rather than something from a professional studio I guess we'll have to disagree here because IBO felt way more tryhard edgy to me. Like IBO is the setting where one of the major characters is a super-cool Space Mafia guy who wears a fedora and has a harem ship full of women and everyone loves him because he's the best. It's the setting which repeatedly introduces characters just to murder them the next episode in the most hamfisted ways possible. ("Did you know I have a brother?" "GASP! MY BROTHER!" Am I talking about Akihiro or Biscuit here?) It's a setting where rape is commonplace, children have to have potentially crippling spinal surgery to pilot death robots, where one of the villain groups is almost directly taken from Fist of the North Star, where the protagonist murders captured prisoners in the second episode, where a small girl gets brutally tortured, etc, etc. It is Grimdark as poo poo. It has moments outside of those which improve the series but it is also full of My Edgy Fanfiction right down to having My Best Personal OC Who Is The Best written in to solve character problems. IBO by its nature has to be dark and I'm not hammering it for that, but there's a difference between "Dark" and whatever the gently caress the Brewers were. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 07:38 on Apr 1, 2020 |
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Apr 1, 2020 07:26
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MonsieurChoc posted:Honestly Le Creuset is more of an Iron Mask than a Char. Haven't gotten that far in my UC so I guess that explains why it fell flat for me.
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Apr 1, 2020 07:38
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ImpAtom posted:I guess we'll have to disagree here because IBO felt way more tryhard edgy to me. IBO definitely had the most gangster ending. Shout out to my boy ride.
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Apr 1, 2020 07:40
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SEED was always mediocre to bad but it dies for me at the end when Rau is screaming his head off about Humanity needing to die and how lovely it is, and Kira's response is "No your wrong" and when Rau asks him for proof, Kira just goes silent, because he didn't think that far ahead.
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Apr 1, 2020 07:55
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Even so...
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Apr 1, 2020 08:10
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Pureauthor posted:Even so... That's interesting as a contrast because, like it or don't, "Even so!" was fleshed out as a philosophical counter to Full Frontal's position. Banagher was betting on a long shot, saying that no matter how rotten the world got, no matter how impossible salvation seemed, there was always the chance things could be different. Newtypes symbolized an impossible, unreasonable hope. And in the resolution of Zinnerman's arc, we see it pay out, with someone released from the cycle of hatred despite seeing more of the same tragedies that drove him into the cycle in the first place. Kira, meanwhile, just doesn't have an answer. SEED wants to be optimistic, with Kira and Lacus being the heroes who save the world, but it keeps making the world worse, rendering it harder and harder for its solutions to work in a satisfying way.
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Apr 1, 2020 08:42
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SEED was fine, but it's worst crime for me was how boring it was. All the fights are just suits flying around shooting lasers at each other as far as I remember, and the suit designs were all really samey and boring for the most part.
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Apr 1, 2020 10:06
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The thing that really stands out is the constant flashback insertions. It's almost like the director is saying 'This is what is informing [currently visible character]'s actions because we don't trust you to remember', but it also just feels like the Darkplace gag about using slow motion sequences to hide that the episodes were running eight minutes short. If the lockdown doesn't lift soon, cabin fever will end up making me manually count poo poo like how much time was lost to seeing that violinist get shot.
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Apr 1, 2020 10:22
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jackhunter64 posted:The thing that really stands out is the constant flashback insertions. It's almost like the director is saying 'This is what is informing [currently visible character]'s actions because we don't trust you to remember', I don't think it was the director as much as the producers and TV station. For the kind of people that inhabit a "Gundam Thread" yes, flashbacks and recap episodes suck balls, because of course we remember what happened. It's a 50 episode continuous narrative though and the producers are worried about maximizing ratings. It's fine for monster-of-the-week type shows where it's relatively easy to drop in and out without missing much but with a longer narrative it's harder to keep the attention of the casuals who miss a few eps here and there and new viewers who may have only found the show when it was already halfway through its run. Being that this was before the popularization of internet video, there weren't many reliable ways to catch up on series information, so for those people the flashbacks are pretty much necessary to keep them watching.
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Apr 1, 2020 11:07
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jackhunter64 posted:The thing that really stands out is the constant flashback insertions. It's almost like the director is saying 'This is what is informing [currently visible character]'s actions because we don't trust you to remember', but it also just feels like the Darkplace gag about using slow motion sequences to hide that the episodes were running eight minutes short. If the lockdown doesn't lift soon, cabin fever will end up making me manually count poo poo like how much time was lost to seeing that violinist get shot. If half the stories I've heard are true, the Darkplace reasoning is closer to the truth than anything else. The new technology, the ways the budget was used, and (if I remember the timeline right) the lead writer's health issues all came together to mean they weren't managing throughput fast enough to get whole new episodes every week. Thus stock footage, expansive recap episodes, flashbacks, etc.
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Apr 1, 2020 11:47
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SEED's biggest sin is that it's a stunningly unpleasant experience on a visual level. The character designs are unnerving, the colour palette is garish, the mechanical designs look more like plastic toys than something from a serious war drama (and SEED takes itself very seriously), the fight choreography is crude and repetitive, and the constant flashbacks, recaps, and stock footage make it seem like you're watching the same episode over and over and over. The pacing is also significantly less snappy than in the original Mobile Suit Gundam that the early plot is heavily based on. It takes the White Base six episodes to get to Earth, and it takes the Archangel fourteen. Yes, their journey is more eventful, but not that much more eventful. Finally, there's the characters, who feel much more like characters in a drama than like people. They don't really have the same quirks and wrinkles as the cast of Mobile Suit Gundam, making it much more difficult to invest in their arcs and interplay - which is a problem because, again, so much of SEED is a lift of the original story.
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Apr 1, 2020 12:06
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Darth Walrus posted:Finally, there's the characters, who feel much more like characters in a drama than like people. They don't really have the same quirks and wrinkles as the cast of Mobile Suit Gundam, making it much more difficult to invest in their arcs and interplay - which is a problem because, again, so much of SEED is a lift of the original story. One thing that stood out to me comparing the first episode of the original and SEED was how unconventional Amuro was as a protagonist, how much we saw him standing out and being unlike pretty much any mech show hero before him. We got a lot about Amuro in his first scenes to tell us who this kid is and why we should care. The show wants us to know why Amuro's worth paying attention to even before we see why he's going to be important to the plot. Meanwhile, Kira's much more "normal" in his early scenes, with friends and regular people activities. His character beats in the first episode aren't like Amuro soldering in his boxers or Mikazuki counting one fourth on his fingers (not first episode, I know, but it's just so good). They're plot important, setting up for later that Kira will reprogram things, that his childhood friend will become an enemy, that the girl he chased will be relevant later. We don't know much about Kira as a person, except insofar as it matters for Kira as an anime protagonist. It's a pretty big philosophical difference, and I wonder if it was something that SEED succeeded in spite of, or partially because of.
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Apr 1, 2020 13:48
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I hate it when this thread starts going fast. Lets see... poo poo, I don't think I ever realized it's MacArthur in that scene. That is meta as gently caress. Blaze Dragon posted:Then there really would be no issue with Mika piloting them. He says as early as episode 1 that he's fine with his brain getting melted and proves it several times during the course of IBO. This is the impression I get too. The NT-D and AVS are not exactly worlds apart. One is a wired man-machine interface, the other is wireless. The wireless one just has some issues with brain whammy eventually. If the effects are basically like Barbatos, where information overload fries our meat processors, then there's really no reason Mika wouldn't be able to rumble in the Norn, or possibly even the Unicorn depending on what the mean-time-to-break is. And he'd be fine with it as long as the NT-D is active. The problem comes from the time limit on the system. Mika would have five minutes to do what he needed to do before losing the man-machine interface and needing to rely on physical piloting. chiasaur11 posted:One thing that stood out to me comparing the first episode of the original and SEED was how unconventional Amuro was as a protagonist, how much we saw him standing out and being unlike pretty much any mech show hero before him. We got a lot about Amuro in his first scenes to tell us who this kid is and why we should care. The show wants us to know why Amuro's worth paying attention to even before we see why he's going to be important to the plot. Meanwhile, Kira's much more "normal" in his early scenes, with friends and regular people activities. His character beats in the first episode aren't like Amuro soldering in his boxers or Mikazuki counting one fourth on his fingers (not first episode, I know, but it's just so good). They're plot important, setting up for later that Kira will reprogram things, that his childhood friend will become an enemy, that the girl he chased will be relevant later. We don't know much about Kira as a person, except insofar as it matters for Kira as an anime protagonist. I'm of the opinion that the answer is "because of it." It's easier to project yourself on a character who looks normal and is indistinct. That kind of thing appeals to a lot of people. Amuro is more stimulating from a critical perspective because he tells a more complete story. Kira is more entertaining from a catharsis I-am-Kira perspective. I don't buy it since audience insert characters don't do anything for me, but I get where it comes from. Also, as an aside about the gore: I really think one of the animators may have microwaved a hamster as a kid or something.
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Apr 1, 2020 14:16
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Talking about gore and it's use in anime reminded me of Eureka 7, and the episode about 1/3rd of the way through where Renton gets pissed that everyone keeps on hiding things from him and not telling him what's going on, to the point where they basically mock him for being such a dumb moody kid and demand that he go out on a sortie to save Holland since he's doing this to help Eureka. It doesn't end well
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Apr 1, 2020 15:16
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Classon Ave. Robot posted:SEED was fine, but it's worst crime for me was how boring it was. All the fights are just suits flying around shooting lasers at each other as far as I remember, and the suit designs were all really samey and boring for the most part. Another thing (because I love having an excuse to complain about how much I hate seed) is that like - even the mecha designs are kind of lame. More so than almost any other gundam series, Seed suffers really hard from so many of the designs feeling almost interchangeable. Part of it comes from like half its catalog being variants of the main two mechs and, in games and stuff, the astray. But it doesn't help that the very basic shape of most of them tends to stem from the same sharp, angular frame with different armor bolted on to it. I honestly can't really find a single seed design that stands out to me, but i can tell in an instant any time I see one because they all have a very distinct "that's from seed" style.
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Apr 1, 2020 16:08
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Nuebot posted:Another thing (because I love having an excuse to complain about how much I hate seed) is that like - even the mecha designs are kind of lame. More so than almost any other gundam series, Seed suffers really hard from so many of the designs feeling almost interchangeable. Part of it comes from like half its catalog being variants of the main two mechs and, in games and stuff, the astray. But it doesn't help that the very basic shape of most of them tends to stem from the same sharp, angular frame with different armor bolted on to it. I honestly can't really find a single seed design that stands out to me, but i can tell in an instant any time I see one because they all have a very distinct "that's from seed" style. Makes sense that the episode's are starting to gloss over for me now. Idk if I wanna finish subbed SEED. At least with dubs, I can amuse myself if I hear a familiar VA or lol at bad voice acting ala gundam wing.
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Apr 1, 2020 16:25
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Aside from the other things everyone else brought up, there's a couple things I didn't really like much in SEED. The first was how Kira's friends stopped mattering less than halfway through the show. MSG gave all of Amuro's friends their time in the spotlight, character arcs and even fought together with Amuro. Meanwhile, Kira's friends were just an excuse to have extra voices for the bridge. The other thing I didn't like about SEED is how it split up Bright's character into Murrue and Natarle. Murrue's the newbie captain who's just winging it, but doesn't really have much to her other than her romance with Mu. On the other hand, Natarle got Bright's tendency to be tough on others and having to be the one to come up with the hard solutions. Problem is, Natarle is only the vice-captain so she ends up being the character who always makes ruthless suggestions just to get shut down by the more "moral" characters. It's like they wanted a Bright character, but were afraid to give them flaws or something.
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Apr 1, 2020 17:23
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the most interesting thing about seed is the many ways in which they got msg so incredibly wrong.
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Apr 1, 2020 17:29
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BurningChrome posted:Makes sense that the episode's are starting to gloss over for me now. Idk if I wanna finish subbed SEED. At least with dubs, I can amuse myself if I hear a familiar VA or lol at bad voice acting ala gundam wing. Dub seed is the better seed solely for the performance of Mark Oliver as Rau. He is pretty much universally regarded as positive when talking about seed.
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Apr 1, 2020 17:33
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Warmachine posted:Dub seed is the better seed solely for the performance of Mark Oliver as Rau. He is pretty much universally regarded as positive when talking about seed. I second this.
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Apr 1, 2020 17:40
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Kurieg posted:Talking about gore and it's use in anime reminded me of Eureka 7, and the episode about 1/3rd of the way through where Renton gets pissed that everyone keeps on hiding things from him and not telling him what's going on, to the point where they basically mock him for being such a dumb moody kid and demand that he go out on a sortie to save Holland since he's doing this to help Eureka. I really want to like Eureka 7, but man way too much of the main cast are just completely unlikable assholes
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Apr 1, 2020 17:55
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Warmachine posted:Dub seed is the better seed solely for the performance of Mark Oliver as Rau. He is pretty much universally regarded as positive when talking about seed. Where the gently caress do I find it and all dubbed gundam eps online? I gotta rewatch endless waltz dubbed too.
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Apr 1, 2020 18:43
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Darth Walrus posted:SEED's biggest sin is that it's a stunningly unpleasant experience on a visual level. The character designs are unnerving, the colour palette is garish, the mechanical designs look more like plastic toys than something from a serious war drama (and SEED takes itself very seriously), the fight choreography is crude and repetitive, and the constant flashbacks, recaps, and stock footage make it seem like you're watching the same episode over and over and over. Honestly a lot of this feels like criticism that wouldn't be applied if it wasn't SEED. "Mechanical designs that look more like plastic toys than something from a serious war drama" applies to pretty much every Gundam series, because they are literally made to sell plastic toys. Original MSG flirts with ugly war aesthetic but at the end of the day the Gundam is a brightly colored combiner that fights with a beam sword and has multiple configurations. The Zeta Gundam transforms because Macross was popular and you have brightly painted gold cool looking robots and things blatantly made to sell toys. The ZZ is basically a giant toy even in-series. That's setting aside stuff like G Gundam, Gundam X, 00, and AGE where they basically have ridiculous cartoon robots. Even IBO with its mobile workers and stock Graze types still errs on the side of Cool Toy Robots when it comes to protagonists. And every single one looks like a giant toy because they are giant toys. The "so much of SEED is a lift of the original story" thing gets a lot overplayed. Two major beats ("the protagonist is forced to pilot a mobile suit after a Z attack on the main colony" and "The protagonist encounters an older enemy soldier who he kinda befriends and then also has to fight") are plainly lifted from MSG but almost every single other beat is SEED's for good or ill. SEED spends a whole lot more time focusing on the character drama and that is intentional and appears to have been entirely in its favor considering how much that character drama seems to have landed. The part where they are characters in a drama is intentional. You, personally, may have trouble investing in dramas but they are popular for a reason and SEED goes full soap opera. The slow pacing is because SEED is genuinely more interested in its character melodrama than it is in its robot fights unless those robot fights directly interact with the character melodrama. This is actually something you see in a lot of Fukuda's works. It's present in Cyber Formula and Dendoh both and in Cyber Formula's case the franchise only got more popular as it focused on interpersonal drama over just car racing. That isn't to say none of them have cool fights/races/whatever but it's soap opera writing through and through. This is referring to original SEED. Destiny tried to put a lot more focus on fights-for-fights-sake and started the literal UC copying with ZAKUs and GOUFs and unsurprisingly Destiny wasn't as popular as SEED despite Kira and Lacus' near-unflinching popularity.
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Apr 1, 2020 19:03
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drrockso20 posted:I really want to like Eureka 7, but man way too much of the main cast are just completely unlikable assholes They're kind of supposed to be. They're freedom fighters and soldiers and Renton has a very very romantic view of what that means up until that very scene. After he comes back and he starts making his own decisions, knowing the reality of what's happening, they start treating him better. It helps that Dewey is an infinitely hateable child abusing rear end in a top hat.
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Apr 1, 2020 19:38
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ImpAtom posted:Honestly a lot of this feels like criticism that wouldn't be applied if it wasn't SEED. See, I'd disagree with that on mechanical design. Other shows usually feel like their mechanical designs are better integrated with the world they exist in. It's not about whether they're cartoony or realistic, it's about whether they specifically look like giant plastic toys. That's a very specific aesthetic, which you'd also see in American Saturday morning cartoons - boxy, functional, and overloaded with bright, clashing colours and gimmicks and gadgets. MSG's designs are just cartoony Seventies sci-fi in colours that are also bright but much simpler, with their viability as toys being a secondary concern. Compare a Zaku and a ZAKU to see what I mean - one is a lot more obviously designed with its durability as a small toy in mind, and has a much more varied colour palette that draws your eye to its various gimmicks. Plus, y'know, there's the plasticky sheen of the early-00s digipaint, which really drives the impression home.
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Apr 1, 2020 19:54
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Darth Walrus posted:See, I'd disagree with that on mechanical design. Other shows usually feel like their mechanical designs are better integrated with the world they exist in. It's not about whether they're cartoony or realistic, it's about whether they specifically look like giant plastic toys. That's a very specific aesthetic, which you'd also see in American Saturday morning cartoons - boxy, functional, and overloaded with bright, clashing colours and gimmicks and gadgets. MSG's designs are just cartoony Seventies sci-fi in colours that are also bright but much simpler, with their viability as toys being a secondary concern. Compare a Zaku and a ZAKU to see what I mean - one is a lot more obviously designed with its durability as a small toy in mind, and has a much more varied colour palette that draws your eye to its various gimmicks. Plus, y'know, there's the plasticky sheen of the early-00s digipaint, which really drives the impression home. I am really not seeing how the original Gundam is not boxy, functional, and overloaded with bright clashing colors and gimmicks and gadgets.  Like even using your Zaku example:  vs  There are obvious differences between style and coloring technique but you'd also have to compare what toys actually looked like at the time. Which is to say largely dumpy-rear end pieces of plastic, which the Zaku was absolutely suited for. They both look like toys just toys from different eras. Maybe because I grew up with a lot of dollar story/goodwill toys but the Zaku II looks absolutely like a toy to me. It's still an awesome design mind you but it's extremely toyetic. That's setting aside things like the Zakarello or Zeong which would be toyetic as hell no matter what the art style is. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 20:21 on Apr 1, 2020 |
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Apr 1, 2020 20:12
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Darth Walrus posted:See, I'd disagree with that on mechanical design. Other shows usually feel like their mechanical designs are better integrated with the world they exist in. It's not about whether they're cartoony or realistic, it's about whether they specifically look like giant plastic toys. That's a very specific aesthetic, which you'd also see in American Saturday morning cartoons - boxy, functional, and overloaded with bright, clashing colours and gimmicks and gadgets. MSG's designs are just cartoony Seventies sci-fi in colours that are also bright but much simpler, with their viability as toys being a secondary concern. Compare a Zaku and a ZAKU to see what I mean - one is a lot more obviously designed with its durability as a small toy in mind, and has a much more varied colour palette that draws your eye to its various gimmicks. Plus, y'know, there's the plasticky sheen of the early-00s digipaint, which really drives the impression home. I'd say it comes down to SEED being the series where Okawara's designs are at their most unfiltered and toyetic
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Apr 1, 2020 20:29
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The 00 Gundams are a super sentai team. 08th MS team takes the designs you know and adds a ton of cool new weapons and accessories. There has never been a Gundam show whose robot aesthetics are not toy like.
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Apr 1, 2020 20:30
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I think it's ok, for the show that finances itself by selling toys, to have things that look like toys in it.
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Apr 1, 2020 20:32
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ImpAtom posted:The "so much of SEED is a lift of the original story" thing gets a lot overplayed. Two major beats ("the protagonist is forced to pilot a mobile suit after a Z attack on the main colony" and "The protagonist encounters an older enemy soldier who he kinda befriends and then also has to fight") are plainly lifted from MSG but almost every single other beat is SEED's for good or ill. SEED spends a whole lot more time focusing on the character drama and that is intentional and appears to have been entirely in its favor considering how much that character drama seems to have landed. I agree with most of the post but I want to point out that, just off the top of my head, I can think of two more instances: The reentry scene and the part where the ship retreats to a friendly fortress where the crew is arrested that gets wrecked are lifted from MSG as well. This is all early SEED though, you're right that after Waltfeld it becomes its own show and pretty much nothing is copied again.
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Apr 1, 2020 20:37
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Ethiser posted:The 00 Gundams are a super sentai team. 08th MS team takes the designs you know and adds a ton of cool new weapons and accessories. There has never been a Gundam show whose robot aesthetics are not toy like. True, it just kinda sticks out more in SEED and Destiny than it does elsewhere
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Apr 1, 2020 20:40
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ImpAtom posted:I am really not seeing how the original Gundam is not boxy, functional, and overloaded with bright clashing colors and gimmicks and gadgets. It's the difference between being designed as a whimsical sci-fi creation that is also reasonably toyetic, and being designed as a toy that is also piloted in a sci-fi show. The original Gundam's simple, clean colours and design let it feel big and otherworldly, part of another, coherent universe. I keep thinking of classic Disney characters here. They're not realistic, obviously, but they feel like inhabitants of their world that have the weight and presence they're supposed to. The SEED designs, meanwhile, just feel like supermarket-shelf tat - both conservative and over-busy in their desperation to advertise all their detail and features. Like, eww, what's with those orange vents on the ZAKU's skirt? What else in the colour palette do they complement? Where's the visual consistency? Why are those the only vents that are orange? Why can't they be white like every other vent on the suit? For a toy, it makes sense, if they have some special gimmick you want to draw the eye to, but it damages the versimillitude of the overall design. It's like having an army green truck with restrained red and black detailing and giant fluorescent yellow foam missiles on the back.
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Apr 1, 2020 20:51
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Darth Walrus posted:It's the difference between being designed as a whimsical sci-fi creation that is also reasonably toyetic, and being designed as a toy that is also piloted in a sci-fi show. The original Gundam's simple, clean colours and design let it feel big and otherworldly, part of another, coherent universe. I keep thinking of classic Disney characters here. They're not realistic, obviously, but they feel like inhabitants of their world that have the weight and presence they're supposed to. I wouldn't say the Zaku fits that though. The Zaku is a toy. It is blatantly a toy. Something like the X-Wing is a lot more like what you're describing. It's obviously 'toyetic' but it reads more naturally. In addition it is because those are some form of thruster.  As you see in the back of the suit *all* its thrusters have the same orange color. As far as what you're saying about the colors standing out, that's also extremely common  The Gouf has two yellow sections on its armor because ?  The Guncannon has an orange dot on its crotch.  The Marasai inexplicably has unpainted 'tubes' GimmickMan posted:I agree with most of the post but I want to point out that, just off the top of my head, I can think of two more instances: The reentry scene and the part where the ship retreats to a friendly fortress where the crew is arrested that gets wrecked are lifted from MSG as well. This is all early SEED though, you're right that after Waltfeld it becomes its own show and pretty much nothing is copied again. That is fair. I didn't think of the reentry scene largely because "reentry scene" is so common in Gundam that it felt like pointing out it has a masked dude. You're 100% right about the Artemis part. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 21:17 on Apr 1, 2020 |
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Apr 1, 2020 21:12
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