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...huh. There’s not a thread on rpgnet about this. That’s...weird? That feels weird. I’d put it down to COVID distraction tho.
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Apr 2, 2020 22:11
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Absurd Alhazred posted:I literally just finished reading over Dungeon World last week, too. I’d recommend Fellowship instead. Gnome is cool and it does a lot of stuff better, at least imo, especially with the new edition. I’m sorry about the timing, tho, that sucks.
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Apr 2, 2020 22:13
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Well of course not that would be a "personal attack".
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Apr 2, 2020 22:13
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He apologized, that means it didn't happen and it's okay.
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Apr 2, 2020 22:15
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e: nm
Absurd Alhazred fucked around with this message at 19:03 on Jul 22, 2020 |
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Apr 2, 2020 22:19
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Mors Rattus posted:...huh. There’s not a thread on rpgnet about this. That’s...weird? That feels weird. I’d put it down to COVID distraction tho. Somebody made one, but nothing beyond the OP.
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Apr 3, 2020 00:43
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Absurd Alhazred posted:I appreciate it, but I'm not really looking into a specific PbtA thing to work with, I just wanted something that was close enough to what I know relatively well (D&D) that I would be able to see exactly how it's different. I don't think I would have ran it as written, anyway. Bad timing, in any event. Yeah, bad timing. Aside from this issue: I would say that DW isn't a terribly good implementation of the PbtA framework, overall. While it's familiar, it hews more closely to D&D tropes than it does to Apocalypse World principles. AW itself is a good way to get a better idea for how the mechanics are really supposed to interact with a story. Or, for a fantasy implementation, Inverse World is a lot more interesting just in terms of classes than base DW. The Inverse World setting's also pretty interesting. About this issue: even with an apology, that's really gross. While I think safety tools are fantastic, DW is not a game where I'd expect them to come up much. I'd already found Koebel a bit hard to take but I'm certainly done after this.
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Apr 3, 2020 00:54
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I just don't know how a person watching a live feed of everyone else gagging at their storytelling choices doesn't immediately alter course, rather than doubling down. The entire ending to that video, with everyone seeming so subdued and in some cases hurt, was really sad to watch.
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Apr 3, 2020 01:01
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Memnaelar posted:I just don't know how a person watching a live feed of everyone else gagging at their storytelling choices doesn't immediately alter course, rather than doubling down. The entire ending to that video, with everyone seeming so subdued and in some cases hurt, was really sad to watch. It's a grosser version of the same mindset that assumes that if people didn't laugh at your joke you need to explain it more.
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Apr 3, 2020 01:08
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well, at least it's an apology and a promise to do better and not "due to your 'sensitivities' i must unfortunately become a nazi"
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Apr 3, 2020 01:14
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Cat Face Joe posted:well, at least it's an apology and a promise to do better and not "due to your 'sensitivities' i must unfortunately become a nazi"
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Apr 3, 2020 01:35
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Elephant Parade posted:It's true that some people respond to callouts by turning into weird alt-righters, but I don't think that lowers the bar for apologies, and—as discussed—his apology fell well short of that bar. Basically, I'm not sure what you're getting at. I'm not sure it's been discussed how his apology fell short of the bar? Like, it literally hasn't been discussed in this thread, at least, other than that it's an image rather than spread out over multiple tweets. What he did was extremely gross and a real violation, and certainly makes me not want to support DW stuff, but that's not really much of an action on my part - I hadn't before. But, I'm not sure what's wrong with his apology - he seems to be saying he'll be suspending his work and trying to improve as a person, re-establishing safety guidelines, and so on. He hosed up and is going to suffer the consequences, which is correct, but I guess I'm not seeing what he could add to that apology to make it more sincere or meaningful (assuming he follows through on the promises he makes in it; we all know that can easily not happen).
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Apr 3, 2020 01:49
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Sionak posted:About this issue: even with an apology, that's really gross. While I think safety tools are fantastic, DW is not a game where I'd expect them to come up much. I'd already found Koebel a bit hard to take but I'm certainly done after this.
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Apr 3, 2020 01:54
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What's the criticism of image and text link apologies?
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Apr 3, 2020 02:19
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They're easy to doctor and don't always have timestamps attached. You'd be better off doing like a Tweetlonger thing or having a link to a post on a public-facing website like your blog. Accountability and veracity of these things legitimately matters, y'know?
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Apr 3, 2020 02:48
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Mors Rattus posted:...huh. There’s not a thread on rpgnet about this. That’s...weird? That feels weird. I’d put it down to COVID distraction tho. Apparently this happened last week(!!) and it was only yesterday-ish I started seeing vague references to something having happened. Then the lid came off and Allandaros (maybe others?) finally named names on Twitter for those of us who don't pay attention to streaming games to have any idea what's going on. Which has prompted other bodies to start wringing their hands about they didn't want to name him because of being afraid of being dogpiled and/or that they can understand why no one is speaking up because oh no, Twitter followers. Which is aggravating to say the least.
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Apr 3, 2020 02:50
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Huh. Okay. He uploaded it to a site that tracks text revisions, which is good enough for me. But I can understand people might be frustrated that he's not using Twitter the way they want him to.
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Apr 3, 2020 02:51
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So, having listened to the response from the lady whose character was assaulted, I have to say, that apology is not only inadequate, it is actively misleading. This isn’t a safety tool situation here - this is Adam Koebel actively going against his player’s stated wishes, goals and desires for..,no reason I can understand, in the worst and most horrific manner possible. Safety tools can’t stop that.
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Apr 3, 2020 03:59
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taichara posted:Apparently this happened last week(!!) and it was only yesterday-ish I started seeing vague references to something having happened. Then the lid came off and Allandaros (maybe others?) finally named names on Twitter for those of us who don't pay attention to streaming games to have any idea what's going on. Certainly I know Havana, the female streamer wearing the blonde wig in the video, was extremely triggered by it and is not eager to talk about it. She already has a lot of issues with anxiety and has already spent the last however long trying to work through the feelings it brought up.
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Apr 3, 2020 04:04
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Mors Rattus posted:So, having listened to the response from the lady whose character was assaulted, I have to say, that apology is not only inadequate, it is actively misleading. This isn’t a safety tool situation here - this is Adam Koebel actively going against his player’s stated wishes, goals and desires for..,no reason I can understand, in the worst and most horrific manner possible. Safety tools can’t stop that. yea I don't get why people are talking about 'good apology', it's not an apology at all because it's like me punching someone in the face and going 'I regret not taking personal safety into account', safety wasn't the issue, the issue was that he out of nowhere forced this really lovely thing on a person despite them clearly not liking it at all! I don't really care that he's 'stepping back' or whatever, he clearly seems to either genuinely not understand what he did or he just doesn't give a poo poo, either way he should be getting kicked out of the group not just taking a break.
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Apr 3, 2020 04:07
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Mors Rattus posted:So, having listened to the response from the lady whose character was assaulted, I have to say, that apology is not only inadequate, it is actively misleading. This isn’t a safety tool situation here - this is Adam Koebel actively going against his player’s stated wishes, goals and desires for..,no reason I can understand, in the worst and most horrific manner possible. Safety tools can’t stop that. Well, gently caress.
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Apr 3, 2020 04:08
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tbh I actually do get why, Adam very cynically was weaponizing good language and all to do the stereotypical 'fake feminist dude gets called out for being a creep' move of cramming as many good terms as he can into his apology without actually acknowledging the lovely thing he did or the woman he victimized. Safety tools are great! Tables really should have those! Hey don't worry about me not actually saying what I did or anything it was just a safety issue, whomst among us am I right guys?
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Apr 3, 2020 04:11
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e: nm
Absurd Alhazred fucked around with this message at 19:04 on Jul 22, 2020 |
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Apr 3, 2020 04:16
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He apologised for hypocrisy. That's all he apologised for. He did not say 'I'm sorry for causing pain to my friends' in so many words because he isn't actually sorry, is how it reads to me.
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Apr 3, 2020 04:30
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Mors Rattus posted:So, having listened to the response from the lady whose character was assaulted, I have to say, that apology is not only inadequate, it is actively misleading. This isn’t a safety tool situation here - this is Adam Koebel actively going against his player’s stated wishes, goals and desires for..,no reason I can understand, in the worst and most horrific manner possible. Safety tools can’t stop that. Woof. Exceptionally not okay.
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Apr 3, 2020 04:45
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I don't think I can add much as far as disgust or analysis, other than to say I was pretty underwhelmed by Dungeon World to begin with and PbtA has way better fantasy hacks to play anyways.
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Apr 3, 2020 05:23
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Yup, ok, gently caress that guy and doubly gently caress him for downplaying what he did.
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Apr 3, 2020 06:12
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The point has been raised elsewhere that if this was anyone other than One Of The Guys Who Did Dungeon World And Is Also A Prolific Community Voice that there wouldn't even be any debates about how sufficient or not their apology was, they would have already been cancelled into the sun. I guess with enough clout you can get away with something like playing out some in-game rape as a joke on camera while your players all collectively shrink back in their seats and some people (and to be clear this is aimed more at places like twitter than anyone in this thread) will continue to go to bat for you.
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Apr 3, 2020 08:39
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Man, that video apology on the RollPlay channel was extremely not an apology, holy poo poo.
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Apr 3, 2020 08:55
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I've been having a lot of really bad anxiety/feelings about this whole situation and like Full disclosure: I have beef with Olivia Hill and usually think bad things about her when I think about her at all. But I used to look up to her before that, and I know she's good at saying things that are good for survivors, or at least cathartic in their viciousness. So I went to see what she said about this in hopes that it would be Just Like Old Times. https://twitter.com/machineiv/status/1245766223800881153 Instead she validated all the bad thoughts by making it about her and her opinions and her game she wrote (buy it with money!!) Friends, I would like to say I have it in me to be caustic and sarcastic about this, but I don't. I'd like to say this gives me the energy to do a victory lap, but it doesn't do that either. It just makes me very sad. Whatever happened between the Good Times and the Bad Times seems to be there to stay. EDIT: Not removing this because the genie's already out of the bottle but this was an emotionally charged rant rather than a logical/accurate thing to say and I am The Big Idiot for having said it in the first place. Disregard. sasha_d3ath fucked around with this message at 11:18 on Apr 3, 2020 |
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Apr 3, 2020 10:20
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TK_Nyarlathotep posted:I've been having a lot of really bad anxiety/feelings about this whole situation and like Isn't that just her saying that tools are just tools and not some kind of panacea and can in fact be used badly? Pointing out that her opinion on it was already out there and in fact quoting it so you don't need to buy her book doesn't seem very much like making it all about her and selling her product? Especially not when everyone else also has their take on it.
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Apr 3, 2020 10:47
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Oh dear. Those poor folks in the stream. I hope that the person who did this stops and realises that "Oh dear, I have hurt people" matters so much more than "Oh dear, I have made myself unpopular". An apology needs to be coupled with action and change too. Josef bugman fucked around with this message at 11:00 on Apr 3, 2020 |
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Apr 3, 2020 10:57
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Yeah that Hill tweet doesn’t do any of the things it’s being accused of, it’s a direct response to the topics of discussion kicked up by Kobel’s garbage nonapology about safety mechanics and also pointing out that people have been discussing the limits of those mechanics in good faith before this poo poo occurred. I don’t necessarily agree with the entirety of that section but it is absolutely important to have this conversation about the limits of safety net mechanics and how effective they really can be in situations like this one. As someone who has experienced trauma that can cause seemingly unproblematic tabletop bits to be triggering I appreciate them immensely but the point that people like Kobel would bust past them just like he burst past the blatantly obvious discomfort of his players is absolutely a legitimate one.
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Apr 3, 2020 11:09
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Hel posted:Isn't that just her saying that tools are just tools and not some kind of panacea and can in fact be used badly? Pointing out that her opinion on it was already out there and in fact quoting it so you don't need to buy her book doesn't seem very much like making it all about her and selling her product? Especially not when everyone else also has their take on it. "Why use rules if people will use them badly??" isn't a very helpful maxim at this moment in time, and posting a couple of paragraphs of your book and calling it generosity is like saying Star Wars is generous because the trailers are sizzle reels (which she, admittedly, is not doing, but I still find the BUY MY BOOK! nature of it slightly hard to discount).
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Apr 3, 2020 11:09
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Posting a bit of your book for free, to show it’s something you’ve thought about and talked about before the current situation, is absolutely something only the most craven of capitalist would do to make money of tragedy. It’s also a pretty bad faith reading to say that her argument is that we shouldn’t use these rules when the first sentence of that tweet and the pulled quote directly says the opposite?
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Apr 3, 2020 11:17
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Mr. Maltose posted:Posting a bit of your book for free, to show it’s something you’ve thought about and talked about before the current situation, is absolutely something only the most craven of capitalist would do to make money of tragedy. Yeah I'm gonna be real, having been called on it twice I took yet another look and it turns out I entirely dyslexia'd my way into her saying she DOESN'T believe in safety tools. I'm still kind of hosed up by the "some of the worst game experiences I've had are from safety tools" thing, but I was mostly wrong here. Ignore me, it's been an emotionally crippling 18 hours for me as I exemplified here. EDIT: In more explicit terms: I'm sorry, I really shouldn't have done that in the first place. I'll try keep in mind for the future that engaging with people you already distrust when you're in panic mode is pretty much a one-way track to finding something you dislike. sasha_d3ath fucked around with this message at 11:22 on Apr 3, 2020 |
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Apr 3, 2020 11:20
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To be fair to Olivia, there have been times where I have had miserable experiences because I was unable to use safety mechanics (it’s hard to discuss lines and veils when even mentioning some things would reveal trauma that I don’t want to bring up with semi-strangers in the first place) and the inability to engage with them was misread as consent. It’s a legitimate problem that is perpendicular to the discussion at hand but I can certainly understand having that happen.
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Apr 3, 2020 11:28
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Mr. Maltose posted:To be fair to Olivia, there have been times where I have had miserable experiences because I was unable to use safety mechanics (it’s hard to discuss lines and veils when even mentioning some things would reveal trauma that I don’t want to bring up with semi-strangers in the first place) and the inability to engage with them was misread as consent. It’s a legitimate problem that is perpendicular to the discussion at hand but I can certainly understand having that happen. I guess what super gets me is that making it about the safety tools /directly/ buys into the abuser in question's narrative that it was about the safety tools, plus an added layer of "You can read about it in my book, here's a screenshot of my book that this is in (implicitly: buy my book)" that's there whether it was intended or not. I went in expecting words of support for the survivors of condemnation of Koebel or just fuckin anything, but instead it was more talk of safety tools.
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Apr 3, 2020 11:30
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It's understandable to be struggling with being reminded of similar bad experiences. Sadly, the hobby is full of shitlords who get into GMing because it means they can order vulnerable people around. The DW community has just had that thrown in their face in a very public manner. I've been holding back on commenting while coping with my rage over a similar incident in my own gaming past, and I suspect the motives in both that case and the DW stream were the same (ha ha look at me I can upset a girl at the table and nobody can stop me, I'm the GM and I own you bitches). That makes Adam Koebel's transgression all the more heinous, and it's why I personally would not accept an apology from him even if he had given a decent apology. Y'know, if our paths were to cross in any way, shape, or form. The only way most of us can attach any force to our anger is to refuse to support DW, and to support each other instead.
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Apr 3, 2020 12:02
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Mr. Maltose posted:To be fair to Olivia, there have been times where I have had miserable experiences because I was unable to use safety mechanics (it’s hard to discuss lines and veils when even mentioning some things would reveal trauma that I don’t want to bring up with semi-strangers in the first place) and the inability to engage with them was misread as consent. It’s a legitimate problem that is perpendicular to the discussion at hand but I can certainly understand having that happen. Yeah, like, that's definitely an issue with basically any of my issues. Is there stuff that could upset me if delved into in a game? Sure, I expect that's the case for most people and the specifics are different for every person. Do I want to share that in the middle of an FLGS? gently caress no.
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Apr 3, 2020 12:34
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