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piratepilates posted:the cardassians kept them as almost slaves. once the cardassians left, they ripped out all the infrastructure and left them nothing. they have to farm instead of replicate food because they don't have enough replicators, and they don't have the infrastructure to run replicators, and probably several steps in between are missing after the cardassians made it hard. And besides, the replicators might be plot magic but there is some thought put into the technology -- they don't make something out of nothing, you still need organic material and nutrients to convert into the food you're replicating. If you have a population that eats ex. 100 million tons of food a year, then you ultimately need 100 million tons of food-grade something to pipe into them.
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Apr 2, 2020 08:00
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by ds9 replicators were entirely an energy economy, being capable of atomically dismantling matter to reassemble into arbitrary configurations. they literally construct matter on the atomic level from raw energy. they don't care whether it's provided by deconstructing 100 million tons of three star michelin chef food, an antimatter engine, or a trillion tons of arid wasteland dirt. deconstructing material is obviously the least efficient way of powering a replicator because you're paying an overhead at each end but if it's like waste that costs to get rid of anyway you might as well top up your replicator banks with it. in a rebuilding economy stripped of the machinery of production and likely heavily energy starved you wouldn't put food grade anything into it you would just eat that food - you'd be shovelling faecal matter, corpses, and inedible plant stalks into it.
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Apr 2, 2020 08:23
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Even if Bajor had enough replicators for the planet, they still didn't have enough power to keep them going, since there's at least 2 episodes I can think of off the top of my head where they mention power outages and shortages.
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Apr 2, 2020 14:37
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just being able to produce enough food for everyone on the planet through replicators doesn't necessarily mean there would be no famine or shortages of food either. there is a widely developed and held idea right now that all famines in the real world are effectively manmade (here's a random link, there's more in the same vein out there). we have enough food production to ensure everyone on earth is well fed, but due to political problems, economic issues, and distribution issues, there can be shortages of food. feeding starving people is not a matter of producing more food to feed them, but about ensuring the existing surplus of food can get to them in some way.
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Apr 2, 2020 14:56
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I think the question is less “why doesn’t Bajor have x” (because yeah, you can just say Cardassians took it) and more “why can’t humanity, with its explicitly infinite resources, instantly give Bajor everything it needs”
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Apr 2, 2020 15:22
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Prism Mirror Lens posted:I think the question is less “why doesn’t Bajor have x” (because yeah, you can just say Cardassians took it) and more “why can’t humanity, with its explicitly infinite resources, instantly give Bajor everything it needs” As already noted, Bajor is afraid of becoming dependent on the Federation and trading one master for another so it's more of a political than technological bottleneck.
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Apr 2, 2020 15:29
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Though you would think that by the time Shakaar became prime minister they'd be more willing to ask the Federation for that kind of stuff since they were desperate to join at that point.
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Apr 2, 2020 15:31
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Prism Mirror Lens posted:I think the question is less “why doesn’t Bajor have x” (because yeah, you can just say Cardassians took it) and more “why can’t humanity, with its explicitly infinite resources, instantly give Bajor everything it needs” The Federation does give them some kind of industrial replicator (forget whether it was one or two) as noted in the episode where Eddington reveals he' s a filthy terrorist. The episode revolves around securing the transfer of two industrial replicators to Cardassia and Kira makes the point at the beginning that Cardassians are getting more than Bajor did and Sisko is like, "you were just one planet."
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Apr 2, 2020 15:35
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Isn't that also one of the big carrots of Federation membership, that you get access to Federation technology? The help that the Federation is giving the Bajorans isn't disinterested. They want the Bajoran government to join. So they're giving Bajor enough to stabilize their economy and government with the promise of more to come if the Bajorans start moving towards Federation membership.
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Apr 2, 2020 15:45
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Epicurius posted:Isn't that also one of the big carrots of Federation membership, that you get access to Federation technology? The help that the Federation is giving the Bajorans isn't disinterested. They want the Bajoran government to join. So they're giving Bajor enough to stabilize their economy and government with the promise of more to come if the Bajorans start moving towards Federation membership. Bajor's problem is they just see it as the carrot before the stick of being entrapped in Federation membership and trading one kind of enslavement for another.
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Apr 2, 2020 15:47
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man ds9 was such a good show.
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Apr 2, 2020 16:07
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Neddy Seagoon posted:Bajor's problem is they just see it as the carrot before the stick of being entrapped in Federation membership and trading one kind of enslavement for another. They're not 100% wrong. Anyway, if it helps, the writers of DS9 (and TNG) hated the idea of replicators and had some of the same problems posters have mentioned. When you give everybody a magic box that can make anything you want it makes storytelling a lot harder. Epicurius fucked around with this message at 16:13 on Apr 2, 2020 |
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Apr 2, 2020 16:07
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Mulaney Power Move posted:The Federation does give them some kind of industrial replicator (forget whether it was one or two) as noted in the episode where Eddington reveals he' s a filthy terrorist. The episode revolves around securing the transfer of two industrial replicators to Cardassia and Kira makes the point at the beginning that Cardassians are getting more than Bajor did and Sisko is like, "you were just one planet." You would think the Federation would be more interested in helping the victims of a totalitarian regime rather than assisting a totalitarian regime they were literally at war with a few years ago and are still in a cold war with but meh.
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Apr 2, 2020 16:11
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Xenocides posted:You would think the Federation would be more interested in helping the victims of a totalitarian regime rather than assisting a totalitarian regime they were literally at war with a few years ago and are still in a cold war with but meh. Well the Federation is all about helping out their enemies in the hopes that in doing so they won't be anymore.
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Apr 2, 2020 16:17
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Eighties ZomCom posted:Well the Federation is all about helping out their enemies in the hopes that in doing so they won't be anymore. That is fine but if resources are limited you help the victims before you help the oppressors.
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Apr 2, 2020 16:19
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Xenocides posted:That is fine but if resources are limited you help the victims before you help the oppressors. They did offer help to the Bajorans, but they were mostly turned down as has been stated before.
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Apr 2, 2020 16:21
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Xenocides posted:That is fine but if resources are limited you help the victims before you help the oppressors. This was season 4 and at this point Cardassians were victims of Klingon aggression and had a treaty with Bajor after Bashir turned Bareil into a dickless robot so he could negotiate and Winn take all the credit. This was also when the writers wanted to turn Dukat into a good guy.
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Apr 2, 2020 17:07
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Eighties ZomCom posted:Well the Federation is all about helping out their enemies in the hopes that in doing so they won't be anymore. Until the Synth attack on Mars turned everyone into post 9-11 USA
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Apr 2, 2020 17:09
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Epicurius posted:They're not 100% wrong. 
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Apr 2, 2020 17:18
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Watching The Orville Season 2 right now after a viewing hiatus. It is striking how much better Orville is than Picard. Just... in every respect. I had a vague notion that the Orville was better but I hadn't seen an episode in nearly a year. Watching them side by side makes Picard look like a pile of puke.
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Apr 3, 2020 03:24
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Speaking of better yhan Picard. I was disappointed how it turned out but wanted a Star Trek fix so I started watching DS9 again. I know around here the going opinion is that the first season is a little rough but I think it's honestly really good. I mean there isn't much of a over arching plot and there hasn't been any super stand out episodes yet but everyone is already their characters and it feels really good. I mean except for Bashir's legendary thirst for any warm hole but even that is less offensive than I remeber. (It's stiil p cringy)
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Apr 3, 2020 03:37
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MrTargetPractice posted:Speaking of better yhan Picard. I was disappointed how it turned out but wanted a Star Trek fix so I started watching DS9 again. I know around here the going opinion is that the first season is a little rough but I think it's honestly really good. I mean there isn't much of a over arching plot and there hasn't been any super stand out episodes yet but everyone is already their characters and it feels really good. I mean except for Bashir's legendary thirst for any warm hole but even that is less offensive than I remeber. (It's stiil p cringy) Duet stands out for me not just for season 1, but the entire show. It's a simple detective episode by design but when you have Harris Yulin delivering with his powerful style and Nana Visitor transitioning from anger to empathy, it's an episode that can happily work entirely on it's own, plus add some weight and development for the entire series. Kira starts off as such an aggressive character, only letting her guard down when it comes to her religion, but this episode always stood out to me as a huge development point for her character. Plus Nana is just amazing. It's design contrasts with Picard a lot, which is as series so heavily reliant on sequential viewing and mystery box story telling for it to form any level of coherence. Even if that coherence is a toddler smearing crayons on a wall. DS9 was so good for getting quality guest actors and letting them use their craft to help carry the show. snickothemule fucked around with this message at 03:57 on Apr 3, 2020 |
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Apr 3, 2020 03:54
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snickothemule posted:Duet stands out for me not just for season 1, but the entire show. It's really, really, good television, even if you compare it to other shows and genres. It's a stand-out episode. The lower-budget ST episodes where they had to rely on more character and less spectacle were almost always stellar shows. Drumhead is another.
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Apr 3, 2020 04:15
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Applewhite posted:Watching The Orville Season 2 right now after a viewing hiatus. After the big reveal on what scares the Romulans, I can't help but think someone shopped around a Mass Effect show and wound up dressing it up as Star Trek to get it funded. Either that or someone earnestly thought they could sneak the verbatim plot of Mass Effect 1 past an audience of sci-fi nerds undetected.
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Apr 3, 2020 04:29
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Blistex posted:It's really, really, good television, even if you compare it to other shows and genres. It's a stand-out episode. The lower-budget ST episodes where they had to rely on more character and less spectacle were almost always stellar shows. Drumhead is another. The plot of Drumhead later recycled for the Battlestar Galactica episode "Litmus."
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Apr 3, 2020 04:37
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snickothemule posted:Duet stands out for me not just for season 1, but the entire show. It's a simple detective episode by design but when you have Harris Yulin delivering with his powerful style and Nana Visitor transitioning from anger to empathy, it's an episode that can happily work entirely on it's own, plus add some weight and development for the entire series. Kira starts off as such an aggressive character, only letting her guard down when it comes to her religion, but this episode always stood out to me as a huge development point for her character. Plus Nana is just amazing. I haven't even gotten that far yet and it really stands in stark contrast to Picard's wet fart videogame plot. The last episode I watch was the immortal prison hell world. It ended fairly grim but still had more optimism than anything CBS has shat out in the last couple years.
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Apr 3, 2020 04:55
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Move along home is actually a really fun episode despite all its production problems behind the scenes and establishes characters pretty well
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Apr 3, 2020 04:59
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Season 1 is fun and good.
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Apr 3, 2020 05:19
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Finished up my DS9 rewatch. Too bad amazon dropped the ball on Babylon 5, now would be a great time to watch Confessions and Lamentations again. 
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Apr 3, 2020 08:12
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DS9 has the strongest first season of any incarnation of Trek, and it’s not even close. Pretty much everything in it is useful to the development of the entire series.
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Apr 3, 2020 10:03
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Why wouldn't O'brien just see the station's awesome counselor, Sir Not Appearing in This Picture
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Apr 3, 2020 15:57
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Apr 3, 2020 18:58
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Neddy Seagoon posted:After the big reveal on what scares the Romulans, I can't help but think someone shopped around a Mass Effect show and wound up dressing it up as Star Trek to get it funded. Also why would AI scare the Romulans but not the Vulcans, who share a common ancestor?
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Apr 3, 2020 19:12
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Cause the Romulans are the ones who found the scary alien probe
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Apr 3, 2020 19:19
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John Wick of Dogs posted:Cause the Romulans are the ones who found the scary alien probe Oh. I guess I should watch the episode. I stopped watching after 7 of 9 killed those people.
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Apr 3, 2020 19:24
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I like how both Star Trek shows decided they'd have their own little AI apocalypse at the same time, completely independently. Good to see there are still lots of original ideas at CBS
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Apr 3, 2020 19:25
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Eighties ZomCom posted:Though you would think that by the time Shakaar became prime minister they'd be more willing to ask the Federation for that kind of stuff since they were desperate to join at that point. Bajor also had the problem of losing their entire administrative class. If you were a mayor or whatever during the occupation then you were a filthy collaborator and nobody likes you. If you were in the Resistance you only had to manage a small resistance cell, never a large population. Kids mostly seemed to get on the job training, not formal education. The collaborators probably still had schools for their own kids, but nobody likes them and besides those schools probably had a pro-cardassian bias that would leave graduates saying things like, "Dukat wasn't perfect, but he made the trains run on time" or whatever. The only experienced administrators left working would be collaborators who were also secretly in the resistance, and even those would just be local guys, not guys with experience managing an entire planet. poo poo is hosed because their ability to work together in large groups and trust people you didn't grow up with was lost during the occupation. Every lovely little region is out for itself. That's the sort of thing that takes generations to fix.
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Apr 3, 2020 22:43
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Also, important detail, Bajorans suck and will fight unless a cloud spanks them for doing it
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Apr 3, 2020 22:45
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Pick posted:Also, important detail, Bajorans suck and will fight unless a cloud spanks them for doing it They are a quarrelsome people.
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Apr 3, 2020 22:55
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Facebook Aunt posted:They are a quarrelsome people. youvejustmadeanenemyforlife.gif with forehead crinkles
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Apr 3, 2020 23:00
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