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Absurd Alhazred posted:My hope is that the crash course in remote work will open up avenues to some types of workers that weren't around earlier; no more need for relocation to jump ship to a company in another state/country. I think you will see more remote work locally but not sure it will translate to long distance remote. I think you will see HR push back to go from operating in 1 state to 4 or 5 if you made that switch. I know plenty of companies do it and maybe there will be more tools available but it does get tricky. How do local laws apply, does the insurance transfer to that state, etc. I hope I am wrong though.
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Apr 2, 2020 17:27
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Would it be worth making a new thread or temporarily changing the scope of this one to include strategies for "getting the least hosed by recruiters/hiring managers when you have no BATNA"? If those strategies even exist. On another note, if anyone is getting hosed right now and has experience with regulatory and/or technical writing in the medical field (or another strongly regulated industry) PM me because I currently work for a company that makes ventilators and might be able to point you towards a job opening- our department is one of the few that is desperate for new hires at the moment. We switched to a 100% remote policy several months before all of the COVID-19 stuff, so you'll be able to keep your job wherever you live once all of this is over. We pay extremely well for the area, but it may just be "average" if you live in a very-high COL area.
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Apr 2, 2020 17:27
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spwrozek posted:I think you will see more remote work locally but not sure it will translate to long distance remote. I think you will see HR push back to go from operating in 1 state to 4 or 5 if you made that switch. I know plenty of companies do it and maybe there will be more tools available but it does get tricky. How do local laws apply, does the insurance transfer to that state, etc. I hope I am wrong though. There are several companies (professional employer organizations) that provide HR services as a co-employers for smaller businesses who are already well situated to deal with this. Absurd Alhazred fucked around with this message at 17:39 on Apr 2, 2020 |
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Apr 2, 2020 17:36
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Absurd Alhazred posted:There are several companies (professional employer organizations) that provide HR services as a co-employers for smaller businesses who are already well situated to deal with this. I totally agree with you. But whether companies want to deal with it or not is the question. Only one example but even though we operate in 10 states wr will not allow people to be based in states we are not currently in. Maybe that will change, maybe not. We have tried to keep people who had to move away before with no luck. We have 15,000 employees though. Like I said I am hopeful but I wouldn't be surprised to not see that much change from a long distance perspective.
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Apr 2, 2020 17:50
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spwrozek posted:I totally agree with you. But whether companies want to deal with it or not is the question. Companies who aren't set in their ways like this are going to have an advantage in getting quality labor, I would think.
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Apr 2, 2020 17:56
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spwrozek posted:Your business has to exist as of February 15th so that will not work. Dang, there was a lot of fine print I missed.
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Apr 2, 2020 18:17
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Ultimate Mango posted:Dang, there was a lot of fine print I missed. It is pretty hard to navigate it all. This is only of the better summaries I have seen. My partner has been working all week on what to do for her business, crazy stuff. https://www.reddit.com/r/smallbusin...tm_source=share
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Apr 2, 2020 18:23
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m0therfux0r posted:Would it be worth making a new thread or temporarily changing the scope of this one to include strategies for "getting the least hosed by recruiters/hiring managers when you have no BATNA"? If those strategies even exist. Unfortunately this thread is going to be out-of-scope for job hunting for a while, since if you're unemployed you have no BATNA, thus are not negotiating. For the foreseeable future the question for job seekers will not be "how do I get more money from my prospective employer?" but "how do I get a job offer at all?" That you're going to jump on the first offer you get and gratefully accept a rock bottom low salary will be a given. The Resume/Interview Thread is going to be a lot more relevant to an unemployed job seeker than this one. So, what can you do to improve your chances of Finding A Job? The biggest factor, as it has always been and will always be, is networking. But if you don't already have an established network, it's mostly too late to build one now. People form new personal bonds in person, not online. One thing you absolutely should do if you can is reach out to those old friends/acquaintances you haven't really talked to in years with a "hey, how are you doing? This is some crazy poo poo, right?" Especially if they're extroverts they'll likely welcome all chance for human interaction. You never know who might end up in a position to do you a solid six months from now. The only really useful new thing you can do now to help yourself is get some Dale Carnegie books and such, and obsessively work at understanding how charisma works and train yourself in it, as best you can. Being likeable is a huge boon to your networking and will even help you in screens and interviews (people shouldn't factor how much they personally like a candidate into hiring decisions, but we are all prone to it, and some people are *very* prone to it). One thing I think would be really cool and helpful is if those of us who are or have been hiring managers could volunteer to help job seeking goons by setting up mock screens/interviews on Zoom or whatever, and give useful feedback, to help them practice and improve their interviewing skills. I would be willing to do this, would anyone else?
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Apr 2, 2020 20:03
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Eric the Mauve posted:Unfortunately this thread is going to be out-of-scope for job hunting for a while, since if you're unemployed you have no BATNA, thus are not negotiating. For the foreseeable future the question for job seekers will not be "how do I get more money from my prospective employer?" but "how do I get a job offer at all?" That you're going to jump on the first offer you get and gratefully accept a rock bottom low salary will be a given. The Resume/Interview Thread is going to be a lot more relevant to an unemployed job seeker than this one. There are absolutely things you can do to increase offers even with low/no BATNA, this thread is way too focused on that. When I'm hiring and I get a counter I consider things like what I think will get someone to stick around for a while, what is fair, and what I can sell up the chain (since 5-10k in salary doesn't really move the needle for my team one way or another). What I don't do is sit down with some probability of them having another offer or giving some cut-throat "Take it or Leave it". Most of the time negotiations are pretty chill and in good faith all around. I really dislike how this thread focuses on "Winning" a negotiation over getting people in a good place long-term. While the chances of getting a gigantic offer are low, I think people can still get good advice on how to approach recruiters to make sure your at least getting market, how to get an extra 10% or so out of an offer (which adds up over a career) and such. There's still value here.
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Apr 2, 2020 20:39
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Lockback posted:There are absolutely things you can do to increase offers even with low/no BATNA, this thread is way too focused on that. When I'm hiring and I get a counter I consider things like what I think will get someone to stick around for a while, what is fair, and what I can sell up the chain (since 5-10k in salary doesn't really move the needle for my team one way or another). What I don't do is sit down with some probability of them having another offer or giving some cut-throat "Take it or Leave it". Most of the time negotiations are pretty chill and in good faith all around. I really dislike how this thread focuses on "Winning" a negotiation over getting people in a good place long-term. I think that the themes we reiterate are: - Know your BATNA - Bad faith negotiators will be bad faith employers - Know when you've won Yes, we do focus on people "winning" a negotiation, because it's a zero sum game and for virtually all of this iteration of this thread's life it's been a laborer's market. But we also focus on understanding when any one individual has won, and not trying to squeeze every last drop of blood from the stone. Precisely because THAT is a losing strategy. So what are you raging against in particular?
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Apr 3, 2020 19:38
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Lockback posted:There are absolutely things you can do to increase offers even with low/no BATNA, this thread is way too focused on that.
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Apr 4, 2020 01:25
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Dik Hz posted:There are absolutely things you can do without a BATNA, but those things aren't negotiating. Those are bluffing, begging, and lying. Given that this is the negotiation thread, I can understand why we focus on negotiation in here. Maybe the thread could pivot towards how to create leverage in a collapsing economy.
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Apr 4, 2020 01:37
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Dik Hz posted:There are absolutely things you can do without a BATNA, but those things aren't negotiating. Those are bluffing, begging, and lying. Given that this is the negotiation thread, I can understand why we focus on negotiation in here. "(Leaving a 50k job for a new job you really want): Hey, I think we're a good fit, thank you for for 80k job offer. Given the market, I'd like to counter 85k. (will still secretly take the 80k offer if they say no)" "Company XYZ wants to know how much I am looking for. I'd take this job for a number that is probably well under market because my BATNA sucks and this job looks fun/what I want to do/has benefits I need, but I'd like some advice on what to do to get as close to my market rate as I can." Those situations ARE still negotiating and something people should still look to do (when applicable). They are not begging. People need to learn those skills, especially now. Dwight Eisenhower posted:
That immediately after your post basic job negotiation that lots of people will have to do was derided as "Begging, bluffing and lying" and NOT negotiation because it wasn't using a very specific process.
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Apr 4, 2020 15:00
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Lockback posted:"(Leaving a 50k job for a new job you really want): Hey, I think we're a good fit, thank you for for 80k job offer. Given the market, I'd like to counter 85k. I think your definition of 'negotiation' includes a lot of activities that are broadly rejected as 'negotiation' in this thread. It sounds like you think 'talking about money', 'asking for more than offered', and 'opening bids' are negotiation. Those skills might be useful with an imbalanced employer pool, and as they relate to getting a job and a lot of what we talk about is negotiating the context of getting a job, I can see why you're interested in bringing them into the mix. But apart from 'opening bids', they aren't negotiation, because they aren't a transaction that either party might walk away from. Part of the usefulness of this thread is getting people out of the mentality to be grateful for a job or to feel gratitude to their employer. Trying to figure out a good 'opening bid' is a part of negotiation, but it's not a conclusion. Saying 'I'd like 85k' as a counteroffer to 80k is bluffing if you'll take the 80k. It's probably a good bluff because all the outcomes of it are better than just taking the 80k, but it's a bluff. Saying "I'd like a raise please" is begging. Saying "I'd like a raise please, because you've been getting such a good deal on my labor for reasons X, Y, and Z" is also begging. Calling these things out as not negotiating is useful because people need to hunt for leverage, and most importantly, understand when they do not have leverage so that they don't engage in the kind of behaviors that need leverage to succeed.
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Apr 4, 2020 20:53
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Being offered 80K and countering 85K is definitely negotiating (probably better to counter 90K though and give them room to come up). But--while Lockback's company might be a wonderful exception (and Lockback himself definitely is), when most companies are offering at 80K to a person they know has been unemployed for months, and also have five other unemployed, reasonably qualified applicants besides, they're not going to come up. Asking for more won't hurt you but 90% of the time it's going to be a take-it-or-leave-it if they know you have no BATNA. We know this because we all saw it during 2008-2010. I'm confident the economy will eventually turn around just like it did a decade ago, but in the short-medium term lots of people are just going to be scrambling to secure any job at any price. (Obviously, extremely skilled and experienced people, the top 10% of the job market, will always be in high demand, but unfortunately that's not most of us.) You can always lie about having another offer to consider, but that's a less believable lie in a world with double digit unemployment (and even if they believe you, they might not care; they might just shrug and offer the 80K to the runner-up applicant.) Eric the Mauve fucked around with this message at 21:46 on Apr 4, 2020 |
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Apr 4, 2020 21:43
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Hey thread, my co is rolling out a 10% pay cut instead of layoffs (as the official line goes). I’m in Canada and our labour laws require consent to cut pay. I’m wondering if anyone has been or is in a similar situation and if there is any good advice or even commiseration. It is fortunate that we’re not being laid off and are able to work from home, and the plan is to repay us 110% (but in RSUs that vest in 2 years time, which is lovely). Anyway anyone’s company doing similar things?
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Apr 10, 2020 00:45
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priznat posted:Hey thread, my co is rolling out a 10% pay cut instead of layoffs (as the official line goes). I’m in Canada and our labour laws require consent to cut pay. I’m wondering if anyone has been or is in a similar situation and if there is any good advice or even commiseration. If you are able to work from home, you are still doing the exact job that you were doing before, to the best of circumstances. The fact that they're immediately trying to replace your pay with bullshit non-compensation compensation is very suspicious to me. I would not accept any pay cut. Do you have a union? Do you have a way of reaching out to your colleagues that is not monitored by work?
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Apr 10, 2020 01:06
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Just because he can work doesn't mean the business is pulling the same revenue. You can say it is lovely to cut 10% pay but you would have to know the cash flow situation. My entire company of 13k people is working still. We are pushing out hundreds of millions of dollars of investment since revenue has cratered. I expect no bonus, no raise, no 401k match this year. But hey, I am still getting paid.
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Apr 10, 2020 01:25
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Yeah the CEO is presenting it as a way to be able to cover the debts due to lower orders and orders being withdrawn etc. All reqs are frozen, attrition in effect. The company is about 18k people or so. I’m going to accept it as I’m concerned about the alternative and I’m not irreplaceable. It may get kind of ugly if some people don’t, though. We’re not union and I’m salaried (IC validation systems). I’m hearing some old school types are pushing for layoffs instead, as it was a fairly common thing at the company we were in prior to being acquired. Business quarter bad? Cut 10%! Etc. That seems a lot worse to me personally.
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Apr 10, 2020 01:46
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priznat posted:I’m hearing some old school types are pushing for layoffs instead, as it was a fairly common thing at the company we were in prior to being acquired. Business quarter bad? Cut 10%! Etc. That seems a lot worse to me personally. Yeah, I think it's a bad precedent for you to set.
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Apr 10, 2020 01:51
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priznat posted:Hey thread, my co is rolling out a 10% pay cut instead of layoffs (as the official line goes). I’m in Canada and our labour laws require consent to cut pay. I’m wondering if anyone has been or is in a similar situation and if there is any good advice or even commiseration. Do they require consent to lay you off? If not then your options are "you can consent to a pay cut or you can be
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Apr 10, 2020 02:01
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Eric the Mauve posted:Do they require consent to lay you off? If not then your options are "you can consent to a pay cut or you can be Yeah I don’t think so, which makes the whole thing kind of stupid and annoying. It would have to be with severance of course but not something I want to do. It’s going to be interesting to see who plays chicken.
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Apr 10, 2020 02:09
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priznat posted:Hey thread, my co is rolling out a 10% pay cut instead of layoffs (as the official line goes). I’m in Canada and our labour laws require consent to cut pay. I’m wondering if anyone has been or is in a similar situation and if there is any good advice or even commiseration. My company also just announced "temporary" 10% pay cuts and bonus holds (not that we'd hit targets, anyway) through end of summer, in addition to a huge round of layoffs and furloughs. I'm certainly not happy about it, but it's better than being laid off -- which is presumably the alternative. I'm going to let it play out a little bit more before panicking, but it does make me start to think about new jobs unfortunately. Pretty poo poo time to be looking for a new job, though.
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Apr 10, 2020 02:11
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If you are an exempt employee, temporary pay cuts are usually not legal, though they can just let you go instead. With new unemployment wages people should do the math. If you are not exempt, well tough poo poo. In happy news we are getting our bonuses next week and they even are well above target for the second year in a row. We've got a soft hiring freeze right now which kinda sucks because I JUST moved a guy to full time engineering last week and now I can't replace him. Not terrible since we're still decently staffed but I pushed to get it done as a favor and now it's one of those "no good deeds" things.
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Apr 10, 2020 05:11
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priznat posted:Hey thread, my co is rolling out a 10% pay cut instead of layoffs (as the official line goes). I’m in Canada and our labour laws require consent to cut pay. I’m wondering if anyone has been or is in a similar situation and if there is any good advice or even commiseration. not in Canada but we took progressive deferrals based on salary. it's a small company and I know our cash position, so I believe it's necessary. Since we are  we also did not want to lay off people and force them off health insurance / on to COBRA in the middle of a global health crisis.
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Apr 10, 2020 12:37
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So I'm very fortunate to have gotten an offer and accepted it from the company I really wanted to go to-- following being laid off. (And to add to my 'luck', the CEO sent out an email on my first day that they were freezing future hiring for the quarter, but would still honor current offers.) Anyway, I wanted to comment on my negotiation process, or lack of: I'm an electrical engineer with a MSEE and about 9.5 years out of grad school. At my previous employer at the end I think my base salary was about $106,000, plus some small bonuses that equated to about 10%. That's not including RSUs, and SPP which was 5%, and then moved to 10% (15% discount, purchased twice a year, blah blah blah). Anyway, to make a long story shorter, I was told they wanted to make an offer and I tried to do some basic research on salary ranges at the new company. According to GlassDoor for the title/grade I was being offered, it appeared that the upper bounds for that pay grade were between $125-130,000. The HR rep gives his spiel and eventually asks me for a number. I politely decline and ask for an offer commensurate with my skill set, the pay grade, yada yada yada market value. I basically was shot down very quickly and told that if I was pushing back like that, it could go poorly for me, and he basically said that typical ranges of 'asks' were between 6-12% above current base salaries. So, I just asked for $135,000. He quickly countered, "Oh, in that case I think we can do $145,000 base." This caught me by surprise, but I definitely couldn't decline it, and unfortunately I knew I didn't have any other offers and this was the job I wanted to go to. So, not BATNA, no leverage. So, on one hand, it feels bad to basically fail in the negotiation process and say the first number, but I'm very fortunate to have not gotten hosed by them. Although I take it I asked too low. I walked away with a base of $145,000 and $34,000 that vests over 3 years.
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Apr 12, 2020 02:12
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MetaJew posted:I basically was shot down very quickly and told that if I was pushing back like that, it could go poorly for me, and he basically said that typical ranges of 'asks' were between 6-12% above current base salaries. So, I just asked for $135,000. He quickly countered, "Oh, in that case I think we can do $145,000 base." This caught me by surprise, but I definitely couldn't decline it, and unfortunately I knew I didn't have any other offers and this was the job I wanted to go to. So, not BATNA, no leverage. That's really great that they didn't punish you for coming in way lower than their initial expectation and then laugh and count stacked gold coins on their desk. I really should've jumped ship a while back, but I'm a little bit Stockholm'd in my job that I enjoy but am way underpaid on. They're slowly bringing me up to market, but slooooooowly and it's been that way for years, plus a very late promotion that I'm still kinda bitter about. Trying to accelerate the next one. The biggest reason I haven't left is again, I do enjoy my job and my team at work, my commute is under 10 minutes, and even while still grossly underpaid for my engineering experience, I already managed to pay down off my small house, and now I save a large portion of my income. So I'm not hurting enough to really seek anything out big and upturn my life. Not right now, anyway.
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Apr 12, 2020 05:11
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Congrats! Yeah knowing market rate and business rate is a big part of things. Don't feel bad that your jobs market was higher than you realized. You now know that your probably in the lower end, which can help you around next promotion or job change. Nice bump considering everything that's going on!
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Apr 12, 2020 06:14
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SpelledBackwards posted:That's really great that they didn't punish you for coming in way lower than their initial expectation and then laugh and count stacked gold coins on their desk. I really should've jumped ship a while back, but I'm a little bit Stockholm'd in my job that I enjoy but am way underpaid on. They're slowly bringing me up to market, but slooooooowly and it's been that way for years, plus a very late promotion that I'm still kinda bitter about. Trying to accelerate the next one. Yeah, seriously. My only basis for salaries this "high" is a friend that jumped ship to Amazon. We both worked at the same company, but he left voluntarily about a year ago. Their offer was ridiculous: he got a bump from about $103,000 to $150,000 base, something like $80,000 sign on, and nearly 80 shares of AMZN RSUs. So in that regard, I was under the impression that Amazon just paid disproportionately more than any of the other hardware engineering companies in town, and I thought I'd get laughed out of the room if I had asked for something like that. I totally understand where you're coming from to an extent. My commute to my previous job was maybe 11-15 minutes, the people were all generally pleasant to work with, but the work I was getting assigned was really pigeonholing me to a particular skillset and while I would get told, "Next project will be different" I never got the assignments I wanted. But as a consequence of believing the lies and staying around, it made it harder and harder to leave. So, if your current job makes you happy and you get the work you want, I would still encourage you to interview around and try to get some offers. At a minimum you'll get experience doing it (which I had very little), and if you get some external offers, you could possibly use that as leverage to up your pay at your current employer.
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Apr 12, 2020 06:51
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I anchored high this week for shits and giggles. Like as much as I could say without laughing high. Still got a hard sell on the company and the stock options (was a pre-revenue startup). Big shocker, I didn’t get a call back, despite knowing the CRO.
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Apr 17, 2020 04:34
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Ultimate Mango posted:I anchored high this week for shits and giggles. Like as much as I could say without laughing high. Still got a hard sell on the company and the stock options (was a pre-revenue startup). I too want to one day "north of a million" with a straight face and without triggering the fear response. First time I had a recruiter say that to me in the range I had to put myself on mute. I didn't make it to an on-site though. Anyone know current rates for senior programmers at post revenue pre ipo startups in SF? I'm expecting an offer to come in, but don't have anything other than levels.fyi and I'm currently in a different market. Probably I'll just ask for 20% over the sticker to end my other calls early. 
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May 1, 2020 10:15
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leper khan posted:Anyone know current rates for senior programmers at post revenue pre ipo startups in SF? I'm expecting an offer to come in, but don't have anything other than levels.fyi and I'm currently in a different market. Senior 2/IC4/however that company does it should be 170-200 ish. I'd guess Sr/IC3 should be in the 150-180 area for bands. Almost everyone is going Radford now. So you can see if anyone has a subscription you can use/pull data for you.
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May 1, 2020 15:40
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Motronic posted:Senior 2/IC4/however that company does it should be 170-200 ish. I'd guess Sr/IC3 should be in the 150-180 area for bands. So the HR person let out that I was the best candidate and she would be surprised if I didn't get an offer. Based on her tone, either she's really good at using that as a negotiation tactic, or she's earnestly trying to get ahead of paperwork. Regardless, I have an opportunity to give a number or be a curmudgeon and not give one. The highest base I see from H1B data is 170, with a couple more around 160. I know the results from my interviews were very positive, but I'm not sure whether they're leveling me at IC3 or IC4. Thinking of throwing out 190. Thoughts? This is where the thread regulars tell me not to name a number probably.
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May 5, 2020 01:11
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leper khan posted:So the HR person let out that I was the best candidate and she would be surprised if I didn't get an offer. Based on her tone, either she's really good at using that as a negotiation tactic, or she's earnestly trying to get ahead of paperwork.
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May 5, 2020 01:33
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So I'm looking at the second round of interviews for a position in Denver. They mentioned a 60k salary, yearly discretionary bonus of about 10%, and deployment pay that essentially doubles the salary per week, but varies from year to year (could be two weeks, could be four months). No relocation provided. I'd like to push the salary to 65k if possible due to cost of living out there, should I start with 70k as a counter or go higher? The averages for salaries in my position in that area are between 55k and 70k depending on the site used. If they say no on the salary I'm going to try to negotiate a raise based on gaining a cert I plan to take this year - anyone have experience with something along those lines and have any thoughts besides "get any agreement in the offer letter?"
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May 5, 2020 01:52
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Parallelwoody posted:60k in Denver What's your work history like? What's the actual role? This sounds preposterously low, especially in a city as expensive as Denver. This would be unimpressive even in the south.
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May 5, 2020 02:01
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How in the hell are you going to survive on $60K a year in Denver? Do you have relatives you're going to live with rent-free?
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May 5, 2020 02:05
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Parallelwoody posted:So I'm looking at the second round of interviews for a position in Denver. They mentioned a 60k salary, yearly discretionary bonus of about 10%, and deployment pay that essentially doubles the salary per week, but varies from year to year (could be two weeks, could be four months). No relocation provided. I'd like to push the salary to 65k if possible due to cost of living out there, should I start with 70k as a counter or go higher? The averages for salaries in my position in that area are between 55k and 70k depending on the site used. If they say no on the salary I'm going to try to negotiate a raise based on gaining a cert I plan to take this year - anyone have experience with something along those lines and have any thoughts besides "get any agreement in the offer letter?"
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May 5, 2020 02:05
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rt4 posted:What's your work history like? What's the actual role? This sounds preposterously low, especially in a city as expensive as Denver. This would be unimpressive even in the south. A little over 3 years in HR and a lot of restaurant work prior to that - this would be for an HR Generalist role. I'm not looking to buy a house or anything as that would obviously not be an option, but from what I looked at it seemed like I could get a decent rental in the $1500 a month range. By the sound of things though I should stick to the south (I'm in TN now).
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May 5, 2020 02:15
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You'd be spending almost a third of your before-tax income on rent, and we haven't even talked about parking, gas for what will presumably be a lengthy commute, and the general cost of stuff in Denver. Yikes.
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May 5, 2020 02:18
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