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"if you're against this pledge you're a TERF" is exactly why that pledge was dumb. Keir has a clear, supportive stance on trans rights and the Gender Reform Act. There's plenty to get mad at Keir for, this is not it.
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Apr 4, 2020 15:29
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Stormgale posted:I mean if signing it meant so little in commitment then yes, not signing it means something. I've not signed it, does this mean I'm magically anti-trans?
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Apr 4, 2020 15:29
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would you if it was presented to you
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Apr 4, 2020 15:29
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Get everyone to send every remotely possible pledge to Kier now so we can use his signings and omissions to sign as a means of deducing the Labour manifesto years before its launch.
Azza Bamboo fucked around with this message at 15:34 on Apr 4, 2020 |
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Apr 4, 2020 15:31
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EmptyVessel posted:I've not signed it, does this mean I'm magically anti-trans? Would you if it was presented to you, and are you someone running for labor leadership where multiple other candidates have? quote:Thank you for this question - I know it’s a really important topic on Mumsnet and for parents. Also the bolded bit in his answer on mumsnet is hedging, and you can argue it's just avoiding a difficult question but considering the two sides are LGBT people and raging transphobes I am not a fan of hedging.
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Apr 4, 2020 15:34
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Has Starmer ever admitted to being wrong in 2016 I wonder?
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Apr 4, 2020 15:34
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Also all rumours are that Keir wants to fill the shadow cabinet with new intake MPs. Obviously not great that he'll be getting rid of people we like, but it's a drat sight better than bringing in Cooper, Kinnock, Benn etc. OwlFancier posted:Has Starmer ever admitted to being wrong in 2016 I wonder? Would this help or hurt his position?
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Apr 4, 2020 15:34
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Dabir posted:would you if it was presented to you Thought thread consensus was that signing petitions was a performative waste of time, how is this different?
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Apr 4, 2020 15:35
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jabby posted:Saying you won't engage in party-political point-scoring doesn't mean you don't do it. He could have maybe led with the positive! Why start by saying what he's not going to do? Weak.
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Apr 4, 2020 15:36
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jabby posted:Signing a pledge doesn't mean they'll stick to it, any more than not signing one means they won't. I mean yes obviously but if your argument for why politicians might not sign them is "people might hold them to it" then that's not really a ringing endorsement.
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Apr 4, 2020 15:37
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jabby posted:Also all rumours are that Keir wants to fill the shadow cabinet with new intake MPs. I genuinely doubt he will be able. He doesn't have the membership behind him in the same way Corbyn did and the precedent has been set, if he wanted to do anything that the PLP didn't like I doubt very much he could.
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Apr 4, 2020 15:39
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If you think Labour is poo poo that is great, I can more than believe that folks don't want electoralism and believe it is a hiding to nothing. It's just that that requires a collective response against this shitness, not as individuals but as a collective unit. I hope that this thread remains open to organising outside of the, quite frankly not especially great, confines of the Labour party. But to do that I think we've got to try and actually reach folks. More so than TV and Newspapers do. That isn't going to be easy by any stretch, but it is something I hope we can all do. I don't know exactly how to do this, especially not at the moment, but I do hope that we can do something. I'm volunteering to help the local council at the moment, and I am going to try and make it clear to folk that I do help that it's because I am a socialist and believe in helping others. It's not much of a hope, and we are still not getting out of this alive, but it's better than nothing. I am sorry if this is lovely. I don't like being an arse. Please keep safe folks.
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Apr 4, 2020 15:39
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I hereby formally issue this pledge to the denizens of the thread. Anyone who does not sign it is an anti-semite. https://www.bod.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/Labour-l0-pledges.pdf
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Apr 4, 2020 15:40
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Endjinneer posted:I hereby formally issue this pledge to the denizens of the thread. Anyone who does not sign it is an anti-semite. So what's it like being a massive transphobe?
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Apr 4, 2020 15:40
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Endjinneer posted:I hereby formally issue this pledge to the denizens of the thread. Anyone who does not sign it is an anti-semite. https://twitter.com/dril/status/473265809079693312?lang=en
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Apr 4, 2020 15:42
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EmptyVessel posted:Thought thread consensus was that signing petitions was a performative waste of time, how is this different? so is that a yes or a no
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Apr 4, 2020 15:44
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https://twitter.com/Redistributeth1/status/1246431271535939585/photo/1
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Apr 4, 2020 15:44
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OwlFancier posted:I mean yes obviously but if your argument for why politicians might not sign them is "people might hold them to it" then that's not really a ringing endorsement. That's not my argument. My argument is that pledges should be seen as a campaigning tool rather than as a statement of policy. Generally, they are sticks you try to beat your opponent with. So yes, I want Keir to come out strongly in favour of trans rights and I want him to get elected and put it into practice. But if he figured all signing this pledge would do is bring TERFS down on his head during the campaign then I'm not going to assume that means he opposes trans rights.
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Apr 4, 2020 15:44
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jabby posted:Would this help or hurt his position? Depends what "his position" is, it'd probably hurt him with the people I think he cares about, which is posh liberals, but it'd certainly make me think better of him. jabby posted:That's not my argument. My argument is that pledges should be seen as a campaigning tool rather than as a statement of policy. Generally, they are sticks you try to beat your opponent with. If he's afraid of the latter then I do not think he's going to do the former. If the biggest thing it indicates is his fear of criticism from people he (we are to presume) vehemently disagrees with, then that does not bode well for his role as leader. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 15:47 on Apr 4, 2020 |
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Apr 4, 2020 15:44
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OwlFancier posted:Depends what "his position" is, it'd probably hurt him with the people I think he cares about, which is posh liberals, but it'd certainly make me think better of him. Signing political pledges and coming out as strongly pro-Corbyn are both things that burn political capital for very little benefit. It's great that you want someone who is never afraid to speak his mind, but in high level politics that just doesn't exist. Even Corbyn couldn't keep it up on the national stage and he's incredibly principled. So honestly, I can put up with a leader that plays politics a bit more than Corbyn did. I'm far more interested in what policies they believe in and how likely they are to get into power. If Starmer really does have any socialist tendencies, he has a real chance to try and unite the PLP around some big foundational left-wing policies in a way Corbyn never could.
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Apr 4, 2020 15:58
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Dunno poo poo about what the dude's saying, but interesting: https://twitter.com/andrewflood/status/1246063815508348928
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Apr 4, 2020 15:59
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What the gently caress is this: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-52164358 quote:Mobile phone masts have been torched amid theories linking coronavirus to 5G, despite ministers saying there is no credible evidence to back them. Trin Tragula posted:It's funny how lots of people think this until they're being told anything they do say will be given in evidence, and then they have a quite miraculous Damascene conversion Agreed, lawyers ensuring that defendants get a fair trial should not be regarded as having character defects for doing so. Endjinneer posted:Politicians are untrustworthy, so unless they sign pledges I don't trust them. 
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Apr 4, 2020 16:02
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not having a microwaved spoons burger is too high a price to save thousands of vulnerable lives.. restart the economy! can't wait to get me one of those huge sports direct mugs
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Apr 4, 2020 16:03
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jabby posted:Signing political pledges and coming out as strongly pro-Corbyn are both things that burn political capital for very little benefit. I don't think there is a good disconnect between belief and action, if he believes those things but isn't willing to stand up for them even verbally, what difference does it make? If he is always looking to compromise then what does it matter if he believes the most socialist things possible if what he does is let the blairities have their way? How can he unite the PLP on left wing politics if the whole reason they were against corbyn was because they hate left wing politics? The political right is extremely principled and loud about it, it's just their principles are utter dog poo poo.
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Apr 4, 2020 16:05
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https://twitter.com/PickardJE/status/1246439469244387328?s=20 https://twitter.com/Gabriel_Pogrund/status/1246443091814473733?s=20 Anyone know what Dodds's economic stance is - or if she has one? I liked her as an MEP, saw her speak a couple of times, but have no idea what her economic credentials are like. edit: practically anything would be better than loving Rachel Reaves though
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Apr 4, 2020 16:13
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Dodds had a shadow treasury appointment in the Corbyn Shadow cabinet iirc. It shouldn't be hard to find her economic opinions Home sec is changing hands though. It was a predictable politics play, but it was always going to feel a bit like the bastards won wrt Abbott. Azza Bamboo fucked around with this message at 16:21 on Apr 4, 2020 |
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Apr 4, 2020 16:16
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Dabir posted:so is that a yes or a no To be clear, you're talking about the Labour Campaign for Trans Rights pledges that Starmer didn't sign, and not the LGBT+ Labour (who claim to be Labour's official LGBT+ affiliate) pledges that he did sign? I'd probably sign both, while wondering why we need two, but I also sign petitions so...
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Apr 4, 2020 16:20
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Azza Bamboo posted:Home sec is changing hands though. It was a predictable politics play, but it was always going to feel a bit like the bastards won wrt Abbott. This is an impressive sentence.
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Apr 4, 2020 16:22
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OwlFancier posted:I don't think there is a good disconnect between belief and action, if he believes those things but isn't willing to stand up for them even verbally, what difference does it make? If he is always looking to compromise then what does it matter if he believes the most socialist things possible if what he does is let the blairities have their way? Literally no benefit could come of him standing up and saying "I was wrong to doubt Corbyn in 2016". It's an ideological purity test that would only serve to alienate big parts of the party. I want my politicians to be principled, but I don't want them to throw away their political influence on performative statements. OwlFancier posted:How can he unite the PLP on left wing politics if the whole reason they were against corbyn was because they hate left wing politics? The political right is extremely principled and loud about it, it's just their principles are utter dog poo poo. I honestly think that's a bit reductive. A lot of the PLP hated him because of his left-wing views, but arguably his foreign policy was a lot more of an issue for them than his domestic stuff. I also think a decent chunk genuinely thought he wasn't electable and hated him for that reason, or they just thought he was stupid and a bad politician. Some were probably a lot more scared by how left-wing they thought his views were as opposed to his actual policies. Also, I can believe a lot are fed up with the endless back-biting. So if Starmer appears and offers a slightly lighter version of Corbyn's manifesto, but packaged better and with nicer hair, how many are really going to continue the forever war? Some will, because they are genuinely Tories at heart. But will a majority?
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Apr 4, 2020 16:22
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Stormgale posted:So what's it like being a massive transphobe? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjMPJVmXxV8&t=1448s
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Apr 4, 2020 16:23
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probably better to offer RLB Home, tactically, far away from her GND terrain Starmer has already committed to offering RLB and Nandy roles
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Apr 4, 2020 16:25
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jabby posted:Literally no benefit could come of him standing up and saying "I was wrong to doubt Corbyn in 2016". It's an ideological purity test that would only serve to alienate big parts of the party. I want my politicians to be principled, but I don't want them to throw away their political influence on performative statements. Uh, I mean, I feel like maybe it's important to acknowledge one of labour's best perfomances in many ways, in many years? To just pretend you had no part in opposing it smacks of utter cowardice and desire to personally save face, utterly self serving. jabby posted:I honestly think that's a bit reductive. A lot of the PLP hated him because of his left-wing views, but arguably his foreign policy was a lot more of an issue for them than his domestic stuff. I also think a decent chunk genuinely thought he wasn't electable and hated him for that reason, or they just thought he was stupid and a bad politician. Some were probably a lot more scared by how left-wing they thought his views were as opposed to his actual policies. Why would they do that when they can probably just push him to enact whatever they want because he does not show any indication of being able to stand up for anything? ronya posted:probably better to offer RLB Home, tactically, far away from her GND terrain Then obviously nandy gets home secretary.
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Apr 4, 2020 16:26
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Nah i'm just pointing out your Contribution today has been to be poo poo to a trans woman pointing out transphobia. Also really don't quote a bad youtuber at me, thanks.
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Apr 4, 2020 16:27
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EmptyVessel posted:To be clear, you're talking about the Labour Campaign for Trans Rights pledges that Starmer didn't sign, and not the LGBT+ Labour (who claim to be Labour's official LGBT+ affiliate) pledges that he did sign? ok, cheers
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Apr 4, 2020 16:27
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Azza Bamboo posted:Dodds had a shadow treasury appointment in the Corbyn Shadow cabinet iirc. It shouldn't be hard to find her economic opinions https://twitter.com/bbcquestiontime/status/1202726712653553665 Not too bad. But if she is very tax-centric that may kind of reinforce one of my fears about the whole Starmer project, which is that for all the pledges to stick with the main elements of the policy platform under JC, in fact Starmer himself is not strong on the economy which means we're likely to end up with a lot of stuff about redistribution but nothing about probably the most important part, directed investment/industrial strategy to tackle economic inequalities (class and geographical) at their core. Which is why RLB would be the best pick for shadow chancellor but I guess that's not going to happen.
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Apr 4, 2020 16:28
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Who's business sec? That's where I'd put RLB for the GND stuff. It'd be smart to recognise that as business and not make the blunder of putting her under EFRA
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Apr 4, 2020 16:31
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OwlFancier posted:Uh, I mean, I feel like maybe it's important to acknowledge one of labour's best perfomances in many ways, in many years? To just pretend you had no part in opposing it smacks of utter cowardice and desire to personally save face, utterly self serving. It's really not important for him to publicly apologise for his role in opposing Corbyn. It achieves nothing apart from bringing back disunity. He's been appropriately respectful to Corbyn as outgoing leader and that's enough as far as I'm concerned. OwlFancier posted:Why would they do that when they can probably just push him to enact whatever they want because he does not show any indication of being able to stand up for anything? So far I don't think he's been challenged to stand up for anything in a meaningful way. I'm more than happy for him to dodge bear-traps provided he sticks to his guns when it counts, and that has yet to be tested.
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Apr 4, 2020 16:34
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jabby posted:It's really not important for him to publicly apologise for his role in opposing Corbyn. It achieves nothing apart from bringing back disunity. He's been appropriately respectful to Corbyn as outgoing leader and that's enough as far as I'm concerned. It wasn't just opposing corbyn, it was opposing everyone who worked in that campaign. They were all struggling to undo the damage people like him did. Do you not think that is alienating to just pretend you were on the right side all along? Do you not think that is reflected in the massive number of people who didn't even bother to vote in the leadership election? If he can't even do that how am I supposed to take his "oh we're all in this together" platitudes seriously? We clearly aren't.
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Apr 4, 2020 16:36
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OwlFancier posted:Then obviously nandy gets home secretary. Nandy did not do well enough in the vote to still be a plausible challenger, though Home is the ideal place to slot a potential left-wing rebel because any Labour Home sec is obliged to run Toryward all the time, whilst at the same time certain influential leftie factions can become positively hysterical about these issues
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Apr 4, 2020 16:39
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Anyone been out today? I was expecting loads of people but it was very quiet. No real queue at the supermarket.
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Apr 4, 2020 16:40
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