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During the Villains vs MLA Sad Man’s Parade turned the tides on it’s own and even with One of the most powerful aoe quirks we have ever seen attempting to stop it it barely slowed down. The number of quirks/fighters on the same tier as Geten at the assault on the hero side is straight up Zero. Endeavour is at the hospital and Todoroki is at the city. Plus destroying most of them doesn’t stop them replicating exponentially from the original and any clones that are left. Remember each twice clone can make two more twice clones. 1 2 4 8 16 32 64 and he already outnumbers the heroes. Add in that once he reaches an arbitrarily large number of clones he can then start making Shigaraki, or Dabi or even Mr Compress. Funky Valentine posted:One million clones with guns having the resilience of wet paper doesn't change the fact that one million clones are shooting you with their one million guns. Yeah, except the gun is any other member of the Villains that Twice chooses.
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Apr 6, 2020 04:31
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Just three Shigaraki clones could almost certainly destroy a city with the barest effort. A thousand could reduce the country to literal dust. Twice legitimately falls under the heading of "too dangerous to be left alive" if he wasn't going to surrender.
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Apr 6, 2020 04:34
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Fataxi is cute and funny, I like it. Also, are we going to get a Tokoyami vs Dabi fight?
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Apr 6, 2020 04:37
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MHA is very consistent about heroes and like law enforcement in general being cool and good, but Hawks was trained by a sketchy government program instead of the hero schools or anything so it's really clear that he's significantly more ethically compromised than other heroes. Every other hero in the story would have just subdued Twice but Hawks is the exception and it's something we're obviously supposed to be wary about, especially seeing as how the victim was the most pitiable, selfless and kind member of the villains in a death scene that plays up how selfless and loving he is.
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Apr 6, 2020 04:39
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Shere posted:This is just how a pragmatic, rational, mortally threatened society takes care of potential (and motivated) extreme threats. They eliminate them however they can. If you didn't feel sad when Twice died, and feel wronged by Hawks for it, you're wrong. In terms of lives saved though? I don't know if Twice could really be stopped once he truly got going. His power is horrifying when used as he did against the Liberation Army. Hawks probably "saved" every hero there. I mean, he could also have saved them by not leading them to arrest tens of thousands of members of an opposition political party through an attack that opened with destroying a third of their compound and got crazier from there. Cementoss blew down a ten story wall of the compound that presumably contained hundreds of rooms. I hope no one was in that side of the building. This is only the action of a moral, pragmatic society if you ignore the fact that a hundred thousand people have joined the semiconscious liberation army and are willing to fight. Society has created the problem it is now justified in deploying super assassins to neutralize. And when everyone sees the jack booted super-thugs are willing to attack people who's crimes consist of gathering as part of a political movement, do you think the fringe elements of society will get more or less radical? And what will society be justified to do to those people? I hope someone's trying to deescalate, because right now lunatics like Dabi and Shiragaki are getting a whole lot of credibility for their pro murder agendas. Three days from now when the survivors of this attack are told by Dabi, "This is why we need to garrote anyone associated with heroes," those survivors are going to start doing some scary poo poo.
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Apr 6, 2020 04:40
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KazigluBey posted:I don't think the justifications Hawks was using for why Twice needed to die hold up, both in-universe and out, and I find it weird people are working so hard to justify Hawks' actions when the rest of the manga is extremely light on the lethal force from the Hero/Government side, as far as we've been shown. There’s also never been stakes this high up to this point. Shigaraki’s amassed enough power and resources to match the Pro Heroes with power to spare and planned on getting even stronger before leveling society in just 4 months.
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Apr 6, 2020 04:41
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OK fair enough. I still feel like these are all best-case scenarios and it's really weird how when even first-gen clones of physical powerhouses get taken out super easy (Overhaul arc) suddenly SMP is unstoppable with tremendously weaker clones (who, if you're going for an area attacker as your example, are probably hitting each other too) and all counters are off the table in a way they've never been before. Death is the only option. Someone posted something itt to the effect that Horikoshi had said he had to write Twice off once he realized he'd made him too strong and I'd just put that in the same folder that resulted in other overpowered Quirk fights resulting in disappointing outcomes.TheHan posted:There’s also never been stakes this high up to this point. Shigaraki’s amassed enough power and resources to match the Pro Heroes with power to spare and planned on getting even stronger before leveling society in just 4 months. You mean, the absolute one-sided whipping the small band of extremist mooks is taking in the face of an actual Government action with massed forces, up to now? I'm sure this fight will turn around, but it won't be numbers, it'll be Shiggy waking up with new powers and Giganto getting orders. This whole thing is probably just going to be a jobbing to properly establish Shiggy, which is fine, I guess. KazigluBey fucked around with this message at 04:49 on Apr 6, 2020 |
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Apr 6, 2020 04:43
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TheHan posted:There’s also never been stakes this high up to this point. Shigaraki’s amassed enough power and resources to match the Pro Heroes with power to spare and planned on getting even stronger before leveling society in just 4 months. poo poo dude better just stealth drone strike the targets then
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Apr 6, 2020 04:49
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Junpei posted:Fataxi is cute and funny, I like it. Tokoyami is going to teach Dabi how to be a proper edgelord. Edit: Tokoyami telling Dabi to tone it down would be funny as hell. Electric Phantasm fucked around with this message at 04:54 on Apr 6, 2020 |
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Apr 6, 2020 04:51
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man, this argument sucks!
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Apr 6, 2020 05:05
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We should post earnestly about Mineta instead, I think we're due.
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Apr 6, 2020 05:07
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Shere posted:We should post earnestly about Mineta instead, I think we're due. By giving him a hero licence, the state has decided that Mineta should be allowed to use force as he sees fit.
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Apr 6, 2020 05:08
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as someone who never cared much for superhero stories i'm beginning to suspect that they all suck because they either never confront the inherent fascistic leanings of their premise or they do it in a wrong and stupid way
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Apr 6, 2020 05:09
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Mystic Mongol posted:By giving him a hero licence, the state has decided that Mineta should be allowed to use force as he sees fit. His quirk does seem pretty great for non-lethal takedowns. I guess if you get it stuck to your face things could go pretty bad, but still. If only they could do something about his personality.
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Apr 6, 2020 05:15
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Oxxidation posted:as someone who never cared much for superhero stories i'm beginning to suspect that they all suck because they either never confront the inherent fascistic leanings of their premise or they do it in a wrong and stupid way Boy, they can. We brought up Snyder's Superman earlier, in which wise source of guidance Pa Kent tells Superman he should let people die if he doesn't feel like saving them. Sometimes they can be super great, though. There was a scene in an old Captain America where he's fighting a bunch of Nazi Sewer Mutants in a basement on the way to rescue an old soldier's boyfriend. And while he's fighting them he all, where did these horrible nazi sewer mutants come from, and a sidekick says they've been mutated by Red Skull's evil nazi science. So Captain America realizes these are all just normal american citizens who have been mutated, and he throws down his shield and gives a super patriotic speech about how no matter what evil juices have been pumped into them, they're all still Americans! They can work together to do the right thing, which is part one stop red skull, part two find a cure. And all the mutants say "raaaargh" because they don't have vocal cords any more, but they're so moved by his faith in them that they overcome the mind influencing chemicals and follow him upstairs to fight the Red Skull and save the hostage. That guy's not just a hero. He's a super hero! Take that, hideous skull faced monster, all these hideous fanged sewer monsters are done doing your bidding! gently caress yeah!
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Apr 6, 2020 05:22
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Mystic Mongol posted:I mean, he could also have saved them by not leading them to arrest tens of thousands of members of an opposition political party through an attack that opened with destroying a third of their compound and got crazier from there. Cementoss blew down a ten story wall of the compound that presumably contained hundreds of rooms. I hope no one was in that side of the building. A hundred thousand people make a sizable voting block. A hundred thousand people in a cult make a very very strong voting block. Instead we have a hundred thousand people who chose to decide that just a bit of terrorism and violence was the right thing to do. You can't be ignorant of what happened in MVA at the city, that many people talk, especcially in a cult. Maybe you don't know the extent of how violent the leadership is as a mook, but you have pretty good idea that violence is not only allowed but encouraged both from the cult teachings and from the very public (to the members) events so far. Will the survivors get more radical? The true believers will, most will be scared shitless and at least go underground or try to resume their normal lives if their a nameless mook who isn't on a wanted list. That would be a big win for the rest of law abiding society. Blockhouse posted:poo poo dude better just stealth drone strike the targets then Exactly, they're making a big deal of assaulting a terrorist gathering in order to arrest them rather than just premptively murdering everyone. Mystic Mongol posted:Sometimes they can be super great, though. There was a scene in an old Captain America where he's fighting a bunch of Nazi Sewer Mutants in a basement on the way to rescue an old soldier's boyfriend. And while he's fighting them he all, where did these horrible nazi sewer mutants come from, and a sidekick says they've been mutated by Red Skull's evil nazi science. So Captain America realizes these are all just normal american citizens who have been mutated, and he throws down his shield and gives a super patriotic speech about how no matter what evil juices have been pumped into them, they're all still Americans! They can work together to do the right thing, which is part one stop red skull, part two find a cure. And all the mutants say "raaaargh" because they don't have vocal cords any more, but they're so moved by his faith in them that they overcome the mind influencing chemicals and follow him upstairs to fight the Red Skull and save the hostage. That is incredibly dumb and swing the opposite way on the dumb superhero stories scale.
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Apr 6, 2020 05:27
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yeah that captain america thing sounds pretty darned terrible
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Apr 6, 2020 05:29
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it sounds badass
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Apr 6, 2020 05:30
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Mystic Mongol posted:Vigilantes is so much better, because when Koichi defeats a villain, that villain reintegrates into society, because he's a hero. When Endeavor or Eraserhead or Deku defeats someone, they go to jail, because they're cops. (Vigilantes Eraserhead is a cooler dude) In fairness, the villains in the main comic tend to be much more card-carryingly Evil. No amount of rehab is going to get Stain or All For One or Overhaul to reintegrate into society.
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Apr 6, 2020 05:36
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I guess the key difference is, you think a super hero shoots flames and I think a super hero is inhumanly heroic.
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Apr 6, 2020 05:36
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Shadowlyger posted:In fairness, the villains in the main comic tend to be much more card-carryingly Evil. No amount of rehab is going to get Stain or All For One or Overhaul to reintegrate into society. It makes me wonder how they are going to handle the current villain in Vigilantes cause I would say they are up there at least.
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Apr 6, 2020 05:40
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this argument sucks
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Apr 6, 2020 05:41
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Electric Phantasm posted:It makes me wonder how they are going to handle the current villain in Vigilantes cause I would say they are up there at least. Yeah, Two O'Clock has got to fuckin' go, no matter how great his name is.
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Apr 6, 2020 05:41
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Mystic Mongol posted:I guess the key difference is, you think a super hero shoots flames and I think a super hero is inhumanly heroic. Nah it still sounds dumb as poo poo even in that context
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Apr 6, 2020 05:42
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Oxxidation posted:as someone who never cared much for superhero stories i'm beginning to suspect that they all suck because they either never confront the inherent fascistic leanings of their premise or they do it in a wrong and stupid way For what it's worth, MHA is trying to confront it on some level. There's been a lot of ink spilled in this manga about how hero society is lovely and flawed in numerous ways. The main rogue's gallery of villains is composed of people who almost uniformly have tragic backstories about how at some point society dropped them through the cracks through no fault of their own and things spiraled from there. Even now we keep getting new revelations about lovely aspects of hero society, like how Hawks is apparently a child soldier government intelligence agent/assassin because the government has a program to produce child soldiers.  That said, I think people are getting stuck in circular debates because the current dichotomy is "do you support hero society or do you support the VA", which leads to people flinging accusations of either supporting literal mass murderers or supporting the violent fascist police state. I'm pretty sure we're building up to a rupture in the story where a third way that isn't "well maybe Shigaraki has some good ideas" or "imagine Endeavor's boot grinding a villain's face, forever" will become apparent.
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Apr 6, 2020 05:43
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Remember how this thread thought Deku was going to get in trouble for beating the poo poo out of Gentle? Remember how that didn't happen? This thread sucks at determining the direction of this story.
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Apr 6, 2020 05:48
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Hawks had the choices of killing Twice and ensuring that the heroes would not be annihilated by an infinitely replicating army of quirk users or subduing him nonlethally which would ensure that Dabi incinerated him and Twice escaped to annihilate the heroes, or just ignoring him to fight Dabi ensuring the same result. He really didn't have any reasonable choice but to kill Twice. Twice is great. He's funny, he's cute, he's best friends with the equally great Toga. Twice also works for a mass murdering terrorist (who is also great) and is dedicated to the cause of destroying society as a whole. He was a walking nuclear missile and choosing to leave him alive when he had every intention to unleash his power immediately would have been far worse than killing him, which is still hosed up, but there were no morally clean options available.
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Apr 6, 2020 05:51
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Twice is infinte, so he is both infinitely great and infinitely bad. I am an expert on numbers and this is my accurate mathematical assessment.
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Apr 6, 2020 05:57
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Electric Phantasm posted:It makes me wonder how they are going to handle the current villain in Vigilantes cause I would say they are up there at least. I'm pretty sure he's seen kind of weird proto-nomu experiment made by the doctor and working for AFO. He's probably going to die in a way that the heroes/police never find his body so there will be no evidence leading back to them since Vigilantes takes place before the main series starts and no one knew AFO was still alive at that point.
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Apr 6, 2020 05:57
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Hawks did everything he could to not kill Twice but unfortunately Twice chose to die because he had the hots for Toga, who is underage.
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Apr 6, 2020 06:00
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Electric Phantasm posted:It makes me wonder how they are going to handle the current villain in Vigilantes cause I would say they are up there at least. Knuckleduster is gonna show up and just shoot him with a gun
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Apr 6, 2020 06:01
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Kanos posted:"imagine Endeavor's boot grinding a villain's face, forever" Why do we keep thinking Endeavor is an awful douchebag? We've seen him try to redeem himself like 3 times, already. He's working on being a better father, a better husband, a better hero and a better person? He's admitted his flaws? He's reconciling with his isolated children and wife, slowly?
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Apr 6, 2020 06:13
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Junpei posted:Why do we keep thinking Endeavor is an awful douchebag? We've seen him try to redeem himself like 3 times, already. He's working on being a better father, a better husband, a better hero and a better person? He's admitted his flaws? He's reconciling with his isolated children and wife, slowly? Endeavor is, on a personal level, trying to become a better person. This doesn't change that his entire life's work and his current position are largely a result of his obsessive drive to become number one, which directly led to the horrible poo poo he did, and the public isn't made aware of any of his flaws and is allowed to treat him as the Number One Hero for the purposes of maintaining the flawed status quo.
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Apr 6, 2020 06:17
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MHA is way more of the opinion that regular people in society are more flawed than the heroes. It wasn't heroes that hurt Shigaraki, it was his Dad and just random people on the street that ignored him and led to him being picked up by AFO. The cops treated Twice fairly but it was his boss that screwed him over. Even Endeavor, who totally ruined his family, when it comes to him on the job he's pragmatic and uncaring but dedicated and devoted to the safety of innocents. Hell, Stain had a whole thing about the corruptness of hero society but the only one of his victims we know anything about was by all accounts a genuinely heroic and noble person.
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Apr 6, 2020 06:29
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This is what Hawks wanted to prevent.  Also the Clones don't become less durable down the chain. Each clone can create one clone that take about a broken arms worth of damage and a second one more fragile than that. While not the Heroic thing to do, Hawks was justified in killing Twice or else there is a good chance he would have pretty much wiped out the country's heroes.
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Apr 6, 2020 06:52
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Kanos posted:Endeavor is, on a personal level, trying to become a better person. Except that the horrible poo poo he did was when he gave up on being Number One himself. Like, that's not subtle theme stuff here. This is Shonen Jump, where the narrative's point is bashed into the wall with all of the subtlety of Crime and Punishment's ending. It keeps coming up again and again that going all out for a decent goal is good, and trying for shortcuts is bad. Failing the right way is better than winning the wrong way. Which leads us back to Hawks and Twice. What Hawks did regarding twice isn't wrong. He tried everything else, and only acted when he was forced to, within the bounds of the law and conventional morality. But! What Hawks did was still a failure. He was unable to act as he (and the manga) think a hero should in this situation. All Might or Deku or Bakugo (especially Bakugo) might accept that sometimes you have to kill someone, but a situation like this where the choice is kill a friend or let thousands of people die is just when they show why they're aiming for the top. Taking Twice out,without killing him, while under fire, before he can make any more clones? That's one of those times when someone like Deku would show what PLUS ULTRA really means. We actually had a similar beat earlier in the manga covered by the anime this season, with Mirio stopping Deku from going after Eri to keep their cover. It's not that the series considers that the mark of a bad person, but it's a failure all the same. We're meant to feel bad for Twice, yes. We're meant to wish Hawks could have done better. But we're not supposed to be outraged at Hawks for doing his job, or to think the villains are the protagonists. The society is MHA is decent-but-flawed, and the villains show places that need to be improved. It's not a coincidence that Deku keeps saving people who were failed by Hero society, from Kota to Gentle. It's him moving to surpass All Might by saving people who his world failed, showing that he's going to build a world that doesn't make more Shigarakis.
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Apr 6, 2020 07:15
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PringleCreamEgg posted:Hawks did everything he could to not kill Twice but unfortunately Twice chose to die because he had the hots for Toga, who is underage.
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Apr 6, 2020 07:20
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I hate MHA now because the main character isn't Mirko. How do you folks think Mirko would have handled the Dabi and Twice situation? I think she would've won.
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Apr 6, 2020 08:40
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Anyone who puts themselves in between Mirko and that guy she's gonna kick to death are basically supervillains who deserve being kicked to death by Mirko.
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Apr 6, 2020 08:41
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I know this might come as a surprise for some but this manga, as a general rule, doesn't really run on the idea that enough Shonen Determination can get you through any situation. Sometimes all the options are bad and you have to pick the least bad. This pairs with the general theme that people and by extension society are imperfect and sometimes otherwise good people fall into bad situations and that being a true paragon of justice is inherently untenable. To demand perfect morality from a character in this manga is to not understand what this manga is about.
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