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It's fairly basic marx that societal systems continue until they cannot do otherwise, until some fundamental change occurs which forces the adoption of a new system. Technology facilitating industrialization and the resultant shift of power from the aristocracy to the merchant class is what kick started the age of capitalism, and all its attendant ideas grounded in materialism and the enlightenment and all that shite, rejecting the old ideas that would fetter the power of the merchant and capital holder. Marx believed that the inherent contradictions of capitalism would be what caused it to collapse. I suppose you could take some kind of techno utopian socialist view whereby we invent some groundbreaking new technology that renders our current order of society unsustainable, like a completely decentralized cornucopia machine or something, so everyone literally has everything they could want at all times, thus collapsing the entire concept of capital. But obviously I don't credit that notion. I do subscribe to the idea that major social changes occur as a result of material changes in the world, the old order must collapse for a new one to take its place, at the most facile level because two different social hegemonies cannot exist in the same place and time, and when they conflict they will not hold a steady state for long either if both exist in different parts of the world, as seen in the cold war. I can't imagine any technological development that would cause capitalism to collapse, so I agree with marx that if it is going to, or rather when it is going to, it's going to be because of its own problems, because it has nowhere else to grow, nowhere else to extract from, or I think the most credible option right now; because it has rendered too much of the earth uninhabitable. Something marx probably didn't imagine possible but there you go. None of this has anything to do with what I want, but I don't see another assessment of the trajectory of recent human history that makes sense. If I was picking for aesthetic preference I would pick something more pleasant sounding. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 12:00 on Apr 6, 2020 |
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Apr 6, 2020 11:56
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Failed Imagineer posted:I think they're all too effective against those, too
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Apr 6, 2020 11:56
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Yeah I think this conversation hinges on what your demands are. Where it is that you would be satisfied that the condition "enact socialism" had been met. The silent assumption is that a satisfying answer isn't possible through the parliamentary route, and that really poses the question of what it is you're looking for.
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Apr 6, 2020 11:57
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Jose posted:lots of people in sainsburys with masks and gloves which is nice to see. not me though lol Wear a drat mask goons, make one if you have to. Getting covid yourself is fine, spreading it to even one person will literally kill dozens or hundreds of people within a couple months and you have no idea if you have it or don't. Especially you Jose aren't you living with an NHS worker?
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Apr 6, 2020 11:59
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Communist Thoughts posted:Wear a drat mask goons, make one if you have to. think she's more at risk of contracting it from the covid patients she works with than me since she's on her hospitals covid ITU ward. does anywhere still sell masks?
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Apr 6, 2020 12:02
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Azza Bamboo posted:Yeah I think this conversation hinges on what your demands are. Where it is that you would be satisfied that the condition "enact socialism" had been met. The silent assumption is that a satisfying answer isn't possible through the parliamentary route, and that really poses the question of what it is you're looking for. The workers owning the means of the production, each according to his needs. Which is separate from the state owning the means of production. Ideally I'd like to see the state as we know it done away with but the hows of that are harder to discuss, I'm not a theoretician, I'm a dumb dumb.
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Apr 6, 2020 12:03
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Most importantly you have to get rid of the contradictions inherent in capitalism because if you don't you haven't solved any problems, you've just deferred them slightly. Which yes, means eliminating the employer/employee relationship, the worker and the owner, proletarian and bourgeoisie.
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Apr 6, 2020 12:04
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Jose posted:think she's more at risk of contracting it from the covid patients she works with than me since she's on her hospitals covid ITU ward. does anywhere still sell masks? I meant you are more likely to catch it from her so are more likely to have it than the average goon, and the main way it's spread is by breathing whether you're symptomatic or not. It's really easy to get masks on ebay by searching n95 or p3. Who knows if theyr legit but theyr better than nothing. Lots of masks from China and Asian countries etc who have enormous amounts of masks I've got masks for my friends too from there. If not, searching PPE n95 on Google and looking for H&S suppliers got me some masks a while back. It's very easy to get masks for personal use it's just the gov failing to do anything at all so theyr pretending they don't exist. The NHS needs them argument is stupid, the NHS need people to stop the spread and not go to hospital or put others on vents a LOT more than they need 5 masks or whatever. I think over this whole thing I've ordered 5 lots for various people and my home, only 1 didn't come and it was the ones I got on amazon.
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Apr 6, 2020 12:11
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For all you Tiger King fans: https://twitter.com/BaileyCarlin/status/1245463958049390592
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Apr 6, 2020 12:12
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OwlFancier posted:Which yes, means eliminating the employer/employee relationship, the worker and the owner, proletarian and bourgeoisie. I think in late capitalism, as in the very early capitalism of Winstanley and enclosure, ending the landlord/tenant relationship is as or more important than the employer/employee relationship. Both have no place in a communist society, but late capitalism is turning towards less formal work relationships, but the formal exploitation of land monopoly is right there to see. Billionaires on the rich list are making six figure sums from housing benefits every year.
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Apr 6, 2020 12:13
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I tend to see them as interlinked given that ownership and work are the key distinctions there too.
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Apr 6, 2020 12:15
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Jel Shaker posted:The guardian roughly turned to poo poo after the new editor was seduced by joining the governments d-list advisory board, so now the grauniad only reports what’s in the “national interest” (bojo lying is not that apparently) The Graun, along with all national newspapers and broadcasters and most large regional media, have always been on the D/DA/DSMA-notice committee - the breaking moment most people point at was the Snowden affair when Rusbridger hung Glenn Greenwald and a few other reporters out to dry. It would also be much more accurate to say that the Guardian has *always* been poo poo, at least since it moved to London; it's just the exact nature of the shittiness that's changed. There's possibly a sort of companion to Gell-Man Amnesia here too - most people thought the Guardian (or other paper or *especially* the BBC) was pretty good right up to the point where they actually start getting involved in politics, when all of a sudden it turns to poo poo.
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Apr 6, 2020 12:15
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https://twitter.com/Orwell_Fan/status/1247111482917236736
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Apr 6, 2020 12:18
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 Comrade Fakename posted:For all you Tiger King fans: for fifty dollars he'll say anything you want goddamnedtwisto posted:The Graun, along with all national newspapers and broadcasters and most large regional media, have always been on the D/DA/DSMA-notice committee - the breaking moment most people point at was the Snowden affair when Rusbridger hung Glenn Greenwald and a few other reporters out to dry. the committee was really upset when the guardian didn't notify them about what was on the harddrives and now katherine viner is very happy to be massively over-promoted and doing PR and exclusives for the same spooks that trashed the building in a tantrum
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Apr 6, 2020 12:19
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OwlFancier posted:Most importantly you have to get rid of the contradictions inherent in capitalism because if you don't you haven't solved any problems, you've just deferred them slightly. Go to war because you don't like bosses? I mean, don't get me wrong, I've had violent fantasies in my time. There are managers I've wanted to kick. I don't do it, though. Azza Bamboo fucked around with this message at 12:26 on Apr 6, 2020 |
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Apr 6, 2020 12:22
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Azza Bamboo posted:Go to war because you don't like bosses? What do you think drives war right now? Where do you think wars come from?
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Apr 6, 2020 12:23
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goddamnedtwisto posted:The Graun, along with all national newspapers and broadcasters and most large regional media, have always been on the D/DA/DSMA-notice committee - the breaking moment most people point at was the Snowden affair when Rusbridger hung Glenn Greenwald and a few other reporters out to dry. I remember them throwing one of their sources to the wolves in the mid to late 80's (a lady in GCHQ I think) and there was quite a stink about it from the left that the Graun should somehow be better than that. Protip : They never were https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XkY88kvkdvU
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Apr 6, 2020 12:23
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Azza Bamboo posted:Go to war because you don't like bosses? It's more than just "don't like bosses", it's about ending exploitation and inequality
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Apr 6, 2020 12:24
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Azza Bamboo posted:Go to war because you don't like bosses? "Don't like" is a pretty weird way to oversimplify "do not want to be alienated from the product of your labour by" but sure
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Apr 6, 2020 12:26
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cool cool https://twitter.com/PeterStuart3/status/1247100943696637954?s=20
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Apr 6, 2020 12:28
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The fact that some people have the product of their labour taken by a minority who do nothing but direct the world according to their venal whims is at the root of basically every problem, you cannot address the problems without rooting out the source, that relationship is what must go, the whole thing has to come down to get rid of that core problem if you want to make any lasting headway.
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Apr 6, 2020 12:29
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Azza Bamboo posted:Go to war because you don't like bosses? If you don't change these things everything just gets hosed up again
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Apr 6, 2020 12:30
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ShaneMacGowansTeeth posted:Isn't this usually the point where someone comes charging into the thread to call us all ghouls? Aren't they a bit late tonight? Sonderval posted:Wow, I know this thread has its tongue firmly up labours arse and will dog-pile death threats on anyone that supports anyone else but wishing the PM dead in the middle of a pandemic is loving pathetic. Twenty six minutes
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Apr 6, 2020 12:31
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goddamnedtwisto posted:It would also be much more accurate to say that the Guardian has *always* been poo poo, at least since it moved to London
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Apr 6, 2020 12:35
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Beat managers you don't like in the marketplace of ideas
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Apr 6, 2020 12:39
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Tarnop posted:Beat managers you don't like in the marketplace of ideas With a big stick
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Apr 6, 2020 12:42
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Guardian chat: a longread about how the guardian got co-opted to lick boots harder: https://consortiumnews.com/2019/09/11/uk-security-services-neutralized-countrys-leading-liberal-newspaper/
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Apr 6, 2020 12:42
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i don't think we should making jokes about boris' potential demise if it means that [AMOUNT_ERROR] children are parentless
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Apr 6, 2020 12:43
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Ratjaculation posted:i don't think we should making jokes about boris' potential demise if it means that [AMOUNT_ERROR] children are parentless They'll have exactly the same number of parents after the event
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Apr 6, 2020 12:45
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Spangly A posted:for fifty dollars he'll say anything you want Yeah, I know. Did you think that I believed that awful man was a devout communist?
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Apr 6, 2020 12:45
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OwlFancier posted:The fact that some people have the product of their labour taken by a minority who do nothing alright tommy
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Apr 6, 2020 12:51
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I went out for a cycle yesterday and there wasn't a cloud in the sky. There wasn't a plane in the sky either, it was kinda haunting. Speaking of planes (and their contrails), it appears the Arctic ice has taken the global lockdown pretty badly. https://twitter.com/ZLabe/status/1243976000964153344
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Apr 6, 2020 12:52
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How much strife in our time was started by people who have never worked a day in their drat lives sitting in gilded chairs and directing the surplus product and population of entire countries to kill each other in service of their own self assured brilliance and their own lust for power over even more people? Product and people they control because that's how our society is structured, we do not control our work, others do, others who don't live among us, who don't listen to us, who use their press and their money to prompt people on what to think, and how to feel. What part of our society is not rooted in that one relationship, between the great many people who make society work, and the detestable minority who squat at the top on centuries of inherited privilege and idiocy and who drive the drat thing off a cliff every decade? So yes, war if it would mean the end of bosses, there is no single cause more worth a war than that, if only it would help.
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Apr 6, 2020 12:53
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Comrade Fakename posted:Yeah, I know. Did you think that I believed that awful man was a devout communist? idk man I was starting the second to last episode when I saw that clip I was expecting him to be insane but it took another half an hour for me to google why he'd said that
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Apr 6, 2020 12:54
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Azza Bamboo posted:Go to war because you don't like bosses? What is the alternative? After the last recession and a decade of Conservative rule, the only alternatives seemed to have been voting - via Corbyn - or peaceful protest - such as Brexit or XR. Neither had any effect on changing the status quo, if anything its just strengthened it.
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Apr 6, 2020 12:56
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Communist Thoughts posted:alright tommy The username post combo irony here is pretty lol
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Apr 6, 2020 12:59
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justcola posted:What is the alternative? People have not rebelled or turned to socialism yet, so it remains to be seen if they will. If you don't think it can happen through elections you will have to, personally, be willing to commit violence against your fellow man to get your way. That is the traditional method.
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Apr 6, 2020 13:01
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I've just this minute got a personal letter through my door from the Prime Minister saying I'm allowed to go out to exercise once a day, so I will be showing them that if they try. He didn't bother to put my name on it though, which given that any number of credit card and pay day loan shitehawks can manage that is disappointing. Communist Thoughts posted:alright tommy
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Apr 6, 2020 13:03
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From the Simpsons meme threadUltraklystron posted:I don't know if it has combinatory value, but it's been stuck in my head since I heard the original news story:
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Apr 6, 2020 13:07
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If Bojo dies does parliament have to reconvene to vote confidence in a new PM?
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Apr 6, 2020 13:09
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