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Hopper posted:Well Zeitumstellung has passed already... Consider the „and“ as AND.
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Apr 8, 2020 09:52
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So either one is fine?
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Apr 8, 2020 09:56
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Nektu posted:Just remove the umverpackungen or let the stuff stay in the cellar for 4 days. She was cheerfully putting the groceries away while also touching every other surface in the kitchen. And yeah, a week of quarantine for the groceries would've been fine too, but she wanted to use it later for cooking.
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Apr 8, 2020 11:46
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Realistically, as long as you wash your hands during cooking as you do and cook all your food, I don't see why I should wipe down every carton of Milk, eggs or pasta. Soda cans or bottles you drink out of OK. But other things... I'd go bonkers if I did that.
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Apr 8, 2020 12:58
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When putting things away you have three choices: 1. Either you wipe the item down as you take it out of the bag (avoiding touching it directly). 2. Put it into your cupboard, remembering to either touch absolutely nothing while putting it there, or memorizing every single surface you touch in the process, and cleaning the surfaces afterwards, remember to clean the item when you take it out to use if it sat for less than a week, or doing the whole "memorizing surfaces and cleaning" dance then. 3. Let the bag sit a week. Remember that smear contamination is your enemy here. Also for your consideration: https://twitter.com/ABC/status/1247036350802595840 Mithaldu fucked around with this message at 14:42 on Apr 8, 2020 |
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Apr 8, 2020 14:35
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Mithaldu posted:When putting things away you have three choices: jesus christ  Babies Getting Rabies posted:Mithaldu, people around here are mostly practicing social distancing, super markets limit access to a certain number of people and while I haven‘t been outside in a while, last time I was, quite a few people were wearing masks. Seems like every time I‘m outside, I see more people with masks, too.
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Apr 8, 2020 15:09
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Mithaldu posted:When putting things away you have three choices: Pretty sure you mean well, and I am enough of a hypochondriac to welcome my groceries with a spongebath in my home, but I probably hosed up, touched some surface in between and have contaminated my whole home now There is so much you have to pay attention to in such a short time without anyone actually properly guiding you through it, jsut picking up this and that from twitter and youtube while slowly going insane as the virus is everywhere man, I appreciate what you are trying to do, but, it's overwhelming skipThings fucked around with this message at 15:20 on Apr 8, 2020 |
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Apr 8, 2020 15:16
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That all seems like introducing a disproportionally high amount of effort into your shopping habits for extremely little gain in terms of safety from the virus. While it stays viable on (some) metal and plastic surfaces for a long time, it's not at all clear if it stays viable in high enough amounts to remain infectious. Both Rene Gottschalk and Christian Drosten have gone on record saying smear infections from touching surfaces are a non-issue. Since that's my paraphrasing, here are as direct quotes as I could find in the short term.quote:Dennoch halten Virologen eine Corona-Übertragung durch Bargeld für unwahrscheinlich. Warum? Weil Corona wie die Influenza per Tröpcheninfektion übertragen werde, also durch Husten und Niesen, im Extremfall auch durch Sprechen, betont der Frankfurter Virologe Gottschalk. Beim Noro-Virus, dem Auslöser von Magen-Darm-Krankheiten, sei das anders. "Der kann sich übertragen, wenn man eine Türklinke anfasst oder einen Aufzugsknopf." Eine Übertragung des Corona-Virus auf diese Weise hält der Leiter des Frankfurter Gesundheitsamts für "extrem unwahrscheinlich". Für ihn steht fest: "Wenn bei Corona tatsächlich eine solche Schmierinfektion möglich wäre, wäre die Kurve der Krankenzahlen viel steiler." Charité-Virologe Christian Drosten teilt diese Einschätzung. Das Corona-Virus sei "extrem empfindlich für Eintrocknung", sagt er. Deshalb sei es so gut wie ausgeschlossen, Viren in ausreichender Zahl zusammenkommen, damit sich ein Mensch durch das Berühren einer Oberfläche infiziert. That article is about cash but the quotes are more general and can be found in many other articles including ones that specifically address groceries. The BfR also has no confirmation of any corona infection resulting from contact to surfaces. That's any corona infection, not just COVID-19. They simply recommend washing your hands. My Lovely Horse fucked around with this message at 15:25 on Apr 8, 2020 |
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Apr 8, 2020 15:23
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Mithaldu, I get you are trying to be helpful here and I know you mean well, I really do. Your constant doomsaying and relentless focus on the everpresent dangers are a breath of fresh air and I appreciate your optimism. But in the end, I think most of us will most likely not die and instead will have to face the worst case scenario of having to grow old with a barely functioning Rentensystem and the knowledge that Sido‘s kids will now grow up in a Patchworkfamilie.
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Apr 8, 2020 15:25
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Please don't take the unhinged doomsayer advice on cleaning and quarantining your loving Einkaufe seriously, but follow the official channels instead, which tell you that this is not an issue:quote:Sind auch andere Übertragungswege möglich? https://www.bfr.bund.de/de/kann_das_neuartige_coronavirus_ueber_lebensmittel_und_gegenstaende_uebertragen_werden_-244062.html
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Apr 8, 2020 15:29
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I say if people want to be extra paranoid, let them. No need to come in and quote official guidelines at people that are just trying to be super careful.
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Apr 8, 2020 15:43
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For one: I'd appreciate if y'all could at least skip the insults. I'll be honest and say that those are only likely to make me think the person is engaging in coping behavior.My Lovely Horse posted:That all seems like introducing a disproportionally high amount of effort into your shopping habits for extremely little gain in terms of safety from the virus. While it stays viable on (some) metal and plastic surfaces for a long time, it's not at all clear if it stays viable in high enough amounts to remain infectious. Both Rene Gottschalk and Christian Drosten have gone on record saying smear infections from touching surfaces are a non-issue. Since that's my paraphrasing, here are as direct quotes as I could find in the short term. We're advised to wash our hands, because touching a contaminated surface and subsequently touching the face is known to transmit the virus, yes? So, when saying "Übertragung durch Berührung von Türklinke und Aufzugsknopf ist unwahrscheinlich" ... is he disagreeing with the previous, making hand washing actually irrelevant? Or is he saying that merely touching it the virus can't get into your body unless you also touch your face?
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Apr 8, 2020 15:52
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Mithaldu posted:Or is he saying that merely touching it the virus can't get into your body unless you also touch your face? I think this is the case, since humans can't actually not touch their faces you have to wash your hands (and obv don't get any droplets from infected people directly on your face)
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Apr 8, 2020 15:58
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Mithaldu posted:For one: I'd appreciate if y'all could at least skip the insults. I'll be honest and say that those are only likely to make me think the person is engaging in coping behavior. Goddamn lol the human behaviour explainer has logged on. Good to know that the extremely lame burns you have tried to lay on me and others have been "coping behavior", whatever that might mean in this context. quote:We're advised to wash our hands, because touching a contaminated surface and subsequently touching the face is known to transmit the virus, yes? Sind auch andere Übertragungswege möglich? Es gibt derzeit keine Fälle, bei denen nachgewiesen ist, dass sich Menschen auf anderem Weg, etwa über den Verzehr kontaminierter Lebensmittel oder durch Kontakt zu kontaminierten Gegenständen mit dem neuartigen Coronavirus infiziert haben. Auch für andere Coronaviren sind keine Berichte über Infektionen durch Lebensmittel oder den Kontakt mit trockenen Ober-flächen bekannt. Übertragungen über Oberflächen, die kurz zuvor mit Viren kontaminiert wurden, sind allerdings durch Schmierinfektionen denkbar. Aufgrund der relativ geringen Stabilität von Coronaviren in der Umwelt ist dies aber nur in einem kurzen Zeitraum nach der Kontamina-tion wahrscheinlich.
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Apr 8, 2020 16:02
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I don't think I'd call Mithaldu's advice doomsaying. I would just literally go insane and/or develop an unhealthy kind of OCD (yes my current degree of OCD is healthy, thank you very much) if I cleaned all my groceries. It already is completely bonkers: Go out to shop, come back, wash hands, take of mask, wash hands, unpack shopping bag, remember bags is probably "dirty", wash hands again... Somewhere you gotta give up just to stay sane.
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Apr 8, 2020 16:05
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Goa Tse-tung posted:I think this is the case, since humans can't actually not touch their faces you have to wash your hands Dammit oliwan, maybe it's my loving autism or something, but i'm just trying to be honest and asking you to be nice, not inflicting "sick burns" on you, since i honestly don't give a drat about "sick burns". As to your quote: I'm sorry, i don't see how that answers my questions. Would you please explain?
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Apr 8, 2020 16:07
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oliwan posted:Sind auch andere Übertragungswege möglich? ugh great, now i have to sprint home with my contaminated avocados for a chance to die of the roni? nothing ever comes easy to us millenials
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Apr 8, 2020 16:08
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Hopper posted:I don't think I'd call Mithaldu's advice doomsaying. I would just literally go insane and/or develop an unhealthy kind of OCD (yes my current degree of OCD is healthy, thank you very much) if I cleaned all my groceries.
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Apr 8, 2020 16:11
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Mithaldu posted:Yeah, i'm not trying to doomsay. And yep, i agree, it's tough. Getting done with the shopping trip is exhausting and takes so long because it's so easy to forget to keep track of my hands. THEN loving STOP DOING IT OP there is a reason why absolutely no official channel has advised to wash or quarantine your groceries, because it's a non-issue look at all the sources we just posted -- literally all the official channels say that this is a non-issue, why the gently caress are you doing this to yourself
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Apr 8, 2020 16:15
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oliwan posted:but follow the official channels instead, which tell you that this is not an issue: A very Berlin take of "Trust the official authorities".
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Apr 8, 2020 16:41
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Mithaldu posted:Yeah, i'm not trying to doomsay. And yep, i agree, it's tough. Getting done with the shopping trip is exhausting and takes so long because it's so easy to forget to keep track of my hands. Doesn't help that i have 3 at-high-risk persons in the house. I understand. I am in the lucky position that I am still kinda used to wearing face masks and more so gloves because I did 2 years of ambulance driving and 20 years of Red Cross, most of it in First Aid. Please make sure to take care of yourself though. And by that I mean your mental wellbeing. It seems to me that this is a burden on you and maybe more taxing than you think. It is easier said than done but try to have "off days" where you don't have to worry about it. Like use the Easter weekend to do something fun. Play video games, cook a huge meal, do a jigsaw puzzle or binge a series... anything that takes your mind off the current situation.
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Apr 8, 2020 16:45
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Mithaldu posted:We're advised to wash our hands, because touching a contaminated surface and subsequently touching the face is known to transmit the virus, yes? quote:So, when saying "Übertragung durch Berührung von Türklinke und Aufzugsknopf ist unwahrscheinlich" ... is he disagreeing with the previous, making hand washing actually irrelevant? quote:Or is he saying that merely touching it the virus can't get into your body unless you also touch your face? The reason you wash your hands instead of every surface you touch is that your hands are the one thing you use to bridge the gap between these surfaces and your nose/mouth/eyes. It's easier, quicker and safer to wash just them. Easier and quicker I hope is self-evident, safer because you're likely to miss a surface. It's also the most efficient. Getting coronavirus from touching a can of beans that someone with coronavirus coughed on is possible insofar as this sequence of events can occur. But think about how unlikely each single step in the sequence is. The whole sequence is so unlikely that if it happened to you, you would be the first known case in over a million. Or to put it another way: if it was at all likely to happen, it already would have happened and been confirmed to have happened. That it's technically possible doesn't mean it will definitely happen unless you take countermeasures. It's so unlikely to happen that it already doesn't happen for thousands of reasons before your countermeasures ever enter the picture.
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Apr 8, 2020 17:01
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https://imgur.com/a/kZUoEej
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Apr 8, 2020 17:04
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„Bekennender Radfahrer“ 
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Apr 8, 2020 17:11
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Mithaldu isn't spreading any doom and gloom in my opinion. It's rahter the completely lackluster European sense of hygiene that is getting a serious reality check these days. Regardless of the Coronavirus in particular, we all should embrace basics of hygiene far more within our daily lifes. When was the last time anyone in this thread cleaned their steering wheel for example, or washed their hands prior to sitting at the computer. Those surfaces are less hygienic than a public toilet if you forego actual cleaning.
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Apr 8, 2020 17:25
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Boris schubst Kinder vom Einer, Boris ist ein ganz Gemeiner
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Apr 8, 2020 17:31
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Honestly, do you really plan to trust spotty research right now? For example, I didn't wash my groceries and now I am dead.
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Apr 8, 2020 17:54
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My Lovely Horse posted:Or to put it another way: if it was at all likely to happen, it already would have happened and been confirmed to have happened. I'm not disagreeing with the rest of your post, but this is something I've been thinking about also in relation to the keine nachgewiesenen Fälle: if it did happen, how would we know? First off, you'd need someone who has had 100% no human contact for the last 2-3 weeks, at least. Secondly, they'd still need potentially contaminated objects to enter their home (without human contact). I don't know how many people like that there are, but it can't be many. I mean, I don't know whether doctors still pretend to try to do contact tracing when you come in presumed positive, but realistically they can probably just ask you whether you've been closer than 1.5 m to another person in the last 2-3 weeks, then when you say "yes" (because who hasn't), note down "spray infection" as the vector (or "unknown", I guess). But maybe you did actually get a Schmierinfektion - I mean, who could possibly know? Unless you're one of the, like, 12 people in the world for whom a spray infection would have been basically impossible. In other words, Schmierinfektionen could be possible and even likely (IN THEORY), but since getting coughed on is currently a much better disease vector for 99.99999999999999% of the population, they go undiagnosed. The sentence from your post that I quoted is only true, I think, if we were able to tell apart routes of infection post-exposure, which we can't. Then, sure, we have a sizable number of infections by now and would expect to have seen some Schmierinfektionen in there. But we're actually waiting for one of a very small number of people to get infected, and an absence of cases then doesn't tell us much about the underlying probabilities. Of course, if you assume a higher prior probability for the existence of complete shut-ins who nevertheless handle virus-y objects, that picture changes. All that said: Mithaldu, I wouldn't worry about contaminated groceries, either. I'll flip MLH's sentence above around a little: if it was likely to happen, the curve would be steeper than it is. Source: gut feeling v  v
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Apr 8, 2020 17:56
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Very short version: I have 3 at-high-risk people in the house, including myself; and i'm a programmer writing software with high amounts of user interaction. It is literally my day job to spend time thinking about how people can intentionally or unintentially break the things i create, and i've created software used in situations where lives were on the line.
I did get a Nintendo Switch recently to engage with the animal cross and fire emblem 3 houses memes. 
I'm mildly skeptical for two reasons: "No known evidence" doesn't necessarily mean "we haven't seen it so it's rare", but could mean "we have no records yet". The WHO said the same thing about infection from human to human. And "recently enough" has, according to the BfR site worryingly high potential values.THAT SAID, the context of the statements does indicate they think it's rare, so i'm hopeful and thanks for the explanation AND having some patience with me. 
I've been struggling a little with the meaning of "doomsayer". I think the primary thing is, i am not looking to create any hopelessness, but approach this thing with a grim determination. Also a slight amount of wtf via what the HKers express when they hear about europe.And speaking of doomsaying, bernie just stepped down and from american friends i've seen no less than 8 nuke-related comments so far. Keeping their morale up is a bit of a challenge. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TnRivUNrobA&t=1293s
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Apr 8, 2020 17:57
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So you gonna wash your hands after every time you touch anything? Edit: I mean I believe you that washing your avocados is not necessary. But understand people who have loved ones at risk: the logic here just doesn't make any god drat sense. And I don't see how we could test these assumptions until the numbers change significantly. Either the virus stays active on surfaces as long as seven days or whatever they have found in the earlier study, and then it not only makes sense to wash your hands but also your groceries and anything else that enters your house. At least if you are at risk and might literally die or kill someone. What are you gonna do washing your hands if every surface in the house is likely infected after you carry in your groceries and clothes and all? You don't even notice how often you touch your face. Or the virus on a surface is a non issue, stays active a couple of minutes and then it's fine. In which case you also don't need to wash your hands except if you touched something someone VERY recently coughed on. Both of these things can not be true at the same time. I totally get, given this dearth of coherent information and advise, why someone would wash their groceries. Haramstufe Rot fucked around with this message at 18:16 on Apr 8, 2020 |
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Apr 8, 2020 17:58
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Mithaldu posted:Very short version: I have 3 at-high-risk people in the house, including myself; and i'm a programmer writing software with high amounts of user interaction. It is literally my day job to spend time thinking about how people can intentionally or unintentially break the things i create, and i've created software used in situations where lives were on the line. I get where you're coming from and I understand the motivation for it is concern for others. I currently have the same levels of concern for my family and people that aren't fortunate enough to live in conditions where they have the options to exercise care and precaution. For what it's worth, your posts also didn't come off to me as "doomsaying". That said, please do not respond to the thread's resident bad-faith poster that is calling people unhinged and mentally unwell just so they can dogpile on someone in an attempt to deflect from their latest privileged awful comment in this thread. Also: We'll eventually get through this, the night is darkest before the dawn, etc. We've got a long weekend coming up, everyone should use the time to call their loved ones and tell them they appreciate them.
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Apr 8, 2020 18:07
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https://twitter.com/daxwerner/status/1247881263207157767?s=21
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Apr 8, 2020 18:08
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Das liest sich wie computer-generiert, lol. Thanks.  I've actively been trying to curb myself in regards to what you mentioned. Also, unrelated to all of this, my sister just sent me photos of what she's up to with her kids.  
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Apr 8, 2020 18:19
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My Lovely Horse posted:No. It is specifically not know to transmit the virus: "Es gibt derzeit keine Fälle, bei denen nachgewiesen ist, dass sich Menschen auf anderem Weg, etwa über den Verzehr kontaminierter Lebensmittel oder durch Kontakt zu kontaminierten Gegenständen mit dem neuartigen Coronavirus infiziert haben." thank you for your sane posting op
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Apr 8, 2020 18:31
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Mithaldu posted:Das liest sich wie computer-generiert, lol. They’re not. These however, are: https://twitter.com/prostvonwagner https://twitter.com/prostvonwagner/status/1247512894650138626?s=21
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Apr 8, 2020 18:33
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If you're at risk - and I'm using that in the sense of immunocompromised, or in some way significantly more likely to catch the virus, and not in the sense of more likely to die from the virus if you do catch it but otherwise at the same risk to catch it as everyone else, without meaning to imply that anyone's worries about the elderly etc. are unjustified - if you're at risk in this way you a) should definitely pursue all available ways to minimize your risk but b) very likely already have a routine in place to protect yourself from everyday infection risks or can work one out with your doctor or whoever you're probably in regular contact with, and that routine, whatever it looks like, c) probably isn't fit to serve as a precaution routine for everyone. I'm paraphrasing from medical advice that I read in my earlier trawl here, by the way, but can't be arsed to find the source again. Haramstufe Rot posted:Either the virus stays active on surfaces as long as seven days or whatever they have found in the earlier study, and then it not only makes sense to wash your hands but also your groceries and anything else that enters your house. At least if you are at risk and might literally die or kill someone. Secondly - for most of us cleaning our environment is not a necessity as long as we keep the main way we interact with that environment, i.e. our hands, clean. Like I said, it's nose, mouth, eyes, and as long as you don't lick your kitchen counter or can of beans, you're probably fine. But the very reason we get told to not touch our faces now is that we don't realize how often we do it and it's become important, even for not-especially-at-risk folks, to avoid it. quote:Or the virus on a surface is a non issue, stays active a couple of minutes and then it's fine. In which case you also don't need to wash your hands except if you touched something someone VERY recently coughed on. Smirr posted:if it was likely to happen, the curve would be steeper than it is. Source: gut feeling v
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Apr 8, 2020 18:47
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Since I've read in our local news last week that our Stadttauben are slowly starving because most people who would have fed them are staying at home, I became kind of restless. So, since I don't want to wander the streets like the Feed Creep, spraying birdfood everywhere, I did something less useful, but also less dumb:  Now this thing hangs in our garden. Hopefully, some of the Tauben visiting it regularly will get some of it. Though in my experience, half of it will end up in the many Wildvögel passing through here, the other half will feed our local squirrels. But that's OK too, squirrels are cute.
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Apr 8, 2020 19:50
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Oh no, the
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Apr 8, 2020 20:21
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Rats are cute, too
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Apr 8, 2020 20:30
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Torrannor posted:Oh no, the 
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