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I'm not asking, it's happening. I'm being asked to apologise for casting a ballot because, I poo poo you not, Kinnock gets a brief.
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Apr 9, 2020 23:46
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I do not give a poo poo about an apology, an apology does not make any difference, the decision is done and you can not reverse it, what I want you to understand is the process at work, because thus far you do not appear to, you do not appear to be capable of making a coherent decision at all because every time we reach the reasoning you just collapse into nonsensical drivel about how you should have known and your daddy told you to work hard and we all need to work harder or some such loving poo poo. Your apology is not worth anything to me, but as I said I find your petulant cringing jabs at everyone else for having a clear vision of what they want and what must happen to achieve it extremely loving tiresome. So I want you to either gain that understanding or at the very least stop blaming everyone else for your inability to own your decisions. You chose, you chose wrong, you are not the only person ITT to make the wrong decision but everyone else understood why they were doing it and were able to articulate it and they stood by it with clarity and sincerity.
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Apr 9, 2020 23:49
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Azza Bamboo posted:I'm not asking, it's happening. I'm being asked to apologise for casting a ballot because, I poo poo you not, Kinnock gets a brief. Who is asking you to apologise? I was saying that if things go south, would you regret it? It's an invitation to think, not to condemn. I am sorry if it came across that way!
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Apr 9, 2020 23:50
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Azza Bamboo posted:I'm not asking, it's happening. I'm being asked to apologise for casting a ballot because, I poo poo you not, Kinnock gets a brief. You're right, it's not your fault the snake bit you while you carried across the river, you could never have known he'd done it.
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Apr 9, 2020 23:52
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Josef bugman posted:this is a low ebb after doing reasonably well for some time. The election was the low point, and the possibility of trying something else has presented itself. For many, myself included, that we have taken this possibility is actually uplifting. I can't apologise, though. There are people in the party who will only be satisfied if Kier does everything they wanted to do, and appoints none of the people they didn't want appointing. The big difference, and the people here have sensed it, is that I am willing to concede a fair bit of Corbyn's policies if what's left has a chance of being implemented, where others will have a very low tolerance for "you might as well be a tory, then" kind of rhetoric or worse "that's what CUK did and the Labour party will only become CUK". I can only concede as far as that the path we have taken has gone bad, should it, not that your alternative would have been better, which will be what you imply should you want me to apologise. Azza Bamboo fucked around with this message at 23:55 on Apr 9, 2020 |
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Apr 9, 2020 23:52
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CGI Stardust posted:This would be nice. This is my main concern, that we just get a progressively watered-down version of Corbyn's manifesto. I'm hoping at the very least he'll stick to the handful of things he promised in his leadership campaign. I do think bringing some of the right back into junior minister roles is risky, but it doesn't have to be a disaster. Picking Jess Phillips as an example, for all her (glaring and apparent) faults she does seem genuinely passionate about domestic violence. Maybe she isn't the best person for the role, but she'll has the potential to bring a lot of energy and attention to the issue. And it provides her with an outlet for her massive ego that isn't running to the papers with criticism all the time. I mean collective responsibility being what it is, all the right-wingers who've signed up for junior minister posts have (ostensibly) forfeited their right to go crying on the airwaves about how poo poo the party is.
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Apr 9, 2020 23:56
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jabby posted:our glorious lefty leaders managed to gently caress up an election they went into with every possible advantage Advantages such as the pro Tory media and boot-licking BBC, antisemitism smear campaign, voter base split over brexit, Brexit Party acting as wreckers in non Tory seats...
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Apr 9, 2020 23:56
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OwlFancier posted:Intent doesn't matter, the decisions made assist the expression of the labour right's power in the party which will harm the welfare of people in this country for generations to come. This is incredibly well put and I've already ctrl-c ctrl-v'd it twice to look clever online.
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Apr 9, 2020 23:56
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Yes I take issue with that as well, it was probably the worst time to have an election and it was forced because of brexit and the inability of the lib dems and SNP to conscience a national government for five minutes to sort that out.
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Apr 9, 2020 23:57
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jabby posted:This is my main concern, that we just get a progressively watered-down version of Corbyn's manifesto. I'm hoping at the very least he'll stick to the handful of things he promised in his leadership campaign. The problem isn't "they'll piss and moan in the press", the problem is that it's a clear sign of intent about the direction Starmer will take as leader. Which is to say that Keir's promises are worth as much as a chocolate teapot.
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Apr 9, 2020 23:59
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escapegoat posted:Advantages such as the pro Tory media and boot-licking BBC, antisemitism smear campaign, voter base split over brexit, Brexit Party acting as wreckers in non Tory seats... OwlFancier posted:Yes I take issue with that as well, it was probably the worst time to have an election and it was forced because of brexit and the inability of the lib dems and SNP to conscience a national government for five minutes to sort that out. OK I meant the leadership/NEC election since that's the result we're all discussing, but I see how I was unclear.
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Apr 9, 2020 23:59
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Azza Bamboo posted:The election was the low point, and the possibility of trying something else has presented itself. For many, myself included, that we have taken this possibility is actually uplifting. I can't apologise, though. There are people in the party who will only be satisfied if Kier does everything they wanted to do, and appoints none of the people they didn't want appointing. The big difference, and the people here have sensed it, is that I am willing to concede a fair bit of Corbyn's policies if what's left has a chance of being implemented, where others will have a very low tolerance for "you might as well be a tory, then" kind of rhetoric or worse "that's what CUK did and the Labour party will only become CUK". How so, if you don't mind me asking? Also how much are you willing to concede before you realise that you aren't actually asking for anything? How much until it's the homeopathic approach to Socialism, as it were? Sure, my alternative may not have been better, we can't tell, but it doesn't mean it would be worse either. Again I don't want you to apologise.
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Apr 10, 2020 00:00
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forkboy84 posted:
And RLB would amount to running the same advertisement for 5 more years.
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Apr 10, 2020 00:01
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It also hinges on whether you think starmer will have the authority to put his foot down, which... do you believe that for a minute?
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Apr 10, 2020 00:01
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Vitamin P posted:Starmer is too cucked Yet again. Stop loving doing this alt right poo poo especially while lecturing the rest of us for being insufficiently leftwing.
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Apr 10, 2020 00:02
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Azza Bamboo posted:And RLB would amount to running the same advertisement for 5 more years. Really working that "we'll never know but it would definitely have been the worst thing possible" idea into the ground.
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Apr 10, 2020 00:03
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RLB was potentially what many in the thread had been clamouring for, someone along the lines of Corbyn but without being an old man with tons of baggage.
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Apr 10, 2020 00:07
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I can't get enough of are Dan
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Azza Bamboo posted:And RLB would amount to running the same advertisement for 5 more years. It wasnt the left wing politics that hosed us in 2019 it was the second referendum on Europe.
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Apr 10, 2020 00:07
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jabby posted:OK I meant the leadership/NEC election since that's the result we're all discussing, but I see how I was unclear. I'm still not really sure that's true either. By all accounts starmer was planning this well before the election given how quick off the ground he was. His funding sources were the kind that weren't already exhausted fighting the election, and he also had the press backing too, which people are still exposed to. The higher profile left candidate lost her seat and for all that I think RLB has her heart in the right place I don't think she was able (understandably) to push through the general malaise of the GE loss, especially not when she had to pull a campaign out of nowhere. The money and the man were both obviously poised to capitalise on an election loss to advance their interests rather than working to ensure it wouldn't happen, seems unsurprising that it worked? If you're prepared to throw everyone under the bus to get it, not surprising that you do. Gonzo McFee posted:It wasnt the left wing politics that hosed us in 2019 it was the second referendum on Europe. Which is exactly the danger of starmer, he might well win without that in the way, and if he does I see no reason why he wouldn't waste his efforts on stupid rejoin poo poo and labour right economics. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 00:13 on Apr 10, 2020 |
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Apr 10, 2020 00:09
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You're saying it yourself, the tory press wouldn't countenance socialists in socialists clothing. It's on you to say how that applies in the past and not the future. Unless someone in the party suddenly has a new marketing strategy between now and the next GE (or actually implements it rather than gesturing toward it in my emails with no specific action) the outcome seemed pretty clear to me. Sure, the party would be gleaming ideologically, I don't doubt that. Every policy would be something wonderful to introduce. As for how they'd get to introducing it, though? Well you seem to be very good at lining up what will go wrong for you, theories about the press and power structures and whatnot that seem to hold true to the outcomes you experience. Your main plan for tackling that, though, is just to keep pure and carry on.
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Apr 10, 2020 00:13
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If only I had spoken at length about how I don't believe changes in society happen because of individual will to power and rather as a function of changing material conditions...
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Apr 10, 2020 00:14
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https://twitter.com/bat020/status/1248331970863607809?s=19 But its just a marketing strategy. Utterly brain dead.
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Apr 10, 2020 00:16
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When is the point where it gets so bad that this glorious inevitable revolution happens, because I've passed a few of my own expectations and you've already seen that I'm starting to wonder if there is such a point at all. How can we test this hypothesis? Because I think willing or expecting the collapse of society is pretty yikes, and I'm not there myself.
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Apr 10, 2020 00:16
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Hope is good. I remember the day before the election how optimistic and vital everything felt, I'd allowed myself to believe we might win. If you don't think you're right, then that's not what you think. And gently caress, I've spent most my life listening to what people have said on the streets, thats why I like it here. It's a kernel of hope and knowing that other people want a better world rather than just compromising before you've even started negotiating.
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Apr 10, 2020 00:16
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Political parties gain power and evoke change because they align themselves with existing needs for change. But what is not constant is whether or not they actually fulfil the changes needed, recent history is replete with parties that campaigned with the support of the press in the center on the promise of nonspecific "change" while governing to the right once in power, and what also happens after that is it depresses political engagement, because people rightly believe their effort is worthless because they worked and won and got nothing out of it. And when that happens it opens the door ever wider for right wing revanchism. To say nothing of all the people who suffer and die for the lack of needed change in the interim. There is no such thing as campaigning to the right and governing to the left, because the structure of government pushes people ever further to the right, the people in the government are not like us, they are the kind of people we are fighting, being exposed to that world inevitably pushes people further and further right. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 00:19 on Apr 10, 2020 |
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Apr 10, 2020 00:17
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Gonzo McFee posted:It wasnt the left wing politics that hosed us in 2019 it was the second referendum on Europe. To an extent - the Tory campaign offered the public a defined end to the Brexit nonsense whereas the second referendum only offered continued uncertainty. The public voted for the illusory certainty and ignored the fact that the entire shitshow was entirely of the Tories making. It was quite impressive really - it effectively ended up with the Tories successfully winning an election by campaigning about putting an end to their own dysfunction. Secondarily the concerted media character assination of Corbyn started to have an effect. Throw poo poo at a wall long enough and it will start to stick, no matter how contrived and illegitimate.
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Apr 10, 2020 00:19
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It's fair enough to look at Starmer and think "Well, there's every chance he could be a pretty decent leader, given time", but it'd be a gently caress of a lot easier to volunteer that as an opinion if he hadn't run against RLB. And don't get me wrong, I'm not someone stating outright that Keir will be a bad Leader of the Opposition. But if you're going to deliberately position yourself as the "compromise" candidate, you'd better have some real loving magic in that hat if you want the left-wing to give you actual support.
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Apr 10, 2020 00:19
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Azza Bamboo posted:And RLB would amount to running the same advertisement for 5 more years. Plausible but far from guaranteed. A lot of the failures of 2019 are attributable to Jeremy Corbyn's style. Far too nice, not enough of a firebrand, and a history of campaigning for outsider causes like the Palestinians which made him an easy target for the sort of people who don't think Palestine should exist. RLB is not Jeremy Corbyn. Doesn't have his baggage, couldn't be hit as much with idpol guff about "he's another old white man". She wasn't a perfect candidate and I have no idea if she could win a general election but socialism isn't happening without prominent public figures actually making the case for it. I'd rather have socialist loser than a repeat of Labour winning like the Blair days by just wearing the Tories skin, and that's what Starmer represents to me despite protestations to the contrary. Would be delighted to be wrong but don't see it. Labour winning means nothing to me if Labour aren't pushing my values. They aren't my football team, they are a political party, a means to an end. If they don't try working to that end they are worthless. forkboy84 fucked around with this message at 00:23 on Apr 10, 2020 |
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Apr 10, 2020 00:20
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Azza Bamboo posted:When is the point where it gets so bad that this glorious inevitable revolution happens, because I've passed a few of my own expectations and you've already seen that I'm starting to wonder if there is such a point at all. How can we test this hypothesis? Jesus christ you absolute cretin. Nobody's talking about revolution. They just wanted a Labour party that isn't ran for and by middle class centre right bastards who constantly drift to the right.
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Apr 10, 2020 00:20
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Gonzo McFee posted:Jesus christ you absolute cretin. Nobody's talking about revolution. They just wanted a Labour party that isn't ran for and by middle class centre right bastards who constantly drift to the right. To be fair to Azza I totally have been.
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Apr 10, 2020 00:22
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forkboy84 posted:RLB is not Jeremy Corbyn. Doesn't have his baggage... It doesn't matter - new baggage would appear.
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Apr 10, 2020 00:22
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I apologise for interpreting "changes in society" to mean changes in society and not just in a party. I don't necessarily mean violent when I say revolution.
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Apr 10, 2020 00:22
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Tomberforce posted:It doesn't matter - new baggage would appear. Yeah, but there's no guarantee it'll stick. Look how much poo poo it took for them to find something that stuck with Corbyn. And likewise, they'll do it to any Labour leader left of Blair including Starmer. Sorry, multimillionaire Sir Keir Starmer
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Apr 10, 2020 00:26
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OwlFancier posted:I'm still not really sure that's true either. By all accounts starmer was planning this well before the election given how quick off the ground he was. His funding sources were the kind that weren't already exhausted fighting the election, and he also had the press backing too, which people are still exposed to. The higher profile left candidate lost her seat and for all that I think RLB has her heart in the right place I don't think she was able (understandably) to push through the general malaise of the GE loss, especially not when she had to pull a campaign out of nowhere. "But Starmer planned for this" is a pretty weak excuse when the Left had five years to plan Corbyn's succession. Along with a membership that overwhelmingly voted for him twice, all the resources and campaigning effort Momentum could bring, and control of the election timetable, the NEC and the nominations process. Yeah, the press was behind Starmer. They were behind Yvette Cooper, Liz Kendall and Owen Smith too. So was the money. Losing both the leadership and the two NEC elections was a fiasco, and I put at least some of the blame at the door of the (at the time) party leadership and Momentum leadership. How on Earth can you get 5 years into the left being in charge, with all that time to groom a successor and move them into the public eye, give them responsibility etc., and then claim you were blindsided by Starmer and "had to pull a campaign out of nowhere".
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Apr 10, 2020 00:27
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I mean I might be wrong, of course, and the tories can just kill like a hundred thousand people and it won't matter, maybe several hundred thousand. But that sort of thing, be it through austerity or more visibly through the mismanagement of the pandemic, that breeds discontent, it breeds a desire for a remedy, and revenge. It is the kind of thing politicians do very well out of. But if starmer can capitalize on it and uses the opportunity to hand governance over to a bunch of labour right shits who will increase privatization in the NHS and declare war on somebody about it, that hurt that propelled them into power doesn't go away, it festers, unaddressed, and it resurfaces in time in things like the brexit vote, in things like trump. And in so doing it tarnishes the name of the opposition as a bunch of useless wastrels. If you don't see the two as linked then I cannot help you.
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Apr 10, 2020 00:28
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People were traumatised by 2019 and picked the guy who looked like the PM in a crap sci-fi film, it's not hard to work out. And a huge chunk just didn't bother to vote, bigger than ever before.
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Apr 10, 2020 00:31
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jabby posted:"But Starmer planned for this" is a pretty weak excuse when the Left had five years to plan Corbyn's succession. Along with a membership that overwhelmingly voted for him twice, all the resources and campaigning effort Momentum could bring, and control of the election timetable, the NEC and the nominations process. People have pointed out that pidcock probably wasn't expected to lose her seat. And I would also point out that a lot of the things that would have made corbyn the ideal PM also make him unable to do things like plan succession. I do not think there is some candidate who believes wholly in the democratic right of people to govern themselves and for them to be free of the predations of capital and state, who works tirelessly to ensure those come to pass, and who also machines control of the party as effectively as stalin. The two are not necessarily opposed but I think they are kind of opposed in mindset. And the latter would look extremely untrustworthy even if they existed. Again, structures. You do not get nice and good people who cynically plan to overtake the party. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 00:34 on Apr 10, 2020 |
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Apr 10, 2020 00:32
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forkboy84 posted:There was absolutely self-delusion in this thread around the election but it was from a place of desperate optimism. I'd delude myself all over again. It felt nice, fleeting as it was. Just one month kidding on that this country couldn't be that selfish, cruel, spiteful, racist and credulous. ITT we are all Jonathan Pryce at the end of Brazil They can't take our dreams 
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Apr 10, 2020 00:33
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Azza I would forgive you having opinions as bad as pissflaps if you weren't an equally tedious oval office too. At least you drew some funny cartoons before your wafer-thin interest in leftist politics evaporated tho
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Apr 10, 2020 00:34
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Gorn Myson posted:Besides, the toughest thing about being a left wing Labour member right now is that you're now in a party which contains a substantial amount of people who have at some point wondered many times if Keir Starmer would be in Hufflepuff or Gryffindor. I feel like I've been on a bit of a journey regarding the shitlibs in the same way I went on a journey regarding the gammons after the brexit ref and I've reached a weird kind of acceptence. It is rubbish that we are tied to the libs to form a coalition, they are awful entirely aesthetic obsessives with a clear class interest they aren't brave enough to even acknowledge, they just follow trusted media cues on it, and they absolutely see politics as Based Hermione Dabbing On Pettigrew, but is that a loving sin? Does it make someone actually evil that they respond to aesthetics and poetry more than they respond to concrete issues? And more importantly rather than doing a Chapo bitch session all the time could we not quite easily integrate them by knowing what their dumb brains respond to and like, giving it to them?
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Apr 10, 2020 00:35
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