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What was up with Lily sitting at the bottom of the dam in the opening? That was Lily and not Lyndon, right or did I just misidentify him? A universe where he fell but was uninjured?
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Apr 9, 2020 15:26
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Donnerberg posted:Katie is in some sort of paradox loop. She always knew what her future would be because it was predicted before she lived it, and she resigns herself to that because she never sees herself break out of it, and it never predicts her breaking out because she never tries, etc, etc. But what I'm saying is, she shouldn't even have to try. Knowing in advance what you're about to say, how do you not have that momentary panic of "wait, is that right? Is that exactly what I said?" or a feeling of déjà vu that throws off your timing? It doesn't even have to be something a human would notice, even the tiniest of hesitations is a change.
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Apr 9, 2020 15:34
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priznat posted:What was up with Lily sitting at the bottom of the dam in the opening? That was Lily and not Lyndon, right or did I just misidentify him? A universe where he fell but was uninjured? I noticed that too. I swear it was Lily as well
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Apr 9, 2020 16:22
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It was lyndon. 
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Apr 9, 2020 16:34
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OTC posted:My unspeakably lame guess for the final episode, to be made fun of in due course when I am horribly wrong: This is really not bad! My guess is similar, but that the events taking place in Devs are just the simulation (our universe, one of infinite simulations) running its course/requiring too much energy to keep going before it is terminated. Simulated by aliens, future humans, god, or otherwise.
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Apr 9, 2020 16:41
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OTC posted:Based on the multiverse-theory visual depictions we've seen already, would I be correct in interpreting that Lyndon falls in all possible universes? That's brutal, considering the preceeding conversation. I don't think so. I think it was just showing that the future was locked in. There might be many worlds out there, but they all do their own thing and ours is locked into our own thing. What we were seeing were just the next steps along our timeline. Also, I don't get how standing on the ledge was supposed to be some quantum decision to figure out if he will stay alive. He was having macroscopic interactions with everything. And how was Lyndon supposed to know when the quantum experiment was done and he was allowed to be back at Devs? Sure it was all predicted with the machine, but it looks like Katie convinced Lyndon to kill himself.
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Apr 9, 2020 17:20
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Tiggum posted:But what I'm saying is, she shouldn't even have to try. Knowing in advance what you're about to say, how do you not have that momentary panic of "wait, is that right? Is that exactly what I said?" or a feeling of déjà vu that throws off your timing? It doesn't even have to be something a human would notice, even the tiniest of hesitations is a change. I viewed the scene with the other staff and one-second buffer as the show confirming that Katie is, barring whatever Lily does, correct/stuck. The main issue is that, unless I missed it, the show hasn't really gone into why a deterministic multiverse modification to the machine would make it work, other than allowing the machine to guess as a means of error correction? And the depictions of the multiverse don't really gel with the machine being able to look into the same future.
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Apr 9, 2020 17:44
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Cojawfee posted:I don't think so. I think it was just showing that the future was locked in. There might be many worlds out there, but they all do their own thing and ours is locked into our own thing. What we were seeing were just the next steps along our timeline. Also, I don't get how standing on the ledge was supposed to be some quantum decision to figure out if he will stay alive. He was having macroscopic interactions with everything. And how was Lyndon supposed to know when the quantum experiment was done and he was allowed to be back at Devs? Sure it was all predicted with the machine, but it looks like Katie convinced Lyndon to kill himself. In an infinite multiverse there are outcomes where Lyndon lives, we just didn't happen to see those. Like, maybe after 30 seconds he could grab the railing again and be ok, and we just never saw that particular universe. If Lyndon is correct in his belief, then in some universes he goes back to Devs, but not explained (I think?) is how those universes are formed or defined. Like, at every decision point does a new universe form, or are there infinite parallel universes that already contain every outcome?
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Apr 9, 2020 17:59
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Zachack posted:I viewed the scene with the other staff and one-second buffer as the show confirming that Katie is, barring whatever Lily does, correct/stuck. The main issue is that, unless I missed it, the show hasn't really gone into why a deterministic multiverse modification to the machine would make it work, other than allowing the machine to guess as a means of error correction? And the depictions of the multiverse don't really gel with the machine being able to look into the same future. The problem with trying to work out what's going to happen is that we don't know the rules. Because it's a made-up machine in a made-up universe, we don't know how it works or how the universe it exists within works. There's also the issue that apparently before Lyndon's breakthrough they weren't accounting for many worlds at all, which raises more questions about how any of this works. The more I think about it, the more I doubt that they can actually manage to give us a satisfactory answer to any of these questions, which is going to be annoying because they seem to be building the final episode entirely around them.
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Apr 9, 2020 18:08
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What doesn't make sense to me is that as far as I can tell, Forest and Katie already knew the future back when the season first started, but at that time the machine wasn't able to show much at all? If the team fixed the machine using the many worlds theory in this episode, how have Forest and Katie been so sure of the future this whole time? Especially when it was stated they could never be sure what the machine was showing them is our universe if the prediction is based on many worlds? I think there is more going on here, possibly Forest and Katie had already gotten the machine to work and were just letting the team do their own thing?
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Apr 9, 2020 18:20
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Qmass posted:It was lyndon. Oh yup, definitely. I guess he goes there to think and was there before sneaking into Katie’s car and it was why he suggested the place so not a real huge mystery.
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Apr 9, 2020 18:28
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D-Pad posted:What doesn't make sense to me is that as far as I can tell, Forest and Katie already knew the future back when the season first started, but at that time the machine wasn't able to show much at all? If the team fixed the machine using the many worlds theory in this episode, how have Forest and Katie been so sure of the future this whole time? Especially when it was stated they could never be sure what the machine was showing them is our universe if the prediction is based on many worlds? I think there is more going on here, possibly Forest and Katie had already gotten the machine to work and were just letting the team do their own thing? It wasn't able to show much, but they were able to get things out of it. So they've probably studied the last day so many times that they have a good idea how it goes down. Using the many worlds idea just let them get a clear picture.
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Apr 9, 2020 18:35
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D-Pad posted:What doesn't make sense to me is that as far as I can tell, Forest and Katie already knew the future back when the season first started, but at that time the machine wasn't able to show much at all? If the team fixed the machine using the many worlds theory in this episode, how have Forest and Katie been so sure of the future this whole time? Especially when it was stated they could never be sure what the machine was showing them is our universe if the prediction is based on many worlds? I think there is more going on here, possibly Forest and Katie had already gotten the machine to work and were just letting the team do their own thing? Tiggum is likely correct that the idea is that the machine can show the future without multiverse, but using the multiverse makes it much clearer because modeling the universe requires a computer that contains the universe. So they won't have a perfect image of the future but if the future has two blurry people referring to each other as Forest and Katie with similar looking heads then they can reasonably assume that they are looking at their future, and in the "blurry" model they are looking at a specific universe and basic investigatory work can fill in the blanks. I think all of the past looks were 50+ years ago, too, so presumably they'd be blurrier. The mouse looked pretty clean, so maybe a couple weeks/months forward is clearer. Again, as Tiggum posted, we don't(?) really know what the rules are so it's hard to answer, and I'm kinda expecting a middling at best ending. I'm still not sure why the whole Lily pot boiler plot needed to exist and I can't tell if she's trying to channel a dumber version of Neo or is just a poor/poorly directed actor.
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Apr 9, 2020 18:42
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I wonder if it's a similar situation to that Crichton book Timelines where they never figured out how to make their machine work. They just assume that there's another universe where they did figure it out, and they piggyback off that.
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Apr 9, 2020 18:52
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One thing I still don't get is the mouse. How are they able to use the machine to do anything but visualize on a screen, and how could it be used to raise the dead? That's one part that just confused me.
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Apr 9, 2020 20:33
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I don't think it's brought back to life, I think it is being simulated backwards.
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Apr 9, 2020 20:48
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Zachack posted:Tiggum is likely correct that the idea is that the machine can show the future without multiverse, but using the multiverse makes it much clearer because modeling the universe requires a computer that contains the universe. So they won't have a perfect image of the future but if the future has two blurry people referring to each other as Forest and Katie with similar looking heads then they can reasonably assume that they are looking at their future, and in the "blurry" model they are looking at a specific universe and basic investigatory work can fill in the blanks. Yeah but the blurry stuff had no sounds. They only got the sound to work when they did multiverse. It really looks to me like Forest and Katie have something figured out the rest of the team doesn't.
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Apr 9, 2020 21:00
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D-Pad posted:Yeah but the blurry stuff had no sounds. They only got the sound to work when they did multiverse. It really looks to me like Forest and Katie have something figured out the rest of the team doesn't. Blurry stuff definitely had sounds! They just got fuzzier along with the visual data the further you went back.
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Apr 9, 2020 21:09
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From what they've shown on the show so far, both the Everett interpretation (many worlds) and the de Broglie–Bohm interpretation (one world governed by hidden non-local variables) are correct/compatible with each other. The Deus computer has limited computational capacity and is unable to model everything using de Broglie-Bohm (their computer would need to model every single quantum bit). The Everett interpretation somehow allows them to use a more limited set of data to create a much clearer, for our purposes random projection - the results can be very close to the world they're in, or very different since the computer is just guessing instead of calculating precisely what state particles are in - and each time they run the simulation will inevitably be different.
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Apr 9, 2020 21:19
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Ham posted:Blurry stuff definitely had sounds! They just got fuzzier along with the visual data the further you went back. Yeah, the intro to episode...3? was full of sound, leading into the historical porno, it just wasn't super clear. And that was before the multiverse aspect was added. quote:I don't think it's brought back to life, I think it is being simulated backwards. Computer scans the 6 objects. Computer can recreate the dead mouse using information from the 6 objects because if you know the exact positions and velocities of all particles in a thing you could conceivably work backwards to determine the position/velocity of particles that interacted with those particles.. and maybe 6 objects is what you need to fill in enough info for a full model which can scale outwards infinitely? Computer can then work backwards in time on the dead mouse because it knows the p/v of all of the mouse's particles. But the bread is shown next to the alive mouse which doesn't make sense, since the bread wasn't in the past, although since it's a controlled model there's nothing stopping them from adding a chunk of bread to the model at the simulated time when the mouse is alive and then watching the simulated mouse eat the simulated bread since the deterministic model would just simulate a new universe where the bread exists and interactions go from there. So <theoretical end spoiler/guess> Forrest could, conceivably, simulate the universe where his family didn't die and allow the simulation to go from there, and since the simulation contains a simulation ad infinitum, unless the Devs show universe is the "top" universe then the next universe "above" would do this to the show universe, resulting in an ended, re-configured universe? Although I'm not sure how/if the multiverse model would mess that up.
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Apr 9, 2020 21:38
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Stewart has figured out what's really going on. "The box contains us. The box contains everything. And inside the box, there's another box. Ad infinitum, ad nauseum. Uh oh" They're not the creators of the original box. They're inside a box made by other them. This show is so good.
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Apr 10, 2020 00:23
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shaking that Forrest did my boy Philip Larkin dirty like that. shakespeare my rear end
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Apr 10, 2020 01:41
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Stewart for series MVP imo
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Apr 10, 2020 02:00
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leaked ending https://i.imgur.com/0znTP8A.mp4
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Apr 10, 2020 02:01
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Cojawfee posted:I wonder if it's a similar situation to that Crichton book Timelines where they never figured out how to make their machine work. They just assume that there's another universe where they did figure it out, and they piggyback off that. That book is so dumb it hurts. 
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Apr 10, 2020 04:53
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SCheeseman posted:leaked ending perfect
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Apr 10, 2020 05:20
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So Lyndon took his chances with the idea his "conciousness" will wake up somewhere in which he didn't fall? Also, what is Kenton's motivation at attacking Lily and Jamie? It's not like he's being told to by Forest anymore. I guess he could be and we don't know. But if not, he just saw them talking to Forest and leaving, making it look like he's ok with them.
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Apr 10, 2020 06:05
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He was pissed off that Forrest and Katie were being nice to them. He probably decided to take things into his own hands.
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Apr 10, 2020 06:08
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Ramrod Hotshot posted:So Lyndon took his chances with the idea his "conciousness" will wake up somewhere in which he didn't fall? Cojawfee posted:He was pissed off that Forrest and Katie were being nice to them. He probably decided to take things into his own hands.
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Apr 10, 2020 07:01
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I don't think this show is sticking firmly to a single theory, both artistically and in the plot. I view Lyndon's multiverse scene in comparison to Forest's, where the car crash is both shown happening with varying consequences and to not happen at all compares to Lyndon doesn't walk away in any depicted scenario, therefore his faith is misplaced. A sort of infinite universes, but not infinite possibilities interpretation.
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Apr 10, 2020 07:32
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Mover posted:shaking that Forrest did my boy Philip Larkin dirty like that. shakespeare my rear end https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/48422/aubade-56d229a6e2f07 It is this poem, in case anyone else is curious.
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Apr 10, 2020 14:24
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Tiggum posted:Not "wake up", he'll just always have been there. If many-worlds is true then everything that possibly can happen does happen. So if it's possible for you to die at a particular time then an infinite subset of the infinite number of yous will die and there's nothing you can do about that. Either you're in a branch of the universe where you die or you're in a branch where you live, and since you'll only go on experiencing anything in the branches where you live, from your own perspective you will always end up living.
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Apr 10, 2020 16:28
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I can't say I was entirely surprised, but still JAMIE NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!  On the other hand, I'm not sure what our protagonists were thinking camping out at her place considering the high likelihood that Kenton would (and did) come after them. He knew where she lived, that they were on the run and had threatened them both. I mean...what did they expect? That said, I utterly adore this show, as I do anything Alex Garland does. Twin Peaks meets Silicon Valley. Even if the last episode shits the bed, it will still be a hell of a ride.
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Apr 10, 2020 16:54
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OTC posted:I don't think this show is sticking firmly to a single theory, both artistically and in the plot. I view Lyndon's multiverse scene in comparison to Forest's, where the car crash is both shown happening with varying consequences and to not happen at all compares to Lyndon doesn't walk away in any depicted scenario, therefore his faith is misplaced. A sort of infinite universes, but not infinite possibilities interpretation. Yeah otherwise there’s a universe where Lyndon is saved by a golden eagle piloted by mice but that’s really only in my head cannon.
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Apr 10, 2020 17:21
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Looks to the Moon posted:On the other hand, I'm not sure what our protagonists were thinking camping out at her place considering the high likelihood that Kenton would (and did) come after them. He knew where she lived, that they were on the run and had threatened them both. I mean...what did they expect? They didn't know of the rift between Kenton and Forest, they probably still thought Kenton was Forest's loyal employee and since they were cool with Forest, they were cool with him.
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Apr 10, 2020 22:49
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I'm typically not a fan of writing reasons for things to happen in media but my head canon is that Lyndon is never shown surviving the bridge scene because Katie is actually pushing him off.
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Apr 10, 2020 23:10
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mr. unhsib posted:They didn't know of the rift between Kenton and Forest, they probably still thought Kenton was Forest's loyal employee and since they were cool with Forest, they were cool with him. That makes a depressing amount of sense. It also makes Forest's bonding with Jamie the night before all the more agonizing. Forest knew what would happen, front and back, from every possible angle and perspective, yet either couldn't or wouldn't stop it. At least Jamie and Lily had one sweet night together before it all went to hell.
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Apr 10, 2020 23:13
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I was thinking about how Pete the homeless guy's orders were to not protect Lily but did so anyway thus enabling what is going to happen to happen. Perhaps the opposition forces to Forest/Amaya have their own system to allow seeing the future too and so they knew it didn't matter what they told Pete he was going to save her anyway. Or possibly that's too much of a stretch, who knows.
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Apr 10, 2020 23:29
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Lyndon was right. But he still fails in every possible universe because Katie put her thumb on the scale by observing the outcome, and will always observe the outcome. That scene in the college class with her went over it. The other programmers make a thing about her specifically breaking the rules of what they're allowed to observe.
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Apr 10, 2020 23:56
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ElHuevoGrande posted:Lyndon was right. But he still fails in every possible universe because Katie put her thumb on the scale by observing the outcome, and will always observe the outcome. That scene in the college class with her went over it. The other programmers make a thing about her specifically breaking the rules of what they're allowed to observe. No? There should be other universes where Katie observes an outcome where Lyndon succeeds. Nearly every universe where Katie sees Lyndon fail should have that effect you describe ("nearly" because I guess there are universes where the machine is two quantum potatoes hooked up to a snowglobe and everyone in Devs is just watching made up gibberish), but if you rewind the clock and splinter off at the point of observation then every outcome should exist. Just not in the particular universe we happen to be watching, or any "fail" universe after the observation point. Zachack fucked around with this message at 00:21 on Apr 11, 2020 |
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Apr 11, 2020 00:15
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