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No German ship is ever one I would suggest to someone frustrated by poor accuracy, lmao. They're the posterchildren for "Can't hit a stationary barn at point blank"
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Apr 10, 2020 22:04
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I loving hate almost all BB's. It's such a stupid loving class. Most of them have terrible loving guns because if they had good guns they'd be overpowered and Wargaming is loving terrible at game design. french bb's are bad german bb's are loving terrible and the scharnhorst in particular is loving awful (it's not 2016 anymore, stop recommending that thing, it was never all that good in the first place) japanese bb's are boring russian bb's are dumb and either okay or really bad depending on factors beyond your control british bb's are for idiots who only want to farm damage american bb's are loving terrible at tier 6 and below, awkward at tier 7 and good at tier 8+. In general BB's with reliable guns are acceptable and ones without them aren't. That rules out almost all of them except the Japanese and the Americans, and while the Yamato definitely has reliable guns it's also a loving snoozefest, so it's ruled out too. Out of all the non-premium BB's in the game though only the Montana is really worth playing. The NC would be but it's at T8 and T8 is poo poo. If you include premiums the Missouri is still good (although unobtainable now) and the Georgia is loving magical (if you got the JB over this you done hosed up, son). The Thunderer is presumably good but I don't have it yet. Not even the Montana is good enough, though. Peep this poo poo:    2126 base XP on a loss. Started the game off by nailing the Moskva for 58k damage from 22km away because that's just how the Montana works. I wasn't actually trying to farm damage even though it looks like it, it was just impossible to get kills for some reason. I spent like 5 volleys trying to finish off the Hindenburg when he had like 7k HP and in the end he lived with 260 HP. This is battleships.wowsreplay. e: if you just want to gently caress around at low tiers though, get a Pyotr Velikiy. That thing is dumb as all hell, it's stupidly loving tanky and the Russian dispersion is actually an advantage at that low of a tier because all the fights are at like 12km or less (in other words, it's really accurate in practice). Has really loving good AA too so not even CV's bother it too much. TheFluff fucked around with this message at 23:02 on Apr 10, 2020 |
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Apr 10, 2020 22:53
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Forget BBs, be a good DD instead and an asset to your team
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Apr 11, 2020 00:17
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Battleships are kind of constrained to be terrible because they have good hp and armor so they don't usually die that early, and the way they deal damage means even really bad players will sometimes get a good salvo. The game is supposed to be balanced for some concept of an average player, and battleships lose out because the really bad players still do relatively okay in them and drag down the average. It's the other side of the problem with destroyers (even the best players will die 100% of the time
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Apr 11, 2020 01:16
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CitizenKain posted:If you don't mind spending money: get a Scharnhorst. Otherwise, try the French line, as they handle the issue of having lovely guns by having a lot of them. The Lyon in particular is great because it has a 16 gun broadside. Otherwise, most BB lines just kinda suck until tier 7 or 8. Scharnhorst is fine, but the Tirpitz is just amazingly fun to play. If it goes on sale get it. Don't pay full price though.
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Apr 11, 2020 04:14
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I admit I may be a bit unreasonable in my hatred for all Gneisenau hulls, and especially when (like last night) I'm mad at video games, but still, I'm not a fan of the Scharnhorst. I think a big reason for its popularity is that T7 matchmaking used to be very favorable so you saw a lot of T5's that you could boss around, but those days are long gone now. What the Scharnhorst is left with is some very underwhelming cruiser guns in a gigantic and poorly concealed battleship hull. Scharnhorst AP is functionally equivalent to Moskva AP - somewhat worse ballistics but pen and (lack of) overmatch are functionally identical in practice - which sounds good until you realize that the Scharnhorst AP DPM is about on par with same tier 203mm cruisers but with far, far worse dispersion, and it has a short fuse timer so it's very unreliable when it comes to citadeling other BB's at short range. If you've ever played the Moskva you know that while the AP is hilarious it's sorta unreliable against any sort of angling, and keep in mind that the Moskva is incredibly much more accurate than the Scharnhorst. Okay, you say, so we fire HE against angled targets instead like Yuro says in that old "how to Scharnhorst" video? Unfortunately though if you fire HE in the Scharnhorst you're basically an idiot, because it's German HE at its finest, or maybe at its worst, which is to say it's incredibly loving bad. Scharnhorst's HE DPM is almost exactly the same as the Shiratsuyu's HE DPM. But, fires! you say. Not great there either - 20% fire chance per shell when the Myoko gets 17% while having one more gun, 6 seconds shorter reload and pinpoint accurate dispersion. Myoko's HE shells also have a whopping 100 less damage than the Scharnhorst's. Basically the Scharnhorst is a terrible hybrid ship that combines the worst qualities of cruisers and battleships. It's a ship for BB mains who can't figure out how to not die in a cruiser. Just play an actual cruiser instead. e: and don't recommend the Tirpitz to someone who says they're frustrated with battleship guns, jeez. If you want a secondary gimmick BB without gimping yourself, get the Georgia and don't take AFT nor manual secondaries, just the secondary module and the flag. Presto, 9.4km secondaries that are so dang accurate that they work fine without manual secondaries, and they're on a ship that does 40 knots so you can engage or disengage whenever you drat well please. Short reload heal too so it's basically impossible to die in it if you know what you're doing, and the main guns are absolutely absurd. 457mm with 26 second reload and battlecruiser dispersion at T9 - who comes up with this poo poo, really? TheFluff fucked around with this message at 08:59 on Apr 11, 2020 |
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Apr 11, 2020 08:40
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Battleships are just a dumb dead class and in WoWS BB actually stands for Blood Bag. I count the number of BBs at the start of every match to determine how much fun farming damage I can get
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Apr 11, 2020 13:39
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Re: Germans Then get the Graf Spee  !Also I enjoy the Prinz Eugen because the heal makes it immensely better than the Hipper.
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Apr 11, 2020 14:01
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Just learned the hard way that dumping your entire payload of european T6 torpedoes into a T6 BB does roundabout 3/5th of his health and then you die because you didnt expect him to go on.
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Apr 11, 2020 14:18
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Yeah Euro DD torps have almost no damage. You’re meant to just stack floods/ maybe set fires, although the ships are clunky and slow and gun range is short so you have to be extremely careful.
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Apr 11, 2020 14:47
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dialhforhero posted:Re: Germans I've got the Graf Spee; it's battleship guns on a cruiser hull. Eugh. Ditto Scharnhorst, it's cruiser guns on a battleship hull, also eugh.
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Apr 11, 2020 18:49
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I enjoy the Spee. I know it's not exactly Good but I have a weird affinity for it and generally seem to manage decent games. It's really chill to drive, not sure why. Maybe because I have low expectations for it! e: stats confirm that I, an average player, do above average in the Spee  Also it has a generally high win rate? Odd. Maybe from bullying T5 cruisers?
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Apr 11, 2020 19:04
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General Battuta posted:I enjoy the Spee. I know it's not exactly Good but I have a weird affinity for it and generally seem to manage decent games. It's really chill to drive, not sure why. Maybe because I have low expectations for it! I enjoy it, too. Unlike the Scharnhorst you don't get t8 or t9 matchmaking and you are a cruiser killer who can definitely gently caress up a BB. It's biggest downfall is that it is wildly visable and lots of people love to go after it but it does teach you how to hit and run. The torps are also nice when you want to suicide.
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Apr 11, 2020 19:19
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General Battuta posted:I enjoy the Spee. I know it's not exactly Good but I have a weird affinity for it and generally seem to manage decent games. It's really chill to drive, not sure why. Maybe because I have low expectations for it! Graf Spee is a lot more survivable and forgiving than basically all other cruisers at its tier. The heal alone probably increases its effectiveness a great deal for a lot of people (the fact that most cruisers only get heal at T9 is dumb as hell and makes the class extremely unforgiving for new players. same goes for DD's - as the Swedish line shows, giving DD's heal makes them much more fun to play too). Graf Spee also has much better accuracy than the Scharnhorst (same dispersion formula as Alaska/Stalingrad/Georgia, which while much worse than regular cruiser dispersion is still a good bit better than any regular BB dispersion).
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Apr 11, 2020 19:59
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Releasing another line of smokeless DDs was the worst thing they could do to non-DDs. The amount of loving retarded "i not spot cuz i dun hab smok" mongoloids that hide behind the battleship line to spam HE in hopes someone else goes spotting for them is utterly mindblowing. You know what, bring on loving submarines. How much more can you gently caress it up, lets find out.
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Apr 11, 2020 20:29
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Yolomon Wayne posted:Releasing another line of smokeless DDs was the worst thing they could do to non-DDs. Those awful DD players have spent literal months getting continuously dunked on for spotting in DDs that did have smoke and could theoretically hide for a little bit from a carrier that might get bored from having to wait a couple minutes to resume dunking. Now they're playing with even less of a safety margin, of course they're not going to loving spot. WG has built a game that doesn't teach anybody anything, absent guidance teaches solo players the exact wrong lessons because teamwork isn't a thing, delivers poor material rewards for anything other than damage, and then we act surprised that people are playing badly. Think about what you'd learn if all you had to go on was occasional ingame chats from the usual population in a random battle. That's what these people know. I can't blame players for learning what they've been taught, I can't blame them for learning via the only interaction most have with other human beings involved in the game, I definitely blame the game for bad design and exceptionally poor teaching.
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Apr 11, 2020 20:39
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Yolomon Wayne posted:Releasing another line of smokeless DDs was the worst thing they could do to non-DDs. Swedish destroyers more or less automatically spot, because they have no smoke to smoke up the enemy ships and they can't really engage from outside spotting range. The only destroyers that spot enemies more reliably are French. If they're afk they don't spot but the same goes for every ship. The worst line as far as not spotting is the American destroyers that smoke behind an island in a cap and then sit there for nearly three minutes, or spot an enemy, immediately drop a smokescreen that covers the entire enemy team, and then die. Also, on this same page you are complaining about destroyers dying early. You should really pick one, between not running into caps to spot for you and running into caps and dying.
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Apr 11, 2020 21:03
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James Garfield posted:Swedish destroyers more or less automatically spot, because they have no smoke to smoke up the enemy ships and they can't really engage from outside spotting range. The only destroyers that spot enemies more reliably are French. If they're afk they don't spot but the same goes for every ship. Theres a difference between dying early because you blindly run into a torpedo wall or getting radared 2 minutes in, or LITERALLY staying behind battlships and spamming for intelligence data. I refuse to believe you cant see that.
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Apr 11, 2020 21:11
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Everyone gets the same teams. If you're posting literally twice a day about how bad your teams are (or how you can't win because of russian bias, etc.), you're the reason they're bad.
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Apr 11, 2020 21:17
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Pretty much every Yolomon and Der Shovel post is about how all the other people playing this game are terrible. Or those ships are terrible, etc. I guess it keeps the thread active.
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Apr 11, 2020 21:26
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James Garfield posted:Everyone gets the same teams. If you're posting literally twice a day about how bad your teams are (or how you can't win because of russian bias, etc.), you're the reason they're bad. Thats true, i just dont post about the normal games im having. Who the gently caress does? 90% of this thread is "this is incredibly bad" or "this is incredibly amazing", would you rather post about incredibly mediocre things? So what do you feel is really mediocre, yet postworthy, in this game?
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Apr 11, 2020 21:36
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How am I supposed to play the Phoenix? I can't seem to effectively avoid fire like in a DD, but when it does get hit it just melts. When it's not burning.
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Apr 11, 2020 21:37
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Velius posted:Pretty much every Yolomon and Der Shovel post is about how all the other people playing this game are terrible. Or those ships are terrible, etc. I guess it keeps the thread active. Yes, it does indeed, with the majority most of the crew just replying to questions or complaints with various of white-bearded wisdom or smugness.
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Apr 11, 2020 21:39
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Q_res posted:How am I supposed to play the Phoenix? I can't seem to effectively avoid fire like in a DD, but when it does get hit it just melts. When it's not burning. I mean I don't know anything about it but it's T4 and not a premium, right? You should be out of it in a couple games.
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Apr 11, 2020 22:29
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Yolomon Wayne posted:Thats true, i just dont post about the normal games im having. There's no law saying that you have to post about how bad your team is every time you lose a game. Q_res posted:How am I supposed to play the Phoenix? I can't seem to effectively avoid fire like in a DD, but when it does get hit it just melts. When it's not burning. I haven't played it in forever but I think the Phoenix is just bad. It doesn't take very long to get through it at least. Omaha is the same concept though, it dies easily if it gets hit but it does very high damage. It's very good, but hard to play and it's understandable if you don't have a great experience in those ships as a new player. The tier 6 ships are both more user friendly. edit: it sounds kind of obvious, but you play the Phoenix and Omaha by not being spotted when there are enemies in position to hit you for a lot of damage. The same thing applies to everything in the game except carriers, where you repeatedly press a number key and left click on a ship. James Garfield fucked around with this message at 23:16 on Apr 11, 2020 |
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Apr 11, 2020 22:34
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xTlVRnAXd4o Flamu seems to think this is super OP or w/e but I'm not really seeing it. I guess it power creeps the Atago after all these years but who really thought the Atago was overpowered? The guns are very close to the Donskoi's and with that improved richochet angle and extremely long range it seems a bit spicy for T8 but on the whole this doesn't seem nearly as bizarre as some other premiums we've seen recently.  As a long range HE spammer it seems mostly inferior to the Charles Martel (which does not have a heal, granted, but it does have access to speed boost jukes). It's also T8 which means it's going to be up against T9 and T10 75% of the time anyway so who really cares too much. Q_res posted:How am I supposed to play the Phoenix? I can't seem to effectively avoid fire like in a DD, but when it does get hit it just melts. When it's not burning. Very carefully. It and the Omaha are some of the most fragile cruisers in the game and explode if anything sneezes in their general direction. Is this your first time in cruisers? It's a harsh lesson but these ships are actually not so bad once you learn how to not explode so much. The American cruiser line really gets going at tier 6 though where the Pensacola in particular is a drat menace these days. e: a long time ago I wrote this collection of short tips regarding how to note explode in the Omaha which may or may not help. Really, it's mostly about positioning. In American cruisers you learn pretty quickly how to love islands and how to shoot over them. TheFluff fucked around with this message at 22:48 on Apr 11, 2020 |
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Apr 11, 2020 22:37
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Velius posted:Pretty much every Yolomon and Der Shovel post is about how all the other people playing this game are terrible. Or those ships are terrible, etc. I guess it keeps the thread active. Let's get things straight: I post about how pubbies and Wargaming are terrible.
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Apr 11, 2020 22:45
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Q_res posted:How am I supposed to play the Phoenix? I can't seem to effectively avoid fire like in a DD, but when it does get hit it just melts. When it's not burning. However, not quite mentioned above is that the Phoenix and Omaha have a pretty unusual gun setup, they have both turrets and casemates. What this means is that while most of your firepower is in broadsides, you don't lose a lot of it when you're firing straight ahead (or backwards in the Omaha's case. IIRC on the final hull upgrades for them both.) You can maneuver and still keep a lot of your guns in the action. So don't be afraid to do that. Also while everybody knows the Phoenix is made of paper and citadels they forget that it has torpedoes. Don't forget this, getting kills with your torps is a rare but almost always hilarious opportunity. James Garfield posted:Everyone gets the same teams. If you're posting literally twice a day about how bad your teams are (or how you can't win because of russian bias, etc.), you're the reason they're bad. Not everyone gets the same teams, some of us get NA teams and others of us get EU teams. The badness is universal but there are still differences.
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Apr 11, 2020 23:16
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TheFluff posted:Very carefully. It and the Omaha are some of the most fragile cruisers in the game and explode if anything sneezes in their general direction. Is this your first time in cruisers? It's a harsh lesson but these ships are actually not so bad once you learn how to not explode so much. The American cruiser line really gets going at tier 6 though where the Pensacola in particular is a drat menace these days. I'm not actually new, but during the Alpha/Beta I hit the Phoenix, hated it and focused on US/JPN Battleships and Japanese destroyers. I haven't really touched the game since Closed Beta though.
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Apr 11, 2020 23:19
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TheFluff posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xTlVRnAXd4o I think Flamu's videos on Russian test ships are pretty useless. If you want to see gameplay I guess they're gameplay, but you don't learn anything from his opinions when he calls all Russian ships overpowered regardless. It's funny comparing his Bayard video to videos on Russian ships that (probably) aren't as overpowered as release Bayard. The ship doesn't really look like it needs the heal, but the damage output on that thing is just nonexistent against anything that angles in. I think it's kind of the same with most of the testing Russian cruisers, even if the ship looks pretty scary it's just not very convincing when your argument is a video of it getting citadels on broadsides at close range.
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Apr 12, 2020 06:45
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James Garfield posted:the damage output on that thing is just nonexistent against anything that angles in. Apart from all the things that angled in and got turbofucked. He had another battle last night in the thing where he had 150k damage and 19 citadels inside 5 minutes, and a Yamato hit him with 20 main battery shells for 9k damage because it's got an icebreaker bow. Bagration and the new t9 and 10 ships are all stupid, all positives without negatives. NTRabbit fucked around with this message at 07:04 on Apr 12, 2020 |
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Apr 12, 2020 07:00
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NTRabbit posted:Apart from all the things that angled in and got turbofucked. He had another battle last night in the thing where he had 150k damage and 19 citadels inside 5 minutes, and a Yamato hit him with 20 main battery shells for 9k damage because it's got an icebreaker bow. The Kutuzov in the video isn't angled enough for guaranteed autobounce even against normal guns, it's in the range where autobounce is random. If it turned right and shot Flamu with its front guns he would have been in trouble, instead it tried to smoke up while moving at 7 km (  ) and broadsided both Flamu and the Vanguard behind him. The Albemarle does a 360° turn and broadsides him to torp, when it could have rushed toward Flamu to outtrade him with front guns (better damage and super heal) and block the Vanguard shots with the island. Also, both of the ships he citadels are so close that shell velocity doesn't matter, and a Baltimore would have poo poo on them even harder on account of more AP damage output and better autobounce angles.The icebreaker bow on the Pyotr is so low that it won't bounce anything unless a BB aims at it at close range. It's high enough to make bow citadels rare (but not impossible, Moskva can be bow citadeled) but otherwise it's unlikely to matter. It's not "all positives without negatives" at all, almost all of the new ships have bad HE which is a huge weakness for a cruiser. The raw damage on AP isn't even that impressive, it's carried by the autobounce angles and penetration. Reload Petropavlovsk has the same AP dpm as legendary Moskva. Even the penetration is situational since existing cruisers can already citadel broadside cruisers at long range and BBs at close range, it'll only matter against under angled cruisers at long range (where dispersion is bad) and broadside BBs at mid range.
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Apr 12, 2020 08:03
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James Garfield posted:It's not "all positives without negatives" at all, almost all of the new ships have bad HE which is a huge weakness for a cruiser. The raw damage on AP isn't even that impressive, it's carried by the autobounce angles and penetration. Well it kind of is. With recent Soviet ships the negatives seem to be neutrals at best. The Ägir? Horrible main guns with not great range. Bad survivability. Only way to have fun was to build a secondary meme build. Then the secondaries got nerfed. The Mainz? Bad survivability (meh armour and no heal at T8), decent gun range at 17km, German HE (ie. nothing special), good AP damage. The Pyotr Bagration? Great armor, heal at T8, great concealment, good AA, great AP auto-bounce angles, great AP penetration, great gun range (one of the longest at T8), great shell velocity, decent AP damage, decent HE damage and fire chance. With the exception of German hydro, the Pyotr Bagration seems outright better than either of the new German ships, for instance. I can't seriously find any areas where the Pyotr Bagration is outright worse than its T8 competition. At worst it's kind of at the same level, and has many, many strength to compensate for those "problems".
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Apr 12, 2020 10:17
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Der Shovel posted:Well it kind of is. With recent Soviet ships the negatives seem to be neutrals at best. The Ägir? Horrible main guns with not great range. Bad survivability. Only way to have fun was to build a secondary meme build. Then the secondaries got nerfed. The Mainz? Bad survivability (meh armour and no heal at T8), decent gun range at 17km, German HE (ie. nothing special), good AP damage. 122k HE DPM with 13% fire chance and 30mm pen is not decent at T8. It's not quite as bad as the Hipper's DPM but the Hipper has 51mm HE pen.
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Apr 12, 2020 10:52
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Good point, the Mainz also kind of has IFHE already built in.
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Apr 12, 2020 11:22
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On the other hand, given the shell speed how often are you maxing out that DPM on a Mainz compared to the railguns on Bagration? And with the awful armour how long are you able to keep using it? There's more to a ship than the raw dpm number on a spreadsheet.
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Apr 12, 2020 11:29
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Sure and that's kind of my point: the Mainz has good HE but pays for that with awful survivability, poor shell ballistics and less range. The worst you can say about any area of the Bagration is that it's OK at something. It doesn't have any real drawbacks, any real problems. It did -- and then WG buffed it until it didn't.
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Apr 12, 2020 11:47
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Der Shovel posted:Sure and that's kind of my point: the Mainz has good HE but pays for that with awful survivability, poor shell ballistics and less range. Bagration was very good and they buffed it, Agir was very bad and they nerfed it Also the new tier 5 has the same 180mm guns as Kirov, but somehow has more AP pen than Donskoi, roughly a few ticks better than Des Moines. NTRabbit fucked around with this message at 14:59 on Apr 12, 2020 |
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Apr 12, 2020 14:48
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Der Shovel posted:Sure and that's kind of my point: the Mainz has good HE but pays for that with awful survivability, poor shell ballistics and less range. Mainz ballistics aren't bad at all, they're quite close to the Kutuzov's. We're talking like 0.45s longer flight time to 17km than the Kutuzov (12.3 vs 12.76 - if the 155mm Mogami could reach this range it'd be like 0.75s after the Mainz). It also has slightly better HE DPM than the Kutuzov and unlike the Kutuzov you don't build IFHE on it either so it starts a good bit more fires per minute. For a 15cm HE spammer I'd call that pretty good. 180mm is an oddball intermediate caliber but when it comes to HE the Bagration sorta combines the worst qualities of 155mm and 203mm. It has HE DPM that's worse than any 203mm cruiser at this tier except the Hipper, and the worst fire chance of any of the 203mm cruisers (tied with the Hipper) and with 203mm RoF, but unlike the 203mm cruisers it can't pen all of the very common 32mm armor everywhere. So you probably want IFHE on this thing just like on the Donskoi, which means now you have a 6.5% base fire chance (IFHE Kutuzov/Chapayev/Cleveland: 6%) like an IFHE spammer but the number of shells per minute of a Charles Martel, and you do a bit less damage per shell than a Charles Martel. Yes you will probably hit more shells at long range than the Charles Martel will but not enough to make up for having less than half the fire chance and you certainly won't be doing enough damage to catch up to the other IFHE spammers, some of which have more than twice your DPM. Whether or not you build IFHE or not the HE is just bad, plain and simple. Without IFHE it's an underwhelming fire starter with pretty awful direct damage, and with IFHE it's direct damage like a really lovely 203mm cruiser and a worst-in-tier-by-far fire starter. The AP on the other hand is exceptionally strong, maybe a bit too strong, but if you've played the Baltimore and beyond (the high tier USN CA's all have the same AP pen from the Baltimore and up) you'll know that even with those things citadeling other cruisers is quite hard beyond like 10-12km (except for the Smolensk, of course - Des Moines AP against that thing is  ) and the Bagration's pen is only slightly better.As for the rest, I dunno. A heal is at least less bad than a smoke. No idea what kind of survivability the armor scheme gives in practice. In Flamu's clip he was rushing a Richelieu and was taking a lot of damage through the nose on the way in at least (and the Richelieu just went straight for him for whatever reason). e: I should note that in my experience belt armor on cruisers is mostly meaningless. In recent memory I can't think of any ship that's more frustrating to play as an open water gunboat than the Ibuki, and that's because of a combination of 25mm bow/stern plating and a very long and fairly high citadel that's higher in the middle. It has sort of a "step" in it between the centermost turrets and the midsection of the ship, and there's a bulkhead athwarthships there, so what I think happens is that basically any BB shell 380mm or bigger goes in through the stern plating somewhere fairly high up, but instead of ricocheting off of the citadel roof it hits that bulkhead and goes straight inside. I have never gotten citadelled so much at bullshit angles as in the Ibuki, and it happens at all kinds of ranges too. It's the same in most cruisers - if you show broadside to battleships you die but if you angle you eat fairly limited damage (British CL's of course excluded because they're covered in tinfoil rather than in armor plating). Firing AP at other cruiser broadsides at ranges over 10km is rarely worth it except in USN cruisers and in the Donskoi/Moskva, or at least as long as you don't aim higher than the waterline. TheFluff fucked around with this message at 17:11 on Apr 12, 2020 |
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Apr 12, 2020 16:04
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| # ? May 25, 2024 00:56 |
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Applied to clan, IG is SDchk
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Apr 12, 2020 16:05
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