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rt4 posted:He's apparently programming for Windows, which is a weird edge case Games for Windows, which seems pretty common given the size of Steam's catalog Storysmith posted:More to the point, the video starts spending ten minutes lambasting a stranger for assuming that he’s incompetent instead of giving him the benefit of the doubt and he then spends thirty minutes assuming the VS team is completely incompetent instead of giving them the benefit of the doubt that their product owners are optimizing for use cases that aren’t his (it all kinda blurred together but i thought he mentioned that the otherwise empty solution is only using VS for the debugger and possibly release builds?). Yeah, the second half of the video where he goes from decrying the assumption of ignorance on others' part to embodying that assumption is a real Shyamalan twist. Munkeymon fucked around with this message at 13:18 on Apr 10, 2020 |
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Apr 10, 2020 13:15
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Munkeymon posted:Games for Windows, which seems pretty common given the size of Steam's catalog.
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Apr 10, 2020 17:00
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Bruegels Fuckbooks posted:Windows has a learning curve compared to other platforms - there are many implementation details and apis that will make you wonder if the designers were drunk space aliens just doing this for a laugh. The windows port is always going to end up with the most voodoo if you're trying to do cross platform support. That doesn't mean windows isn't a common case to develop for, but it's still special for how much aggregation it can cause. 
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Apr 10, 2020 17:16
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Bruegels Fuckbooks posted:Windows has a learning curve compared to other platforms - there are many implementation details and apis that will make you wonder if the designers were drunk space aliens just doing this for a laugh. The windows port is always going to end up with the most voodoo if you're trying to do cross platform support. That doesn't mean windows isn't a common case to develop for, but it's still special for how much aggregation it can cause. You're right. Maybe the company developing Windows could also come out with a good development environment that works well on their platform instead of depending on whoever develops Visual Studio.  More in coding horrors of yore news: https://twitter.com/mvzelenks/status/1248645966363795458
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Apr 10, 2020 17:44
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The real horror is that New Jersey (and maybe other states) isn't planning on paying the people who are going to work on all these old systems. They want volunteers.
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Apr 10, 2020 17:48
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oh what lol
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Apr 10, 2020 18:11
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Absurd Alhazred posted:You're right. Maybe the company developing Windows could also come out with a good development environment that works well on their platform instead of depending on whoever develops Visual Studio. The Windows Team and developer division (Which includes VS and .NET) hate each other, so it could just be spite by the VS team to make it lovely 
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Apr 10, 2020 18:43
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ultrafilter posted:The real horror is that New Jersey (and maybe other states) isn't planning on paying the people who are going to work on all these old systems. They want volunteers. They realistically can't afford to, and you don't want to pay for a bunch of people who literally just learned about this if it turns out that they're only going to give you hot garbage. I'm actually going to try to do this, so that I can actually learn about COBOL instead of just laughing at it, and possibly even help my state out if it turns out I can.
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Apr 10, 2020 19:59
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Volmarias posted:They realistically can't afford to, and you don't want to pay for a bunch of people who literally just learned about this if it turns out that they're only going to give you hot garbage. You are a sucker if you code for a company/government for free.
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Apr 10, 2020 20:20
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ultrafilter posted:The real horror is that New Jersey (and maybe other states) isn't planning on paying the people who are going to work on all these old systems. They want volunteers. Volmarias posted:They realistically can't afford to, and you don't want to pay for a bunch of people who literally just learned about this if it turns out that they're only going to give you hot garbage. If that is the case I can only assume that the NJ managers, administrators and assorted boyars who put out this call for unpaid volunteers are leading from the front by refusing to collect their salaries and bonuses. To do otherwise would be unthinkable.
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Apr 10, 2020 20:55
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Believe me, I'm aware of how dumb this sounds for me to do. No need to tell me about the well here, let alone piss in it.
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Apr 10, 2020 21:21
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COBOL is bad but it’s more that it doesn’t work like a modern language where there’s a small set of language constructs that are put together in a wide number of ways. Doing that requires a parser more sophisticated than machines of the time could handle so they’re simple state machines that change states based on oodles of keywords. To give an idea of what it feels like, think of a procedural SQL since I describe SQL as relational COBOL.
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Apr 10, 2020 21:22
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1337JiveTurkey posted:COBOL is bad but it’s more that it doesn’t work like a modern language where there’s a small set of language constructs that are put together in a wide number of ways. Doing that requires a parser more sophisticated than machines of the time could handle so they’re simple state machines that change states based on oodles of keywords. To give an idea of what it feels like, think of a procedural SQL since I describe SQL as relational COBOL. I’ve heard this described as an orthogonal language design, where there are a small set of features, but they can all interact with each other. It first showed up in Algol68.
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Apr 10, 2020 21:43
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There's also this https://twitter.com/danluu/status/1248778421695434752
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Apr 11, 2020 08:15
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Absurd Alhazred posted:You're right. Maybe the company developing Windows could also come out with a good development environment that works well on their platform instead of depending on whoever develops Visual Studio. Visual Studio is so far ahead of the competition in terms of being a great IDE that I often hear people talk about JetBrains products as "VS but for X" and "VS but without Y". Don't even get me started on things like Eclipse and NetBeans.
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Apr 11, 2020 20:27
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COBOL-based IRC bot: https://github.com/heddwch/WOPO Tooling that allows you to run COBOL from NodeJS: https://github.com/IonicaBizau/node-cobol
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Apr 11, 2020 20:58
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Beamed posted:Visual Studio is so far ahead of the competition in terms of being a great IDE that I often hear people talk about JetBrains products as "VS but for X" and "VS but without Y". Don't even get me started on things like Eclipse and NetBeans. visual studio is garbage but only if you don't already have Stockholm syndrome
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Apr 11, 2020 21:22
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NihilCredo posted:Petition to start calling such Unicode symbols "mimics". http://shapecatcher.com/unicode/info/120263 retur𝗇 http://shapecatcher.com/unicode/info/1400 returո
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Apr 11, 2020 21:25
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Visual Studio is an extremely effective IDE for writing .NET languages in. In my experience it's terrible for writing C++ in, and I don't think the team that maintains it really cares to invest much time in improving that. I believe they see it as a legacy language. Other languages, I couldn't say.
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Apr 11, 2020 23:42
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When Visual Studio works it's fantastic. Perhaps my favorite  touches are intellisense things, it knows which imports I want, which functions I want to call given what I've already called, that I'm handling enum number three because I've already done the first two, lots of clever stuff like that makes C# boilerplate fly out of your fingers. And it's stable. Multiple instances, run this, debug that, smash laptop lid in/out of sleep, no problem. And the memory of how long it took me to get it to run without problems is long gone.But when I'm onboarding someone or reinstalling, I suddenly get errors I've never heard about and they never EVER point to the actual problem. "Hey can you help me run this A? VS says A can't run because B failed to load C. But I have C?" "Ah. You need to install F. I think F is enough by itself, but I'm not sure..." We were joking about this on the team before The Event. When you try to document Microsoft instructions, it's like a blind man giving directions to another blind man in a time before accessibility. "I smashed my head into a wall, then I circled a block three times to the left, then two times to the right, then smashed my head three more times, one block to the left, back, forth, turn around, smash, to the right, to the left, reverse, to the right, and then you'll arrive at Chez Guillaume Ports. I asked the waiter there if that was the best way, my head and legs were aching. He asked me if I had the latest restaurant flyer, which I did. Then he asked me what I've tried to do. After I went through it all, he said that if it worked, that was the correct route."
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Apr 11, 2020 23:45
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Visual Studio used to be my favorite 10 years ago. Easily the only good thing Microsoft has ever made.
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Apr 11, 2020 23:51
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CUDA has been out for over a decade and is one of the hottest architectures in high performance computing but Intellisense still can't parse it. Support for the Nvidia toolchain was added so that you can compile and run CUDA executables but Intellisense fills your IDE with red squiggles
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Apr 11, 2020 23:58
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And like I mentioned earlier, cmake support is there in Visual Studio but extremely bad compared to things like cmake-gui or even ccmake.
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Apr 12, 2020 00:06
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Hammerite posted:Visual Studio is an extremely effective IDE for writing .NET languages in. In my experience it's terrible for writing C++ in, and I don't think the team that maintains it really cares to invest much time in improving that. I believe they see it as a legacy language. Other languages, I couldn't say. I got a pretty decent turnaround on a compilation error in C++ when I sent one to them.
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Apr 12, 2020 00:07
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Beamed posted:Visual Studio is so far ahead of the competition in terms of being a great IDE that I often hear people talk about JetBrains products as "VS but for X" and "VS but without Y". Don't even get me started on things like Eclipse and NetBeans.
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Apr 12, 2020 00:35
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Beamed posted:Visual Studio is so far ahead of the competition in terms of being a great IDE that I often hear people talk about JetBrains products as "VS but for X" and "VS but without Y". Don't even get me started on things like Eclipse and NetBeans. That's because VS was far ahead of the competition for a long time so it became the Kleenex of IDE's. That doesn't mean that it's far ahead of the competition now.
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Apr 12, 2020 00:55
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Volte posted:I prefer JetBrains Rider to Visual Studio for C# dev these days, and CLion for C++ dev. Visual Studio was only ever great compared to the shitshow of other IDEs, and even then, ReSharper was a must-have for a long time. I can't think of anything that Visual Studio does that I miss from a JetBrains IDE. I'm actually with you, but the idea that Visual Studio is somehow this deprecated garbage program is just so antithetical to the experience of actually developing it. Thermopyle posted:That's because VS was far ahead of the competition for a long time so it became the Kleenex of IDE's. I'd probably contend that without JetBrains, VS is still clearly leaps and bounds ahead of any competition.
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Apr 12, 2020 00:56
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Beamed posted:I'd probably contend that without JetBrains, VS is still clearly leaps and bounds ahead of any competition. This may or may not be true, I can't say I spend a lot of time evaluating IDE's over time. If it's accurate, I'm not sure it saves your original statement. I mean...JetBrains is the competition apparently.
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Apr 12, 2020 01:51
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If you're a Microsoft shop then any singular product competition is irrelevant. You use VS, have build and release pipelines in devops and host poo poo on Azure because what originally started as an MSDN license for Visual Studio is now integrated licensing into the entire ecosystem. Rider is a better experience now then VS is so if given a choice (lol) I would use Rider. I also still use Resharper in VS even with the large performance hit at [day job] because of the bulk refactoring tools. The only feature I actively miss when using Rider is "paste JSON as class", which is the real good poo poo right there. Paste JSON as class, bulk rename for correct property capitalization, split into files and adjust namespace. You've got POCOs for a web service all laid out correctly in like a minute.
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Apr 12, 2020 02:34
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The game industry just uses VS. The last platform where you didn't use VS was the PS2, which used MetroWerks CodeWarrior. The one thing it's not good at is understanding C++ when build options aren't defined through project properties (because the project is built with CMake or basically any other external build system). This is basically all games, though. It's sort of impossible, though -- how can visual studio know that the external build tool is going to add "/DFOOBAR" to your compile command line because of a conditional?
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Apr 12, 2020 07:19
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more falafel please posted:The game industry just uses VS. The last platform where you didn't use VS was the PS2, which used MetroWerks CodeWarrior. The one thing it's not good at is understanding C++ when build options aren't defined through project properties (because the project is built with CMake or basically any other external build system). This is basically all games, though. It's sort of impossible, though -- how can visual studio know that the external build tool is going to add "/DFOOBAR" to your compile command line because of a conditional? Maybe they can change the compiler to dump the call parameters to a log file. The IDE would then parse the log file and learn about FOOBAR. The heuristic for things that look like macros could be to make it a warning, but not a error. Paint them yellow, not with a red line. Perhaps the IDE could parse and understand the makefile thing? even simulate the invocation phase until the point the parameters are calculated.
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Apr 12, 2020 07:31
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more falafel please posted:The game industry just uses VS. The last platform where you didn't use VS was the PS2, which used MetroWerks CodeWarrior. The one thing it's not good at is understanding C++ when build options aren't defined through project properties (because the project is built with CMake or basically any other external build system). This is basically all games, though. It's sort of impossible, though -- how can visual studio know that the external build tool is going to add "/DFOOBAR" to your compile command line because of a conditional? Visual Studio can already parse cmake files and it knows how to build using them, that's like 90% of the work needed to make Visual Studio be competent at using cmake. And you can even generate a CMakeCache using cmake and Visual Studio will know how to interpret that and will set up the build appropriately. All the VS developers really need to provide is a usable interface to cmake itself, which they have completely failed to do. This properties files bullshit is... bullshit
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Apr 12, 2020 07:35
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Apr 12, 2020 07:38
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That looks like a lot more than just 10pt.
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Apr 12, 2020 09:36
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Absurd Alhazred posted:I got a pretty decent turnaround on a compilation error in C++ when I sent one to them. That's presumably the compiler team rather than the VS team per se though? I don't know what the teams at Microsoft look like internally QuarkJets posted:CUDA has been out for over a decade and is one of the hottest architectures in high performance computing but Intellisense still can't parse it. Support for the Nvidia toolchain was added so that you can compile and run CUDA executables but Intellisense fills your IDE with red squiggles But it isn't a .NET language right? (I know nothing about it) Like I said, the VS team spends resources on making it hot poo poo for .NET languages and Microsoft's .NET based ecosystem, but they don't spend resources on other languages.
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Apr 12, 2020 12:38
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Hammerite posted:But it isn't a .NET language right? (I know nothing about it) Like I said, the VS team spends resources on making it hot poo poo for .NET languages and Microsoft's .NET based ecosystem, but they don't spend resources on other languages. I mean, here's the release notes for the latest VS quarterly update. Sure there's more stuff for .NET and Typescript than for C++, which is easily explained since business programmers likely outnumber systems and games programmer 10:1, but the ongoing work on C++ isn't insignificant: quote:C++:
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Apr 12, 2020 13:18
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As someone who uses VS all day every day: I love using it, it's the best IDE for C++ work by far, the debugger rules, the editor is powerful, visual assist X improves the intellisense a lot, the debugging tools are fantastic, and memory view is invaluable. It's great! But it is absolutely full of horrible poo poo at the same time. I think the worst parts about it are the fact that you have to dig around in vcxproj and property files if you want to do anything nonstandard since the configuration UI is horrible; the entire property importing thing for stuff like intellisense falls apart instantly when you have to do anything for a platform that isn't heavily supported. It barely supports makefile projects in any meaningful way and needs a bunch of hacks to support debugging a makefile project for another platform. And honestly the one that bites me the most regularly is how you can't configure the colors of the IDE without it being the most pain in the rear end hours-long process. All in all though, if you're just on the fast-path to do Windows C++ Things then it's by far the best IDE out there (and probably still the best even with the pains for more obscure platforms; when possible. I just really wish I could configure a custom debugger/compiler easier)
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Apr 12, 2020 13:21
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Jewel posted:As someone who uses VS all day every day: I love using it, it's the best IDE for C++ work by far, the debugger rules, the editor is powerful, visual assist X improves the intellisense a lot, the debugging tools are fantastic, and memory view is invaluable. It's great! But it is absolutely full of horrible poo poo at the same time. So...how many times a year do you spend time really evaluating the competition? (which, apparently, is only Jetbrains?)
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Apr 12, 2020 17:39
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Hammerite posted:That's presumably the compiler team rather than the VS team per se though? I don't know what the teams at Microsoft look like internally Maybe? quote:But it isn't a .NET language right? (I know nothing about it) Like I said, the VS team spends resources on making it hot poo poo for .NET languages and Microsoft's .NET based ecosystem, but they don't spend resources on other languages. They keep adding new C++ features and 2019 has way better template parsing for IntelliSense error marking and compile-time error reporting. I'm sorry, I don't get the impression that they're not taking C++ seriously enough, but maybe their C# tools are just way more impressive and I don't know because I've not had a chance to use them much.
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Apr 12, 2020 17:48
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C# is also much easier to make a good IDE for than C++ for like twenty reasons.
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Apr 12, 2020 18:02
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