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Jaeluni Asjil posted:What does AAPG stand for? I tried googling but all I got was American Association of Petroleum Geologists and I'm sure that isn't what it means here should be APPG i think for all-party parliamentary group
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Apr 13, 2020 10:46
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Jaeluni Asjil posted:What does AAPG stand for? I tried googling but all I got was American Association of Petroleum Geologists and I'm sure that isn't what it means here Something something Parliamentary Group.
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Apr 13, 2020 10:47
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If nothing else centrist twitter is melting the gently caress down today which is very funny indeed
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Apr 13, 2020 10:47
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ThomasPaine posted:If nothing else centrist twitter is melting the gently caress down today which is very funny indeed seeing the light or complaining that people are complaining about their loving perfidy EDIT actually don't bother answering, why the gently caress do I care?
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Apr 13, 2020 10:49
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Guavanaut posted:If I was confident that I could get at least half of the 560,000 to join me then I would. Otherwise it's a bit "could you imagine if the Klan became >50% African American and Jewish" in terms of trying to steer the sewage tanker around by throwing money at it. I'm not sure how much power the Conservative membership actually has. It's a far less democratic institution than Labour as far as I recall, with the power firmly in the hands of MPs and CCHQ. I'm just tickled by the idea of the Tories slowly becoming a socialist party in policy and neither the press nor the general public noticing. big scary monsters fucked around with this message at 11:00 on Apr 13, 2020 |
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Apr 13, 2020 10:49
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mehall posted:The General Secretary until May of 2018 was aligned perfectly with the GLU, no change could be made by the party without it being the GS's move. The NEC can hire and dismiss the GS or any directorial staff at will - albeit the use of this power is contentious. That isn't really relevant for the inquiry however... If the report submission maintains: the GS was the obstruction, then the obvious rejoinder is: if this was so obvious, then why didn't the NEC move against the GS. If the argument is that the NEC was before then too finely balanced (even with clean slate wins in 2016 and 2017) and it was too risky to do so, then any third party audit would rightly point out that this does not excuse the party which the faction is voluntarily a faction of. Internal factional struggle is not, in fact, an acceptable excuse of corporate misgovernance (since the report chooses to pin it on corporate misgovernance). ronya fucked around with this message at 10:53 on Apr 13, 2020 |
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Apr 13, 2020 10:50
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I dunno, even the last Labour manifesto didn't really go far enough for me. If I'm going to start negotiating it may as well be from the position I want than compromising before I've begun. If you choose to stick in Labour, good, there's plenty of potential and I'll still vote for Labour unless another party comes along more aligned with my views, and there's enough left leaning people to undertake this project and others. Maybe with another leader I'd believe that it could change - but I also don't just want to sit around for half a decade to see what happens with Starmer. I'm not sure what the alternative is - meme magic, locally focused charitable work, general strikes, an alternative party - but I think just trying the same thing over and over again could get frustrating.
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Apr 13, 2020 10:52
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Can you sum this up and actually explain the acronyms, or do we have to do a deep dive on your deep dive?
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Apr 13, 2020 10:53
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ronya posted:The NEC can hire and dismiss the GS or any directorial staff at will - albeit the use of this power is contentious. If the report maintains: the GS was the obstruction, then the obvious rejoinder is: then why didn't the NEC move against the GS. If the argument is that the NEC was before then too finely balanced (even with clean slate wins in 2016 and 2017) Clean slate wins of what? You are aware most of the NEC isn't elected by the membership right?
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Apr 13, 2020 10:54
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justcola posted:meme magic https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBJVVhn7iuo
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Apr 13, 2020 10:56
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lol extremely cool https://twitter.com/HichamYezza/status/1249638171941515264?s=20
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Apr 13, 2020 11:00
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ThomasPaine posted:With objective proof of corruption, racism, and and sabotage amongst the Labour right, and a decent candidate with socialist politics but a bit of cunning and ruthlessness about them? Rather a lot, I'd think. ...Such as? Momentum won a bunch of slates (from what it felt) and we had Corbyn in power and all this was happening then and that was when the going was good. Like what's the actual reason to bother being in the party, I was in the party and we couldn't even get our lovely MP out, and that's when things were going well, so what actual power do the members have besides "Leave and do something better" Let's say Starmer does make this Oldknow person general secretary, what can the members do about it, when he's fully aware he can just not listen to them. Chucat fucked around with this message at 11:03 on Apr 13, 2020 |
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Apr 13, 2020 11:00
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Chucat posted:...Such as? I think help each other out more than anything. That is what mutualism is for right? That and working together.
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Apr 13, 2020 11:03
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Josef bugman posted:Can you sum this up and actually explain the acronyms, or do we have to do a deep dive on your deep dive? ronya is saying its the parties fault they didn't remove the entrenched radical organisation that had made this literally impossible by occupying every position that could remove any of the others, and hoping you don't notice that the lock on power was solid personally i think the organised conspiracy to threaten the mental wellbeing and safety of minority groups in a political space is A Bad Thing that should be addressed but this is probably something they'd say is actually liberalism oh hey someone left the political equivalent of a loaded assault weapon lying around, hope you all arent speaking to every union branch and clp officer in your contact book right now.
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Apr 13, 2020 11:05
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Barry Foster posted:seeing the light or complaining that people are complaining about their loving perfidy I'm sure you can guess. Thread favourite James Ball is currently saying that both sides are as bad as each other because leaking the report was technically a data protection breach Lots of accusations that it covers up piles of antisemitism cases from people who desperately want that to be true. I'm actually feeling good. There's a sense of panic amongst all the right people. They know they're going to struggle to spin this in a way they don't look terrible.
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Apr 13, 2020 11:05
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Josef bugman posted:Can you sum this up and actually explain the acronyms, or do we have to do a deep dive on your deep dive? ronya posted:Although the LOTO's office does not directly oversee the GSO, all answer to the ruling body of the party, i.e., the Labour NEC ronya posted:the left only controlled the NEC by a landslide after the NEC 2018 elections ronya posted:Formby-period reforms proceeded to address where previous management was ineffectual I have decoded a ronya post. Konrad Curze posted:Death is nothing compared to vindication
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Apr 13, 2020 11:07
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Jose posted:lol extremely cool  50 million pints going to waste! Ignore the 10,000 dead though, you can read about what 'What Boris Johnson's Greek hero teaches us about epidemics'. China has 100 new cases, ignore our 5200 cases.
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Apr 13, 2020 11:07
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Josef bugman posted:I think help each other out more than anything. That is what mutualism is for right? That's nothing to do with the Labour Party though. I don't have to give money to a bunch of people that brag about Diane Abbott crying in a bathroom in order to "help people out". The only interesting part about this to me is: 1) The report was about 2017, so what was going on in 2019? AND 2) How much of that stuff would change now that Starmer is in power? I think Ronya answered this but reading Ronya's posts make me enter a state of torpor (sorry Ronya).
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Apr 13, 2020 11:07
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Chucat posted:...Such as? im not going to pretend this is how I want to spend energy during a pandemic but if the left cannot organise their CLPs to, at least, seriously harm the right wing technocrats with this then we'd be loving useless at worker councils or similar actually-democratic organising too.
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Apr 13, 2020 11:09
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As we've seen with UKIP/Brexit Party it is possible to steer policy decisions and public opinion outside of the two main parties. Albeit, a left enterprise would not get nearly as much adorning press but I do think it could be more worthwhile than propping up a dying party.
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Apr 13, 2020 11:10
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feedmegin posted:Clean slate wins of what? You are aware most of the NEC isn't elected by the membership right? the CLP reps up for grabs that year, which were what mattered until 2017 when most of the unions were assumed to side with the left and the affiliates/regions with the right
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Apr 13, 2020 11:11
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Spangly A posted:im not going to pretend this is how I want to spend energy during a pandemic but if the left cannot organise their CLPs to, at least, seriously harm the right wing technocrats with this then we'd be loving useless at worker councils or similar actually-democratic organising too. How do they harm them? Make angry posts on twitter? Send them emails? Threaten to leave? Leave? Throw bricks through their windows?
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Apr 13, 2020 11:11
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Chucat posted:...Such as? I think we need to become considerably more militant and relentlessly bully these nerds until they cry and leave, tbqh. No safe spaces for fash or libs. Only half joking. More seriously, the membership has as much power as it chooses to give itself. Making people realise what power is, how to use it, and when they have it (and when they don't!) would be a good start. The majority of the membership are left leaning and could absolutely force their will onto the party if they mobilised effectively. Momentum, like Corbyn, were too polite and too constrained by official bureaucratic regulations. I'm cautiously hopeful this new Forward Momentum group might start to challenge that MO, slightly skeptical but interested enough to keep my eye on them.
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Apr 13, 2020 11:11
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Wasn't Sam Matthews the very first person to appear in that Labour antisemitism smear programme?
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Apr 13, 2020 11:12
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Kaveman posted:As we've seen with UKIP/Brexit Party it is possible to steer policy decisions and public opinion outside of the two main parties. Albeit, a left enterprise would not get nearly as much adorning press but I do think it could be more worthwhile than propping up a dying party. Satanism is praxis https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=amB2Ol6wihg
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Apr 13, 2020 11:15
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Those people advocating staying in the party to change it from within - how? What's the mechanism? I genuinely don't understand how a declining post-Corbyn membership is supposed to root out the numerous bad actors within the party now when it couldn't be done over the past five years. E: Ah I just saw Chucat asking the exact same thing, lol TACD fucked around with this message at 11:20 on Apr 13, 2020 |
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Apr 13, 2020 11:15
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Spangly A posted:ronya is saying its the parties fault they didn't remove the entrenched radical organisation that had made this literally impossible by occupying every position that could remove any of the others, and hoping you don't notice that the lock on power was solid Ah so it's a standard Ronya post of "I am wrong, but I enjoy using a lot of words to sounds right"? I don't want to come across as too harsh here Ronya, but sometimes it really does seem that you prefer the appearence of things to the things that exist.
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Apr 13, 2020 11:15
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Chucat posted:That's nothing to do with the Labour Party though. I don't have to give money to a bunch of people that brag about Diane Abbott crying in a bathroom in order to "help people out". shorter answer attempt then... 1) the report was not about 2017 - rather it divides the period into a pre-Formby-gen-sec and post-Formby-gen-sec period. It does not set out to address GE2017 (or GE2019). However, its argument for debilitating factionalism (to the extent of disrupting the GLU's work on antisemitism) pre-Formby necessarily includes many juicy examples of the GLU staff's antipathy to the leadership, which is v interesting regarding GE2017 on a separate note 2) probably not very much, not directly. The report itself is confident that the Formby reforms have thoroughly addressed the problems it identifies pre-Formby, so there is nothing left to do. The political impact for Starmer however is probably to seize the opportunity to centralize powers over Labour HQ under the Leader's Office. ronya fucked around with this message at 11:20 on Apr 13, 2020 |
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Apr 13, 2020 11:18
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ThomasPaine posted:I think we need to become considerably more militant and relentlessly bully these nerds until they cry and leave, tbqh. No safe spaces for fash or libs. Okay, here's a case study for you to think about : - The Morning Star is a leftwing newspaper, the paper is also full of terfs, the paper has been printing terf stuff for years now. - Despite receiving emails and complaints for ages about the terf stuff, the paper didn't do anything at all. - A few months ago, the paper printed a really, really bad anti-trans cartoon. - At this point, big unions got really, really mad at them and threatened to pull funding from the paper and not support it financially. - The paper printed several apologies and promised to look into how it happened. - Despite this, the paper is still full of terfs and they still think of terf things. At any point, people could just buy shares in the paper and then flood an AGM, this has never happened. How do you fix the Morning Star's terf problem? If you can't fix a relatively sympathetic organization with a staff size in the low tens that you can realistically do heavy entryism on AND easily annihilate its funding, how the gently caress do you fix an actively antagonistic organization with a ton of money behind it? Chucat fucked around with this message at 11:22 on Apr 13, 2020 |
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Apr 13, 2020 11:19
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Is anyone in the thread advocating for any kind of extraparliamentary organization be it through community organizing or tenant's unions or mutual aid networks or nah Reformism (especially within the Labour Part which even way back historically was one of the few European socdem parties that didn't have Marxist roots), was always going to be a dead end and this feels like spam especially since I' haven't posted in UKMT for a while but I will drop this as a starting point for anyone who is interested, I just dunno how most of the people here could stomach organizing with Labour to begin with in spite of the alternatives being small which leads to something of a chicken-and-egg problem if people don't join them because they are considered irrelevant or incapable of effecting change I'm happy to be with the IWW tho
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Apr 13, 2020 11:23
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Chucat posted:How do you fix the Morning Star's terf problem?
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Apr 13, 2020 11:25
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Spangly A posted:im not going to pretend this is how I want to spend energy during a pandemic but if the left cannot organise their CLPs to, at least, seriously harm the right wing technocrats with this then we'd be loving useless at worker councils or similar actually-democratic organising too. sent some emails, and if/when I get a mealy mouthed response (or none at all) then I'll start thinking about delivering some bricks
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Apr 13, 2020 11:27
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TACD posted:Yea, this is why I don't have any faith in the 'stay in Labour to change it!' philosophy. What's the case study for anything like this being successful that we should be working from? Because if there isn't then it feels as useless as online petitions or boycotts. Because it's a start. Alongside that are there other organisations that can help? I'd gladly join them/ help out.
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Apr 13, 2020 11:27
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Chucat posted:Okay, here's a case study for you to think about : As I say, militancy. You don't ask politely. You're not an external force to them. You create parallel power structures within the party while using every dirty trick in the book to undermine your enemies, and when your parallel power structure is big and influential enough, you stop recognising their authority over you and dare them to assert their power. And they can't. Yes, this will not be easy, but all big institutional changes seem fanciful until suddenly they're not. E: as an example, New Labour thoroughly rewrote the rule book. No one in the 80s would have thought clause 4 would be completely hollowed within a few years. ThomasPaine fucked around with this message at 11:34 on Apr 13, 2020 |
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Apr 13, 2020 11:28
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https://twitter.com/JamesCleverly/status/992871883438788609?s=20
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Apr 13, 2020 11:29
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ThomasPaine posted:As I say, militancy. You don't ask politely. You're not an external force to them. You create parallel power structures within the party while using every dirty trick in the book to undermine your enemies, and when your parallel power structure is big and influential enough, you stop recognising their authority over you and dare them to assert their power. And they can't. Or we stop playing their rigged-rear end game and leave, start organisations that aren't riddled with spineless parasites who'll throw a few thousand innocents under the bus so they can crack smarmy jokes on Whatsapp.
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Apr 13, 2020 11:33
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21st century society is remarkably peaceful and averse to the use of direct violence, historically. Given the threat of violence has been vital in forcing changes, this has been detrimental to the left.
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Apr 13, 2020 11:34
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Bobstar posted:Looking at the reply to this "a job guarantee is better", what are some leftist thoughts on this? Because I'm on board with the idea that work isn't in itself good, and that well-distributed idleness is a noble goal. But right now there's a lot of good stuff that needs doing, and in terms of giving workers power against terrible bosses, I feel like "screw you, I'm going to get a guaranteed useful job" is a better threat than "screw you, I'm going to live off UBI (which is probably too low and vulnerable to cutting due to a scrounger narrative in the long term)" Job guarantees are a societal dead end because there's simply not enough work that needs doing, and every year the balance shifts further (particularly if this work-from-home revolution sticks and entire industries built around commuters and lunch breaks disappear). We end up with governments paying companies to hire people to move bags of sand from one side of a room to the other, and back again. Or Rome not bothering to pursue technological advances because "then what would the slaves do?" We work to live, we don't live to work.
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Apr 13, 2020 11:35
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Josef bugman posted:Because it's a start. ThomasPaine posted:As I say, militancy. You don't ask politely. You're not an external force to them. You create parallel power structures within the party while using every dirty trick in the book to undermine your enemies, and when your parallel power structure is big and influential enough, you stop recognising their authority over you and dare them to assert their power. And they can't. I'm completely uneducated about any of this and there's probably some good books I should read, but I feel like a lot of other people are in the same situation - I want to help improve things, but just saying 'get involved' and 'organise' is not a useful instruction to somebody like me who has literally never in his life seen anything materially improve as the result of politics or organised action in general and therefore has no idea of what successful organisation looks like, and who doubts that such a thing is even possible any more.
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Apr 13, 2020 11:41
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TACD posted:I'm completely uneducated about any of this and there's probably some good books I should read, but I feel like a lot of other people are in the same situation - I want to help improve things, but just saying 'get involved' and 'organise' is not a useful instruction to somebody like me who has literally never in his life seen anything materially improve as the result of politics or organised action in general and therefore has no idea of what successful organisation looks like, and who doubts that such a thing is even possible any more. Extremely same
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Apr 13, 2020 11:43
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