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brian posted:the left needs its own party/extra parliamentary group because the left is dumb as poo poo and will concede things in good faith to people working in bad faith consistently, it also needs direct democracy or the same thing will happen 10 years from now regardless of how well it goes at first, as proven by momentum's actions in the last GE regarding parachuting and NEC appointments (and approval of factional expulsions). It's what power does to people, it's not new and there's these guys called proudhon, bakunin, malatesta and kropotkin who will more than happily fill you in on why it's a function of hierarchical systems if you're interested. Even if it means there's a split, the lack of any organised left party to push centrists of all stripes to the left is a huge issue and one of the main problems with the rise (and subsequent fall) of the USSR and its effects on non-revolutionary labour organisation and leftist power to pressure, it's why neoliberalism became consensus and capitalism needs to be threatened for it to ever veer away from pure laissez faire friedmanism I don't disagree but I also don't know how particularly realistic it is that any new party wouldn't go the way of Scargill's Socialist Labour, Respect, or any of the other attempts to start something to the left of Labour. With the way FPTP works it's incredibly different for a non-major party to get any momentum. The only real way you could do it is if it's an SDP style deal of a bunch of MPs & councillors walking from the Labour Party & I genuinely think that is unlikely to happen because people like Corbyn & McDonnell define themselves by their membership of that party. I absolutely think the left needs to do what it can to pull back after decades of neoliberal hell, I thought Corbyn leading Labour was the best, most realistic way to go about that. Unfortunately it also had to be accompanied with a certain ruthlessness as far as fixing the party machinery which the Blairites did such a stand-up job in gunking up. And as I stand now I don't know what the next step is. I can see why people want to work within the Labour Party. I can see why people think it'll never be allowed to win on a properly socialist platform. I guess the next best thing would be whatever Momentum is called now being more willing to operate more outwith the Party but again, you've got the people in charge of that like Lansmann who is very much Labour 'Til I Die & seems to have a bit of that democratic centralism urge as far as the running of Momentum goes. TL;DR I have no loving idea.
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Apr 13, 2020 13:11
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Catboy Autonomist posted:Is anyone in the thread advocating for any kind of extraparliamentary organization be it through community organizing or tenant's unions or mutual aid networks or nah Just FYI Libcom is run by a rapist who’s been hounded out by most decent leftists in London. Freedom News and Occupy Magazine are better. In terms of getting involved in organising the IWW is full of sound people. Also check out organisations like RS21 (revolutionary socialists), Plan C (quite academic and theoretical but back good stuff, anarchist-communist), GAF (Green Anticapitalist Front, mostly anarchists but open to anyone), or AFed (anarchist federation, big and old. Good eggs, can be a bit light on direct action for an anarchist group). Any questions about getting involved in the proper left hmu
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Apr 13, 2020 13:18
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I've not posted here since December, and generally tried to avoid reading the thread or politics news or Twitter, because I've found the entire thing just enraging and exhausting. I never got around to actually joining the Labour party - beginning with when I registered as a support to vote for Corbyn in the first leadership election. I got an email to say that they couldn't find me on the electoral roll, I replied with a picture of my polling card, and got total silence as a response. I've since donated occasionally, but I haven't pushed to join or anything. I know that this is what the centrists want, but at the same time, I cannot bring myself to fight people who are apparently my side to just to have the tiniest voice in an organisation that is supposed to exist for exactly that purpose in the first place. That energy is supposed to be used to fight the loving Tories, and I have mustered it for that purpose. I just don't have enough to also have to fight the Labour party itself to turn it back into what it's supposed to be. I have unending respect for those who do, though. I hope it's enough. I want to believe that if you just act with people's best interests in mind, and in good faith, things will probably work out in the end. Corbyn does too, that's why I liked him. And a bunch of loving snakes poured their energy into destroying him for it. If what remains of the Labour party now is unable to cast them out for that because of the concentration of power they have claimed at the top, then I don't see what the point is in encouraging the mass socialist movement to join and sign up under their banner just to be taken for granted yet again. I won't join a party that isn't on my side just to fight it from the inside, and if Labour is on my side, Starmer et al needs to loving prove it.
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Apr 13, 2020 13:23
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Jakabite posted:RS21 So, who are these guys, and what do they do that's cool?
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Apr 13, 2020 13:25
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Only a tiny portion of the people leaving the party will ever support anything with Lansman attached, as evidenced by almost every reaction to the Forward Momentum/momentum reform conversation that happened a couple of days ago and I agree with them, his history is one of authoritarianism and self promotion at the cost of the movement and any honest attempt to unite the actual left will need to reckon with this and the contested expulsions, which genuinely needs to happen and can't keep being dismissed, otherwise you will definitely end up with a splintered left. Anyway the primary reason for the loss of any idea what to do when the parliamentary route fails due to a system opposed to its success is because there is no extraparliamentary wing of the left anymore, the union laws and the decades of failures of union management have neutered that, but as we're seeing in america, as things get worse unions get either radicalised or replaced and wildcat strikes become a thing again and with the post COVID recession and another round of 'inevitable' austerity and transfer of wealth from poor to rich we're very very likely to end up in this situation. Really the best thing the left can do right now is basic workplace organising, pressure within unions to radicalise and preparing an ideologically consistent and strong organisation that these forces can coalesce around. The left wins power, even in an electoral context, from having enough of a threat to ensure at the very least a fair electoral process and the best (non-violent) way we know of is by withholding economic power, but without that it gets into this endless loop of accepting bad narratives around its failures. edit: will happily back that the libcom guy is a twat
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Apr 13, 2020 13:28
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Loving this leadership https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1249673296968331272?s=19
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Apr 13, 2020 13:28
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I'm staying in the party for now, with the full intention of being as loud and confrontational about this as I can. I'm moving to Ilford soon so I mean to get Tarry to pick a side, and Streeting is in the next constituency. In spite of it all the Corbyn leadership period did a lot, as we see by coming so close in spite of it all, and I think the more of us that stay the worse we can make it for these pricks. I don't judge anyone for leaving, hopefully something can be done that they can be drawn back to help with. I'm not really aware of a plan of what to do outside the party, part of why I'm staying, but im willing to help with that too. I think taking the Labour party back, even if it means wrecking it first, is more efficient than establishing a new one, unless a split can be forced. The Labour right represents an obstacle we need to go through one way or another, we can't just go around.
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Apr 13, 2020 13:31
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Jakabite posted:Just FYI Libcom is run by a rapist who’s been hounded out by most decent leftists in London. Huh, that's good to know
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Apr 13, 2020 13:31
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sassassin posted:This will be a fine way for middlemen (job providers) to get their cut of tax payer money.
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Apr 13, 2020 13:32
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Guavanaut posted:I have a visceral reaction to any two letter two number revolutionary group because it seems 90% of them are like NS88 secret nazi code BS. Stands for Revolutionary Socialism in the 21st Century. They’re one of the groups I know less about but most recently they organised a lot of the Wet’su’weten solidarity stuff in London. They have a fairly slick website if I remember right. A lot of effort on the part of p much every lefty group is going into mutual aid right now - essentially that translates into making sure they’re organised horizontally and without space for Labour melts and centrists to turn things their way, and pushing politics as a key part of MA. If big general purpose groups aren’t your thing, there are organisations which tackle specific symptoms of capitalism while also being political, like London Renters’ Union (much more radical than most unions) and things like Food Not Bombs, Streets Kitchen, etc. There’s also London Antifascist Assembly (LAFA) for Antifa stuff - London Antifascists (LAF) are the more closed group but have a toxic culture of covering up abuse in their ranks. We recently expelled them from the coalition that forms LAFA, so steer clear imo. Really happy to go more into this with people. I’m London based but can give broad recommendations nationwide. Getting into the radical left scene can be intimidating but it’s all about finding what you care about and the groups that work for you.
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Apr 13, 2020 13:34
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Jose posted:Loving this leadership This is unironically what the melts meant by "finally proper opposition"
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Apr 13, 2020 13:41
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justcola posted:Even though I disagree with you about Labour, you're one of my favourite posters in this thread in how even handed and right thinking you are about stuff, so I'm glad you're getting involved and stuff and you definitely have the skills and attitude to help. I think the Even handed bit is just Liberal leaving the body. But thank you justcola. It is really appreciated! Thanks for the info as well Jakabite. Will be seeing who to join with!
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Apr 13, 2020 13:42
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Josef bugman posted:I think the Even handed bit is just Liberal leaving the body. But thank you justcola. It is really appreciated! GAF are a good bunch, would highly recommend  they’re doing a series of reading groups and live streams during lockdown - first one this Wednesday on disaster capitalism!
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Apr 13, 2020 13:45
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what https://twitter.com/francesweetman/status/1249668730050748423?s=19
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Apr 13, 2020 13:48
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https://twitter.com/striker990/status/1249670303141310468
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Apr 13, 2020 13:51
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Independent's coverage of the report. Somewhat better than the Graun's! https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/labour-leak-report-corbyn-election-whatsapp-antisemitism-tories-yougov-poll-a9462456.html
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Apr 13, 2020 13:53
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Every day I think centrists can't get more laughable and every day I'm proven wrong. Do they actually hear themselves?
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Apr 13, 2020 13:53
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once again, weetman is, as always, very aware of what she's doing and your reaction to it
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Apr 13, 2020 13:58
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ThomasPaine posted:Every day I think centrists can't get more laughable and every day I'm proven wrong. What did we say about weetposting?
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Apr 13, 2020 13:58
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This is something that we can coalesce around- we're victims. Everyone from Diane Abbott, Andy "too left wing" Burnham, the doorstep campaigners from 2017, Jewish members whose concerns were silenced because they didn't fit the trot hunt. There's an incredibly broad caucus forming within the party, and we all want to make sure that a handful of saboteurs are never able to cost us an election again. We're big enough to change Labour for the better. This is the worst moment to walk away.
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Apr 13, 2020 13:59
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Miftan posted:What did we say about weetposting? Also the replies to that one are just  , like what loving world do they live in?
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Apr 13, 2020 14:00
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Jakabite posted:Just FYI Libcom is run by a rapist who’s been hounded out by most decent leftists in London. wait what the gently caress I've never heard this before
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Apr 13, 2020 14:01
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This is encouraging me to stay tbh. NO ONE CAN SORT MY FAR LEFT MESS OUT.
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Apr 13, 2020 14:07
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when do you reckon we'll hear from starmer? surely someone in charge has to acknowledge it today, even leaving aside it being all over twitter it's in a national newspaper and MPs are commenting on it he should have plenty of time to come up with a statement given he's not particularly busy opposing the government at the moment
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Apr 13, 2020 14:07
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Venomous posted:wait what the gently caress I've never heard this before Unfortunately very few people had until late last year.
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Apr 13, 2020 14:08
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Guavanaut posted:There was a prisoner exchange at the end of February, weets are allowed in moderation in exchange for Shaun J Lawson going in the piss var. https://twitter.com/shaunjlawson/status/1249617031110045697 (thread goes on forever as predicted)
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Apr 13, 2020 14:09
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Lol that starmer is quite likely to piss off both factions by trying to remain in the middle
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Apr 13, 2020 14:09
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now is not the time for investigation and reconciliation for their own sake, now is the the time for constructively keeping as quiet and possible and hoping no one notices I'm supposed to be the leader of the party
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Apr 13, 2020 14:12
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Guavanaut posted:And I'm going to break that rule now, because his four month long keyboard attack has just gotten round to being right for a bit. Lawson is honestly stressful to follow because he bounces between decent takes and insane lib meltdowns on the daily and is incapable of communicating in anything but 50+ tweet threads
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Apr 13, 2020 14:12
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ThomasPaine posted:what Presumably she's talking about the actual act of leaking the document rather than all the stuff in it, as damaging to labour right now and the fault of leftists for doing it.
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Apr 13, 2020 14:16
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XMNN posted:when do you reckon we'll hear from starmer? surely someone in charge has to acknowledge it today, even leaving aside it being all over twitter it's in a national newspaper and MPs are commenting on it I'm kind of glad that this has come out now because what he does in response to this is going to be a really good test for whether or not he's just "not my choice but fine" or "something to be worried about". With my conciliatory hat on I feel like OK yes I'd much rather we had a decent socialist leader and everyone just agreed but failing that it has to be someone who at least believes that Labour is a broad church and wouldn't stand for this lovely subterfuge just because their particular faction isn't holding the reins. He absolutely has to come out of this making it clear that this kind of poo poo isn't going to fly again and not covering up for the wrecking actions of Captain Cupcake and his acolytes.
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Apr 13, 2020 14:17
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Can't believe some of the poo poo I'm reading on twitter - people (from the right obviously) claiming the report shows the LEFT weren't interested in winning elections and so on. Have they read it? They are completely mad. I think I'll have to take the rest of the day off it for the good of my blood pressure.
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Apr 13, 2020 14:18
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NotJustANumber99 posted:Presumably she's talking about the actual act of leaking the document rather than all the stuff in it, as damaging to labour right now and the fault of leftists for doing it. I'm having visions of a nasty future timeline where all the evil gremlins get nice payouts from Labour as a result of their personal data having been leaked and causing them reputational damage.
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Apr 13, 2020 14:20
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the only thing I'm concerned about is the unredacted names of complainants which are allegedly(? I'm sure that someone mentioned those but I'm not feeling up to looking through it rn) in there, other than that this is probably the best possible time for this report to come out as we're 4+ years away from the next general election and the public are a bit distracted right now although the BBC is looking for something to distract from Boris' mounting death toll, so who knows they might decide to make a big deal of it
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Apr 13, 2020 14:21
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What would the point be in the left splitting from Labour and forming a new party, FPTP prevents any small party from gaining seats (except in the case of some weird politics resetting event like the Scottish Referendum).
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Apr 13, 2020 14:36
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In a mild attempt at relieving the stress of that loving report, I present some birds that dropped in while I was having lunch. First up is a Robin:  Second is what I reckon must be the goon-approved official bird of E/N, the dunnock:  Dunnocks are goony because: - They are poly - They eat rear end https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunnock#Mating_systems
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Apr 13, 2020 14:38
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imo if you view starmer as something other than the right's chosen candidate you're a beautiful person who thinks the world is a much better place than it is
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Apr 13, 2020 14:39
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StarkingBarfish posted:In a mild attempt at relieving the stress of that loving report, I present some birds that dropped in while I was having lunch. First up is a Robin:  nature is beautiful
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Apr 13, 2020 14:40
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https://twitter.com/markgrimshaw16/status/1249646644942995456 Brings back memories of this classic episode from the archives: https://twitter.com/thismorning/status/1024682219204489217?lang=en
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Apr 13, 2020 14:42
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keep punching joe posted:What would the point be in the left splitting from Labour and forming a new party, FPTP prevents any small party from gaining seats (except in the case of some weird politics resetting event like the Scottish Referendum). If the left could split and retain the unions it wouldn't be the small party - but that's a monumentally huge if, and given that one of the biggest unions has at least one of these arseholes in its SMT seems unlikely.
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Apr 13, 2020 14:43
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