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What does being in an affiliated union get you in terms of a say in Labour's direction? Do you still get a personal vote, or is it aggregated across each union? Edit: errr what is there to say about 152... 15th February 1971 was the day the UK and Ireland switched to decimal currency, and is therefore a day of mourning for kippers (probably) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decimal_Day spiderbot fucked around with this message at 13:11 on Apr 15, 2020 |
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Apr 15, 2020 13:02
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Rustybear posted:sorry probably teaching a lot of this thread to suck eggs but... It’s because blairities and brownites are fundamentally just doing what the Tories are doing but turning the knobs back a bit. People who want controls on immigration, for instance aren’t going to vote for some milquetoast “some controls on immigration” a la milliband, they’re going to vote for the full thing that the tories or UKIP are offering. Taking this stupid middle ground in this way is entirely why they kept losing. People aren’t stupid and they’re generally speaking, not going to vote for something that keeps hurting them, but maybe “a bit less of it”, they’re going to vote for a complete change. I think labours meteoric rise in 2017 kinda showed this when Corbyn offered them something other than “maybe you get hosed over slightly less Hard by the energy companies”
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Apr 15, 2020 13:06
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OwlFancier posted:As opposed to non electoral revolutionary socialism which has seen great success in the last 60 years. e.g. With the Angolan Bush War and the end of apartheid. Corbyn was a moderate and (both as a strength and a weakness) listened to all sides. But there was nobody to the left to make him look so.
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Apr 15, 2020 13:06
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Guavanaut posted:keir "pasty" starmer I was waiting for this, thank you. Pistol_Pete posted:It can't be emphasised enough that the Labour right absolutely want left-wing members to be cancelling their memberships: every leftie who storms off makes the Labour right that little bit more powerful within the party. I think this is bang on - the folks who are themselves, or even just advocating to others leaving the party and cancelling their memberships are more than likely looking for a means to vent their disappointment and frustration at the outcome and the evident uselessness of Starmer. They want to be proactive and take some sort of action - any action - that says "This bullshit is not on. I do not like. I do not want. I am using my voice and means to tell you this", and I commend that. But you're right, it absolutely plays into the hands of the right elements of the party. It doesn't help that the utter vitriol and bile being spat at the left-wing members by the right side of the party makes it increasingly grating, but they're shooting themselves in the foot - like it or not, their strategy hinges on being able to court the left-wing elements of the party. If they can't do that, they can't unseat the Tories, so come election time I expect them to be showing up with flowers and choccies and trying to airbrush over all this nastiness - the work the left have to do comes much before that time, in the here and now, to be active and make the right's bargaining position that much weaker and our own stronger.
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Apr 15, 2020 13:06
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GMB joining Unison in the 'poo poo union' rankings. https://twitter.com/labourlist/status/1250385046386532352?s=21
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Apr 15, 2020 13:06
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Guavanaut posted:Non electoral revolutionary socialism does a great job of getting people to come to the talking table, or to get support for more moderate positions. I can't think of any sort of direct action or threat of action with that effect in the UK, however. Which I could either ascribe to the inherent cowardice of the british race or, like, societal conditions and that. And I'm probably gonna go with the latter.
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Apr 15, 2020 13:09
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DeadButDelicious posted:their strategy hinges on being able to court the left-wing elements of the party. If they can't do that, they can't unseat the Tories, so come election time I expect them to be showing up with flowers and choccies and trying to airbrush over all this nastiness. They'll just run a Democratic Party style 'vote for us or get Boris' wedge, it's all they know. Or they'll abandon the left in favour of courting legitimately concerned former UKIP voters or some such. Honestly i hope you're right but it's far from certain that they think they 'need' the left.
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Apr 15, 2020 13:16
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Materialism is dead Long live meme magic! Personally I'm gonna stay in the party until they kick me out for voting Scottish greens in the 2021 GE
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Apr 15, 2020 13:17
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Except plenty of people will vote for boris because they like him and agree with him. "Vote for us we're not the tories" has been the labour pitch for a long time before corbyn and it didn't work then.
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Apr 15, 2020 13:17
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Darth Walrus posted:GMB joining Unison in the 'poo poo union' rankings. No surprise there. Used to be a member, and they were absolutely gently caress all help when I ended up having to take a previous employer to tribunal. They were far more concerned with sweeping things under the rug than actually standing up for one of their members. (I won the tribunal, got awarded >20k and tore my membership card into pieces) Tbh the way those fucks acted put me off turning to left wing thought for a good five years or so.
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Apr 15, 2020 13:19
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This report gives a pretty good opportunity to hit the Labour right where it hurts, and if Starmer fucks up the response, as he looks likely to do, it gives an opportunity to kneecap any lurch to the right he might be planning or maybe even force him out and get someone with a spine into the leader's chair. So it seems like a bad tactical choice to quit Labour at least until we see how this whole thing shakes out.
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Apr 15, 2020 13:20
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Darth Walrus posted:GMB joining Unison in the 'poo poo union' rankings. lol this investigation into all the money that I took from the till is stressing me out and you're a bad employer for doing this to me 
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Apr 15, 2020 13:23
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Even if you just want to wreck labour, trying to get as many members mad as hell at the leadership over the report is probably the best thing you could do to achieve that.
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Apr 15, 2020 13:23
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Cerebral Bore posted:This report gives a pretty good opportunity to hit the Labour right where it hurts, and if Starmer fucks up the response, as he looks likely to do, it gives an opportunity to kneecap any lurch to the right he might be planning or maybe even force him out and get someone with a spine into the leader's chair. So it seems like a bad tactical choice to quit Labour at least until we see how this whole thing shakes out. how? i mean i broadly agree but i dont think there is any kind of process to do this?
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Apr 15, 2020 13:27
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OwlFancier posted:Even if you just want to wreck labour, trying to get as many members mad as hell at the leadership over the report is probably the best thing you could do to achieve that. i'm so confused, i'm supposed to stay in labour to change things from the inside but arguing against the leadership is wrecking. i cant quit because that's what 'they' want. i cant disagree or complain because that's wrecking. what are my actual options here?
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Apr 15, 2020 13:28
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If you want people to get mad and quit to delegitizime the party while being radicalized left to join other groups, you want them mad at the report. If you want people to get mad and work to retake control of the party, you want them mad at the report. Being mad at the report is the desired outcome for basically anyone who isn't one of the twats in charge at the moment, I am suggesting that whatever your long term goal, your immediate goal is pretty similar, you want people who are currently in the party, to be talking to other people in the party and delegitimizing the leadership.
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Apr 15, 2020 13:31
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OwlFancier posted:I can't think of any sort of direct action or threat of action with that effect in the UK, however. Which I could either ascribe to the inherent cowardice of the british race or, like, societal conditions and that. And I'm probably gonna go with the latter. What you need is something indirect enough that the press can't spin it as violent extremism, but is sufficient to shift the public discourse. Unfortunately what you tend to get is trot groups and talking shops, but some of those groups linked upthread seem interesting.
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Apr 15, 2020 13:33
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Rustybear posted:They'll just run a Democratic Party style 'vote for us or get Boris' wedge, it's all they know. Or they'll abandon the left in favour of courting legitimately concerned former UKIP voters or some such. What can I say, I'm an optimist outside of my own head.  I'm just trying to imagine what their game plan is and what the political lay of the land will be in 5 years time. Assuming the Labour right take the path of least resistance, is it easier to try and court the Labour left, or try to win over UKIP voters? Try to tap into that enormous well of people who didn't turn out to vote (32.7%)? And what's the Conservative voter base going to look like when the dust settles from Covid-19? I can't imagine any outcome of the Covid-19 pandemic & full speed ahead Brexit being anything other than economic depression for the country, so how will that frame everything as a backdrop? These are all factors for the next GE and we haven't even touched on what could still happen in this hell-year of 2020 and beyond. ... Nah, more likely they'll do just what you said; a Democratic Party style ultimatum supported by Guardian wankers like Jonathan Freedland begging the left to "hold their nose and vote Starmer" while oblivious to the hypocrisy that they refused to do just that when it was Corbyn's turn, lose, and then blame the left for the outcome. Just like that bicycle meme.
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Apr 15, 2020 13:33
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Communist Thoughts posted:how? i mean i broadly agree but i dont think there is any kind of process to do this? There are party conferences. It is true that those don't have the power they used to, but they are still places a suitably angry membership can make things difficult for the leadership. There also lots of positions of local power, either in the party or in local government, which are chosen by Labour members and which the Labour right definitely do not want us to have.
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Apr 15, 2020 13:34
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I just quit. Despite Owly’s protestations otherwise, electoral politics is in my opinion an absolute dead end. Look at basically every industrialised nation. It’s a choice between a knee capped centre left or some turbocapitalist/fash, with the latter always winning. Capitalism has reached a stage of entrenched power within its own framework that means a vaguer left wing government will never be allowed to be elected again. Why would it? Supporting Labour is throwing good money after bad. Sure, Starmer might get in but only if he promises to be on his best behaviour and doesn’t deviate or do anything too left wing. We have global warming right round the corner. It’s going to cause some form of societal collapse or a slip into fascism. Labour doesn’t figure in either of these scenarios. The only hope is for people o actually do politics outside of electoralism and as long as normal people see the Labour Party as the main way to do that we’re hosed. They’re literally pointless at this point.
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Apr 15, 2020 13:36
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The IMF is expecting a global recession this year as well so there's absolutely no way anyone can legislate their way out of it so building power outside of parliament is the only way things are going to turn in the favour of the working class.
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Apr 15, 2020 13:42
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Guavanaut posted:Economically targeted bombing in the Docklands did force the British to the negotiating table and led to the Belfast Agreement, but yeah I don't think it was very popular with the public. Action like this and less violent action works for single issues. It does now work well for promoting things like a political agenda. Just see how well RISE did in the supposedly more left wing Scotland, i'm pretty sure not even all their family members voted for them.
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Apr 15, 2020 13:48
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Jakabite posted:I just quit. Despite Owly’s protestations otherwise, electoral politics is in my opinion an absolute dead end. Look at basically every industrialised nation. It’s a choice between a knee capped centre left or some turbocapitalist/fash, with the latter always winning. Capitalism has reached a stage of entrenched power within its own framework that means a vaguer left wing government will never be allowed to be elected again. Why would it? Supporting Labour is throwing good money after bad. Sure, Starmer might get in but only if he promises to be on his best behaviour and doesn’t deviate or do anything too left wing. If Electoral politics is a dead end then so is every other route.
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Apr 15, 2020 13:49
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quote:Below is the full statement released today by the GMB Labour Party staff branch. I wonder what context we're missing that makes it OK to make fun of one of your colleagues for crying in a toilet and then try to sic the media on her? Maybe if the next message was "can you imagine if we were actually like that lol? I'll go see if she's ok and get her a cup of tea" it would be just about not horrible? with regards to the "private conversations" thing, is anything you send over corporate email actually private? I've always assumed they have access to stuff that's going through their systems from company email addresses/computers/phones like I'm wary of sending anything personal or remotely dodgy (e.g. if I wanted to give someone a free licence code and don't really want to ask permission) via my actual work email address, let alone my entire WhatsApp history where I'm conspiring against my boss
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Apr 15, 2020 13:50
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If all the transcripts came from one of the members of the chat emailing it to their work account then they've got no grounds.
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Apr 15, 2020 13:55
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Dead Goon posted:I worked Quality Assurance in the fresh produce industry for 11 years - the machine operative really does just stop the machine and change the packaging when switching between supermarkets. A friend's father was some sort of factory inspector and he went to a factory that did washing powder. He said all the different brands were filled by powder coming down the same pipe and then right at the end of the process, there was about a spoonful of a different powder added to to box for each brand and that was the only difference. (Now, obviously I appreciate that a spoonful of something can make a difference with, say, poisons, but not, I believe, in the case of washing powder - except that eating washing powder can be poisonous but that is a different argument.)
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Apr 15, 2020 13:59
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It's just the archetypal British response that revealing that an institution doesn't work is much worse than the fact it doesnt work. UK society explicitly runs on kayfabe rather than just implicitly like everyone else
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Apr 15, 2020 14:00
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namesake posted:If all the transcripts came from one of the members of the chat emailing it to their work account then they've got no grounds. That's... not strictly true. If all of the messages were sent over LP wifi then it's probably okay, but your employee has no legal right to read private communications you send on a personal or other corporate network no matter how they obtain them. Now if it went to trial they could probably argue that the only conversations they looked at were regarding work, and were in group chats set up to facilitate that work, and would probably prevail, but it's definitely not something that the law allows for.
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Apr 15, 2020 14:05
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Aramoro posted:If Electoral politics is a dead end then so is every other route. Huge lol. Yes, because it’s that great shining beacon of electoralism that’s been delivering us good left wing governance for the last 200 years. Grow up, politics is more than a loving voting booth.
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Apr 15, 2020 14:14
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Hey People. My mothers friend with dementia just got moved into a care home and I'm trying to sort out a mobile for her. I ordered one of those 'designed for the elderly phones' which has just arrived, but I find it only takes a 2G SIM. I'm just trying to get a SIM only PAYG for her. Unfortunately all the mobile phone sellers support centres are closed for obvious reasons so I can't ask them. Can someone with more tech expertise tell me whether a 3G/4G SIM will work on these, any recommendations would also be helpful. Edit: Phone is a Denver GSP-110MK2.
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Apr 15, 2020 14:15
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Jaeluni Asjil posted:A friend's father was some sort of factory inspector and he went to a factory that did washing powder. He said all the different brands were filled by powder coming down the same pipe and then right at the end of the process, there was about a spoonful of a different powder added to to box for each brand and that was the only difference. This is exactly why I think brand based boycotts are more for show than for real effect. If, say, that washing powder factory was dumping surfactant into the river and harming wildlife, which brand do you boycott? What tends to happen is the most popular (or second most popular) is picked, people switch brands in protest, a noncommittal response is made, and everyone forgets it. I remember in the early 2000s the popular thing was to boycott Esso. I can't even remember what they were doing, but I assume standard oil company poo poo like rubbing linseed oil into the school cormorant, but everyone hopped onto the Esso Days thing. Now if they did that by taking public transport on those days, or buying less plastic crap, or whatever then fine, that's good. But from observation what they actually did was carry on as normal and fill up at BP or Texaco instead. Deptfordx posted:Hey People. My mothers friend with dementia just got moved into a care home and I'm trying to sort out a mobile for her. I ordered one of those 'designed for the elderly phones' which has just arrived, but I find it only takes a 2G SIM. Assuming that both the phone and card are the same version of SIM (e.g. for operating voltage), which is almost certainly the case if you're putting a modern SIM in a modern phone and not an 80s/90s one.
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Apr 15, 2020 14:18
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Pretty sure that the sim will work with whatever signal it can get hold of.
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Apr 15, 2020 14:19
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Jaeluni Asjil posted:A friend's father was some sort of factory inspector and he went to a factory that did washing powder. He said all the different brands were filled by powder coming down the same pipe and then right at the end of the process, there was about a spoonful of a different powder added to to box for each brand and that was the only difference. All washing powder is basically one ingredient (a surfactant with a scary name I can't remember off the top of my head) with a load of filler to make it easier to measure and to soften the water, with a few added ingredients and some perfume. Those added ingredients can actually make a pretty big difference (for example some bond weakly to common dyes, to stop colours from running/bleaching, some act as bridges between non-oil-based dirts and the surfactant to make stuff like mud and blood wash out more easily, and the enzymes in biological powders break down longer hydrocarbons like oil and tar into something the surfactant can pull out of the cloth). So yeah, your friend's dad is right, the only difference is that spoonful, but it can actually do quite a lot. Source: My dad worked in a laundry for a few years and this was a common argument between him and my mum whenever my mum bought the cheap non-bio powder and it wouldn't get his overalls clean when he was working as a diesel fitter.
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Apr 15, 2020 14:21
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Tsietisin posted:Pretty sure that the sim will work with whatever signal it can get hold of. If the phone radio is GSM/2.5G only this is going to be a problem in the next few years - none of the providers have started yet, but all are planning to go to 3G-minimum radio networks as the older kit ages out. This is likely to be delayed for a while because there's a *shitload* of kit, from bus shelter matrix displays to emergency locator beacons, that are GSM-only, but it's something that will happen eventually.
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Apr 15, 2020 14:26
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Guavanaut posted:
Yeah it's a 2015 model when I look at it, I literally just grabbed the one Amazon recommended. So it sounds like I just order any one that still supports 2G , which looks like all the major networks do except Three
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Apr 15, 2020 14:27
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goddamnedtwisto posted:If the phone radio is GSM/2.5G only this is going to be a problem in the next few years - none of the providers have started yet, but all are planning to go to 3G-minimum radio networks as the older kit ages out. This is likely to be delayed for a while because there's a *shitload* of kit, from bus shelter matrix displays to emergency locator beacons, that are GSM-only, but it's something that will happen eventually. Unfortunately, but realistically. I don't think her phone becoming unusable a few years down the line is going to be a problem.
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Apr 15, 2020 14:28
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Deptfordx posted:Hey People. My mothers friend with dementia just got moved into a care home and I'm trying to sort out a mobile for her. I ordered one of those 'designed for the elderly phones' which has just arrived, but I find it only takes a 2G SIM. Housemate works for Vodafone and he says it should work fine with SIMs they sell, he also recommends TalkMobile (who piggyback on Vodafone's network) as they do unlimited talk/texts on rolling 30 day contracts for around a fiver a month.
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Apr 15, 2020 14:29
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Jaeluni Asjil posted:A friend's father was some sort of factory inspector and he went to a factory that did washing powder. He said all the different brands were filled by powder coming down the same pipe and then right at the end of the process, there was about a spoonful of a different powder added to to box for each brand and that was the only difference. Depends entirely on what is in the spoonful, small amounts of an extra additive can certainly make a chemical difference in how well the powder works. Whether that is actually the case, or it is cheaper to pay more for ads saving your powder works better when it doesn't do anything difference in practice, is a different matter.
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Apr 15, 2020 14:30
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The number 1 reason why austerity is dead as a political project - that is, no party, not even the Tories, will actively promote it as a solution now, and that all parties agree (in word at least) that for instance the NHS needs to be funded more - is that Corbyn was leader of the Labour party. This might just seem like a rhetorical difference but it fundamentally limits what the Tories can do to destroy this country. Electoral politics did that. If Corbyn was elected before, there's no reason why it would be impossible for another leftist leader to win in the future, even if it didn't happen this time. And don't forget the demographics: every year more of them die and more of us age into adulthood. And of course, there's a lot more to the party than the leadership, and the only way Starmer could get elected was promising to implement almost the entire Corbyn agenda. God knows it's plenty poo poo, but electoralism is how stuff gets done in this country. Or you can lie back, smug that you disapprove of everything, waiting for a revolution that will never happen (and you can ask the Arab Spring countries about how well it went when it did).
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Apr 15, 2020 14:30
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* tories proceed to do austerity for next 10 years * 
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