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Thank you to the people who responded to me. Mine was a genuine question of hey what do I actually do, because I have no idea. I do not know where to start with any of this. Before I at least knew I as voting for someone who alignd with me on a lot of things, now it is a case of "Ok where do we go next now that they are no longer there". I really appreciate it. Also I do not think people who are leaving are smug. It seems weird to characterise depression and despondency and alienation from groups that have attacked you as being smug. I see it a lot also against those in the US who cannot vote a certain way. Smugness is what you see from Priti Patel or Matt Hancock or Boris Johnson.
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Apr 15, 2020 14:37
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"We know austerity doesn't work but the pandemic cost the economy so much and we need to tighten our belts while we pay off the credit card".
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Apr 15, 2020 14:38
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Comrade Fakename posted:And don't forget the demographics: every year more of them die and more of us age into adulthood.
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Apr 15, 2020 14:48
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Yeah, all sorted on the SIM front. Thanks for that Talkmobile recommendation. £5 unlimited talktime, on a rolling contract is ideal. Order placed and it'll be with us in a few days. Cheers!
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Apr 15, 2020 14:48
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XMNN posted:with regards to the "private conversations" thing, is anything you send over corporate email actually private? I've always assumed they have access to stuff that's going through their systems from company email addresses/computers/phones Yeah you should always assume they are not private and can be monitored by your boss or requested via GDPR. Also, iirc, SARs (subject access requests) can sometimes legitimately involve transmissions between employees even on their own personal emails or chat rooms or whatever, so although it’s unlikely to ever come up (how would anyone know you held the data?), you should be wary about bitching about clients or whatever in text form too
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Apr 15, 2020 14:49
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Prism Mirror Lens posted:Yeah you should always assume they are not private and can be monitored by your boss or requested via GDPR. Also, iirc, SARs (subject access requests) can sometimes legitimately involve transmissions between employees even on their own personal emails or chat rooms or whatever, so although it’s unlikely to ever come up (how would anyone know you held the data?), you should be wary about bitching about clients or whatever in text form too The golden rule I've always used is "never say anything about a customer that you wouldn't want to have to read out in court", regardless of the method used.
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Apr 15, 2020 14:53
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Jakabite posted:Huge lol. Yes, because it’s that great shining beacon of electoralism that’s been delivering us good left wing governance for the last 200 years. Grow up, politics is more than a loving voting booth. By all mean crack on with what ever it is you want to do but if you want to change actual laws that govern the country you need to engage with electoral politics. Because non-electoral politics has been delivering real left policies just fine has it?
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Apr 15, 2020 14:55
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There's one very good reason a Corbyn won't happen again and it's that he only happened last time because a load of idiots in the PLP who didn't actually want him to win nominated him "to broaden the debate". They'll remember what happens when you do that now.
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Apr 15, 2020 15:01
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Aramoro posted:By all mean crack on with what ever it is you want to do but if you want to change actual laws that govern the country you need to engage with electoral politics. Because non-electoral politics has been delivering real left policies just fine has it? That does take a long sustained push over years though, and a lot of work building the group up. That's still engaging with politics but more in terms of influencing the people already at the top, rather than changing the people at the top, so it takes longer.
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Apr 15, 2020 15:04
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Aramoro posted:By all mean crack on with what ever it is you want to do but if you want to change actual laws that govern the country you need to engage with electoral politics. Because non-electoral politics has been delivering real left policies just fine has it? No, it hasn't, but it has a chance to if enough people get behind it and social conditions prevail and all the other random factors needed for social change line up. Electoral politics literally hasn't got that chance. I'd maybe agree if global warming wasn't going to cause billions of deaths in the next 50 years, but we don't have time for softer flavours of capitalism even under a Labour government. It's revolution or death, so I'd suggest getting behind it.
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Apr 15, 2020 15:07
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Pre- Covid 19: "There is no magic money tree." During Covid 19: "We have found the magic money tree." Post- Covid 19: "We have hosed the magic money tree to death. There really is no magic money tree now."
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Apr 15, 2020 15:14
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Dabir posted:There's one very good reason a Corbyn won't happen again and it's that he only happened last time because a load of idiots in the PLP who didn't actually want him to win nominated him "to broaden the debate". They'll remember what happens when you do that now. There are more pro-socialism Labour MPs in the PLP now than there were in 2015, largely thanks to Corbyn. That's how RLB ended up on the leadership ballot this time. Look up the Socialist Campaign Group of Labour MPs
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Apr 15, 2020 15:23
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I think directing energy more locally might have more legs than just smashing your brain against a computer for 5 years in the hopes that people might like Keir Starmer more than Boris Johnson. Manchester's devolved powers, what's happening in Preston, the inches of progress made with Scottish independence - all are still bound up in London politics, but it is a progression. Average person won't have even heard of this Labour report, but they'll know if the bins aren't collected or they can't afford to eat. I work a lot with charities so feel I'm doing my bit and squeeze in as much politics as is dared within the sector. I know it's only trying to slow down symptoms of a larger illness, and a change needs to happen, but I'm struggling with the idea that electoralism is the way to go just because we don't have enough loving time to be fannying about with what boils down to a popularity contest.
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Apr 15, 2020 15:24
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sassassin posted:"We know austerity doesn't work but the pandemic cost the economy so much and we need to tighten our belts while we pay off the credit card". This is definitely coming. They're drip feeding it in the coverage every day - "we're going to be paying for this for a generation". The government we have definitely won't want people to get the idea in their heads that life can be easier, anyway
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Apr 15, 2020 15:25
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Guavanaut posted:Pressure groups seem to do a good job influencing laws from outside, as in the good work done by LGBT and BAME groups over decades (and the less good work done by corporations, TERFs, and angry letter writing churches). Single issue groups do a good job of changing the public mind about things which feeds into electoral politics as you say. It's the calculus the SNP are doing just now, to support TERFS or Trans Rights, not because of some objective good but because someone more or less people might vote for them. We got gay marriage because David Cameron thought it was good for his polling. No matter what you have to engage with the democratic machine because that's the part that actually does things.
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Apr 15, 2020 15:33
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Aramoro posted:Single issue groups do a good job of changing the public mind about things which feeds into electoral politics as you say. It's the calculus the SNP are doing just now, to support TERFS or Trans Rights, not because of some objective good but because someone more or less people might vote for them. We got gay marriage because David Cameron thought it was good for his polling. No matter what you have to engage with the democratic machine because that's the part that actually does things. But it will never, ever, ever, ever end the capitalist system. And that is essential for human survival in any decent way. It's as simple as that.
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Apr 15, 2020 15:40
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justcola posted:I think directing energy more locally might have more legs than just smashing your brain against a computer for 5 years in the hopes that people might like Keir Starmer more than Boris Johnson. Devolution of powers is also a handy way for the right wing to dump a load of extra responsibilities on the devolved area without actually giving them the money or power to do anything. Wales, Scotland and (to a much lesser extent, when the mayor has a red rosette) London show this all too well, and every local council in the country catches a load of poo poo when they have to cut local services to the bone because of central government funding cuts. Hell, the local council cuts - with knock-on effects on everything from social care to THE BINS - are a big part of the reason the Tories were catching up in the Midlands and North of England, Brexit was just the straw that broke the camel's back.
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Apr 15, 2020 15:41
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goddamnedtwisto posted:The golden rule I've always used is "never say anything about a customer that you wouldn't want to have to read out in court", regardless of the method used. unfortunately I'm actually very careful and only ever bitch about them verbally, long after I've put the phone down and when I'm really pretty sure about who's in earshot, and nobody's particularly likely to sue me for impugning their ability to read  I think people who write bad stuff about customers in emails to their coworkers are really pretty stupid, mostly because other people aren't very careful about checking who's copied in or looking down the email trail to check there's nothing untoward in there
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Apr 15, 2020 15:42
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761 dead in hospitals in England, which I think is going to be free of any weekend effect by now? sort of a faint glimmer of good news if it's sustained for a few days? sounds like care homes are a living nightmare though in a completely anecdotal barometer of how bad the situation in hospitals is, my dad hasn't actually been asked to go in to help out yet, which is a bit odd. I feel like if they were really hurting for staff he would be one of the first people called back as he's a very recently retired anaesthetist and his colleagues specifically reached out to him. Apparently they're nearing a 100 COVID deaths but I don't know if that's a lot relative to the capacity of the hospital.
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Apr 15, 2020 15:53
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Aramoro posted:Single issue groups do a good job of changing the public mind about things which feeds into electoral politics as you say. It's the calculus the SNP are doing just now, to support TERFS or Trans Rights, not because of some objective good but because someone more or less people might vote for them. We got gay marriage because David Cameron thought it was good for his polling. No matter what you have to engage with the democratic machine because that's the part that actually does things. And also the status of that debate, did SWAP just give up after broadband internet firehosed porn into everyone's bedroom, or did they go down the SWERF to TERF pipeline.
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Apr 15, 2020 15:53
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Jakabite posted:But it will never, ever, ever, ever end the capitalist system. And that is essential for human survival in any decent way. It's as simple as that. What will?
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Apr 15, 2020 15:55
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Aramoro posted:What will? In the orthodox Marxist view, a shift in technology and productive capacity that makes capitalism unsustainable.
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Apr 15, 2020 15:59
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Aramoro posted:What will? the decline in the rate of profit will eventually make 'for profit' economic production impossible. People still need bread and shelter however; the resulting conflict gives rise to a new political compact of some form. Hasn't happened yet obviously but the decline in the rate of profit is an observable effect.
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Apr 15, 2020 16:04
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goddamnedtwisto posted:Devolution of powers is also a handy way for the right wing to dump a load of extra responsibilities on the devolved area without actually giving them the money or power to do anything. Wales, Scotland and (to a much lesser extent, when the mayor has a red rosette) London show this all too well, and every local council in the country catches a load of poo poo when they have to cut local services to the bone because of central government funding cuts. Hell, the local council cuts - with knock-on effects on everything from social care to THE BINS - are a big part of the reason the Tories were catching up in the Midlands and North of England, Brexit was just the straw that broke the camel's back. Oh, absolutely, just enough rope and all that. But it lays the groundwork for people to be more engaged and be able to do something - I think much of the reasons for Brexit was such heavy investment and noise about London rather than say, Barnsley or wherever they'd send a guardian reporter in 2017. Aramoro posted:What will? It's probably not Keir Starmer
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Apr 15, 2020 16:06
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Rustybear posted:the decline in the rate of profit will eventually make 'for profit' economic production impossible. That engine still has a lot of life in it yet, even then I don't see us moving away from a strictly democratic system, though perhaps a proportionally elected one.
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Apr 15, 2020 16:06
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XMNN posted:761 dead in hospitals in England, which I think is going to be free of any weekend effect by now? think it all depends on where you are. my sister's hospital had body bags run out but other than that they've not really encountered problems afaik and they don't hjave a massive number of covid patients
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Apr 15, 2020 16:07
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Aramoro posted:If Electoral politics is a dead end then so is every other route. I think looking back Rise's main problem was that it was an insular cliquey thing for a handful of glasgow activists who didn't do enough outreach on the ground, thinking the force of their 2014 presence and personalities would carry them through (boyd, shafi, etc). That and the fact that even JFK would have been hard pressed to win elections against the SNP in the aftermath of the indyref. Anyway, the important question I'd like to offer Scottish voters is this- does Scottish independence count as an extra-electoral political movement? Answers on a postcard.
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Apr 15, 2020 16:08
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seems unite did the sensible thing and take a poll of how to respond to the labour report leak lol
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Apr 15, 2020 16:10
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Coohoolin posted:Anyway, the important question I'd like to offer Scottish voters is this- does Scottish independence count as an extra-electoral political movement? Answers on a postcard. I'd say no, the Scottish Independence movement specifically engaged with electoral politics to achieve their aims.
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Apr 15, 2020 16:12
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Also just as a quick follow up anyone thinking there's no ground between 'unconditional support for kier starmer now' and 'revolution or die trying' needs to get a grip. even the actual men in black balaclavas proceeded by armalite AND ballot box. 'Electoralism' is just a jargony way of saying you need to convince a plurality of people that your policy positions are a good idea and you could implement them sensibly. You're going to have to do a lot more explaining about what your exact plan is if you're not for that general concept.
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Apr 15, 2020 16:12
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Austerity will absolutely make a comeback as a political idea, all the rightwingers need to do is point at the debt to GDP ratio which will explode over the next year and start saying that no matter how good, well deserving or possibly even essential a service is, that it's just not feasible to keep it going under current conditions and it needs to be reduced or the private sector needs to bear some of the costs and so cuts and privatisation takes place (although there's really little left to cut or privatise). Austerity won as an idea last time because the main parties were basically united on it being necessary (oops, plus la change) and the lack of coherence around alternatives except for maintaining government spending and when faced with 'debt or austerity' the public sucked it up and accepted austerity as necessary. Properly combatting it now will require a stronger and radical alternative solution - I think the two core ones which will appear is a massive debt jubilee which wipes out the public and the publics debt and most financial institutions along with it or transference of operations into workers hands so that it's no longer under the same restrictions as a government service but hasn't just been privatised either.
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Apr 15, 2020 16:15
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I kinda wonder if I could get a job as a grave digger. I think that would be interesting and socially useful right now.
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Apr 15, 2020 16:17
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"The revolution is coming any day now" says increasingly nervous man for the ten millionth time in 300 years. Literally just three years ago we came within touching distance of a truly socialist-led government. If the election had taken place a week later, after Grenfell, we could have had an outright Labour majority. Things have gone badly recently, we've suffered some major losses. But to act like achieving real change electorally is impossible is just a bizarre statement. And as for demographics, under-40s are currently more left-wing then at any point in the country's history. And there's no indication that people are aging into the right-wing. Historically, people haven't been getting more right-wing as they get older, they turn more right as they get richer. Used to be that neo-liberalism worked to the degree that getting older and getting richer were largely linked. Does anyone think that's true now?
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Apr 15, 2020 16:18
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Rustybear posted:Also just as a quick follow up anyone thinking there's no ground between 'unconditional support for kier starmer now' and 'revolution or die trying' needs to get a grip. even the actual men in black balaclavas proceeded by armalite AND ballot box. I don't think anyone ITT is at either extreme, it's interesting hearing different points of view when usually everyone is quite locked in. And I see 'electoralism' about...elections? Sure, some policy wonk may have been the one to pull a lever eventually, but they wouldn't have gotten there without years of campaigning by LGBT groups, women, minorities, anyone really. You can leave the party and still vote for Labour or follow up on anything else that matters to you - I just think the report just brings into focus how much work there is to do and is Labour the best place to put that energy?
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Apr 15, 2020 16:23
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Aramoro posted:That engine still has a lot of life in it yet, even then I don't see us moving away from a strictly democratic system, though perhaps a proportionally elected one. oh sure high finance has been finding new and ever more wonderful ways to make money now that just owning a factory/some arable land doesn't cut it anymore; the underlying principle remains the same tho. also there's nothing that says this theoretical transition cant be worked out in a democratic fashion.
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Apr 15, 2020 16:23
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justcola posted:Sure, some policy wonk may have been the one to pull a lever eventually, but they wouldn't have gotten there without years of campaigning by LGBT groups, women, minorities, anyone really. You can leave the party and still vote for Labour or follow up on anything else that matters to you - I just think the report just brings into focus how much work there is to do and is Labour the best place to put that energy? pretty much agree entirely.
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Apr 15, 2020 16:29
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I read in a couple of places that Unite had a poll about response to 'that' report. I'm in Unite and I've been through my emails for the past few days and haven't had any poll about it. Anyone here in Unite and had the poll? Ed: Just found out it was Labour staffers represented by Unite, not Unite membership. Jaeluni Asjil fucked around with this message at 16:45 on Apr 15, 2020 |
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Apr 15, 2020 16:36
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Comrade Fakename posted:"The revolution is coming any day now" says increasingly nervous man for the ten millionth time in 300 years. Yeah and all those engaged left wing yoof aren't going to loving vote, because all they can see is two brands of the same old shite. The next five years under Starmer are likely to see a complete loss of faith in the Labour party as an actual vehicle of change, in much the same way as the democractic party over in the US is going to hand Trump a second term on a silver platter. See already the utter lack of firebrand post-Corbyn leadership candidates and that 'No vote' beat Starmer. There was that report about the declining lack of faith in democracy over the past 20 years in western countries a couple of months back. Look at the malaise graph on page 12 and the massive jump in US and UK disgruntlement. https://www.bennettinstitute.cam.ac.uk/media/uploads/files/DemocracyReport2020.pdf  2025 election: Does Stormzy endorse Starmer? Like gently caress he does.
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Apr 15, 2020 16:36
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Rustybear posted:
Yeah it is rather questionable, given the timing and material details, that Cuban intervention in Angola really did have the kind of definitive effect of ending apartheid that is commonly claimed here. But what is clear is that, for whatever effect it did have, the intervention was on the scale of at least hundreds of millions or more in wages, hardware, wages and personnel. And half a million deaths is a very low-ball estimate of total casualties. Who specifically, is going to be donating support on that scale, and why do you trust them?
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Apr 15, 2020 16:43
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Pistol_Pete posted:It can't be emphasised enough that the Labour right absolutely want left-wing members to be cancelling their memberships: every leftie who storms off makes the Labour right that little bit more powerful within the party. The future is unknowable, but the way to bet is that 1/3 of the British population, more or less, will continue to vote Labour regardless of anything in the news unless the party somehow loses the ability to contest seats or 20%+ of the population becomes unemployed and suddenly super interested in socialism, or something of that magnitude. Since this is the case, the Labour Party is the only game in town. It’s the party, irrelevance, or the kind of violent protest that only ends in being slapped down by the state because there is no mass of people ready to rise up and overthrow it if you can just light the spark, Tunisia style.
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Apr 15, 2020 16:50
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