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V. Illych L. posted:the central bank is a Bad Instrument for this sort of stimulus precisely it's inherently biassed in favour of the rich In the absence of politics what the US fed is doing is way preferable to doing nothing.
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Apr 15, 2020 15:40
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i mean what they've done is basically just say that there will be no risk for private companies over a certain size which seems bad???
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Apr 15, 2020 15:45
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The Spreads Are Back In Town!!quote:Italian debt sinks after ‘corona bond’ plan falters Markets are starting to correctly price in the amount that the Dutch and Germans are being heartless cunts.
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Apr 15, 2020 15:46
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V. Illych L. posted:i mean what they've done is basically just say that there will be no risk for private companies over a certain size which seems bad??? They're also sending everyone* a cheque with Trumps name on it a few months out from a presidential election. *many exceptions apply Junior G-man posted:Markets are starting to correctly price in the amount that the Dutch and Germans are being heartless cunts. Reading between the lines that means investors had expected the Dutch and German governments to be less cunty than they actually are.
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Apr 15, 2020 16:14
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Lol they are forcing the ECB hand. "Benign borrowing conditions" my loving rear end.
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Apr 15, 2020 16:55
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At least the EU Parliament understands that this poo poo is not nearly enough to deal with the crisis. Now if only the European Council would follow suit. https://www.euractiv.com/section/economy-jobs/news/eu-parliaments-big-four-back-recovery-bonds-to-tackle-covid-19-crisis/
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Apr 15, 2020 17:32
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Let's cut govt spending to stymie the recession. Because cutting services will mean we have more GDP to pay the debts with !!!!! *Goku thing but with austrirty*
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Apr 15, 2020 18:28
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the US Congress is yeeting $2 trillion at the American economy in addition to whatever the Fed is doing. In that context it seems extra surprising to me that the dollar has gained in value against the Pound and Euro since the crisis began, not that I ever actually understand high end macro poo poo. I'm sure everyone here agrees that the last decade has exposed some serious flaws in the the EU. But does anyone here think there have been serious political efforts to identify and fix those issues? In the last five years at least it feels like the efforts to evolve the nature of the EU have been moribund. Dragged down by the need for consensus and nationalist politics its hard to imagine serious changes being implemented within the bounds of the current system. Just looking at the recent conversation here on why the EU only managed to agree on a measly €500 billion in stimulus, it seems like everyone agrees the inadequacy was due in large part to disagreements between national level governments. In terms of how to fix this problem for future crises, one obvious solution would be to actually empower a supranational EU parliament with real decision making power independent of national governments. This would be especially effective if representatives were selected at-large, so that they would be beholden to European wide voters rather than regional blocs. I know that's a rather fantastical idea right now, but is there any actual effort to address these kinds of EU issues? Or do you all just imagine the future of the EU as just like it is now, but with more austerity and anti-immigrant hysteria?
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Apr 15, 2020 19:00
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the problem as i see it is that the EU constitutionally has to see things through a lens in which what we're seeing now isn't possible. it's complicated and remote enough that people don't perceive EU officials as representing them, and is in a really bizarre situation where it's extremely powerful in some ways but that power is basically constrictive. the constitutional issues mean that it only really sees elite engagement, meaning that the only people whose interests really are represented are the ones with really high-performing machines, i.e. elites, and it makes for an extremely handy boogeyman for all national governments which are seen as more legitimate somehow so when a crisis emerges the EU breaks down due to the need for consensus and lack of legitimacy, which further erodes that legitimacy in a vicious circle (the whole Thing of the EU is supposed to be good governance and, well, it's not doing a good job of governing) basically the EU can only constrict action, it has a hell of a time actually doing anything. it's a case in point of the weakness of a constant-esque commitment to negative liberty as a mode of governance
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Apr 15, 2020 19:15
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re attempts to fix this the only one i'm aware of is varoufakis' party, diem25. the EU tries to generate elite consensus as its standard mode of operation, which it's doubling down on as far as i can tell
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Apr 15, 2020 19:18
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I'm excited for diem25, I hope they win and fix Greece! Speaking of Greece, is the centrist government in power losing popularity yet?
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Apr 15, 2020 19:34
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Squalid posted:the US Congress is yeeting $2 trillion at the American economy in addition to whatever the Fed is doing. In that context it seems extra surprising to me that the dollar has gained in value against the Pound and Euro since the crisis began, not that I ever actually understand high end macro poo poo. That's because the demand for currency matters just as much as the supply of currency. The Fed's crazy extreme measures have convinced money that they will save financial markets in a way that no other western central bank would. So all that money is flowing into dollars even faster than the Fed is printing them out. There's also other weird financial things going on in the background. But all those other arcane financial actions also need more dollars, so money is flowing into dollars again from other currencies.
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Apr 15, 2020 19:51
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V. Illych L. posted:re attempts to fix this the only one i'm aware of is varoufakis' party, diem25. the EU tries to generate elite consensus as its standard mode of operation, which it's doubling down on as far as i can tell what is diem25 proposing? I would argue the EU has struggled to deal with economic and regional crises precisely because it is failing to generate elite consensus. Like looking at financial news sources it seems like literally all of the expert economists and big investing firms are shaking their heads at the pittance EU governments are spending on stimulus. The elite know the EU is failing to respond sufficiently, but the EU is crippled by a prisoner's dilemma: national leaders in places like the Netherlands see their interests as contrary to those of the EU as a whole, and are more than willing to gently caress everyone else in exchange for some marginal benefit to themselves. There's no theoretical reason the elite should not be able to respond to the crisis, as demonstrated by the way the leadership of China and the USA have handled these issues.
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Apr 15, 2020 20:00
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golden bubble posted:That's because the demand for currency matters just as much as the supply of currency. The Fed's crazy extreme measures have convinced money that they will save financial markets in a way that no other western central bank would. So all that money is flowing into dollars even faster than the Fed is printing them out. There's also other weird financial things going on in the background. But all those other arcane financial actions also need more dollars, so money is flowing into dollars again from other currencies.
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Apr 15, 2020 20:20
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Squalid posted:Just looking at the recent conversation here on why the EU only managed to agree on a measly €500 billion in stimulus, it seems like everyone agrees the inadequacy was due in large part to disagreements between national level governments. In terms of how to fix this problem for future crises, one obvious solution would be to actually empower a supranational EU parliament with real decision making power independent of national governments. This would be especially effective if representatives were selected at-large, so that they would be beholden to European wide voters rather than regional blocs. The problem is the EU is designed to be run by national governments and can't act without them. It's like if all US states had veto powers over the budget and foreign policy while the Senate were actually members of state governments that just met up once in a while and state governments appoint members of the federal cabinet and nominate the president of US. It's designed to keep as much sovereignty as possible on a national level and make the EU accountable to national governments as opposed to voters Any attempt to reform it died with the Constitutional Treaty. The Lisbon Tteaty patched things up but no one has an appetite for more defeats by referenda. It's chaotic, corrosive and frankly embarrassing every time. Crisis is much more likely to dissolve the EU than motivate reform.
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Apr 15, 2020 20:34
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i mean yeah, if you can't mobilise elite consensus it's a big problem when that's the only way of functioning
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Apr 15, 2020 21:45
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Squalid posted:I'm sure everyone here agrees that the last decade has exposed some serious flaws in the the EU. But does anyone here think there have been serious political efforts to identify and fix those issues? In the last five years at least it feels like the efforts to evolve the nature of the EU have been moribund. I blame Germany. Every time there's a proposal to reform some part of the EU, Merkel said nein. And what we're seeing is that every time there's a crisis, the EU countries go deeper in selfishness and assholery. There is zero desire to band together to overcome the challenges, it's just more FYGM. And it's not just at the political levels, Europeans are getting more racist against each others as a result. Instead of creating a paneuropean identity, the EU, by its incompetence and egotism, reinforcing centrifugal nationalism. Squalid posted:I know that's a rather fantastical idea right now, but is there any actual effort to address these kinds of EU issues? The only way to address EU issues is by quitting it and creating a new EU with blackjack and hookers. The first chapter of the NEU's acquis communautaire should be guillotining any and every pro-austerity ideologue.
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Apr 15, 2020 23:03
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Cat Mattress posted:The only way to address EU issues is by quitting it and creating a new EU with blackjack and hookers. this is it, a mass exit and the establishment of a new union
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Apr 16, 2020 01:22
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Doctor Jeep posted:this is it, a mass exit and the establishment of a new union
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Apr 16, 2020 01:45
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Cat Mattress posted:I blame Germany. Every time there's a proposal to reform some part of the EU, Merkel said nein. It's not particular to Germany though. Norway and Iceland never joined, Denmark and Sweden opted out of the Euro and the UK left altogether. Meanwhile the south is all in. The north is generally speaking a lot less willing to integrate.
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Apr 16, 2020 02:37
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Owling Howl posted:It's not particular to Germany though. Norway and Iceland never joined, Denmark and Sweden opted out of the Euro and the UK left altogether. Meanwhile the south is all in. The north is generally speaking a lot less willing to integrate. As for Iceland, it's in a pretty unique position vis-a-vis Europe. Like, it's sitting far out in the Atlantic, why would you expect it to have any sort of great pan-European feeling? Especially one that can overcome the fact that 40% of their exports are fish, and that high tariffs are used to protect their agricultural sector. Plus it wasn't that long ago it was a colony, and it's position in the periphery of the periphery would ensure that it would remain so within the EU.
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Apr 16, 2020 05:25
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Having a relationship where you only do the stuff that's good for you but not to the other participants and are passively and sometimes, actively harmfull to the other side, seems like something that is bad, but I'm not a relationship expert. wonder why so many people feel angry about the EU. If we're not doing full monetary, Banking and fiscal union then what the hell are we doing? Cause from where I'm standing it seems that the northern countries set up a free trade Zone, with unrestricted capital flow and unrestricted access to a immense pool of specialised and cheap labour that they didn't need to spend money on educating for pennies on the euro. Weird how that happened.
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Apr 16, 2020 11:36
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would you support giving the european union *more* power after seeing how loving evil it is
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Apr 16, 2020 11:39
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The EU's decision making bodies are entirely staffed by national governments, so in a sense you're getting a feel for what your own government is like if you remove literally every available layer of accountability. Also it's been dominated by right wingers for going on 20 years so mildly psychopathic is kind of a best case scenario. But in the event of deep integration and direct democratic accountability I would 100% in a heartbeat give it the powers it needs. Key word being direct accountability to people, as opposed to national gov'ts or nameless bureaucracy.
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Apr 16, 2020 11:51
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Antifa Poltergeist posted:Having a relationship where you only do the stuff that's good for you but not to the other participants and are passively and sometimes, actively harmfull to the other side, seems like something that is bad, but I'm not a relationship expert. That's pretty simplistic though. The EU isn't just PIGS and The Frugal Four®. Most of the actually impoverished and underdeveloped EU regions are in the east and have benefited immensely from the EU and the wealth transfers from the west. IRC EU structural funds are major share of public spending in countries like Hungary and the only way how these countries can run quality public infrastructure like healthcare. It's isn't all just "bing bong, fygm".
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Apr 16, 2020 11:55
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GABA ghoul posted:That's pretty simplistic though. The EU isn't just PIGS and The Frugal Four®. Most of the actually impoverished and underdeveloped EU regions are in the east and have benefited immensely from the EU and the wealth transfers from the west. IRC EU structural funds are major share of public spending in countries like Hungary and the only way how these countries can run quality public infrastructure like healthcare. It's isn't all just "bing bong, fygm". Do you really want to defend the EU's record on healthcare? Because I have no doubt that there have been many structural funds into roads and railways to Also, structural funds are pittances compared to the tax revenue the double irish scheme caused, or the tax avoidance Luxembourg, the Netherlands and Ireland avoid, or the loss of tax revenues because of austerity. And way, way less than what Germany would lose in exports if their currency properly reflected the demand for those exports, instead of outsourcing the damage to all of the other countries with different trade positions. Competitive devaluation is a legit instrument and its how many countries managed to export stuff. It just seems that certain countries want hard money without the downsides. Plus with devalued currencies imports become more expensive, so hey, a more frugal living. Oh, and another thing: "Well, many of those countries that are now hosed received structural funds" sounds to me like "Well, he paid for such a lavish wedding, now maybe you should apply more makeup to your bruises and be happy he just beats you up the normal amount." Dawncloack fucked around with this message at 12:12 on Apr 16, 2020 |
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Apr 16, 2020 12:08
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Yeah I seem to remember a lot of our structural funds went to highways for some reason. I mostly associate it with national corruption though.
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Apr 16, 2020 12:12
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Dawncloack posted:Do you really want to defend the EU's record on healthcare? Because I have no doubt that there have been many structural funds into roads and railways to Greece is a mid-income country. I'm talking about the underdeveloped low income countries/regions in the east. And yes, even public investment in transportation infrastructure improves healthcare because it frees up local funding to be spend on healthcare that would have otherwise went into infrastructure. You are trying to bring back the discussion to the Eurozone and the PIGS, but I don't disagree with you on that issue. The Eurozone doesn't work favorably for them. But that's not what I'm talking about here. The EU is much bigger than PIGS.
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Apr 16, 2020 12:16
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mortons stork posted:But in the event of deep integration and direct democratic accountability I would 100% in a heartbeat give it the powers it needs. Key word being direct accountability to people, as opposed to national gov'ts or nameless bureaucracy. The problem with direct accountability is that politicians will only court people from their own language groups. You can see it in Belgium where about 150 years after it's creation as a state, the parties all split into Flemish and Walloon parties. The Flemish don't really defend their ideas in the south, the Walloons hardly appear in the north. There might be a few true polyglots in European politics, but the average German isn't going to explain his socialist views in southern France nor is a conservative Italian going to tell the Polish population what needs to happen. You'd end up with a lot of nationalists getting elected because they spent their time talking to people who speak their own language (literally), while the europhiles wasted time trying to convince people who give no poo poo about them nor their views.
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Apr 16, 2020 12:20
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orange sky posted:Yeah I seem to remember a lot of our structural funds went to highways for some reason. I mostly associate it with national corruption though. It was, but there's also a shitload of structural funds that are allocated to projects that buy Siemens machinery. Or Bayer, or merck, or schennelecke.im pretty certain 90% of all heavy machinery, manufacturing robots or assorted industry , pharmaceutical machinery, services and software is German, and it's not because German engineering is some incredible thing. It's not a nefarious plot of world domination, I'm saying that was the whole point, and failure to acknowledge that is part of the reason we are here.germany bootstraps are assembled in Poland, and transported by lorries driven by Greeks.
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Apr 16, 2020 12:59
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GABA ghoul posted:Greece is a mid-income country. I'm talking about the underdeveloped low income countries/regions in the east. And yes, even public investment in transportation infrastructure improves healthcare because it frees up local funding to be spend on healthcare that would have otherwise went into infrastructure.
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Apr 16, 2020 17:40
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i don't think they asked tbh, expansion is one of the things that the EU can actually do and elite consensus in the age of blair, schröder and chiraq was completely insane
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Apr 16, 2020 20:23
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V. Illych L. posted:i don't think they asked tbh, expansion is one of the things that the EU can actually do and elite consensus in the age of blair, schröder and chiraq was completely insane
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Apr 16, 2020 20:48
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was silvio going to protest? aznar lopez?
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Apr 16, 2020 21:53
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Doctor Jeep posted:this is it, a mass exit and the establishment of a new union I for one am ready for the European Union of Not-Germanies.
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Apr 16, 2020 22:33
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V. Illych L. posted:would you support giving the european union *more* power after seeing how loving evil it is HI welcome to the question of the 21st century and the reason new nazism will spawn. Not saying your a nazi or anything of the like V Illych, but your question will be the same that citizens of the EU nations will ask when voting for Nationalists. No referendum of "Disband all nation states, de-platform your "race" (Remember fascists rhetoric) and succumb to the EU Parliment" No ONE is going to vote yes for this. Especially now that coronavirus is sweeping through. WAR CRIME GIGOLO fucked around with this message at 22:43 on Apr 16, 2020 |
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Apr 16, 2020 22:41
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A Buttery Pastry posted:I wonder, how was the whole eastern expansion sold in various EU countries? The expansion basically took the rich north/poor south divide and changed it into a rich north/middle south/poor east division - the obvious consequence of which being that the focus on development shifting from the south to the east. It seems unlikely that the northern countries expected to carry the burden of lifting the east up on their own, while still supporting the south as before. On the other hand, it also seems a little unlikely that the south expected to end up a sort of net-neutral area for EU funding. That'd be a problem on its own even before you added in the Euro, which I suppose kinda covered up this shift before the Euro entered its period of (obvious) crisis which has now lasted longer than the good times. I never had the impression that the eastern EU expansion was considered much of a burden here in Germany. There was a lot of bitching about crime/open borders, but never about the financial aspect. The east eagerly going along with integration and liberalisation was probably a major factor in this. Overall, the whole process is considered a huge success story here. They saw an insane increase in living standards and economic development and Germany's economy massively profited from it too. And yeah, there is generally more goodwill towards Poland than Italy, considering that Poland is still a recovering country and northern Italy is one of the richest regions in the EU. The UK seems to have experienced the whole thing very differently though, considering how big of a factor Polish migration and the EU budget was in the whole Brexit debate.
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Apr 16, 2020 22:51
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V. Illych L. posted:would you support giving the european union *more* power after seeing how loving evil it is Have you, like, seen the neverending shitshow that is our national governments? Have you considered that policymakers basically retire to the EU to sit out domestic corruption scandals because it's considered a boring meaningless assignment?
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Apr 17, 2020 01:06
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I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
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Eastern Europe is a cheap source of labour in a say Southern Europe isn't. So the money-havers aren't complaining while the nationalists can use it to tell voters it's immigrants stealing your jobs. Nobody wins by making too much noise about it.
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Apr 17, 2020 03:27
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the eu and esp the eurozone has 0 future without being federalized, and since that won't happen, brexit is just what is going to happen to all countries eventually
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Apr 17, 2020 03:33
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