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Was that Desmond Fishman? Because that sounds like the fishman.
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Apr 15, 2020 16:57
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oh my god no, but if someone can PLEASE point me in the direction of that webcomic i would be in their debt. i have been thinking about that line forever because it's such a clunker it's been rattling around in my brain for like a decade. that one is so bad it deserves a little clinical dissection to determine what planet it was beamed in from.
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Apr 15, 2020 17:00
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fun hater posted:oh my god no, but if someone can PLEASE point me in the direction of that webcomic i would be in their debt. i have been thinking about that line forever because it's such a clunker it's been rattling around in my brain for like a decade. that one is so bad it deserves a little clinical dissection to determine what planet it was beamed in from. I remember the creator or a creator went stomping into CC with a thread titled "Thou art ready for some Epic Webcomictry?" or something similar, back when SA mattered (as much). You are just going to have to take my word for it. On SFP, I agree that it was better when it was asking questions than when it tried to answer them. I will admit to being a participant in the mock thread (You can find the receipts there), but honestly there were aspects to it that even I felt that I needed to duck out of the thread and comic for periods at a time. Particularly people being obsessed with overcorrecting some statistics about rape in the rapist chapter to the point where it felt reactionary.
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Apr 15, 2020 17:10
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nine-gear crow posted:It's possibly a byproduct of today's internet culture. Folks seem to make the assumption that if people make bad things, then they are also bad people when actually they could be really cool and good and just kinda suck and writing and drawn, ect. I know it's bias I've fallen into once or twice myself and have gone "Oh, well, I'm actually happy to be wrong in this case." So it definitely happens. Well, I think we can't look past that SFP's problems emerged from very real issues in the worldview of the story's creators. It was two white progressives trying to tell a bold story they weren't equipped to tell, and unwilling to acknowledge that their privilege meant they were loving it up, and both of them reacted to criticism as you might expect—wild accusations and defensiveness rather than acknowledge they'd hosed up and triggered rape victims in their carelessness. That scene with the libertarian was deeply upsetting and absolutely beyond the pale, even before you get into mock thread exaggeration. It was bad. Does this make Molly Ostertag a bad person? That's the wrong question. But it does demonstrate some of the issues with progressive spaces where the fundamental issues of why two privileged creatives decided that they were the ones to tell this story, in spite of having, really, no relevant awareness about or experience with anything that would equip them to tell the story, are never examined. Also, everybody celebrated Feral, but that was the most contrived torture porn I think I've ever seen in a webcomic. Like, it was honestly triggering a "is this a fetish" moment when I saw it. They were trying so loving hard to make her situation horrifying when SMBC's "Endless super strength? How about you just power a turbine?" does the question of ethical obligations of using superpowers legitimately better. Having someone with the powers of Superman being told that his best role isn't wearing a cape and being on the news for punching guys, but rather, doing tedious, dehumanizing factory labor could actually go somewhere about masculinity and labor, and what someone's duty to sacrifice for the community versus protecting their own well-being is.
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Apr 15, 2020 17:28
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Joe Slowboat posted:Was that Desmond Fishman? Because that sounds like the fishman. Nah, I looked it up, and it was a comic called The Broken Mirror. Someone's review of it is still up on the Bad Webcomics Wiki! It begins with this wonderful sentence: quote:In the literary world, their are all sorts of works, in all sizes. The review itself is as stilted and goofy as the comic it's slating, and honestly, that's a pattern in a lot of this sort of criticism.
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Apr 15, 2020 17:30
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Unlucky7 posted:I remember the creator or a creator went stomping into CC with a thread titled "Thou art ready for some Epic Webcomictry?" or something similar, back when SA mattered (as much). You are just going to have to take my word for it. There was that whole thing where the protagonist's doctor mentions like, "one in four women will experience sexual assault or rape in their lifetime, and only 2% of rapists are ever convicted", and as someone reading the comic it just came off as totally non-objectionable. But the mockthread nicknamed this character Dr. Rapestatistics and were like, I dunno, sceptical of the fact that a doctor would mention this? You're right, it came off as reactionary and weird - but in an almost accidental way, where people who just wanted to make fun of something had stumbled into making fun of something that was actually pretty sensitive.
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Apr 15, 2020 17:42
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This is why I hate the mockthread attitude, because it's incompatible with actual analysis of why something succeeds or fails, which to me is the most interesting part. Sinfest and The Legacy of Dominic Deegan are both god-awful comics, and they're both god-awful because of the creator's distorted worldview, but the ways and reasons are totally different. (Sinfest is bad like a spear because it's art deliberately weaponized to hurt people. Dominic Deegan is bad like a fifty-foot skyscraper whose first floor is a large marshmallow — the artist's understanding of the world is so mushy that anything built on that foundation will wobble in horrifying and unpredictable ways.) Anyway, that's why that sort of thing has been banished to the Highly-Specific Webcomics Thread For Not Liking Webcomics In.
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Apr 15, 2020 17:50
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Precambrian posted:Well, I think we can't look past that SFP's problems emerged from very real issues in the worldview of the story's creators. It was two white progressives trying to tell a bold story they weren't equipped to tell, and unwilling to acknowledge that their privilege meant they were loving it up, and both of them reacted to criticism as you might expect—wild accusations and defensiveness rather than acknowledge they'd hosed up and triggered rape victims in their carelessness. That scene with the libertarian was deeply upsetting and absolutely beyond the pale, even before you get into mock thread exaggeration. It was bad. I actually am still a little confused about what the magical libertarian is supposed to have done to Feral. Someone here said he made her power so efficient she couldn't donate anymore?
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Apr 15, 2020 17:53
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Mookie's dialog has actually improved quite a lot recently.
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Apr 15, 2020 17:59
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Rand Brittain posted:This is why I hate the mockthread attitude, because it's incompatible with actual analysis of why something succeeds or fails, which to me is the most interesting part. Sinfest and The Legacy of Dominic Deegan are both god-awful comics, and they're both god-awful because of the creator's distorted worldview, but the ways and reasons are totally different. Yeah, you get this weird negative feedback loop where, because the point of the thread is to find things to dislike, minor flaws are exaggerated and, when the artist does something right, people are hesitant to acknowledge it. The truth is, a lot of bad webcomics spend most of their time being mediocre, and only put out something truly awful every so often. It's a lot less funny to post about mediocre things than bad ones though, so the mediocre strips go under the microscope until someone can find a justification for why they're awful, too. There's something cathartic and satisfying about ragging on stuff - and I think as a result, mock threads wind up having the same energy as Youtube rant reviewers like the Nostalgia Critic or Zero Punctuation, where ultimately the point is to find a justification to get performatively angry at the text.
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Apr 15, 2020 18:03
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PetraCore posted:I actually am still a little confused about what the magical libertarian is supposed to have done to Feral. Someone here said he made her power so efficient she couldn't donate anymore? He made her regeneration so strong that she started to generate organs faster than they could actually transport them and implant them into people who needed them, so she was able to take weekdays off. quote:Mookie's dialog has actually improved quite a lot recently. His actual comic-making skills aren't nearly as bad as people mock them for being; it's the bizarre and contrived situations he forces the story into that show the story's weak points, such as last week, when the nameless ink witch, sharing a bed with the protagonist for economy reasons, strips off all her clothes in her sleep and starts sleep-cuddling his naked-rear end self. Then he writes a diary entry about how great cuddling a girl is and I don't think there's any indication that this is supposed to be weird or creepy. How do you even get there?
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Apr 15, 2020 18:05
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Rand Brittain posted:His actual comic-making that post was a joke his latest (terrible) comic (technically) lacks dialogue
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Apr 15, 2020 18:08
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Oxxidation posted:that post was a joke I didn't really include things like "decision to make the protagonist deaf and have no dialogue except through contrivances" or "decision to include male nudity because that's how you know it's a comic for grown-ups" under "technical comic-making skills." Bad decisions and the ability to implement those decisions are separate from each other.
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Apr 15, 2020 18:12
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He should at least have the courage to draw some hyper-detailed mongrelman cock. It's cowardice to curl out that loosely imagined tube over and over.
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Apr 15, 2020 18:36
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Android Blues posted:It reminds me of one of the ancient Bad Webcomics threads, where much was made of a single line of dialogue in some comic or other being completely unrealistic and no human being would ever speak like this, etc. The line in question was: "Wait here whilst I go and get some ice creams". God I remember that comic, I think it never got finished. Iirc I enjoyed the author's previous webcomic which was about a group of friends meeting up at a house in the country and falling through a portal to mysterious mist shrouded other worldly island. Kinda standard modern scifi fantasy stuff but it had nice colours. I think the ice creams one was some transhumanist story? I have no idea how to begin to look either of them up.
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Apr 15, 2020 18:37
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Okay I lied I remembered about the yourwebcomicisbad blog and found an archive of it, the ice cream comic was called "the broken mirror" and its url is now some jaoanese website. I did find a tvtropes page about "between 2 worlds" which is the earlier comic that was actually finished. Its still online at http://b2w.ungroup.net/
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Apr 15, 2020 20:59
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Mr Phillby posted:God I remember that comic, I think it never got finished. Iirc I enjoyed the author's previous webcomic which was about a group of friends meeting up at a house in the country and falling through a portal to mysterious mist shrouded other worldly island. Kinda standard modern scifi fantasy stuff but it had nice colours. Yep, The Broken Mirror is totally offline. And part of the reason that "Sit here whilst I go and get some iced creams" line became a thread joke was the whole comic was written like that because the author was very much that kind of purple prose writer-type. It was going to be about some virtual world, I think, but it puttered around for a long time on how the protagonists were misunderstood social outcasts with tragic family backgrounds and fell apart before any real plot emerged. I remember reading it because some other comic I was following at the time promoted it and kind of went "Ehhh pass." Then later I came across one of those John Solomon reviews and agreed with most of the point about the writing being shallow even with the overblown language. Unlucky7 posted:I remember the creator or a creator went stomping into CC with a thread titled "Thou art ready for some Epic Webcomictry?" or something similar, back when SA mattered (as much). You are just going to have to take my word for it. I think she posted in the webcomic thread itself, because that was before the comic-making thread was split off into CC to wither into a husk. Android Blues posted:There's something cathartic and satisfying about ragging on stuff - and I think as a result, mock threads wind up having the same energy as Youtube rant reviewers like the Nostalgia Critic or Zero Punctuation, where ultimately the point is to find a justification to get performatively angry at the text. SFP was interesting because it conveyed just enough about the world that you could get an idea of how it all worked, but you could tell a lot of it was made up on the spot and brittle enough to fall apart even with a light examination. It turns out that trying to make a political superhero comic that's also grounded in the real world is incredibly hard because the existence of those kinds of reality-bending powers would be such a drastic paradigm shift that the would "realistically" would bear very little resemblance to ours within a matter of months, let alone years. And SFP didn't really try to set up any guard rails to stop it all from flying off a cliff beyond acknowledging that some shadow organization of unknown strength and reach eliminated all kids with "powers that could really change things" or whatever. Dominic Deegan is kind of interesting historically, as something so sincerely amateur that still managed to be a successful and notable webcomic for a small window. At this point, Mookie is only making more comics for himself, and there's really not anything worth commenting on most of the time that can't be said of every page of comic he's penciled out since he started.
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Apr 15, 2020 21:21
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Rand Brittain posted:I didn't really include things like "decision to make the protagonist deaf and have no dialogue except through contrivances" or "decision to include male nudity because that's how you know it's a comic for grown-ups" under "technical comic-making skills." His decision to not use squaremaking tools, leaving each panel with weird spare pixels at the corners where his lines ran over is still pretty funny, tho.
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Apr 15, 2020 23:11
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Nuns with Guns posted:Yep, The Broken Mirror is totally offline. I can't imagine how disheartening it must have been to put so much time and effort into something then have John Solomon swearily rip it to pieces then have a mob of abusive people tell you that you're worthless if you don't kowtow to them and agree to follow their advice to the letter. No wonder they stopped doing webcomics.
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Apr 15, 2020 23:14
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Was Solomon a goon?
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Apr 15, 2020 23:27
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I know Gigi D.G. was on the forums for a while, but eventually just got totally disgusted with the “base your identity on making GBS threads on things other people create” attitude of the thread(s) and basically swore off SA forever. And, honestly, can’t blame her. We do to webcomics what Star Wars superfans did to Jake Lloyd.
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Apr 15, 2020 23:36
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Dawgstar posted:Was Solomon a goon? forums user fuego fish i believe
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Apr 16, 2020 00:15
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mock threads are, as has been explored and discussed multiple times, universally awful and degrade into people either eating each other or devolving into a nitpicky hell that starts to go farther and farther into the depths of madness in order to throw fuel onto the proverbial flames just to keep the fires stoked. but. i do wish there was a way for people to have more honest (and not cruelty-disguised-as-honesty as the unending thread vibe) discussion about webcomics outside of "this was good" because that's all that's really been allowed to happen in this thread for a while out of fear of falling into the mock thread hole. some webcomics are laughably bad and i really like those but i think needlessly harshly picking at their flaws is absolutely the wrongest way to approach reading them. most are good. some whiff it on occasions and those whiffs are interesting to discuss. i'm unsure what the climate of this thread is anymore since it receives much less traffic than it used to, but i think these thread regulars are less likely to develop mock-thread sickness especially given the discussion on SFP went really well. i dont know if i had a point to this except that i like webcomics, good and bad, and am sad people cant enjoy them for the variety of different reasons you can enjoy good and bad things
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Apr 16, 2020 00:34
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the CCCC thread def still has mockthread energy in it's DNA, but it's chilled out a ton and like over half the comics posted in there nowadays are comics people (or at the very least, the person posting it) are positive towards (like I think the only comic that's being posted that's being done so completely out of genuine unambiguous mockery right now is the new Dominic Deegan stuff?). Doesn't hurt that some of the regulars have gotten perma'd
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Apr 16, 2020 00:38
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I mean, specific bad webcomics can still end up with their own threads, where at least the circlejerk is quarantined. (I say this as a semi-regular reader of the Deegan thread.)
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Apr 16, 2020 00:39
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Personally, I really like a chance to talk about how something fails to work - which isn't the same as mockery, though obviously it can slide into that. I've found the Legacy of Dominic Deegan thread interesting precisely as a discussion of a work that is so elaborately bad that it becomes interesting. I also enjoy talking about bad TTRPGs! But that kind of critical discussion has happened pretty effectively in this thread? So it's not clear that we need a big change of the thread tenor. Right now, someone has to have pretty clear, thought out criticism to post them here without being told off for mock-thread-ing. Or, at the very least, people have put up with my frustration with certain webcomics ending up here, so, there's that.
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Apr 16, 2020 01:12
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I wish people wanted to make fun of Monster Pulse the way I want to.
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Apr 16, 2020 01:17
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thrilla in vanilla posted:I wish people wanted to make fun of Monster Pulse the way I want to. I feel like the last chapter has had a combination of very cool ideas and some missteps; I don't think reintroducing a character from a guest comic (only available on gumroad) during the climactic confrontation was a great use of pacing for the webcomic version, even if the print version will include that guest story. But I'm pretty interested in where this train wreck is going.
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Apr 16, 2020 01:22
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I think my biggest criticism of MP is probably how wildly it will switch gears in its pacing. Feels kind of a coin flip where sometimes we'll be in a nice extended groove typical long form comic affair and suddenly we're in an accelerated different storyline or maybe a story that feels it'll be longer but isnt. Or things like that. off the top of my head I figured the automics would matter more than the..one? Chapter they were in. The new kids I Thought would be a longer affair before we went straight to a boss rush and then midway through that it felt like we were hurtling towards end game and then we went into the ACTUAL end game with the X Before Boat chapters. When I was first binging the comic I thought the kids would wind up using Lulenski a lot more than they did, I remember going "oh we dropped that pretty fast". I think the titular monster pulse radar was also used maybe 3 times. I don't think I hated any given storyline, at least, and I'll always respect a webcomic just going "eh gently caress it" and speeding things up or cutting somethings hort to get to the next thing. MP having a known end point and working towards it and likely finishing out this year is nice! But definite feelings of whiplash throughout the comic's life. Also the boss rush in shell labs was just really silly. Lots of logn empty hall ways and then a designated mostly empty boss room for each kid.
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Apr 16, 2020 02:02
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Mr Phillby posted:Tbh I look back at this poo poo and just wonder why we had to be so rude. Yeah the prose was purple but like it was just some kids personal project. Fine to titter about in private but there was a real like expectation that any artist should be striving for self improvement towards ultimate perfection, no room was left for anyone to just enjoy creating something even if it wasn't great. The whole thing was right before I registered on the forums, so I can't really say how rude people were being. I think in general there was a lot more of an attitude around slapping down people who couldn't handle criticism, however unsolicited it was, even just a few years ago. I remember when the big hot thing was finding an above average teenager on DeviantArt and giving them harsh-but-technically-correct feedback on a random art piece to see how hard they'd melt down. I feels like stuff like that is a lot more of a third rail nowadays, and I do think that's for the better because ultimately that's still just bad faith trolling someone who's really not equipped to handle it well. Even picking on old standbys like Dobson feels pretty lovely in this day and age when all you can say about him is he's a mediocre manchild with a squandered art degree and definitely not worth paying attention to. fun hater posted:mock threads are, as has been explored and discussed multiple times, universally awful and degrade into people either eating each other or devolving into a nitpicky hell that starts to go farther and farther into the depths of madness in order to throw fuel onto the proverbial flames just to keep the fires stoked. I don't agree that people don't feel like they can't say anything besides "this was good" in this thread, but do think part of the problem was for a while any webcomic that had more than 10 posts in a row from an update was prompting people to make their own siloed megathread for that single comic. You take all the comics out of the thread people are excited to talk about (and are reading closely enough to get analytical about) and you're not really left with much besides the occasional comment about how Questionable Content made a couple people feel that day. I still don't think most of the webcomics with their own threads update regularly enough to warrant a thread where people can repost variations of the same 6 thread memes in between discussion of (at best) 2 or 3 new single pages a week, but any of them that are still active are probably too invested in their little thread culture to close now. Anyway, some good comics get posted here and I've found some cool new things in the past few months from this thread, but it's hard to post about new comics because you don't know if anyone else is reading them, or you see a cool page but the comic is like 200 pages long and you know that's going to be your evening catching up before you can contribute to a discussion. The CCCC thread does have the advantage of dumping large blocks of comics straight onto the page so you know someone's reading along and can give feedback as the story unfolds. All we can really do is give updates when there's a cool page, I guess and wait for some other people to get excited enough by the story to follow along, too. 
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Apr 16, 2020 02:55
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Nuns with Guns posted:The whole thing was right before I registered on the forums, so I can't really say how rude people were being. I think in general there was a lot more of an attitude around slapping down people who couldn't handle criticism, however unsolicited it was, even just a few years ago. I remember when the big hot thing was finding an above average teenager on DeviantArt and giving them harsh-but-technically-correct feedback on a random art piece to see how hard they'd melt down. I feels like stuff like that is a lot more of a third rail nowadays, and I do think that's for the better because ultimately that's still just bad faith trolling someone who's really not equipped to handle it well. Even picking on old standbys like Dobson feels pretty lovely in this day and age when all you can say about him is he's a mediocre manchild with a squandered art degree and definitely not worth paying attention to. I think the attitude of using criticism to justify anything (because criticism is good and only had artists reject it!!!) was an aspect of broader internet culture even outside SA. People have kinda lost their naitivity about harrassment since then. I'm reminded of the Lindsey Ellis Twilight and how it mentions that Stephanie Meyer was called a diva who only wanted an echo chamber for not directly receiving her mail, when in retrospect it is totally believable she was receiving thousands of death threats a day lol
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Apr 16, 2020 08:09
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mycot posted:I think the attitude of using criticism to justify anything (because criticism is good and only had artists reject it!!!) was an aspect of broader internet culture even outside SA. People have kinda lost their naitivity about harrassment since then. I'm reminded of the Lindsey Ellis Twilight and how it mentions that Stephanie Meyer was called a diva who only wanted an echo chamber for not directly receiving her mail, when in retrospect it is totally believable she was receiving thousands of death threats a day lol She did eat those words though.
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Apr 16, 2020 09:17
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I mean these days if people on the internet want you to feel bad at least they're direct about it on twitter 
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Apr 16, 2020 09:32
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of all the randos to wander up and take a huge poo poo on a webcomic I've written, I will say the folks from SA were the nicest / most fun about it like, SA at its worst wasn't as desperate for blood as Bad Webcomics Wiki, or some of the blood pressure commercials I stumbled across on ComicFury someone briefly mentioned my old comic on 4Chan and that's as far as it got there, for which I am relieved, as it was like a cold shadow passing over my grave
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Apr 16, 2020 19:30
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Kind of worried that Undine is about to do something rash if she thinks that you know saving Zoe's family and all qualifies as doing nothing.
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Apr 16, 2020 20:13
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Twibbit posted:Kind of worried that Undine is about to do something rash if she thinks that you know saving Zoe's family and all qualifies as doing nothing. It's normal magical girl stuff. She isn't doing anything about Goopy. And she's right; other than her normal patrols she hasn't been doing anything to look into it; she doesn't even know her former best friend was in contact with her. As yet - as far as she knows - she and Kokoro are the only ones that even know this major threat exists, and she's hiding it in case sharing the knowledge endangers others. And now she's seeing how that isn't working out well, I can hardly blame her for doubting herself and trying to push herself to more action. That said, it's hard to blame her for taking it at the pace she has been either. It can't have been more than a couple of weeks since Team Alchemical were killed. She's needed both to centre herself, and to find someone else to watch her back - Goopy got the better of her once before with the backup of three teammates, she'll never manage alone.
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Apr 16, 2020 20:27
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Iirc Bad Webcomics Wiki was a bunch of less funny people jumping on the John Solomon bandwagon so we're sort of to blame for that one.
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Apr 16, 2020 20:33
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Mr Phillby posted:Iirc Bad Webcomics Wiki was a bunch of less funny people jumping on the John Solomon bandwagon so we're sort of to blame for that one. It was also a product of the Helldump era and still bears a lot of groady Helldump hallmarks in its writeups.
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Apr 16, 2020 20:52
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mycot posted:I think the attitude of using criticism to justify anything (because criticism is good and only had artists reject it!!!) was an aspect of broader internet culture even outside SA. As a broader internet issue, I think the problem would be better described as critics not taking rejection well. At least in my experience, artists tend to be incredibly receptive toward criticism and love seeing what others think of their work, positive and negative. But, this comes with the caveat that not everyone's tastes can be simultaneously met. Like, I personally think SFP would've been better if Allison's attempts to "fix the world" brought her closer and closer to being a full-on antagonist, but I can understand that the author probably wanted to write a less-dark story where Allison's attempts to be a better hero ultimately work out for her. That's probably the sort of story his core audience wants, too. I used to be that "criticism is good and only bad artists reject it" type of person when I was younger, until this time an author found some friends and I while we were lambasting his work. He wasn't angry or anything; he respected our opinions and just kind of explained what he was going for on the parts we didn't like, and why it was probably connecting with his audience better than it was connecting with us. It was a kind of sobering experience for 19-year-old me to realize that my ability to dislike something didn't necessarily make my feelings important. But like, I can completely understand where someone who builds their identity around criticizing things might try make their criticism matter by establishing consequences for going against it. It's not that the criticism is being used to justify harm, but that the harm is an attempt to make their criticism matter. Criticism (even the mocking variety) can be a positive thing, but it has to be recognized as an exploration of one's own tastes and preferences, rather than an attempt to harm or exercise control over a creator. Like, SA mock threads are at their best when they're full of creativity: fixing character designs, polishing punchlines, and discussing the sort of things that would make them personally like the comic more, analyzing and displaying their own tastes and preferences. Discussion like this can also be beneficial to creators, since negative opinions are rarely given privately and directly. Like, every once in a while I'll get fanmail that sounds like it's walking on eggshells, and if I point it out, the person usually will detail horrible experiences they (or friends) have had with creators they attempted to be critical of. Some people will only feel comfortable being negative when they have safety in numbers, and to some degree environments for that need to be respected and preserved.
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Apr 16, 2020 21:57
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Kazerad posted:wisdom The harshest words I've ever gotten were from people who wanted me to be making something else, or not making anything at all. Just the act of making the thing they don't want you to be making is some grievous offense, and no amount of improvement will make up for that. They don't want your art to be BETTER, they want it to stop existing or to be something else entirely. Criticism with any hint of real substance is perfectly fine, I would welcome tons of that over absolute silence. Putting art into the world and then hearing nothing in response is the actual worst.
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Apr 16, 2020 22:26
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