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von Braun posted:I got interviewed for train technician and subway cleaner. The language part of those tests were insane imo, like why do they even have those there. Presumably because a significant portion of their workforce has immigrant backgrounds, and they want to ensure that the people applying can understand technical language that can be stiff and boring.
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Apr 15, 2020 14:12
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A big TV and radio name died of Corona here in Sweden, Adam Alsing. He was only 51 
Fartbox fucked around with this message at 21:03 on Apr 15, 2020 |
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Apr 15, 2020 20:49
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I went to the same school as his son. gently caress me that hits hard.
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Apr 15, 2020 21:55
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It feels unreal
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Apr 15, 2020 22:16
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It doesn't help that he kind of looks like my dad, yet my dad is significantly older.
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Apr 15, 2020 22:24
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I'm not gonna lie, Adam Alsing being dead has me real shook. Jesus
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Apr 16, 2020 01:56
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After increasing the national debt by 59% to try to save businesses during a deadly pandemic, parliament thought this was the perfect time to spend half a million restoring the Queen's cutlery.
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Apr 16, 2020 12:21
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"But tradition!" they scream, into the void.
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Apr 16, 2020 12:37
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Put her in her fancy golden chariot, lock the door, call it social isolation for her own safety.
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Apr 16, 2020 13:13
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So current trends in Sweden looks promising, but the elderly homes are a clear problem. A third of all confirmed infected seem to come from elderly homes; and half of all deaths.
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Apr 16, 2020 13:51
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BigglesSWE posted:So current trends in Sweden looks promising, but the elderly homes are a clear problem. A third of all confirmed infected seem to come from elderly homes; and half of all deaths. That was always going to be the case, and also why it is so important to quarantine this group. 95%+ of the dead are going to be 70+.
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Apr 16, 2020 14:11
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I'm having a hard time understanding all the hate on FHM and the Swedish strategy during this pandemic. Would any of you critics care to elaborate what it is that is bad and should be changed from the government compared to the rest of the EU? It seems to me that, given the hellworld we live in where CoVid-19 is here, what FHM is doing seems to more or less work as intended and advance the spread in a controlled pace so that the health care sector does not implode.
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Apr 16, 2020 14:28
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Potrzebie posted:I'm having a hard time understanding all the hate on FHM and the Swedish strategy during this pandemic. Would any of you critics care to elaborate what it is that is bad and should be changed from the government compared to the rest of the EU? Containment measures should not be voluntary. You need an actual ban on certain kinds of activity. The extent depends on the level of infection in the population. You want to get Rn below 1 asap. Then you can start slowly normalizing society with various measures in place. If you skip this step you get exponential growth and people die. Because you missed the boat on stomping down infection growth early, you will need much harsher containment measures, for longer. Also you do not want to "advance in the spread in a controlled pace". Exponential growth doesn't work like that. Spread is bad. Get Rn below 1, then you can crank it up and carefully monitor that it does not go above 1. When/if you get a new outbreak, you will need to increase containment/lockdown measures temporarily to stop exponential spread. That's going to be what the world is like until treatment/vaccine is available. We have tolerate a cycle of containment and careful reopening - probably for years to come. You do not want to "let it spread in a controlled fashion to build herd immunity". Even Anders says that is not the plan. Herd immunity is something you get when your population has been black plague-level devastated or you vaccinate them. Slowly spreading infection does not end with herd immunity - not that "slow spread" even exists. It's really a quite binary thing. Rn must be kept below 1 or you're hosed. I am sorry my Swedish friend, but I think you're hosed. It was a bad idea to underestimate the R0 of this virus.
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Apr 16, 2020 14:35
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We have more (official) deaths than our neighbors, but we’re also counting deaths differently, so to me personally it’s hard to gauge what that even means. I personally feel fairly confident in the Swedish model so far. At the same time, I’m convinced that few, if any, countries could rely on public responsibility to the same extent.
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Apr 16, 2020 14:36
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It might be a Swedish cultural thing? - 'cause as a Swede I too have confidence in FHM and the state.
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Apr 16, 2020 14:40
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BigglesSWE posted:We have more (official) deaths than our neighbors, but we’re also counting deaths differently, so to me personally it’s hard to gauge what that even means. Hopefully our government didn't gently caress up too bad with the rash reopening, and we'll be able to assist when your hospitals can no longer cope with the amount of seriously ill infected. Maybe we're already doing that - I heard helicopters non-stop yesterday night and I live right between Øresund and Rigshospitalet. e: Yeah, it's a Swedish thing. Danes don't have much confidence in politicians. There's already a huge amount of arguing and shitflinging about whether we should lock down more, lock down less or it's just right as we do it. We're decently good at trusting each other and accepting poo poo for the greater good - but not because we trust the system or the politicians. PederP fucked around with this message at 14:42 on Apr 16, 2020 |
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Apr 16, 2020 14:40
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PederP posted:Hopefully our government didn't gently caress up too bad with the rash reopening, and we'll be able to assist when your hospitals can no longer cope with the amount of seriously ill infected. Maybe we're already doing that - I heard helicopters non-stop yesterday night and I live right between Øresund and Rigshospitalet. According to today’s report, we still have a significant amount of IVA slots available, and the temporary hospital in Älvsjö has not been needed as of yet. We’re not in the clear, but we’re a long way off from your “400 000 deaths” projection.
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Apr 16, 2020 14:42
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PederP posted:Containment measures should not be voluntary. You need an actual ban on certain kinds of activity. The extent depends on the level of infection in the population. You want to get Rn below 1 asap. Then you can start slowly normalizing society with various measures in place. If you skip this step you get exponential growth and people die. But this has not worked out empirically, so...? PederP posted:Because you missed the boat on stomping down infection growth early, you will need much harsher containment measures, for longer. I have no idea about this, but I'm sure the people who are actual experts know all about how to handle this. So I'll just ask you this: Can you show me anything that shows what you write to be true and not just opinions? PederP posted:You do not want to "let it spread in a controlled fashion to build herd immunity". Even Anders says that is not the plan. Since FHM does not claim this to be the plan and I did not (intend to) claim this I'm not sure what the relevance is. PederP posted:Herd immunity is something you get when your population has been black plague-level devastated or you vaccinate them. Slowly spreading infection does not end with herd immunity - not that "slow spread" even exists. It's really a quite binary thing. Rn must be kept below 1 or you're hosed. I have no idea what you are talking about, do you? And Anders Tegnell seem to belive that we are approaching Heard Immunity in Stockholm. So yay? PederP posted:I am sorry my Swedish friend, but I think you're hosed. It was a bad idea to underestimate the R0 of this virus. Is the R0 established? Who underestimated it? When? Who did not underestimate the speed of the spread from China when the Party was actively supressing the truth?
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Apr 16, 2020 14:45
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BigglesSWE posted:According to today’s report, we still have a significant amount of IVA slots available, and the temporary hospital in Älvsjö has not been needed as of yet. That's great. The best part about being a pessimist is that I get to be happy when I'm mistaken. I hope my doomsaying turns out to be dumb. I still think you'll lose 5%-10% of Stockholm and Göteborg. Maybe the country side can stay safe due to your population distribution being the opposite pattern of Denmark - I tend to forget that.
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Apr 16, 2020 14:45
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PederP posted:I still think you'll lose 5%-10% of Stockholm and Göteborg. This is insane.
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Apr 16, 2020 14:48
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Potrzebie posted:This is insane. Yes, it is, and it’s predictions like these that makes it difficult to take any of your posts as serious additions to these discussions.
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Apr 16, 2020 14:54
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Potrzebie posted:But this has not worked out empirically, so...? Denmark and Norway has Rn below 1. That's looking a pretty good plan so far, as it allows us to open up when Sweden is shutting down. The people who are "actual experts" include people who think Vietnam-style total lockdown is the only way and people who think the Sweden approach is the only way. It's useless to appeal to authority in an argument about this. But the math of exponential growth is pretty self-explanatory. If Rn is above 1, spread will quickly become massive, if it's below 1 the outbreak will fade. That's not an opinion - that's how math and epidemiology works. The R0 was initially estimated to have a median of 2,6 or 2,7 (can't remember). CDC recently revised this a median of 5,7. As for who did not underestimate it? A few countries were sensible and did a swift, decisive initial containment. As for everyone else, it's not binary when you recognize how serious this and how it should be tackled. Sweden has a very different strategy than anyone else, except Belarus. I know some people claim Sweden has the same strategy as Denmark. No, I am sorry, you do not. The severity of action you need to take is proportional to amount of spread you have. Countries who were either unfortunate, overconfident or sloppy are now facing much lower returns on the same level of containment measures. I respect that Sweden doesn't want to enact measures usually reserved for a police state. I do. But because you were too slow to act, I am afraid that's what you will eventually have to do. But hey as I said many times - I hope I'm wrong. I don't have a hard-on for dead Swedes - so I'd really prefer if everyone else are dumb, and our economies suffer - while our Swedish and Belarussian overlords can crow from their much less affected economies. Because if it's the other way around people are gonna die. Lots of people. I think it's weird you get mad that some of us worry about our fellow human beings. Seriously. It's just love. Take it easy. e: I'm basing my insane predictions on the Chinese lockdowns and the WHO estimates. Remember several WHO experts have stated that 5%-20% will die if you fail to contain this. I know WHO are not exactly a beacon of truth. But hey, I'm a pessimist.
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Apr 16, 2020 14:56
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One one hand you say we can’t refer to expert opinion, on the other you point out what WHO experts has claimed before. Oh that’s right, you’re a “pessimist”, that means you can pick and choose according to your world view. Please, by all means.
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Apr 16, 2020 15:08
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PederP posted:e: I'm basing my insane predictions on the Chinese lockdowns and the WHO estimates. Remember several WHO experts have stated that 5%-20% will die if you fail to contain this. I know WHO are not exactly a beacon of truth. But hey, I'm a pessimist. Did they say this recently? Because that is certainly not the official advice from the WHO, isn't anything like the mortality rates among infected people we've seen anywhere, and is such a huge range that I wonder what information it could even be based on other than wild guessing.
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Apr 16, 2020 15:09
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PederP posted:Denmark and Norway has Rn below 1. FHI does not claim R0<1 Can't find the Danish equivalent. PederP posted:The people who are "actual experts" include people who think Vietnam-style total lockdown is the only way and people who think the Sweden approach is the only way. It's useless to appeal to authority in an argument about this. But the math of exponential growth is pretty self-explanatory. If Rn is above 1, spread will quickly become massive, if it's below 1 the outbreak will fade. That's not an opinion - that's how math and epidemiology works.  PederP posted:The R0 was initially estimated to have a median of 2,6 or 2,7 (can't remember). CDC recently revised this a median of 5,7. And the true R0 can not be determined during the outbreak, yeah? PederP posted:As for who did not underestimate it? A few countries were sensible and did a swift, decisive initial containment. As for everyone else, it's not binary when you recognize how serious this and how it should be tackled. Sweden has a very different strategy than anyone else, except Belarus. I know some people claim Sweden has the same strategy as Denmark. No, I am sorry, you do not. I know all about A few sensible Countries. They are the best countries. And only uninformed people think that Denmark and Sweden have the same appro PederP posted:Remember several WHO experts have stated that 5%-20% will die if you fail to contain this. I know WHO are not exactly a beacon of truth. But hey, I'm a pessimist. Lol, no. You are litterary crazy.
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Apr 16, 2020 15:12
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Potrzebie posted:FHI does not claim R0<1 https://nyheder.tv2.dk/samfund/2020-04-14-faldende-smittetryk-i-danmark-er-meget-overraskende-siger-statens-serum-institut 0,6 as of that press conference. And it's not R0, it's Rn. They're not the same. Potrzebie posted:And the true R0 can not be determined during the outbreak, yeah? Of course it can't, that's a pretty obvious consequence of the definition of R0. Potrzebie posted:I know all about A few sensible Countries. They are the best countries. And only uninformed people think that Denmark and Sweden have the same appro Yeah, whatever I hope I'm insane and that you lot won't die in droves. Feel free to invent a reality where WHO haven't warned about high death rates - but that would be actual insanity. Thinking the WHO is dumb and/or corrupt is fine. Simply refusing to believe what WHO experts have said is crazy. Anders Tegnell has stated that Denmark and Sweden have the same strategy. I guess he's uninformed? (he's wrong of course, but I thought you were on Team Anders) big scary monsters posted:Did they say this recently? Because that is certainly not the official advice from the WHO, isn't anything like the mortality rates among infected people we've seen anywhere, and is such a huge range that I wonder what information it could even be based on other than wild guessing. Those are the death rates they're warning about, for countries that do not enact proper containment. It's not the mortality when healthcare is not overwhelmed. https://politiken.dk/indland/art7731411/Flokimmunitet-betyder-at-folk-d%C3%B8r.-Og-I-pr%C3%B8ver-ikke-at-stoppe-det https://nyheder.tv2.dk/samfund/2020-03-25-hvorfor-virker-flokimmunitet-ikke-mod-coronavirus-her-er-hvad-whos-topekspert (please watch the full interview, the article is misleading) PederP fucked around with this message at 15:25 on Apr 16, 2020 |
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Apr 16, 2020 15:19
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Denmark aren’t hammering in the message “STAY AWAY FROM EACHOTHER YOU IMBECILES!!!!”? each and every day the last few weeks? Because that is (part) of the Swedish strategy.
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Apr 16, 2020 15:25
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BigglesSWE posted:Denmark aren’t hammering in the message “STAY AWAY FROM EACHOTHER YOU IMBECILES!!!!”? each and every day the last few weeks? Because that is (part) of the Swedish strategy. Yes, but we also enforced it by banning gatherings above 10 people, closing restaurants, school, daycares and tons of other things. The communication part of the Swedish strategy is fine. I agree it's essentially the same strategy in that regard. But Sweden failed to put down the iron boot of government to get a good headstart, so now you're in a lovely place where you need to do more to get Rn below 1. We got lucky with our headstart and can actually start to reopen stuff now. I think it's going too quickly, but hey's that me. The pessimist.
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Apr 16, 2020 15:27
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https://twitter.com/axelsandin/status/1250670739621117952?s=21 Not presented as evidence, since anecdotal evidence is BS, but as a stockholmer, I’ve certainly seen a massive decrease of people in public places.
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Apr 16, 2020 15:47
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In my opinion where Sweden failed was at the retirement homes. I've talked to a lot of people in regards to this and we basically took no loving measures to protect the elderly and still fail at this completely to this day. Every drat äldreboende should have been on complete lockdown. Instead we're experiencing mass death amongst old folks. Other then that it seems our populace is doing the same thing the other nordics are
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Apr 16, 2020 15:48
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Sweden were way too late imo!! By like a month
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Apr 16, 2020 15:49
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Fartbox posted:In my opinion where Sweden failed was at the retirement homes. I've talked to a lot of people in regards to this and we basically took no loving measures to protect the elderly and still fail at this completely to this day. Every drat äldreboende should have been on complete lockdown. Instead we're experiencing mass death amongst old folks This is certainly true, and it’s a real tragedy. I wonder what future analysis will determine what went wrong there. I’m also curious to see if there’s a pattern to be seen between private and government sector.
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Apr 16, 2020 15:51
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PederP posted:Yes, but we also enforced it by banning gatherings above 10 people, closing restaurants, school, daycares and tons of other things. The communication part of the Swedish strategy is fine. I agree it's essentially the same strategy in that regard. But Sweden failed to put down the iron boot of government to get a good headstart, so now you're in a lovely place where you need to do more to get Rn below 1. I’m a doctor i Skåne and it is surprisingly stable here and has been for several weeks, with 20-30 something mostly 80+ deaths last time I checked. Things have stayed open since this all started and people, though to a lesser degree than before, are out and about. This is after more than a month since the first confirmed cases here. Catastrophe has yet to materialize. If anything I’m worried that Denmark opening the border will gently caress our deal up. Edit: of course schools and workplaces are ”distanced” as far as possible and the trains are noticeably thinned out. A lot has changed, maybe enough. Fox Cunning fucked around with this message at 15:55 on Apr 16, 2020 |
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Apr 16, 2020 15:51
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PederP posted:We're decently good at trusting each other and accepting poo poo for the greater good *nervously eyes the swathes of people currently screaming abuse at the government for finally, after several weeks of hesitation, suspending mandatory handshakes at citizenship ceremonies where gloves were specifically banned* Y-yeah, that's it.
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Apr 16, 2020 15:52
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Fartbox posted:In my opinion where Sweden failed was at the retirement homes. I've talked to a lot of people in regards to this and we basically took no loving measures to protect the elderly and still fail at this completely to this day. Every drat äldreboende should have been on complete lockdown. Instead we're experiencing mass death amongst old folks. Same in Denmark. And they're not being tested. Our elder care was locked down - you are not allowed visit your spouse or parents. But the nurses, doctors and care staff were not given masks. And they sent non-critical Covid-patients back from hospital to retirement homes for in-facility care. With no proper separation in many locations. As of today, the labor union for retirement home personnel and the boomer lobby (Ældresagen) are demanding extensive testing of all retirement home residents and staff. It's going to be a massive scandal. They were essentially sacrificed to make sure there were enough masks for hospitals. All the while isolating our elderly from family and loved ones. SplitSoul posted:*nervously eyes the swathes of people currently screaming abuse at the government for finally, after several weeks of hesitation, suspending mandatory handshakes at citizenship ceremonies where gloves were specifically banned* e: Yeah, that part is messed up. I shouldn't have gone all optimist. We're a misanthropist nation. PederP fucked around with this message at 15:55 on Apr 16, 2020 |
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Apr 16, 2020 15:53
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Being a goon, my life is pretty much like normal.
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Apr 16, 2020 15:56
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PederP posted:e: Yeah, that part is messed up. I shouldn't have gone all optimist. We're a misanthropist nation. I DANMARK GIVER VI ALTSÅ HINANDEN HÅNDEN!!! [Astronomia 2k19.mp3]
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Apr 16, 2020 16:02
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Swedish PM and authorities has today emphasized that restrictions are NOT to be lowered in the foreseeable future, and that in regards to economic policies, they are working from the assumption that society may have to live with limited flexibility all the way till fall.
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Apr 16, 2020 16:06
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PederP posted:e: I'm basing my insane predictions on the Chinese lockdowns and the WHO estimates. Remember several WHO experts have stated that 5%-20% will die if you fail to contain this. I know WHO are not exactly a beacon of truth. But hey, I'm a pessimist. A prediction of 5-10% of the population dead in Stockholm and Goteborg is insanity camouflaged as pessimism. The city of Stockholm has a population of roughly 1 million. Can you outline exactly how you see them getting to a 100,000 dead from this? To get to that number, every single person over 70 would have to die, in addition to a good 2-4% of the rest of the population. Seeing how things are going elsewhere, do you honestly think this is a realistic scenario? Remember, Sweden still has taken quite a few measures against the spread of corona, even though it's not as much as in Denmark/Norway. They can also potentially introduce more measures. Dude, just looking at your posts about corona in this thread, you used to have some level of humility about our level of knowledge about these things. What happened?
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Apr 16, 2020 16:10
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military cervix posted:A prediction of 5-10% of the population dead in Stockholm and Goteborg is insanity camouflaged as pessimism. I'm worried that hospitals will be overwhelmed, which means that fatalities will be much higher than the actual covid-19 mortality rate assuming a functional health care system. A lot of people need oxygen and other treatment, but are not in risk of dying if they get that. If hospital collapse, a lot of unnecessary death occurs - people die at home - and spread become much quicker. On top of that, there's non-covid related activity being impacted - such as traffic accidents, cancer, appendicitis, etc. In the scenario where healthcare is not overwhelmed, mortality rates are going to be nowhere near those numbers. I would guess 0,25% to 2,5% in that case, depending how the immunological profile is and the general flow/length of the epidemic. Essentially I am not seeing a continuum of mortality from 0,25% to 10%. It' about the breaking point and the rather terrible consequences of hitting it. That's where my pessimism stems from. Not some insane notion that this is airborne AIDS or whatever. PederP fucked around with this message at 16:22 on Apr 16, 2020 |
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Apr 16, 2020 16:19
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