|
Harrow posted:One thing that this remake did and I didn't really expect is... gently caress, I really don't want Aerith to die this time. And at the same time, I do. But I don't. But...  I don’t think there’s a right answer to Aerith, and I think that any answers there are will be different from player to player. If they change her fate, poo poo, this game might end up calling for multiple routes. No wonder these devs were stressed out.
|
#
?
Apr 16, 2020 17:41
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 31, 2024 09:52 |
|
|
I don't think they would have taken this particular twist on the remake if everyone didn't already know that Aeris was gonna die. It's taken what was an inevitability and made it the biggest unanswered question for Part 2.
|
|
#
?
Apr 16, 2020 17:41
|
|
|
I always thought a straight remake that just told us things we already knew would be pretty dull, so I liked that some things were being expanded upon and we might see some changes along the way. I have really mixed feelings about Aerith surviving or not though, since her death is like the number one iconic gaming moment ever. On the one hand, we've already seen it, but on the other you have to count on them coming up with a story to replace it that doesn't just feel like a poor cousin. For now I think I'll just choose to be excited about the possibilities though. Worst case scenario, just spending more time with these characters is going to be a lot of fun, even if the plot ends up being dumb. The ending felt super abrupt, and I wish Sephiroth hadn't just jumped out of nowhere (okay, out of visions) and taken over. I really have no idea wtf anyone who didn't play the original is going to think about all of this, but I guess even people who didn't play it probably have some general idea of who he is and that Aerith dies.
|
|
#
?
Apr 16, 2020 17:43
|
|
|
Sinteres posted:I always thought a straight remake that just told us things we already knew would be pretty dull, so I liked that some things were being expanded upon and we might see some changes along the way. I have really mixed feelings about Aerith surviving or not though, since her death is like the number one iconic gaming moment ever. On the one hand, we've already seen it, but on the other you have to count on them coming up with a story to replace it that doesn't just feel like a poor cousin. For now I think I'll just choose to be excited about the possibilities though. Worst case scenario, just spending more time with these characters is going to be a lot of fun, even if the plot ends up being dumb. The game definitely feels more a companion piece to the original FF7 than its own game in that regard.
|
|
#
?
Apr 16, 2020 17:44
|
|
|
Anyway I still like this game and the final chapter was dorky in the anime kind of way, but it ruined nothing and the Sephiroth part was perfectly fine and rather hype - I don’t consider the post-Whisper boss content to be dorky. People are scared because change can be scary. Hell, that anxiety is like, a large chunk of Aerith’s character in the ending.
|
|
#
?
Apr 16, 2020 17:45
|
|
|
Pollyanna posted:I genuinely think people are projecting their own fears onto the ending. I mean, I get it, I also want to see the original story borne out in a modern AAA game, but nothing says we won’t get that, and I for one am excited to see new and extended parts of the story. I don't think they'd have gone to the trouble of including the Whispers at all if they were just going to expand on the original story in the same way that this part of the remake does. They didn't need the Whispers as a metaphorical "free yourself from the original FFVII story" fight to do things like add completely new characters like Roche, new events like the Chapter 4 mission with Jessie, Biggs, and Wedge, new plot and setting elements like exploring the lab under Sector 7, or even totally redoing Wall Market (and massively improving and already-beloved scene in the process). All of those things could've been part of this remake without anyone but the most purist of idiot fans being upset at their inclusion. Even things like throwing in a Jenova fight a lot earlier was totally cool. And again, all of those things happen without the Whispers intervening or being a part of it at all. What the Whispers do is prevent really big plot diversions, like Cloud killing Reno, the group being fast enough to save Sector 7, Hojo spilling the beans about Cloud's past far too early, and Barret dying. The Whispers being gone means massive twists like that are now on the table, and also things have changed significantly enough that Zack might well be alive this time. It's certainly possible the rest of the remake will diverge only slightly more than this part does, but I don't think they'd have gone to the trouble of making this whole "defy destiny" finale if that's all they were going to do. We're in for some very significant changes from here onward.
|
|
#
?
Apr 16, 2020 17:46
|
|
|
Ohtsam posted:The game definitely feels more a companion piece to the original FF7 than its own game in that regard. You can’t outright replace the original, so it has to be a companion piece no matter what.
|
|
#
?
Apr 16, 2020 17:47
|
|
|
I expected that we'd be facing off against Sephiroth in some capacity for this game because it's a remake and the next game is at least 3 years away, of course they're gonna give the fans a Seph fight. As an encounter though he was kind of a pushover, especially compared to uh... those 7 dogs in Chapter 17.
|
|
#
?
Apr 16, 2020 17:47
|
|
|
exquisite tea posted:I expected that we'd be facing off against Sephiroth in some capacity for this game because it's a remake and the next game is at least 3 years away, of course they're gonna give the fans a Seph fight. As an encounter though he was kind of a pushover, especially compared to uh... those 7 dogs in Chapter 17. I don't think I'm in love with this version of One Wingled Angel (though I'll have plenty of time for it to grow on me), but at least we'll get one or two more stabs at it. Pointless speculation, but if Cloud dies (saving Aerith?) and Zack replaces him, I don't think I'll like that at all. I guess nobody else would either though, so it's hard to imagine that happening.
|
|
#
?
Apr 16, 2020 17:49
|
|
|
I still think the people who say “Oh yeah, 99% of the people playing this game already know the full plot of original FF7” are completely loving wrong. I can’t tell you how many people that just I know I know that have never touched FF7 have jumped into this game.
|
|
#
?
Apr 16, 2020 17:52
|
|
|
Harrow posted:I don't think they'd have gone to the trouble of including the Whispers at all if they were just going to expand on the original story in the same way that this part of the remake does. They didn't need the Whispers as a metaphorical "free yourself from the original FFVII story" fight to do things like add completely new characters like Roche, new events like the Chapter 4 mission with Jessie, Biggs, and Wedge, new plot and setting elements like exploring the lab under Sector 7, or even totally redoing Wall Market (and massively improving and already-beloved scene in the process). All of those things could've been part of this remake without anyone but the most purist of idiot fans being upset at their inclusion. Even things like throwing in a Jenova fight a lot earlier would've been totally cool. A lot of people already take the minor changes like Wall Market, Avalanche surviving, and the extra Shinra dungeon to be major plot diversions. I’m sure there’s people upset about Sephiroth “showing up too early” out there. quote:The Whispers being gone means massive twists like that are now on the table, and also things have changed significantly enough that Zack might well be alive this time. They’re on the table, but they have not borne out yet, and we’re not really sure where on the table they are anyway. Mordiceius posted:I still think the people who say “Oh yeah, 99% of the people playing this game already know the full plot of original FF7” are completely loving wrong. Genuinely curious, what do they think of it?
|
|
#
?
Apr 16, 2020 17:53
|
|
|
Sinteres posted:I don't think I'm in love with this version of One Wingled Angel (though I'll have plenty of time for it to grow on me), but at least we'll get one or two more stabs at it. Most dramatic way to handle it is that Aerith doesn't initially die where she did originally and the group constantly struggles to find ways to handle things without her being sacrificed, but she has to do it anyway in the end. (My guess is attempting to stop broke brained cloud from handing over the black materia).
|
|
#
?
Apr 16, 2020 17:54
|
|
|
Mordiceius posted:I still think the people who say “Oh yeah, 99% of the people playing this game already know the full plot of original FF7” are completely loving wrong. I don't think people know the whole plot (I forgot huge chunks of it even though I played it), but I assume most people have at least heard of Cloud and Sephiroth and Aerith.
|
|
#
?
Apr 16, 2020 17:54
|
|
|
Barret is now soft-spoken and collects Gil for the swear jar.
|
|
#
?
Apr 16, 2020 17:54
|
|
|
My viewpoint is that I would appreciate either approach. If they had just remade the original game with a few bonuses, I would have been happy. I am also happy at the prospect of an essentially new game with some of my favorite characters and locales. I tried to go into the remake with no expectations, and that has made for a wild ride. I am curious, however, how this game will serve as an introduction to new characters. I agree that Sephiroth doesn't really earn his final boss appearance. Heck, I was lost enough having not played the other spin-offs like Crisis Core. I had to read up on Zack and Cloud's return to Midgar and its significance. Still, 10/10.
|
|
#
?
Apr 16, 2020 17:54
|
|
|
Ohtsam posted:Most dramatic way to handle it is that Aerith doesn't initially die where she did originally and the group constantly struggles to find ways to handle things without her being sacrificed, but she has to do it anyway in the end. (My guess is attempting to stop broke brained cloud from handing over the black materia). In that case, why change it if she dies anyway? Kinda like reverse-Barret in this one.
|
|
#
?
Apr 16, 2020 17:55
|
|
|
Moreover, having Aerith die as part of a heroic sacrifice is the exact opposite of the reason/theme behind killing her the first go round. Her death was meant to be random and senseless.
|
|
#
?
Apr 16, 2020 17:58
|
|
|
DeathSandwich posted:I mean, I get Tifa's reasoning. I know people who've gone off to war from friends who were in Iraq/Afghanistan to a great uncle who was a WW2 vet. The common thread was that none of them really wanted to talk about their experiences because it's traumatic, even years later. Wars are traumatic and people with that on their soul want to move past it and not always be forced to ruminate on it. I think it's understandable that she's not wanting to push him on it and bring back something dark and unpleasant. Hell, she already told Cloud that he scares her when you go to rescue Johnny that first day after the first reactor bombing. What makes Tifa so compelling is that her actions and behavior are pre-eminently understandable and sympathetic, but they are not helpful. This is because Cloud is getting worse, not better, by her continued placating of him, and it isn't just the symptoms he demonstrates but outright lies about things that should be in shared memory. In OG FF7 this is not even subtext, just straight up text: while the game doesn't beat you over the head with it, it is extremely obvious that Tifa knew Cloud was lying to the rest of the party immediately during the Kalm exposition dump, and she does absolutely nothing about it for nearly the entire runtime of the rest of the game. You can read it as selfishness on her part, perhaps - there was a slapfight going on in-thread that brings up the tenuous connection between Tifa and Cloud, so maybe Tifa is less into Cloud than she is projecting onto him the hope that her past isn't pure catastrophe and ruin - but you can also read it as Tifa being unequipped to really help Cloud's worsening mental state even if she truly means well. It makes the choice that Tifa makes in Mideel feel less cheap or overtly "now the OTP has to get together" in that she takes responsibility in the effort to piece Cloud's memories and identity back together, where before she was perfectly content letting him make poo poo up as long as that meant he would stick around. Tifa is one of the best-written characters in any videogame I've ever played, and part of that lies in her inability to come to terms with her past (and thus with Cloud) right away. She lost her family, her hometown, and her childhood, so it makes sense that she would brook any amount of bullshit to keep the one remaining fragment of better times, however fragile it might be, intact and present in her life. Her character arc is satisfying precisely because she learns to both accept the past and move on from it, even if it could be painful or costly to do so, because the alternative is living in a series of deceptions that grow increasingly less steady the more you do it. exquisite tea posted:What I didn't get about the ending is why Sephiroth turns around and gives Cloud the whole "we're not so different, you and I" speech after defying the flow of fate. It seems like Seph was really in favor of destiny since he'd been riding the force ghosts all game. Maybe he was able to see deeper into the future and didn't like what he saw? Vino posted:Why the hell did we fight Sephiroth? What was the point? They had no reason to fight. It's like there was a board room meeting in Square four years ago where someone said "We can't make an FF7 game where Cloud and Sephiroth don't fight" and everyone was like "yea good point" and nobody actually thought about the implications. Sephiroth isn't special anymore, he's just game candy now that Square hands out to its fans every so often. quote:Who is this game for? Die-hard fans will want the same game but better, but you lied to them so good luck getting them to buy the sequel. New players have no idea what's going on because nothing gets explained after the fight with Hojo and the Kalm/Sephiroth sequence hasn't happened. Who the gently caress is the Cloud with black hair? What's Jenova? What does Reunion mean? So good luck getting new players to play it either. I'm sure some people will like it but I don't understand why Square is willing to take such big chances with their audience on something they spent so much money on. Seems phenominally stupid, why not just make the original over again and rake in the cash? What's more, I think that you have to applaud the effort, in my estimation. They could absolutely have left the story untouched and the battle system turn-based and just updated the graphics of a game from 1997 and it would have made eleventy zillion dollars, but they deliberately tried to be more ambitious than that, and I respect that decision immensely. I'm not sure I like or agree with the changes that were made, or that there aren't parts that I feel could be improved, but that they tried to change what a remake is or could be is incredibly ballsy. I can give props for that. quote:I play a lot of League and God of War and even Horizon Zero Dawn, and those games train me to look for enemy animations and telegraphs and press dodge and block at the right times. This is Good Design (tm) for Fun Games (tm). FF7 on the other hand seems to be in the school of "It doesn't matter that you pressed dodge, the enemy is going to hit you anyway." Dodge is basically a useless button most of the time. The way to play the battle sequences seems to be if your character is about to get hit, you press the directional arrows and go to a different character. Once I settled into that rhythm I started having a lot of fun bouncing a lot between characters. Go to Barret, triangle, L1 + O, go to Tifa, triangle, L1 + X, go to Cloud, triangle, L1 + X, etc etc. But I can't help think there's something obvious about dodge that I missed.
|
|
#
?
Apr 16, 2020 17:59
|
|
|
Sinteres posted:I don't think I'm in love with this version of One Wingled Angel (though I'll have plenty of time for it to grow on me), but at least we'll get one or two more stabs at it. My pointless speculation will be that Zack dies saving Aerith, rather than Cloud. It seems more on point with his character arc. But really, I think Zack is going to be the biggest wildcard in everything going forward from here, because it really does depend on how Nomura wants to integrate him. Is he hot on the trail of the gang, trying to find his girlfriend and unfuck Cloud's psychosis? Is he lost in other affairs that have grabbed his attention since getting to Midgar? Is he going to link up with that one Turks gal from Crisis Core and do some Mercenary poo poo? Is he still recovering from his grevious wounds from the end of Crisis Core? Is he going to run into Avalanche and be hit on mercilessly by Horny Jessie? Wait 2+ years and find out!
|
|
#
?
Apr 16, 2020 17:59
|
|
|
i want to see the story of cloud and zack in midgar more than a continuation of the main plot. cloud with the power of a super soldier but with zack present to keep his delusions in check sounds neat as heck. would he even still use a giant sword? they'd even still have an in with avalanche. also, while zack is way better at being zack than cloud is, he's also a legit soldier first class and that comes with all sorts of nasty jenova baggage. it'd be nice if they at least did an ova about this.
|
|
#
?
Apr 16, 2020 18:03
|
|
|
I'm not sure if Aeris is going to die in the next game now but I'm also pretty sure that someone is. But in order for that part to hit with the same emotional resonance, whoever dies has got to be on the same level as her in their significance to the story. So I don't think Zack is a worthy trade-off in that regard because not as many FF fans know about him and he's not as important in the general FFVII consciousness as Cloud, Barret, Tifa, Aeris.
|
|
#
?
Apr 16, 2020 18:05
|
|
|
Hope Zach comes across Reno and Reno does his rank check schtick ala the church and starts laughing only to get counter called-out since Zach is legit For real, I love the angle they've taken with the Turks. poo poo is fantastic
|
|
#
?
Apr 16, 2020 18:07
|
|
|
exquisite tea posted:I'm not sure if Aeris is going to die in the next game now but I'm also pretty sure that someone is. But in order for that part to hit with the same emotional resonance, whoever dies has got to be on the same level as her in their significance to the story. So I don't think Zack is a worthy trade-off in that regard because not as many FF fans know about him and he's not as important in the general FFVII consciousness as Cloud, Barret, Tifa, Aeris. I really hope this does not happen.
|
|
#
?
Apr 16, 2020 18:09
|
|
|
Harrow posted:Since I've gone over the negative side of my reaction, here's the positive side: I agree with this. The characters are what carry this game and they've done an out of this world job on them thus far. Flopsy fucked around with this message at 18:14 on Apr 16, 2020 |
|
#
?
Apr 16, 2020 18:12
|
|
|
guts and bolts posted:That's why upthread somewhere (moves fast) my conjecture is that, for it hit home hard enough, someone else in the party is going to die, and Aerith is going to blame herself for it because it should have been her who ate it and now someone else is gone and why didn't she just let the Whispers keep fate on track, what a terrible world. The smart money says that, in such a scenario and given the surprisingly expanded girlbonding that happens in FF7R and given that it needs to be someone Important who dies, Tifa will bite it instead and you'll be left wondering if this new timeline is actually an improvement at all. What a low point. Curtain falls on the middle game of the mini-series. That seems like the most obvious change that would still have people talking about it for years yeah. I don't think Barret would hit quite as hard since Cloud doesn't have as personal a connection with him as he does with Aerith and Tifa, though obviously they can pull on heartstrings with Marlene. Killing Cloud would be the biggest shock of all, but seems too risky since people would loving hate it and legitimately might skip the third game.
|
|
#
?
Apr 16, 2020 18:14
|
|
|
guts and bolts posted:That's why upthread somewhere (moves fast) my conjecture is that, for it hit home hard enough, someone else in the party is going to die, and Aerith is going to blame herself for it because it should have been her who ate it and now someone else is gone and why didn't she just let the Whispers keep fate on track, what a terrible world. The smart money says that, in such a scenario and given the surprisingly expanded girlbonding that happens in FF7R and given that it needs to be someone Important who dies, Tifa will bite it instead and you'll be left wondering if this new timeline is actually an improvement at all. What a low point. Curtain falls on the middle game of the mini-series. It might be Vincent just because he's such a fan favorite and has so much history with Hojo and Sephiroth. Not saying that for sure but just putting it out there.
|
|
#
?
Apr 16, 2020 18:15
|
|
|
RIP Red XIII
|
|
#
?
Apr 16, 2020 18:16
|
|
|
Sinteres posted:That seems like the most obvious change that would still have people talking about it for years yeah. I don't think Barret would hit quite as hard since Cloud doesn't have as personal a connection with him as he does with Aerith and Tifa, though obviously they can pull on heartstrings with Marlene. Killing Cloud would be the biggest shock of all, but seems too risky since people would loving hate it and legitimately might skip the third game. Having Tifa die instead of Aerith reeks of "BUT THE BUTTERFLY EFFECT/FUTURE REFUSED TO CHANGE!" downbeat note that would mark the low point for the heroes in a mirror of the original Aerith-gets-stabbed sequence. It makes a certain degree of lazy sense. Flopsy posted:It might be Vincent just because he's such a fan favorite and has so much history with Hojo and Sephiroth. Not saying that for sure but just putting it out there. I personally hope nobody loving dies and the team gets to create a golden ending because I'm a huge sap who loves these characters, but I'd be lying if I said I wasn't at least a little worried about Best Girl in THE UNKNOWN JOURNEY. guts and bolts fucked around with this message at 18:25 on Apr 16, 2020 |
|
#
?
Apr 16, 2020 18:22
|
|
|
Pollyanna posted:Genuinely curious, what do they think of it? Generally? The new players that I've talked to have responded with enjoyment of the character beats but general confusion about the overall story. Which then leads them to going online and reading summaries of the original game. Then further confusion why the events aren't lining up.
|
|
#
?
Apr 16, 2020 18:22
|
|
|
Sinteres posted:I don't think people know the whole plot (I forgot huge chunks of it even though I played it), but I assume most people have at least heard of Cloud and Sephiroth and Aerith. My girlfriend has been watching my playthrough and this is about where her foreknowledge was. She knew about Cloud and Sephiroth from just having hung out with people who play video games and having gone to anime cons and poo poo, and she knew they were from a Final Fantasy game where Cloud is the hero and Sephiroth is the villain. That's it. So it's been pretty interesting to see her reactions to things. She had a "wait what the gently caress" audible reaction when Cait Sith showed up in the plate collapse FMV which was hilarious. One weird thing is that now I don't really know what counts as a spoiler or not anymore. I've been very careful trying not to spoil her on things that happen post-Midgar in the original--especially Aerith's death, since by some miracle she doesn't know about that already and Aerith is by far her favorite character--but now we don't actually know if any of that will happen.
|
|
#
?
Apr 16, 2020 18:24
|
|
|
It doesn't have to be a party member dying necessarily. Like maybe they fail to save Midgar from that one Weapon this time around.
|
|
#
?
Apr 16, 2020 18:24
|
|
|
Hell, I know of at least one person who was not happy that they used the overworld theme when you first entered Sector 7 during the day, saying that the theme should be earned for leaving Midgar and that it doesn't fit Midgar because it's a scummy hosed up place and that it therefore shouldn't be used there. I ended up seeing the complete opposite, that its presence was meant to evoke the fact that even in Midgar there was still some good and some leftover life of the planet in some way. Everyone wants something different in any number of small ways and there's no way to appease everyone, so just make a good story. Someone's gonna get pissed no matter what, it's not worth catering to them. Mordiceius posted:Generally? The new players that I've talked to have responded with enjoyment of the character beats but general confusion about the overall story. Which then leads them to going online and reading summaries of the original game. Then further confusion why the events aren't lining up. I think the thing I dislike the most about this game, aside from the combat and battle design being kinda jank, is that it's called "Remake" and not "Reunion" or something. It's not a remake, remakes are 1:1.
|
|
#
?
Apr 16, 2020 18:24
|
|
|
Whoever dies will be the one you went to first in the sewers, this cannot be changed or overwritten.
|
|
#
?
Apr 16, 2020 18:25
|
|
|
It would be subversive as hell to have the exact lead up to the stabbing scene but seph just veers to the front and lands on cloud instead.
|
|
#
?
Apr 16, 2020 18:25
|
|
|
I want a part 2 where Barret gets to save Dyne.
|
|
#
?
Apr 16, 2020 18:26
|
|
|
Harrow posted:One weird thing is that now I don't really know what counts as a spoiler or not anymore. I've been very careful trying not to spoil her on things that happen post-Midgar in the original--especially Aerith's death, since by some miracle she doesn't know about that already and Aerith is by far her favorite character--but now we don't actually know if any of that will happen. Awesome, now both of you can share in seeing new things happen! Cao Ni Ma posted:It would be subversive as hell to have the exact lead up to the stabbing scene but seph just veers to the front and lands on cloud instead. Yes, but now we are expecting it. Actually, people are expecting two things now: 1. Aerith dies during the Holy scene, 2. Aerith does not die during the Holy scene So, like, gently caress.
|
|
#
?
Apr 16, 2020 18:26
|
|
|
Barret could be a good candidate because you get most of his story by that point and you already have another gun guy with melee tendencies
|
|
#
?
Apr 16, 2020 18:26
|
|
|
Why is it that when someone likes a game they can express so in less than two sentences, but when they don't like it they have to write a manifesto like jfc is it the quarantine or are you always like this
|
|
#
?
Apr 16, 2020 18:27
|
|
|
Pollyanna posted:I think the thing I dislike the most about this game, aside from the combat and battle design being kinda jank, is that it's called "Remake" and not "Reunion" or something. It's not a remake, remakes are 1:1. Remakes aren't necessarily 1:1, though, even in other media. There are a lot of ways to remake something so it isn't necessarily an inaccurate word to use here. Going forward, though, it might be, which could be why there's no "Episode 1" or "Part 1" in the title. The next games will probably have different subtitles. (I'm still hoping they all start with "Re" and then the last part is called "Reunion.")
|
|
#
?
Apr 16, 2020 18:27
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 31, 2024 09:52 |
|
|
Cao Ni Ma posted:It would be subversive as hell to have the exact lead up to the stabbing scene but seph just veers to the front and lands on cloud instead. It'll be like Seph's first scene in advent children but with Aerith blocking the attack then we get a combat variation of Aerith theme. Also she has the other wing why not.
|
|
#
?
Apr 16, 2020 18:28
|
|
