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Harrow posted:As others have pointed out, Square does seem to be a lot more willing to take risks with Final Fantasy than you'd think. Like, take a look at how wildly each installment changes gameplay-wise each time compared to something like, say, Dragon Quest. If Square was really risk-averse with Final Fantasy, they wouldn't change up the gameplay formula once they found one that people seemed to really like and that continued to be successful, but every game from FFX onward has vastly changed the entire core of the combat system. They also go for weird, sometimes even alienating settings (FFXIII is a big one), take crazy structural risks, etc. I mean, hell, I mentioned it earlier, Look at Final Fantasy 14 - a game they took a huge risk on and failed. It was received so poorly out the gate that they shut it down, sacked the head developer, and brought in a new guy to completely retool it from the ground up. They could of ended there but then they made the stories of Heavensward and Shadowbringers some of the best stories I've seen in an RPG, let alone a FF game.
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Apr 16, 2020 21:41
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Vino posted:Then the businesspeople weren't doing their jobs, which is to find a way to make a game that artists are passionate about making without alienating their audience. Totally possible to do both, and they didn't. Hi, I'm their audience and was not alienated and in fact am more excited for the next installment than I ever would have been if they hadn't done what they did.
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Apr 16, 2020 21:41
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guts and bolts posted:I'm not sure I've seen the exact take that the Whispers represent even anything bad. I don't think they do. I think it's pretty explicit that Destiny here is an allegory for what fan expectation is for a Final Fantasy 7 remake, and that if the development team wanted to try something different with it then those expectations would be violated; the fans of the original who do not want to see change implicitly push back on this and course-correct for what they want to happen (the same thing that has already happened in '97 FF7). By destroying that influence the party (and the devs) are free to do something new and different, which could be better than what we had for sure, but carries with it the risk that it could be worse. I think this is barely a "theory" at this point and more like explicit text. Yeah its absolutely also a metaphorical storytelling device and IMO one that's pretty effective, but it isn't solely metaphorical, they are also literal time ghosts and the game tells you who they are. And the next game will probably continue to deal with them in that capacity, even if their metaphorical role has served its purpose. tbh it is mostly this line that I think is a loving gross, bad take, but not an uncommon one guts and bolts posted:The Whispers are literally a stand-in for purist fans who insist that things must be the way they were always meant to be
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Apr 16, 2020 21:41
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Vino posted:Then the businesspeople weren't doing their jobs, which is to find a way to make a game that artists are passionate about making without alienating their audience. Totally possible to do both, and they didn't. You're either incapable of looking at things from outside your own perspective or just trolling at this point.
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Apr 16, 2020 21:42
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Harrow posted:Things are different this time and characters are getting visions of the future. We don't know why yet, but they're there, and any reading of the characters and their motivations can't ignore that. It's also clear that these are just flashes of small parts of major events, not the entire manuscript of FF7 (PSX) plot elements.
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Apr 16, 2020 21:43
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Harrow posted:The thing about the Whispers is that they aren't wrong to do what they do. They represent the will of the Planet to make sure that things turn out okay. If everything goes exactly how the Whispers want, the Planet will be saved and the characters will go on to live their lives, and while they have suffered painful losses and one of them gave her life, the others are more complete, better people than they were before their adventure. If everyone just let the Whispers be, everything would turn out fine. See, I don't agree that this is the will of the 'Planet' here. All that's said and we know is that they're protecting Destiny and the threads of time and space but that doesn't necessarily mean that this is being done by the Planet.
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Apr 16, 2020 21:44
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MoaM posted:It's also clear that these are just flashes of small parts of major events, not the entire manuscript of FF7 (PSX) plot elements. At least for Cloud, yeah. We don't really know how much Aerith or Sephiroth know yet, though I'd guess Sephiroth knows more than anyone else at this point. Zaa Boogie posted:See, I don't agree that this is the will of the 'Planet' here. All that's said and we know is that they're protecting Destiny and the threads of time and space but that doesn't necessarily mean that this is being done by the Planet. Doesn't the game explicitly say they're manifested by the Planet? I could be misremembering.
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Apr 16, 2020 21:44
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homeless snail posted:The text is that they're Cloud, Barret, and Tifa from the future, like they all but say that in their assessments. I think it's a little more abstract than that. Rather than them from the future, it's the concept of their destiny that you're killing. That might be what you're getting at, and in the end, there's not much distinction, but thought I'd throw that out.
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Apr 16, 2020 21:44
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Just Andi Now posted:I think it's a little more abstract than that. Rather than them from the future, it's the concept of their destiny that you're killing. That might be what you're getting at, and in the end, there's not much distinction, but thought I'd throw that out. Yeah I agree that they aren't literally those characters, but they were clearly meant to represent them.
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Apr 16, 2020 21:45
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Yeah sure probably not Literal Time Travel, but representative of their state probably after the events of FFVII considering theres no Aerith ghostHarrow posted:Doesn't the game explicitly say they're manifested by the Planet? I could be misremembering.
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Apr 16, 2020 21:46
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I mean people still call XV a failure when it was like the fastest selling entry in the series or something so people love to just hate post unfounded opinions like they're facts
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Apr 16, 2020 21:46
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homeless snail posted:Yeah sure probably not Literal Time Travel, but representative of their state probably after the events of FFVII considering theres no Aerith ghost Another possible reason for no Aerith ghost is that her destiny wasn't averted 
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Apr 16, 2020 21:48
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Harrow posted:You misunderstand. I didn't say that I have some sort of faith that these mysteries will be answered in a satisfactory or good way. It's just, they are mysteries that have been set up and seem to be major plot points this time. Will they fumble it? I dunno, maybe. Just like I have no idea why Sephiroth, Aerith, and Cloud seem to be able to know the future to varying degrees, I also don't know if the writers are going to pull this off. I'm just saying, this is clearly the path they're taking. I mean thinking on it Sephiroth one way or the other is essentially Jenova, an interplanetary parasite that infects a planet to the apparent end of devouring it's lifestream or something. Such a predator could reasonably have means of circumventing defense systems like the Whispers. If the original game could be considered the planets ultimately acceptable outcome then It's not impossible Sephiroth could have deciphered it's game plan as part of his extended stay in the lifestream and is now reacting accordingly. Aerith could having understanding of this future due to her status as an Cetra. Cloud is having flashes of it either due to his Hojo inflicted connection to Sephiroth intentionally or otherwise. Doesn't quite explain Zack but hey...
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Apr 16, 2020 21:48
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Ah yeah, here's the "will of the planet" line: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3GQFC1K-kk&t=249s Red XIII says that the Whispers follow the flow of time, which is "the will of the planet itself." Nothing else he says about the Whispers is wrong so 
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Apr 16, 2020 21:48
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I shittalked this game ever since the remake was announced having zero faith in Nomura and Squeenix in general but goddamn am I just eating all this delicious crow now because this game is incredible and I’m between not wanting to rush too much to have more game time (chapter 14 now) but also immediately wanting the next part now now now goddamn I wanna meet Cid and goddamn Yuffie is probably gonna be way more fleshed out since everyone seems to be prejudiced as hell towards Wutai. I really doubt Aerith will die any time soon since her big deal is that she believes the future isn’t set in stone and the whole deal of this game seems to be fighting destiny, but I’ll be sad if somebody else has to die in her place because all these characters are fantastic and so fleshed our now. Barrett is seriously my favorite character, the dude is just charismatic and intense and also a gigantic goofball dad
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Apr 16, 2020 21:48
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Asema posted:look i've given you a lot of poo poo and some of that may have been far greater ribbing than you deserve but I just want you to know this is the most tone deaf thing you've posted It's why I've never bothered to directly reply to him. He's dead set on being a piss baby about this. Also the whole "if it doesn't religiously stick to canon it doesn't count attitude" is childish as gently caress, take your rear end to reddit and vent spleen there.
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Apr 16, 2020 21:50
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every single person who is super mad about the terrible transgressions this game makes is going to buy the next one anyway.
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Apr 16, 2020 21:50
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Calaveron posted:I really doubt Aerith will die any time soon [...] This Remake are A Song of Ice and Fire. Nomura is GRRM; the never-ending wait.
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Apr 16, 2020 21:52
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Harrow posted:Ah yeah, here's the "will of the planet" line: and Aerith is like idk, rheumatoid arthritis, okay perfect analogy put a bow on it
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Apr 16, 2020 21:52
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Harrow posted:I know I've said that I don't want this to turn into Chrono Cross but if the very end of the last part involves going to the Edge of Creation and killing Jenova outside of time to end this once and for all that would be pretty rad You know...Marle is in the game. 
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Apr 16, 2020 21:52
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Marle even has Marle's hairstyle, if she got old and stopped giving a poo poo about it
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Apr 16, 2020 21:55
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morallyobjected posted:I mean people still call XV a failure when it was like the fastest selling entry in the series or something so people love to just hate post unfounded opinions like they're facts 15 was *half* of an alright game. The best parts was all the boy-band-road-trip hijinks and then you get on a boat and everything turns to wet dogshit. It's one of those games where you can see where they just straight up ran out of time and had to start taking a hatchet to it to get it out the door. Had the last couple of chapters not been such an extreme shift in tone and content I would of probably been a lot more kind to it.
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Apr 16, 2020 21:56
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The Final Fantasy brand is not a weak one either, the games will always sell like hotcakes.DeathChicken posted:Marle even has Marle's hairstyle, if she got old and stopped giving a poo poo about it Chrono Trigger Remake incoming....
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Apr 16, 2020 21:56
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MoaM posted:Chrono Trigger Remake incoming.... That would be amazing.
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Apr 16, 2020 21:58
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It'll never happen; we're more likely to see a DQ-reboot. Chrono Trigger was basically the dream-team JRPG...it's kinda like recreating the classic Chicago Bulls line-up or Citizen Kane.
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Apr 16, 2020 21:58
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Harrow posted:I figured his reason for killing Barret was that he knew it wouldn't stick. He knew the Whispers would undo it and the characters would see and understand just how on-rails their fates really are. It was a demonstration--he never intended Barret to stay dead because he knew he wouldn't. Yeah that was my interpretation as well, he wanted to show the characters that they had no freedom whatsoever, and in so doing hopefully make them rebel against capital-D Destiny. guts and bolts posted:FF7 has always lived or died by its characters; the original localization was horrifyingly bad and the plot is somehow both pretentious and incredibly, incredibly dumb for large stretches, though I'd argue there are some pretty underrated elements there (Jenova being an alien world-eater serving as a sort of meta-callback to Chrono Trigger made me happy as a kid, and Cloud was the first unreliable narrator I'd ever seen in a video game, plus he was easy for angsty me to identify with and sympathize with). One thing I want to see is them really leaning into this, like, just making her into a completely bonkers inscrutable alien. When you look at what she was/did throughout the Compilation she's a horrific, bizarre, almost Lovecraftian entity, that spreads its own cells like a mind-controlling mutating virus, single-handedly wiped out most of the Ancients, and does stuff like have an eyeball in she titty. I'd absolutely love for them to go completely into that without restraint or restriction and take the original influences of The Thing up to 11. Which I guess we're probably going to get a good look at when we reach Helletic Hojo in glorious 32K. Like the bit after Meteor is summoned and even Barret goes "poo poo when you look at what we're up against even Shinra doesn't seem so bad" and yeah he corrects that opinion immediately, but it drives home the kind of unfathomable danger she poses. I want the rest of the series to build her up such that the WEAPONs seem like entirely reasonable and if anything somewhat restrained responses on the part of the Planet.
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Apr 16, 2020 22:00
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So just for the hell of putting it out there what exactly are y'all hoping for in the next game? Plot wise, character wise, etc.
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Apr 16, 2020 22:01
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Flopsy posted:So just for the hell of putting it out there what exactly are y'all hoping for in the next game? Plot wise, character wise, etc. I'm hoping they will expand on the whole Wutai section of the game and I think they will given all the setup here. And hopefully tie more of Yuffie's character into that plotline so that she doesn't feel so ancillary to the main story.
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Apr 16, 2020 22:03
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Harrow posted:Ah yeah, here's the "will of the planet" line: Ah, that slipped my mind in my joy in everything while finishing the game. Okay, I pretty much agree with everything you said! Flopsy posted:So just for the hell of putting it out there what exactly are y'all hoping for in the next game? Plot wise, character wise, etc. I'm super curious about what will go down with Wutai this time around. I feel like everything was setup so that it's impossible for that to be missable this time. Also added Hojo fuckery doing the same for Vincent.
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Apr 16, 2020 22:06
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I was hoping for the Demon Wall fight to be good and the Kalm flashback to be well directed / voice-acted, but those things are essentially out the window now. I'm basically just here for Cid and the Tifa / Aerith / Cloud interactions. Gold Saucer will also be fun; they'll obviously make drastic changes to Chocobo Racing. Be nice to have a card game, too.
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Apr 16, 2020 22:07
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exquisite tea posted:I'm hoping they will expand on the whole Wutai section of the game and I think they will given all the setup here. And hopefully tie more of Yuffie's character into that plotline so that she doesn't feel so ancillary to the main story. Well the war with Wutai seems ongoing this time so I could definitely see her having a larger roll to play outside of wanting to reclaim her peoples honor. Maybe she's stealing materia for the actual rebellion. Also looking forward to Shinra mansion being extra creepy this time around.
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Apr 16, 2020 22:09
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guts and bolts posted:I'm saying that Barret probably has a vested interest in FF7R in fighting Sephiroth considering he got loving killed by him. Red XIII isn't developed enough in this game to know what his deal is, precisely, but the core 4 now all have deeply personal reasons for wanting to oppose him. It is a strictly better set up than, as you describe, "trust me no." Barret and Cloud got stabbed. Aeris and Tifa though? It's not revenge, Barret is alive. Something something the planet? I don't understand your argument about their deeply personal reasons. "Trust me no" was what the original had, and they didn't fight in the original, so it checks out to me. guts and bolts posted:The bet is, precisely, that they can improve the original. You seem to believe sight-almost-unseen that they cannot. A pretty arrogant bet, yea? I mean the game regularly tops the best of all time lists. It's not sight-unseen; I played the whole remake and I don't believe the quality of the writing of the parts they added is as good as the quality of the original. I want them to do better as much as anyone else, but I don't see the data. Moreover they're diving headfirst into multiple dimensions/timelines, which is really difficult to pull off well in the first place. guts and bolts posted:I'm not sure I've seen the exact take that the Whispers represent even anything bad. I don't think they do. I think it's pretty explicit that Destiny here is an allegory for what fan expectation is for a Final Fantasy 7 remake, and that if the development team wanted to try something different with it then those expectations would be violated; the fans of the original who do not want to see change implicitly push back on this and course-correct for what they want to happen (the same thing that has already happened in '97 FF7). By destroying that influence the party (and the devs) are free to do something new and different, which could be better than what we had for sure, but carries with it the risk that it could be worse. I think this is barely a "theory" at this point and more like explicit text. Agreed, explicit text. Other than the implicit criticism of their fan base, I agree with all they're doing here, if they handle fan expectations properly, which they didn't. MoaM posted:I wouldn't be surprised if there was a focus group poll that spooked some execs, consisting entirely of fans who are overly-attached to FF7's plot/characters. Sorry I don't understand, wouldn't this imply they wouldn't have done what they did? Just Andi Now posted:Hi, I'm their audience and was not alienated and in fact am more excited for the next installment than I ever would have been if they hadn't done what they did. Hi I'm also their audience and I was alienated. Sorry I didn't mean to under-represent you when I implied they would alienate their entire audience. That's obviously wrong. But it's still true they've alienated a lot. Sinteres posted:You're either incapable of looking at things from outside your own perspective or just trolling at this point. I'm sorry, I'm having this conversation in good faith and with best of intentions. I've been convinced on a few points. I'm not trying to troll.
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Apr 16, 2020 22:09
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Completely rewrite Cid and Sheera's relationship. Expand Wutai. Give Vincent something to actually do in the plot. FFVII Remake SPOILER THREAD - GHOST PROBLEMS
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Apr 16, 2020 22:09
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i'd like it if they abbreviated the kalm flashback a bit, saving the real meat of it until they actually get to the shinra mansion. i don't know how they'd make that long rear end flashback work as the opening of a game. i'd also like gold saucer to have many fun minigames. the original kind of sucked.
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Apr 16, 2020 22:11
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exquisite tea posted:I'm hoping they will expand on the whole Wutai section of the game and I think they will given all the setup here. And hopefully tie more of Yuffie's character into that plotline so that she doesn't feel so ancillary to the main story. I mean, they had to in the original since she was completely optional. was that the last FF game with optional characters? Quina was optional for a while, but you had to pick them up eventually I want to see Barret and Red XIII in the sailor outfits on the boat, and I want to see Gold Saucer in all its wonderful, gaudy glory. I hope they still have a bunch of lovely minigames. and I'm psyched for Cosmo Canyon and Wutai, cause those are two of my favourite locations in the original
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Apr 16, 2020 22:12
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I hope that regular encounter mechanics are explained a bit more eloquently next time around. I found myself enjoying boss fights more because their weaknesses were telegraphed by the in-battle flourishes. I might have trouble with them, but I rarely outright died to a boss encounter, which is just the right amount of spice imo. Meanwhile I'd regularly get murked by a pack of dogs. Assess does the job, but there's gotta be a smoother way to teach the player about enemy behaviors instead of reading a dossier. Perhaps taking a page from Mega Man and introducing enemies in isolation before hitting you with a pack of them. The 1v1's in the arenas/battle sims were pretty enlightening when they did this--I couldn't even appreciate half the behaviors in regular play because of how chaotic it can get.
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Apr 16, 2020 22:12
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Vino posted:Agreed, explicit text. Other than the implicit criticism of their fan base, I agree with all they're doing here, if they handle fan expectations properly, which they didn't. So, I really do have to ask in regards to this: What exactly would you call them 'handling fan expectations properly'?
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Apr 16, 2020 22:14
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morallyobjected posted:I mean, they had to in the original since she was completely optional. was that the last FF game with optional characters? Quina was optional for a while, but you had to pick them up eventually I want Roche to show up at the golden saucer and it turns out he's just the mini game king of the game.....also a love interest.
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Apr 16, 2020 22:15
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They'll put the original Final Fantasy 7 in as a Gold Saucer game. Sephiroth will hover over your shoulder the entire time. "Oh, you died to Carry Armor again. That's just like you....Cloud."
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Apr 16, 2020 22:15
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gimme the GOD drat candy posted:i'd like it if they abbreviated the kalm flashback a bit, saving the real meat of it until they actually get to the shinra mansion. i don't know how they'd make that long rear end flashback work as the opening of a game. Chopping it up would work well, yeah. They could have part of it as the opening, serving as a tutorial for anyone who's jumping into part 2 or needs a refresher, then end it before poo poo really goes wild and fill in the rest later on. Ms Adequate posted:One thing I want to see is them really leaning into this, like, just making her into a completely bonkers inscrutable alien. When you look at what she was/did throughout the Compilation she's a horrific, bizarre, almost Lovecraftian entity, that spreads its own cells like a mind-controlling mutating virus, single-handedly wiped out most of the Ancients, and does stuff like have an eyeball in she titty. I'd absolutely love for them to go completely into that without restraint or restriction and take the original influences of The Thing up to 11. I think if they want to sell some sort of outside-of-time, spacetime weirdness, doing it through Jenova would work well, too. Even to players of the original her true nature is pretty fuzzy. Casting Jenova as an almost Lavos-like figure capable of operating independently of time and using that as the reason why Sephiroth now has foreknowledge (along with Cloud getting hazy flash-forwards through his Jenova cells) would be cool. Even if I'm nervous right now of time travel/timeline shenanigans taking center stage, I think if they focus the whole thing on Jenova being this profoundly alien thing from beyond not just space but time then I think it could actually work for me.
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Apr 16, 2020 22:16
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