|
It probably comes down to her not believing all the bullshit and not caring about the machine. Anyone else probably could have done the same. Everyone working on it was just a slave to thinking they had to do exactly what they were "supposed" to do.
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2020 00:33
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 2, 2024 19:39 |
|
|
Tenterhooks posted:I've not seen this mentioned in any discussions so I'm almost certainly overthinking it but in the final shot, is Jamie wearing the spy watch? I initially took it as an 'aha! she's in a lovely world after all' reveal because of how it was framed but I dunno if I was just looking for poo poo that isn't there. No, they arent the same. Also in rewatching episode 1 to check: I just now realized that the watch had a little camera in it and sergie consciously held his wrist up under his chin pointed at the screen the whole time he was reviewing the code lol I am pretty dumb I didnt realize where the spy function came in on the watch. Jerkface fucked around with this message at 01:19 on Apr 17, 2020 |
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2020 01:16
|
|
|
Rewatching, Stewart is responsible for Lily’s death in both scenarios. You can see him activate the panel. One interesting note is Forest’s insistence that everything is going to be ok. He makes a point of saying it here and when he is playing frisbee with Jamie. It suggests that he has the plan for rebirth without confirmation it will work.
|
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2020 01:56
|
|
|
Ham posted:Many worlds is strictly deterministic because it isn't random, and it doesn't literally mean "everything can happen". It's possible there are zero universes in which a Lyndon survives. Isn't the point that it's a matter of perspective? It's not that there could be zero universes in which Lyndon survives, it's that there could be zero universes in which Lyndon survives from Katie's perspective as she continues along one of her own paths. From Lyndon's perspective, he may have stepped back from the brink, seen Katie get hit by a bus, and continued life some other way that we're not shown because it's not his timeline we're following, it's some variation of Katie's or someone else's. Tiny Timbs fucked around with this message at 04:31 on Apr 17, 2020 |
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2020 04:27
|
|
|
Fallom posted:Isn't the point that it's a matter of perspective? It's not that there could be zero universes in which Lyndon survives, it's that there could be zero universes in which Lyndon survives from Katie's perspective as she continues along one of her own paths. From Lyndon's perspective, he may have stepped back from the brink, seen Katie get hit by a bus, and continued life some other way that we're not shown because it's not his timeline we're following, it's some variation of Katie's or someone else's. Seems unlikely that there would be no possible universes in which Lyndon and Katie both survive. 
|
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2020 04:33
|
|
|
Fallom posted:Isn't the point that it's a matter of perspective? It's not that there could be zero universes in which Lyndon survives, it's that there could be zero universes in which Lyndon survives from Katie's perspective as she continues along one of her own paths. From Lyndon's perspective, he may have stepped back from the brink, seen Katie get hit by a bus, and continued life some other way that we're not shown because it's not his timeline we're following, it's some variation of Katie's or someone else's. The worlds where Katie is hit by a bus are so drastically different that we can safely discount them, same as worlds where for whatever reason Lyndon never applied to Amaya and still lives. What I meant was if you make Lyndon stepping on the edge of the dam your starting point, and consider that the many (not infinite) configurations of particles in the air and in his body are what will determine whether he lives or not, it's possible that from that starting position, all configurations lead to him falling. The possibility space in many worlds is not infinite.
|
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2020 04:42
|
|
|
Tiggum posted:Seems unlikely that there would be no possible universes in which Lyndon and Katie both survive. You just need to set a couple of absolute data and the system will create a possible universe where it can happen. It's if you digitally insert a rat into that initial setup, the universe will create a scenario where two rats were placed instead of just one.
|
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2020 05:09
|
|
|
It was interesting to me that it seemed like in the simulation they ended up there was no Devs/Deus program at all, was the building even there when Lily went out to the field? I didn't think so but perhaps I missed it. Stewart and Lyndon were just regular Amaya employees and Forest had never needed to recruit Katie to help build Devs post car crash.. I like the ending, personally.
|
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2020 05:11
|
|
|
Interview with Alex Garland regarding the finale: https://uproxx.com/tv/alex-garland-interview-devs-fx-on-hulu-ex-machina/
|
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2020 05:30
|
|
|
OTC posted:Heck, given the heavy christian imagery and references (Lily -> Lilith, Devs -> Deus etc.) the last episode could be heading in an entirely different direction and resolve none of this. We even get specific callouts. Good job turning such a fantastic lead-up into Religious Allegory with Sci-Fi Trappings. So there's The Choice™. This affects nothing. no change occurs to Devs. Katie is perfectly capable of doing the same endgame setup of shoving sim-minds back in sim-time. We're all accepting that Devs works perfectly, and cyber-Lily doesn't dissolve into static a few subjective weeks from now? Weak.
|
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2020 11:37
|
|
|
Trying to process my feelings about the finale. Overall I think it's successful and definitely more rewarding than the direction that, say, Mr. Robot went in its last episode whereby it held out a tantalizingly world-shifting twist to the audience then walked it back and kind of made fun of us for want to believe it, but I feel like it fails to really follow-through with condemning Forrest and Katie's world view. The ultimate message that should be taken away from Lily's choice is that Forrest and Katie always had the freedom to choose what they'd do with the knowledge brought about by Devs, but and their unwillingness to do so makes them culpable and ultimate responsible for everything that happened. Forrest and Katie both get a moment of shock and horror at Lily's choice, but it ends all too soon and then gets washed over by Stanley. I'm really not sure what to make of that: it makes sense that Stanley would want to stop Forrest from using the system, but the way it transpires makes the entire system feel like the timeline is somehow self-correcting, which to me feels inauthentic to the message it's trying to send, since it implies that effect is somehow predetermining its own cause. I don't really like that very much. AVClub argued that the ending rewards Forrest but that's only partially true, and again the show is really overlooking the chilling implications of its own narrative. Forrest almost offhandedly mentions that they're now living in Many Worlds and that some of them are hellish for them both, which means that for every iteration of Forrest that gets to live with his family there's another iteration who has to endure an even worse fate, and now with the knowledge that there's nothing he can do about it. I feel like that should hit Lily even harder than honestly I hoped that her final scene would be some act of defiance against Forrest's plan. On an intersectional note, I realized watching the last two episodes that the concept for the Devs system draws a lot from the Matrioshka brain, though on a made-for-tv scale. The fact that Forrest's vision for the system ends with merely simulating reality rather than trying to restructure it feels almost like a missed opportunity.
|
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2020 17:59
|
|
|
Holy poo poo, what a show. It was a mindfuck but at the same time made total sense. The woman Katie was talking to at the end, had we seen her before?
|
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2020 19:21
|
|
|
Tokelau All Star posted:Holy poo poo, what a show. It was a mindfuck but at the same time made total sense. She was the US senator from the third episode. Katie’s decision to get the US government involved is what actually broke Devs.
|
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2020 19:26
|
|
|
Strange Matter posted:it makes sense that Stanley would want to stop Forrest from using the system, but the way it transpires makes the entire system feel like the timeline is somehow self-correcting, which to me feels inauthentic to the message it's trying to send, since it implies that effect is somehow predetermining its own cause. I don't really like that very much. I think Stewart* always disabled the magnetic system. Falling because of the gunshot in the simulation was a red herring.
|
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2020 20:36
|
|
|
Tree Dude posted:I think Stewart* always disabled the magnetic system. Falling because of the gunshot in the simulation was a red herring. Yes. If you rewatch it, you can see that he is disabling the magnetic system in the simulation.
|
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2020 20:48
|
|
|
ghostwritingduck posted:Yes. If you rewatch it, you can see that he is disabling the magnetic system in the simulation.
|
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2020 21:03
|
|
|
Strange Matter posted:Forrest almost offhandedly mentions that they're now living in Many Worlds and that some of them are hellish for them both, which means that for every iteration of Forrest that gets to live with his family there's another iteration who has to endure an even worse fate, and now with the knowledge that there's nothing he can do about it. Yeah, that was something I wasn't clear about. As I understood it, the whole point of Lyndon's contribution to Devs was to acknowledge the Many Worlds reality of what the system's doing, to accept that there is no "true reality" outside the infinite divergence of possibility. So, Devs needs to simulate all possible realities to be accurate, and "nightmare worlds" are a necessary part of that. But that has always been true, of Devs and of the actual metaverse. So, how are sim-Forrest or sim-Lily in a different situation than anyone else? Devs is a simulated reality, but aren't they still singular instances of themselves living in one particular reality? Or are we supposed to assume the sim-versions of Lily and Forrest are experiencing more than one reality at once? Or can transit across those realities? I don't see how they're "living in Many Worlds" any more than literally anybody is. I also don't understand why the sim versions of Forrest and Lily that Katie focuses on are "special." If Devs is simulating all facets of all realities, there would already exist infinite Forrests and infinite Lilies. The sim-Forrest that Katie was speaking to would simply be one of them. Or, are we supposed to think Forrest's happy-family simulation was specifically curated for him by Katie? How are the sim versions of Forrest or Lily especially related to the versions Katie saw die in the elevator? (This show made me really miss The OA.)
|
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2020 21:46
|
|
|
Xealot posted:This show made me really miss The OA.) How was Season 2 of that?
|
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2020 21:53
|
|
|
priznat posted:How was Season 2 of that? It was ok. The main issue being the long time between seasons and I had totally forgotten what happened at the end of season 1.
|
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2020 23:28
|
|
|
Cojawfee posted:It was ok. The main issue being the long time between seasons and I had totally forgotten what happened at the end of season 1. Probably for the best with the last 5 minutes of season 1
|
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2020 23:48
|
|
|
Xealot posted:Yeah, that was something I wasn't clear about. As I understood it, the whole point of Lyndon's contribution to Devs was to acknowledge the Many Worlds reality of what the system's doing, to accept that there is no "true reality" outside the infinite divergence of possibility. So, Devs needs to simulate all possible realities to be accurate, and "nightmare worlds" are a necessary part of that. But that has always been true, of Devs and of the actual metaverse. 1. They have knowledge of the future. The versions of the characters in the Devs sim have about 3 days worth of knowledge of events that may or may not happen. Lily has knowledge about Sergei's true nature, for instance. So that's somewhat significant, but less so than the other reasons because Many Worlds makes that knowledge not super useful except in edge cases. 2. It's the same version of these individuals spread across the Many Worlds. Under normal circumstances, World A contains Lily A and World 17A54YZ contains Lily 17A54YZ, whose identity has been determined by the events of their respective worlds. But as of their insertion into the sim, all Worlds now contain the same iterations of Forrest and Lily, who possess knowledge about the true nature of the simulated reality. Which means that the Lilies and Forrests who got into nice Worlds understand how lucky they are, and the ones who wound up in crapsack universes know that they got the raw end of the deal. Which is what makes it kind of chilling. This all makes me come back to Hannu Rajaneimi (which Mr. Robot did too) and his concept of the transhuman "metaself" from his novels. The simulated Lily now has knowledge that she is just one of an indefinite number of Lilys, all of whom have the same identity but are scattered across the virtual multiverse.
|
|
#
?
Apr 18, 2020 01:18
|
|
|
I really liked the finale. I agree that some things are a little clumsy, but this is essentially a really beautiful thought experiment. Definitely understand why some people weren't into that though. My only problem with some of the criticism is the beefs that go something like "This show sucked because if X was true, it would make life not worth living." Like... the show is designed to specifically ask that question and pose that thought experiment. There are plenty of philosophers and theologians and poets who would vehemently disagree that a predetermined life isn't worth living, or that life in a simulation is worthless. Like, YOU can believe either way about it but I think the show was asking for you to engage with that idea as opposed to telling you "This is how it is." Obviously if you felt that the thought experiment wasn't effectively constructed, by all means, dislike away! Anywho, given the strong Christian allegories on the one hand and fact that, on the other hand
|
|
#
?
Apr 18, 2020 03:14
|
|
|
Imo the best way to sum up the finale is that it was emotionally satisfying (while admittedly still raising some questions) and probably frustrating if you were just watching it to nerd out on the philosophy/details. I felt like I was somewhere between the two and was mostly happy with it, but I also feel like the pieces didn't all come together perfectly.
|
|
#
?
Apr 18, 2020 10:27
|
|
|
Here’s something I don’t quite understand. Lyndon introduced Many Worlds into the system. Forrest and Katie watch a lot of sims of Lily shooting Forrest. But when the time comes, Lilly doesn’t shoot Forrest. But the overall outcome is effectively exactly the same, with Stewart dropping the cube. Forrest and Katie take this to mean that Lily made a choice, proving determinism wrong. But isn’t it just as likely (or more likely?) that Lily shooting Forrest is what happens in... many... of the Many Worlds and the ‘minor variation’ of Lily tossing the gun but getting killed by Stewart is just another world, albeit a lower probability world insofar as Forrest and Katie never saw it in the sim?
|
|
#
?
Apr 18, 2020 16:28
|
|
|
Maybe it means that the universe is both deterministic and you can still make choices to slightly change the outcome. You can make slight course corrections, but the destination is always the same. It didn't matter what Lily did, because she always gets on the transport. She could shoot Forest or hug Forest or do whatever, it doesn't matter. Stewart always turns off the mag lift system and kills them both. You can see that he's messing with the control panel in both versions. Lily might have free will, but Stewart follows his path. Maybe he looked ahead as well but watched himself because that's what he would do, and knew that he had to disable the maglift system.
|
|
#
?
Apr 18, 2020 16:45
|
|
|
Yeah I should have added though, isn’t part of Lyndon’s excitement with the many worlds update that it’s still deterministic? And this pisses Forrest off bc (as we realize in the finale) he knows that he needs determinism AND a single world in order to have a perfect sim of his family with all their memories?
|
|
#
?
Apr 18, 2020 16:50
|
|
|
Sharks Eat Bear posted:Yeah I should have added though, isn’t part of Lyndon’s excitement with the many worlds update that it’s still deterministic? And this pisses Forrest off bc (as we realize in the finale) he knows that he needs determinism AND a single world in order to have a perfect sim of his family with all their memories? He works to reject Many Worlds because the result of a perfect model with Many Worlds is the ending we get in the show: Some versions of him and Lily are in happy worlds and some....very much aren't. The fidelity they achieved, the truly perfect model that is the same as life, requires those suffering versions to exist. If he could just perfectly model a world *without* Many Worlds than he could have one perfect version of reality without suffering. And so he desperately tries to reject a Many Worlds hypothesis. He fails in the end, and so we have the moment where Katie tells him the model only works in a Many Worlds interpretation, and thus a nearly infinite amount of him must suffer to ensure the happiness of the others. It's also why he gives all the Forest's and Lily's knowledge of their own deaths and their reality as a simulation. So that they can know that their suffering has meaning, a balancing equation necessary for better realities to exist.
|
|
#
?
Apr 18, 2020 17:29
|
|
|
That's nice for Forest, but not for the lilies that have to live in a hellscape.
|
|
#
?
Apr 18, 2020 17:34
|
|
|
Cojawfee posted:That's nice for Forest, but not for the lilies that have to live in a hellscape. Cojawfee posted:Maybe it means that the universe is both deterministic and you can still make choices to slightly change the outcome. You can make slight course corrections, but the destination is always the same. It didn't matter what Lily did, because she always gets on the transport. She could shoot Forest or hug Forest or do whatever, it doesn't matter. Stewart always turns off the mag lift system and kills them both. You can see that he's messing with the control panel in both versions. Lily might have free will, but Stewart follows his path. Maybe he looked ahead as well but watched himself because that's what he would do, and knew that he had to disable the maglift system. What Lily's action proves is that the Devs system can only predict the future of their world if it's essentially an unbroken seal, like the vacuum seal that physically encloses the lab. If a person sees the future projection and follows the script, then the seal remains intact. But if at any point a person chooses not to then the seal is broken and the entire projection fails. It's capable of deterministically predicting what a person can do with complete accuracy assuming that they have no knowledge of the system, because they don't have the choice not to follow the system. Once that knowledge is aquired they have a new choice which can be made at any time and will break the seal. Strange Matter fucked around with this message at 22:28 on Apr 18, 2020 |
|
#
?
Apr 18, 2020 18:12
|
|
|
This was good. Not as great as everyone has made it out to be (or saying it’s better than Westworld, lol) but it’s nice to have great stories that finish. this and Watchman give me hope for these longer form movie mini series.
|
|
#
?
Apr 18, 2020 19:37
|
|
|
I think someone earlier commented that the system being unable to predict beyond the Lily/Forrest death doesn’t make sense, even knowing that it’s “wrong” about the shooting; the system would continue to predict the future, it would just be for a different world. That makes sense to me but not sure if there’s something else going on.
|
|
#
?
Apr 18, 2020 19:53
|
|
|
So I guess Lily is now Forest's Manic Pixie Dream Girl?
|
|
#
?
Apr 18, 2020 20:40
|
|
|
I'm not well read on these things, but regardless of what's going on in the simulation / alternate worlds, the Forest we followed through the series is dead and gone and he doesn't stop being dead and gone because some other version(s) of him have his memories, right? Sorta like the teleporter paradox?
|
|
#
?
Apr 18, 2020 22:28
|
|
|
He's dead forever. Katie ran the simulation up until he died and then copied that into a new simulation starting at the beginning of the show. So I guess like in the Prestige. One is created, one dies. The one that was created feels like he's the original, but the original is very much dead. If there's any such thing as a soul or whatever, the original one is gone.
|
|
#
?
Apr 18, 2020 23:04
|
|
|
Which makes it evident that this wasn't really Plan A, but rather a plan that they concocted once they became convinced that Forrest was going to die. If that's unavoidable then there's really no reason to fret about the ontological consequences, because going forward either there's a Forrest or no Forrest.
|
|
#
?
Apr 19, 2020 00:42
|
|
|
It's a small detail, but Forrest's outrage and horror when Lily throws the gun out is pitch perfect.
|
|
#
?
Apr 19, 2020 03:17
|
|
|
QuoProQuid posted:It's a small detail, but Forrest's outrage and horror when Lily throws the gun out is pitch perfect. It reminded me of the end of Godless where Jeff Daniels is all "I've seen my death, and this ain't it" yep no sorry this is actually it, the alternate ending to Charlie and the Chocolate Factory
|
|
#
?
Apr 19, 2020 04:18
|
|
|
So I just watched this. Some thoughts: It started out OK, episode one was pretty good, the acting was bad but I was willing to look past it because of the premise. But after a couple of episodes I was just annoyed. Goddamn the lead character is bad. She has the emotional range of concrete. The wokeness of it all was just too much: all the diversity! What a shame. It was pretty though. Offerman is a cool dude.
|
|
#
?
Apr 19, 2020 08:02
|
|
|
Mr Shiny Pants posted:all the diversity! gently caress off
|
|
#
?
Apr 19, 2020 08:09
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 2, 2024 19:39 |
|
|
Mr Shiny Pants posted:So I just watched this. Some thoughts: I feel like the majority of the criticism about the lead’s acting stem from the fact that she’s outside of the typical leading actress mold. You complaining about diversity just adds to that. All of the characters outside of Katie and Forest independents reminded me and my friend of people we know.
|
|
#
?
Apr 19, 2020 11:13
|
|