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guts and bolts posted:Holy is a sort of failsafe to save the Planet at any cost, including all human life if that's what it takes. It sort of fails to activate properly when the meteor is about to hit, so Aerith/the Lifestream either force it to activate to save everyone or they just make a disc of soul energy and destroy it in the ending. FF7's actual final ending is actually pretty lovely. Its also left vague if Holy ended up killing every single human on the planet. one could guess Aerith's bet to create a better ending tries to avert this.
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Apr 17, 2020 05:26
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The thing is we have no idea if Zack survived and it's the current game's timeline and thus poo poo has retconned itself in-universe, or if it's another timeline. Are we Chrono Crossin'? There's definitely meant to be an air of mystery.
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Apr 17, 2020 05:26
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ThisIsACoolGuy posted:Fair enough, I wasn't sure if Zack like, got rid of those guys then walked a few more steps and got shot by Even More Guys or what due to the ghosts walking by Aerith in the ending. quote:Bugenhagen
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Apr 17, 2020 05:27
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Doesn't everyone survive Holy due to their being sequels like Dirge and Advent? And thanks for infodumping this on me. Just kinda walked away confused so glad I'm getting caught up like this.
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Apr 17, 2020 05:32
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It occurs to me that the only thing I actually want a substantial Nibelheim flashback for is Cloud yeeting Sephiroth into the reactor because it was one of my low-key favorite moments from the original and I very much do want to see it again.
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Apr 17, 2020 05:34
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ThisIsACoolGuy posted:Doesn't everyone survive Holy due to their being sequels like Dirge and Advent? The vagueness of the ending and the lack of information on how long-lived Red XIII's species is has left it open to debate exactly when the "Midgar overgrown, Nanaki has kids (?), everybody seems dead" cutscene is supposed to take place chronologically, or if that was even the intended ending interpretation in the first place. As such Advent Children and Dirge of Cerberus are canon, at least to the events of the original Compilation of Final Fantasy VII, to the best of my knowledge.
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Apr 17, 2020 05:34
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guts and bolts posted:The vagueness of the ending and the lack of information on how long-lived Red XIII's species is has left it open to debate exactly when the "Midgar overgrown, Nanaki has kids (?), everybody seems dead" cutscene is supposed to take place chronologically, or if that was even the intended ending interpretation in the first place. As such Advent Children and Dirge of Cerberus are canon, at least to the events of the original Compilation of Final Fantasy VII, to the best of my knowledge. Essentially the original ending left it unknown whether everyone died or not while the compilation confirmed they did indeed survive. But this is essentially creating a new canon so who knows now?
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Apr 17, 2020 05:40
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Oh Snapple! posted:It occurs to me that the only thing I actually want a substantial Nibelheim flashback for is Cloud yeeting Sephiroth into the reactor because it was one of my low-key favorite moments from the original and I very much do want to see it again. I would like the dutch angles of Sephiroth reading books, personally.
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Apr 17, 2020 05:43
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Flopsy posted:Its also left vague if Holy ended up killing every single human on the planet. one could guess Aerith's bet to create a better ending tries to avert this. the explanation is that meteor was too close for holy to activate fully so aerith uses the lifestream to push the thing back so holy can do it safely and not kill humans which is seen in advent children but if it's just OG FF7 it's left extremely vague
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Apr 17, 2020 05:45
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I’m actually replaying the original right now out of nostalgia and the Nibelheim flashback isn’t actually that long. most of the time spent is random battles on a couple screens, but the actual narrative content is maybe like a half hour, and there’s really not much you can expand on unlike midgar. I could totally see it being an in-medias-res intro to part two where it starts in the truck and then right after the Dragon fight it cuts back to the Kalm inn to show that its Cloud giving everyone the backstory.
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Apr 17, 2020 05:46
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Counterpoint: playable Sephiroth potential.
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Apr 17, 2020 05:50
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They better leave in the part where Seph chucks a materia fastball into Cloud's sternum and then flies off like Superman. That is all I ask. Also keep all the weird rear end mansion enemies like those pendulum dudes with their legs replaced by giant pizza slicers who randomly fall off of their chains and just writhe around on the ground doing nothing for multiple turns. edit: Also I feel like people would pretty easily forgive the Kalm flashback having a few redundant bits if it means you get to play as Sephiroth bisecting some dragons in a single slice in glorious 4k. Grizzled Patriarch fucked around with this message at 05:58 on Apr 17, 2020 |
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Apr 17, 2020 05:56
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Grizzled Patriarch posted:They better leave in the part where Seph chucks a materia fastball into Cloud's sternum and then flies off like Superman. That is all I ask. Those guys will be boss like Hell House, mark my words. God the enemy design in 6/7 was so loving good.
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Apr 17, 2020 05:57
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Grizzled Patriarch posted:They better leave in the part where Seph chucks a materia fastball into Cloud's sternum and then flies off like Superman. That is all I ask. Thanks for reminding me, I about busted a gut toward the end of the Shinra building segment when Sephiroth just slowly floats up and out of view on the rooftop.
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Apr 17, 2020 05:58
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MoaM posted:I would like the dutch angles of Sephiroth reading books, personally. I need the bit where Cloud goes to the  Onmi posted:The thing is we have no idea if Zack survived and it's the current game's timeline and thus poo poo has retconned itself in-universe, or if it's another timeline. Are we Chrono Crossin'? There's definitely meant to be an air of mystery. Man it's going to be buckwild if we like, go back to Midgar and find the Sector 7 plate right where it should be because we retroactively succeeded in stopping the Turks or something. Are we from this point forward freed from time ghosts or did they now never exist? Another lol idea: What if Biggs and (potentially) Jessie didn't actually survive due to time fuckery, they survived anyway but Cloud and Tifa being "idk they were real badly hurt BEFORE the plate fell on them" convincing Barret not to search for them meant they were picked up by some randos in the Watch and delivered to Sector 5 for recuperation. Either way unless Cloud explains what the hell happened at the Edge of Creation, Barret's gonna feel guilty AS gently caress for abandoning them when he learns they're alive. Speaking of time fuckery though, I'm assuming that when Sephy-kun says "Seven seconds" he means that Cloud can change seven seconds of history? The question then is what are his limits there, like, can he actually change things, or could he simply delete time ghosts at certain points so like, Jessie's grenade throw goes properly, or did he get transported to certain points and be physically present and have to do stuff within the limitations of that? One thing I will say is that I loving love how FF7R has sparked online theorizing and discussion not seen since the days of R=U.
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Apr 17, 2020 06:05
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Oh Snapple! posted:Thanks for reminding me, I about busted a gut toward the end of the Shinra building segment when Sephiroth just slowly floats up and out of view on the rooftop. The Mary Poppins theme started blaring in my head during that. someone needs to make an edit with either that or a slide whistle. Ms Adequate posted:I need the bit where Cloud goes to the I won't lie this the most I've been interested in FFVII in YEARS. I'll say this too, they've nailed the characterizations this time around. Holy gently caress they're so drat good. Flopsy fucked around with this message at 06:12 on Apr 17, 2020 |
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Apr 17, 2020 06:08
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Ms Adequate posted:you fucker you got in before me because I was making a long post owned. Ms Adequate posted:One thing I will say is that I loving love how FF7R has sparked online theorizing and discussion not seen since the days of R=U. lmfao... One of the few online theories better than the actual reality. MoaM fucked around with this message at 06:12 on Apr 17, 2020 |
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Apr 17, 2020 06:10
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I played through Chapter 18 again and doing so really drove home just how rushed it all feels. Not "rushed" in the sense of "the developers were rushing when they made it," but in the sense that the story's pacing just smashes on the accelerator and goes way, way too fast. And I think what I wish had happened was for Chapter 17 to be a lot shorter--cut the whole Drum sequence, really--and then turn the whole Whisper Harbinger sequence into a longer dungeon crawl. That would've given a lot more time for the concepts brought up in the ending to be explored a lot more, with more time for the characters to comment on things and try to make sense of what's happening to them. As it stands, the biggest issue I have with it is how jarring it is and how the characters just stop being themselves and start being "drive the plot forward" robots for the duration of a chapter. Giving that all a lot more time to breathe by making it a dungeon instead of just one, big bombastic fight might've helped smooth that over a lot.
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Apr 17, 2020 06:15
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Flopsy posted:The Mary Poppins theme started blaring in my head during that. someone needs to make an edit with either that or a slide whistle. They did a really great job with everyone and I cannot wait to see Yuffie make fun of Vincent and call Tifa Boobs in glorious PS5 4K HD
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Apr 17, 2020 06:18
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I regret to inform you that the materia fastball doesn’t actually happen in the flashback, that’s when you visit the town later. I think the idea that the nibelheim flashback is redundant now is kind of misplaced. Like yeah, we know some of the content - Sephiroth was created from Jenova, he went crazy, and hosed up Tifa and Cloud’s poo poo - but we have none of the context surrounding it. There was no mention of a secret research mansion or that Jenova was kept in the Nibelheim reactor, and I don’t think it’s even directly stated that Sephiroth burned down Cloud’s hometown and killed his mother. It also contains literally the only scenes in the original game of Sephiroth acting like a normal dude who’s “just” a war hero commanding a small bullshit monster hunter mission, which provides context to him holing up in the world’s spookiest library and going crazy, and would definitely help newcomers get a sense of what was going on in that last scene where he’s significantly chiller than before.
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Apr 17, 2020 06:20
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Flopsy posted:I won't lie this the most I've been interested in FFVII in YEARS. I'll say this too, they've nailed the characterizations this time around. Holy gently caress they're so drat good. Huge truth, I love all these morons even more than I already did, and I've loved these morons since 1997.
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Apr 17, 2020 06:22
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Asema posted:the explanation is that meteor was too close for holy to activate fully so aerith uses the lifestream to push the thing back so holy can do it safely and not kill humans which is seen in advent children but if it's just OG FF7 it's left extremely vague Yea in the original ending FMV, it's not clear Holy even does anything except slowing Meteor down for a few seconds
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Apr 17, 2020 06:23
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Harrow posted:I played through Chapter 18 again and doing so really drove home just how rushed it all feels. Not "rushed" in the sense of "the developers were rushing when they made it," but in the sense that the story's pacing just smashes on the accelerator and goes way, way too fast. And I think what I wish had happened was for Chapter 17 to be a lot shorter--cut the whole Drum sequence, really--and then turn the whole Whisper Harbinger sequence into a longer dungeon crawl. That would've given a lot more time for the concepts brought up in the ending to be explored a lot more, with more time for the characters to comment on things and try to make sense of what's happening to them. That one post early this weekend about Chapter 18 being an epilogue to the remake still sits well with me.
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Apr 17, 2020 06:25
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Babysitter Super Sleuth posted:I think the idea that the nibelheim flashback is redundant now is kind of misplaced. Like yeah, we know some of the content - Sephiroth was created from Jenova, he went crazy, and hosed up Tifa and Cloud’s poo poo - but we have none of the context surrounding it. There was no mention of a secret research mansion or that Jenova was kept in the Nibelheim reactor, and I don’t think it’s even directly stated that Sephiroth burned down Cloud’s hometown and killed his mother. It also contains literally the only scenes in the original game of Sephiroth acting like a normal dude who’s “just” a war hero commanding a small bullshit monster hunter mission, which provides context to him holing up in the world’s spookiest library and going crazy, and would definitely help newcomers get a sense of what was going on in that last scene where he’s significantly chiller than before. It's incredibly poignant in the original game and I really hope the development team isn't all-in on the Cloud vs. Sephiroth rivalry that's basically been the crux of all this nouveau FF7 stuff.
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Apr 17, 2020 06:34
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I'm sure someone shared this already since I'm late to the party on everything, but VII Remake was intended to have remixed music from other games. This remix of Kefka's Theme going unused is a goddamn crime.
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Apr 17, 2020 06:35
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Blueberry Pancakes posted:I'm sure someone shared this already since I'm late to the party on everything, but VII Remake was intended to have remixed music from other games. Kefka kicks the door in and starts dancing his way inside ala west side story.
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Apr 17, 2020 06:40
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Help, I loved 90% of this game and now I feel super burned by how sloppy the ending was. Somebody convince me that it's good.
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Apr 17, 2020 06:44
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Blueberry Pancakes posted:I'm sure someone shared this already since I'm late to the party on everything, but VII Remake was intended to have remixed music from other games. On that note, some of the soloing in those jazz fusion remixes is legit out there (go listen to "Bombing Mission" in your game); it was really nice to hear.
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Apr 17, 2020 06:46
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Beefstew posted:Help, I loved 90% of this game and now I feel super burned by how sloppy the ending was. Somebody convince me that it's good. Since they've thrown out the script there's a stronger chance all the good poo poo you've been hoping for that wasn't canon can now happen.
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Apr 17, 2020 06:47
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Hey can someone do me a solid and post that Aerith meme gif from the honey bee Inn that has her going "this is my poo poo?" Google fu is failing me at the moment and I want to share it with someone.
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Apr 17, 2020 06:47
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MoaM posted:That one post early this weekend about Chapter 18 being an epilogue to the remake still sits well with me. Yeah, that could work, too. Really thought I just thought all the stuff in the Drum was a big waste of time, and if they wanted a long dungeon crawl towards the end, using that time to explore the Whispers and this game's take on destiny (and what defying it even means) a lot more would've helped a lot making the ending feel better. Beefstew posted:Help, I loved 90% of this game and now I feel super burned by how sloppy the ending was. Somebody convince me that it's good. The ending was really rushed (in terms of pacing) and sloppy and weird but the basic idea isn't a bad one. We defeated the force that was forcing the story to conform to the original FF7. From now on, big twists that weren't canon in the original are now on the table because the party decided that, even if their fate is to save the world, their freedom--and the chance to make it even better--was more important. One big problem with talking about all this now is we have exactly zero idea what part 2 will look like, how far the story's going to diverge from here, or any of that, so a lot of people (myself included) are just arguing about what we assume will happen and going in circles.
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Apr 17, 2020 06:50
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Beefstew posted:Help, I loved 90% of this game and now I feel super burned by how sloppy the ending was. Somebody convince me that it's good. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYXfHwM9-es
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Apr 17, 2020 06:50
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I would not be in the least bit surprised if "Zack's Wild Time in Midgar" is a DLC/expansion down the line.
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Apr 17, 2020 06:51
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Harrow posted:The ending was really rushed (in terms of pacing) and sloppy and weird but the basic idea isn't a bad one. We defeated the force that was forcing the story to conform to the original FF7. From now on, big twists that weren't canon in the original are now on the table because the party decided that, even if their fate is to save the world, their freedom--and the chance to make it even better--was more important. It feels frustrating that after two decades of FF7 content that didn't feel like FF7, we finally have a game that does. And then it just becomes Advent Children + Kingdom Hearts with a healthy dose of creative navelgazing at the end. It's weird, because I like things like End of Evangelion and Rebuild of Evangelion, as well as MGS2, Drakengard, and The Last Jedi, but the subversion here doesn't feel pointed. It doesn't help that we don't understand precisely what happened. Are we in a new timeline where we retconned Zack back into existence, or did we just make a parallel timeline possible? If the former, how are we going to address issues like Cloud's mental state? To me, FF7 has always been a story about trauma, shame, identity, and mental illness. Not anime sword bois fighting. And we had such a promising start with this one only for it double down on anime sword bois and convoluted multiverse poo poo motivating changes that could've been made organically. Do you think we'll even be able to have the same character arcs for Cloud and pals? FF7 is actually a pretty tight narrative thematically, and if you change one thing, it will have some pretty severe effects on others.
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Apr 17, 2020 06:56
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Beefstew posted:It feels frustrating that after two decades of FF7 content that didn't feel like FF7, we finally have a game that does. And then it just becomes Advent Children + Kingdom Hearts with a healthy dose of creative navelgazing at the end. It's weird, because I like things like End of Evangelion and Rebuild of Evangelion, as well as MGS2, Drakengard, and The Last Jedi, but the subversion here doesn't feel pointed. I really don't know. I've posted a lot in this thread about how mixed my feelings are. I kinda swing back and forth between feeling exactly like you do, and being excited that I don't know what will happen next. What I keep coming back to, though, is just how good the parts of the game before the ending are, especially how well-written the characters are. The team spent the first like 30 hours of this game showing us, in loving detail, that they get these characters, who they really are, not the Advent Children-ized versions. They took the things that really worked about the characters in the original and explored them more, turned things up, leaned into their interactions, all of that. They showed us new things about this world, more details and scenarios and places, that felt very true to the original while still being entirely new. So maybe that means, whatever comes next, they're capable of making something that still feels true to FF7 and true to these characters and world, even if it isn't the same plot and takes a different approach to its themes. Either way, I have very mixed feelings and I'm probably not going to stop feeling conflicted until part 2 comes out and I can see where this is heading. So, it'll be a while. Harrow fucked around with this message at 07:03 on Apr 17, 2020 |
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Apr 17, 2020 07:00
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Beefstew posted:Are we in a new timeline where we retconned Zack back into existence, or did we just make a parallel timeline possible? If the former, how are we going to address issues like Cloud's mental state? Zack meeting with Cloud again could easily lead to a mental breakdown or unearth some anxiety-ridden trauma. It's good drama potential, just think about it... FF7's plot after Cosmo Canyon is pretty malleable; the game is really just a lot of info-dumping at certain points.
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Apr 17, 2020 07:03
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I’m a little mixed on the ending but ultimately, the 1 hour of questionable ending was preceded by 39 hours of incredible tribute to a game I love and a fantastic understanding of characters I care about, and it essentially came off as the team saying “look, we get it, we want to prove to you that you can trust us to handle this” wrt future developments, and I dunno, if the rest of the game is any indication, I think we can?
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Apr 17, 2020 07:04
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Harrow posted:I really don't know. I've posted a lot in this thread about how mixed my feelings are. I kinda swing back and forth between feeling exactly like you do, and being excited that I don't know what will happen next. Yeah, that makes sense. I will say this: If they decide to kill Tifa instead of Aeris just for subversion's sake, I'm gonna be really upset. And no, that's not just because she's my favorite character. And no, that's not just because she's a childhood crush. And no, that's not just because Aeris's death is important for the story. It's because this game has REALLY leaned into Tifa's deeply depressed state. Like, it was subtle, but around the time of the plate collapse, she actually came across as suicidal, like she didn't even want to be saved. They've really played up her survivor's guilt and how badly that's damaging her, which explains why she would go along with Cloud's unwitting deception for so long. And her meltdown with Cloud in Chapter 14 almost had me crying. But if they kill her, the story is basically saying, "lol, you're right, you should be dead." It would be the most mean-spirited and awful thing.
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Apr 17, 2020 07:06
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Beefstew posted:Yeah, that makes sense. I'm generally not on board with a "someone dies instead of Aerith" thing no matter who it is but yeah your reasons for "at least please not Tifa" make a lot of sense. My theory is that Aerith will still die, but in a different way and with a fakeout that she might survive. Though this time it might be an intentional sacrifice on her part, since she seems to know (maybe just on an instinctual level) what her destiny is and is currently trying to defy it, just like Sephiroth's trying to defy his. It'd be a very different moment, both emotionally and thematically, than her original death, which comes out of nowhere and is totally senseless (exactly what it's supposed to be there). But poo poo, maybe the fact that it's very difficult to come into playing this remake without knowing that Aerith dies in the original means the only way to recapture the emotional impact is to come at it from a different angle, after first teasing that maybe, this time, she won't die.
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Apr 17, 2020 07:11
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I think Aerith dying but in a different way is more likely than Tifa dying tbh. Honestly, even with the endgame nonsense I feel like the game's kinda setting things up for the structure to still be largely the same? Like a lot of the new stuff seems to be really emphasising if we can save Aerith this time, and if that's the big focus then the game's still going to need to reach the point where she would usually die. So while i'm sure there's going to be a lot of changes, maybe moreso than in Midgar, i'm thinking the general flow of plot will probably be the same.
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