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Honestly, Durkon's plan was what I was thinking they were gonna do, but Roy's right to shut it down.
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Apr 17, 2020 16:17
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It is a genuinely terrible plan because the odds of Redcloak being alone are infinitesimal
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Apr 17, 2020 16:19
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ImpAtom posted:It is a genuinely terrible plan because the odds of Redcloak being alone are infinitesimal Plus he's just the kind of guy who'd play along, be very reasonable about listening, come to a fine agreement about where and when the party could meet him for a face to face talk to hash things out, conclude the sending spell, then he'd order Xykon onto the necrodragon and set out to turn the order into hamburger meat.
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Apr 17, 2020 16:41
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I get the feeling that they're going to regret not just sending to Redcloak later. Just something about them bringing it up and not doing it out of distrust for the person they're supposed to be cooperating has "gonna bite them in the rear end later during negotiations" written all over it.
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Apr 17, 2020 16:50
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Redcloak is dedicated enough to the goblin cause that he'd probably at least relay what he was told to the Dark One via prayer but both he and the Dark One have a lot of cause to distrust it so who knows what they'd do with the knowledge
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Apr 17, 2020 16:56
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I think, based on what Roy and the OotS knows, it's a bad idea. But based on what WE know, it could be a great idea. Depending on how the message is worded, it could be something Redcloak would hear, not say a word to Xykon, and then get back to Durkon later. Remember, for Redcloak, Xykon is just a dangerous tool. If he's presented with an option that doesn't rely on utilizing Xykon for his ultimate goal, he might take that jump. Then again, based on what we learned in Start of Darkness, it might be a non-starter. I'm on Roy's side here, but I would be really interested to see how Redcloak would react to a message from Durkon.
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Apr 17, 2020 17:05
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Thematically it feels like one of those decisions that will have major ramifications and require much greater sacrifice down the road. 
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Apr 17, 2020 18:02
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Raenir Salazar posted:Thematically it feels like one of those decisions that will have major ramifications and require much greater sacrifice down the road. Yeah, this really feels like an Intelligence vs. Wisdom call where Wisdom probably has it right this time. Roy's so focused on the tactical that he's lost sight of the strategic.
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Apr 17, 2020 18:07
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It's unfortunate but its a natural and logical result of not knowing what we know about Redcloak's interactions with Xykon.
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Apr 17, 2020 18:30
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Gwyneth Palpate posted:Honestly, Durkon's plan was what I was thinking they were gonna do, but Roy's right to shut it down. Mitrah could call as an agent of Thor and someone Redcloak didn't know. There's no need for it to ruin the surprise, just a greeting saying that Thor wants to negotiate with just him and not the lich would lay some groundwork.
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Apr 17, 2020 18:52
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Random Stranger posted:Mitrah could call as an agent of Thor and someone Redcloak didn't know. There's no need for it to ruin the surprise, just a greeting saying that Thor wants to negotiate with just him and not the lich would lay some groundwork. Minrah might not be a high enough level for Sending? Not sure how difficult a spell that is.
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Apr 17, 2020 19:26
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ImpAtom posted:It is a genuinely terrible plan because the odds of Redcloak being alone are infinitesimal It does not matter if he is with people or not. Sending can only be heard by the person it's directed to.
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Apr 17, 2020 19:40
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I'm going to say that Roy is not wrong to want to avoid talking to Redcloak right now. There's no way to know what his response would be, plus the last time they were in the same place, Redcloak delayed leaving specifically to try and kill the Order. It's not like there's any reason the Order has to trust Redcloak, and they don't know anything about his relationship with Xykon beyond what O-Chul observed and passed on.Tenebrais posted:Minrah might not be a high enough level for Sending? Not sure how difficult a spell that is. It's Cleric 4, so she'd need to be level 7. She's at least level 5, but we don't know how high a level she is.
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Apr 17, 2020 21:05
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Lucas Archer posted:I think, based on what Roy and the OotS knows, it's a bad idea. This is a better version of what I said. WE know that Redcloack/TDO are committed enough to be at least interested if someone tells them that TDO is holding a very big card he doesn't know about but the Order doesn't.
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Apr 17, 2020 21:10
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MonsterEnvy posted:It does not matter if he is with people or not. Sending can only be heard by the person it's directed to. Yeah, but how is Redcloak going to respond without being heard?
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Apr 17, 2020 21:15
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I mean, if they could successfully communicate to Redcloak that his backup plan will kill The Dark One before he gets any chance to be involved with the next world, he'd definitely risk parlaying around Xykon. Only, the Order does not know that that is part of his plan, and even if they did, he has little reason to believe them.
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Apr 17, 2020 21:18
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Hrm, I wonder if enough of the tension between RC and XY was apparent for O'Choul to have noticed; or if they only started to form a rift (heh) after losing his eye.
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Apr 17, 2020 21:23
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Just a reminder, the Dark One ascended to godhood after trying to negotiate and being backstabbed by an assassin. I don't think a single sending spell will be enough to convey anything but "they are desperate to kill me and stop my knowledge."
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Apr 17, 2020 21:31
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Colander Crotch posted:Just a reminder, the Dark One ascended to godhood after trying to negotiate and being backstabbed by an assassin. I don't think a single sending spell will be enough to convey anything but "they are desperate to kill me and stop my knowledge." Yeah, one sending isn't going to do it and the Dark One is going to be tough to negotiate with. But you have to start somewhere. The heart of Redcloak's plan was to force the gods to the negotiating table and a cleric of Thor going, "Thor wants to talk," is a start.
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Apr 17, 2020 22:56
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Random Stranger posted:Yeah, one sending isn't going to do it and the Dark One is going to be tough to negotiate with. But you have to start somewhere. The heart of Redcloak's plan was to force the gods to the negotiating table and a cleric of Thor going, "Thor wants to talk," is a start. As if Redcloak is ever going to accept that a plan of his (getting the Gods to the negotiating table through terrorism) actually worked.
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Apr 17, 2020 23:01
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As someone who thinks that the final antagonist is going to be Redcloak (after The Dark One hears about Thor’s offer and abandons The Plan) I think Sending Redcloak is the wrong play on a couple levels, so I’m on Roy’s side here.
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Apr 17, 2020 23:12
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Why is the author spending a strip showing us Durkon presenting his plan only for Roy to shut it down? The ending gag shows that he put some serious thought into it, even enlisting Minrah before informing Roy.
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Apr 17, 2020 23:36
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Absurd Alhazred posted:Why is the author spending a strip showing us Durkon presenting his plan only for Roy to shut it down? The ending gag shows that he put some serious thought into it, even enlisting Minrah before informing Roy. Option 1. Many novels/works of fiction usually present a point where there was a "choice" the protagonist(s) or the villains made which, if they had done it differently might have avoided a lot of heartache down the road. It's a very common story telling device. A "The die is cast" moment that's obvious to the reader and usually has a sombre and solemn tone to it, it doubles also as a form of foreshadowing that things are probably going to go bad and this was the last chance to avert. I can't think of an example off the top of my head but I know its a thing and I recognize it quite obviously, however: Option 2. Durkon, perhaps learning that sometimes for the greater good he needs to break or bend the rules, perhaps as a sign of character development might decide that Roy is letting his biases blind his judgement, and disobeys Roy to contact Redcloak and this is setup for that; or Minrah does so instead, since she's the "Go get em'!" person who might, after seeing Durkon unwilling to go against Roy's orders, gets upset and without the years and years of trust built up between them, goes behind Roy's and Durkon's back to do the sending instead. I already referenced option 1 before but I'll throw in option 2 as well, you should spend more time on tvtropes. Raenir Salazar fucked around with this message at 23:55 on Apr 17, 2020 |
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Apr 17, 2020 23:51
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Absurd Alhazred posted:Why is the author spending a strip showing us Durkon presenting his plan only for Roy to shut it down? The ending gag shows that he put some serious thought into it, even enlisting Minrah before informing Roy. Maybe the next strip will be Durkon elaborating on why and Minrah calling bullshit on that and sending to Redcloak anyway. Her having drafted the message establishes that her and Durkon were in agreement on what to say already.
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Apr 17, 2020 23:52
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Raenir Salazar posted:Option 1. Many novels/works of fiction usually present a point where there was a "choice" the protagonist(s) or the villains made which, if they had done it differently might have avoided a lot of heartache down the road. It's a very common story telling device. A "The die is cast" moment that's obvious to the read and usually has a sombre and solemn tone to it, it doubles also as a form of foreshadowing that things are probably going to go bad and this was the last chance to avert. First, Roy's order was for Durkon not to send a message to Redcloak, not anyone else. So obviously it's a set up for Minrah to do it. Second, nobody should spend any amount of time on tvtropes.
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Apr 17, 2020 23:54
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Roy's answer is logical and I'm pretty sure anything else would get them all killed, but I wouldn't be surprised if at some point Redcloak is says something like, "Why would I believe you when you didn't try to tell me this until after you failed to kill us?" That's another problem, really. Roy is trusting the almighty narrative to give them a chance to negotiate. Talking is always a free action, I guess. But if Redcloak gets his throat cut early on by a third party or he's too mad to listen in the middle of the fight, this decision is going to look pretty bad in hindsight. I forget, is Redcloak's god in a better position to negotiate by leaving the current world intact instead of just destroying and remaking it?
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Apr 17, 2020 23:57
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Random Stranger posted:First, Roy's order was for Durkon not to send a message to Redcloak, not anyone else. So obviously it's a set up for Minrah to do it. Minrah was already working on the message before Durkon was told no this strip, so that doesn't really seem relevant; that would only be relevant if Durkon decided to send the message to someone else other than Redcloak, perhaps the Monster in the Darkness, this would still fall under Option (2) of "This page was setup for something to happen next page". The context I assume was, "What was the narrative, structural, or thematic purpose of this page?" I think in either case some general layman's knowledge of story telling convention/tropes makes it clear what the expectations for the reader should be/are in this case in respect to speculation. Ragnar34 posted:Roy's answer is logical and I'm pretty sure anything else would get them all killed, but I wouldn't be surprised if at some point Redcloak is says something like, "Why would I believe you when you didn't try to tell me this until after you failed to kill us?" If the world dies, the Dark One dies with it.
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Apr 17, 2020 23:58
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Ragnar34 posted:Roy's answer is logical and I'm pretty sure anything else would get them all killed, but I wouldn't be surprised if at some point Redcloak is says something like, "Why would I believe you when you didn't try to tell me this until after you failed to kill us?" it's uncertain - thor thought the dark one wouldn't survive the remaking, but that's obviously a potentially biased point of view. There's a strong positive interest in doing it though.
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Apr 18, 2020 00:03
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Raenir Salazar posted:
Nah, that's the Dark One's backup plan- if the world gets wiped, as a god he'll have a say in the new creation and stop goblinoids from getting the same raw deal as before.
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Apr 18, 2020 00:12
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I'm pretty sure we can take everything Thor told Durkon as factually correct. The whole point of that segments was for the viewers to finally get a look behind the curtain, after a decade of biased narratives. And if we're starting to talk narrative perspectives, then Roy must have made the right call. The entire previous book was a story about the consequences of Roy's choices and how they almost led to the destruction of the world. He's not going to kick off the next book with scoring another point for team apocalypse. Which may well mean that the first conflict will be Minrah going against his orders and making the call anyway, and the Order will have to deal with the fallout from that. Pope Guilty posted:Nah, that's the Dark One's backup plan- if the world gets wiped, as a god he'll have a say in the new creation and stop goblinoids from getting the same raw deal as before. The Dark One doesn't know he'll die with the world. That's the big tragic flaw in Redcloak's plan, which the Order has no reason to communicate to him, as they don't know the plan. Also possibly the gods have a contingency in place where they'll destroy the world if he comes close to casting his ritual spell, but I forget if this is established or that's just if the gate is destroyed. Zulily Zoetrope fucked around with this message at 00:34 on Apr 18, 2020 |
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Apr 18, 2020 00:31
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Does anyone else suspect that there is little chance that Rich can answer all the questions (or at least all the questions he wants to answer) in just one book? I've been entertaining the thought that this book ends with the Order failing, perhaps Xykon tosses Roy into the rift a la the end of book 1. Then Rich surprises us with a book 8 where the Order has to escape the rift after learning that The Snarl has created life on its own there.
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Apr 18, 2020 00:45
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Rich seems like the kind of person who sticks to what he says regarding the meta. If there's only X number of books, there has to be a drat good reason to there to be a X+1 book.
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Apr 18, 2020 00:50
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I wonder if you could go around Redcloak to talk to The Dark One by sending a bunch of clerics to Azure City yelling that Thor wants to talk.
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Apr 18, 2020 00:53
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Pope Guilty posted:Nah, that's the Dark One's backup plan- if the world gets wiped, as a god he'll have a say in the new creation and stop goblinoids from getting the same raw deal as before. Thor said if the world dies, the Dark One doesn't have enough God Goo (don't get thrown my my technical language) to survive. Whether the Dark One will believe one of his strongest foes is another matter. Which is why building a relationship of trust with Redcloak is so important, and why starting that relationship with an ambush and an assassination attempt is such a dangerous idea.
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Apr 18, 2020 00:58
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Mystic Mongol posted:Thor said if the world dies, the Dark One doesn't have enough God Goo (don't get thrown my my technical language) to survive. Whether the Dark One will believe one of his strongest foes is another matter. Thor did say that he saw gods in a better position than the Dark One not survive the transition to a new world. Of course it is still Thor saying that, but I don't see the reason he would have to lie in this case. Even if Redcloak and the Dark One have very good reason to be suspicious, they had shown to be surprisingly practical and that might allow them to at least hear out a plea (albeit with a hand on their metaphorical weapon). Of course the characters do not know that, so...
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Apr 18, 2020 02:28
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Yeah, its weird to think that the Order has barely interacted with Redcloak. He was in the fight at the Dungeon of Durokon, barely escaped him/rebelled under his distant, authoritarian boot in Azure City, and saw him pop in to cast a spell and then leave in the desert. The longest phrase they might have heard from him is "Summon Monster XI."
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Apr 18, 2020 04:35
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The Dark One doesn't know about the universal destruction/recreation, right?
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Apr 18, 2020 05:03
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Gynovore posted:The Dark One doesn't know about the universal destruction/recreation, right? It's hard to say. Apparently the Gods can't even directly interact with Gods from another quiddity?
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Apr 18, 2020 05:06
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Not if they don't want to risk another snarl.
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Apr 18, 2020 05:08
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Loki, Rat, and Tiamat were in good with him. They let him know about The Snarl in the first place. There's even some hints that Tiamat continues to have some deeper plans in play with him.
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Apr 18, 2020 06:44
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