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Getting free damage from AI guns for ctrl+clicking on a ship is really dumb (especially on the Agir that had secondary range almost equal to concealment) and removing that is good, but it's hard to see what the Agir is supposed to do that isn't done better by an Alaska. Alaska isn't really the epitome of balance though. it was probably the same before the secondary nerf/gun buff A main gun buff in exchange for a secondary nerf is probably a good trade in terms of ship strength, because you do more damage over all your games with main guns than with secondaries.
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Apr 17, 2020 22:17
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Secondaries are stupid auto aim nonsense. They were fine and funny when they were basically ineffective but recent envelope pushing with Massachusetts/Georgia/Ohio and then Agir with concealment equal to secondary range are just bad design. Auto aim/auto damage to ships shouldn’t be designed in as the primary means of a ship doing damage.
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Apr 17, 2020 22:19
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I like it when my ship shoots more guns
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Apr 18, 2020 00:05
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Then don't run manual secondaries, because without that skill you can have all of the guns on both sides of the ship going at once. I admit, I run the slot 3 secondary module on the Georgia. And the flag. It does give a bit of extra damage. I'm just minmaxing, I swear I'm not having fun. 
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Apr 18, 2020 00:15
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Are some of the twitch missions short duration timed? I had a 2-step mission that i needed 2 captures in a game, got 4 non-capture missions in a row and now its gone?
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Apr 18, 2020 00:16
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Yolomon Wayne posted:Are some of the twitch missions short duration timed? It's a UI by Wargaming, so the progress indicators don't always work. You might have completed the mission without getting a message. I'm not getting a progress bar for the supercontainer mission when I win games, but the progress is ticking if I look at it in port. Usually the twitch missions last at least a couple weeks.
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Apr 18, 2020 00:25
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James Garfield posted:It's a UI by Wargaming, so the progress indicators don't always work. You might have completed the mission without getting a message. I'm not getting a progress bar for the supercontainer mission when I win games, but the progress is ticking if I look at it in port. ive got the supercontainer mission, but there was another one with step 1 requiring 2 kills and step 2 requiring 2 caps. This one is gone, and i cant even tell if i got the rewards as i dont know what they were and cant check anywhere. Well, hope it wasnt anything too useful.
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Apr 18, 2020 00:32
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A few mediocre camos and 5000 free XP I think. In unrelated news, something something "balans" something something "fun and engaging" and thanks for saving my damage, but disregarding that the Des Moines is overpowered as all hell right now. And what the gently caress is the deal with the Georgia seriously, people go "hurr durr Russian bias, OP Soviet paper ships with stupid gimmicks" when that loving thing is just... right there. It's bizarrely overtuned. Also loving hilarious to play, but like, seriously now. TheFluff fucked around with this message at 00:48 on Apr 18, 2020 |
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Apr 18, 2020 00:45
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TheFluff posted:A few mediocre camos and 5000 free XP I think. Thats 10 detonation flags for the Stalingrad right there. Nothing to do with anyone being overpowered.
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Apr 18, 2020 00:48
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Yolomon Wayne posted:Thats 10 detonation flags for the Stalingrad right there. Yes I know, me saying the DM is overpowered now is unrelated to the Stalingrad detonating. Probably didn't really make that clear at all, did I? Anyway it's gotten a number of gradual buffs and with the legendary module it's just a stupidly strong ship these days. It's always been strong in the right hands but now it's like more slippery than a Zao while having that eyewatering DPM and the absurd AP and the radar and everything. good boat, but probably too good. TheFluff fucked around with this message at 00:58 on Apr 18, 2020 |
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Apr 18, 2020 00:56
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Des Moines has always been one of the best ships in the game, and they've only ever buffed it. It's also not hard to think up a list of ships from every nation in the game that are (or were) more OP than anything the Soviets have: USA: Des Moines, Alaska, Puerto Rico, Somers, Black, release Worcester, Enterprise Japan: Kamikaze, Musashi, Yamato when you consider it completely ignores armour France: Republique before literally every new BB had cruiser overmatch, Henri IV before its engine was removed, Kleber, Bourgogne UK: Thunderer, Daring, Belfast Germany: Release Hindenburg, RTS Graf Zeppelin Pan-Asia: Gadjah Mada, release Yueyang Italy: Giulio Cesare For some reason people don't realise that there is no Russian bias in this game, Wargaming are just awful at balancing.
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Apr 18, 2020 01:02
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TheFluff posted:Yes I know, me saying the DM is overpowered now is unrelated to the Stalingrad detonating. Probably didn't really make that clear at all, did I? Anyway it's gotten a number of gradual buffs and with the legendary module it's just a stupidly strong ship these days. It's always been strong in the right hands but now it's like more slippery than a Zao while having that eyewatering DPM and the absurd AP and the radar and everything. good boat, but probably too good. Yeah sorry, misunderstood that. I dont really see any reason for the rate of fire on the DM, especially when comparing it to others. Ok it doesnt have torps, but please take my 6km german torps for sub 6 seconds reload every day of the week. I dont have the legendary upgrade and i dont know if can force myself to reset a line to get it, but it all comes down to the destroyer-like rof that thing has. Play that thing after 3 italian matches, its hilarious.
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Apr 18, 2020 01:05
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Der Shovel posted:Yeah, the new carriers are a lot more fun to play than the old RTS style. The Japanese line is also a ton of fun specifically, and the Hakuryu is my favourite CV by some distance. this may be just me but i had a lot more fun with them in the old style the AA damage, while anemic aside from uptier matches, is just an unfun mechanism. If they wanted to roll with the current model, dodging clouds would be fine and just making the non-flak AA incidental damage would be a solution I don't think anyone could disagree with since it's almost totally skill based. as it is, you can dodge flak clouds just fine and still have DFAA or some other non-interactive (from the CV player's perspective) on-use skill ruin an entire squadron before you can drop. I'm well aware that even the appearance of defending carrier mechanics itt, let alone having a discussion over it, is a loving minefield of discourse. just read the post please and tia. CVs are broken but it's not exactly fun for people who play them often for more than just lols either. HiroProtagonist fucked around with this message at 01:15 on Apr 18, 2020 |
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Apr 18, 2020 01:09
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davejk posted:Des Moines has always been one of the best ships in the game, and they've only ever buffed it. I'd give up at least two of any of these if it meant I could have the Khabarovsk back in the state it was in whichever patch it was that buffed the HE damage on the Soviet 130mm guns. Y'know, back when it had 8km (or was it even 10km??) torpedoes and like a 4 second rudder shift and everything. Never mind, with the current CV's it wouldn't be the same anyway 
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Apr 18, 2020 01:10
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to add on, the "RTS style" had its own issues but at least it made sense in context of the mechanics involved that still apply now even after the radical revamp a few years ago. playing a CV now means you either get 1k points or 20k+, there's not a whole lot of in-between. this really shows how bad it is because that variance depends entirely on the skill builds of the other team, not even their actual play or really anything interactive at all. I know that when I bring out a CV and launch the first squadron I know pretty quickly which way the match is going to play out and I haven't yet been wrong. eta: and the dispersion of tac bomber drops is incredibly frustrating even with max aim. even worse than tiny tims (which is another level of complaining, since attackers are the only real method CVs have to deal with DDs in particular, aside from royally pissing off BBs with them) HiroProtagonist fucked around with this message at 01:18 on Apr 18, 2020 |
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Apr 18, 2020 01:13
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davejk posted:It's also not hard to think up a list of ships from every nation in the game that are (or were) more OP than anything the Soviets have: The Bayard with 38 mm penetration and pre nerf IFHE was never removed from the store and certain ship reviewers called it meh  HiroProtagonist posted:the AA damage, while anemic aside from uptier matches, is just an unfun mechanism. If they wanted to roll with the current model, dodging clouds would be fine and just making the non-flak AA incidental damage would be a solution I don't think anyone could disagree with since it's almost totally skill based. as it is, you can dodge flak clouds just fine and still have DFAA or some other non-interactive (from the CV player's perspective) on-use skill ruin an entire squadron before you can drop. It's the other way around. Flak might as well not exist for good CV players (and the standard for "good" is not very high here, I don't mean the top 1%). If flak were completely removed from the game without changing anything else, they would only do a tiny bit more damage on account of flying planes straight at the ship they're bombing. But bad CV players (and the average player is bad) are limited mostly by flak, and removing it would make them far more effective. Flak is a terrible mechanic because of this. It's just a skill check for the CV player, but players failing the skill check drag the average down which makes the class appear balanced. If it didn't exist, CV performance would be higher and Wargaming would nerf them to keep the averages at the same level they are now, with the net effect that good CV players aren't as overpowered and the CV skill gap is smaller. HiroProtagonist posted:playing a CV now means you either get 1k points or 20k+, there's not a whole lot of in-between. this really shows how bad it is because that variance depends entirely on the skill builds of the other team, not even their actual play or really anything interactive at all. I know that when I bring out a CV and launch the first squadron I know pretty quickly which way the match is going to play out and I haven't yet been wrong. It really doesn't. The difference between full AA spec and no AA spec is usually one plane per squadron, and it doesn't reduce the number of drops the CV gets. DFAA against a CV that doesn't hit flak is one plane or sometimes two, and rarely prevents a drop. The only thing with a meaningful effect is the fighter consumable, which still doesn't prevent the first drop but does prevent the second drop and kills as many planes as there are fighters. (side note: this means that the extra fighter plane skill gives similar effects to full AA spec, for one commander point) Even then, at high tier only battleships and CVs can usually take the fighter plane without giving up something else that would be more reliably useful. CV performance also tends to be very consistent. It's basically the CV player against a bunch of skill checks. Even really good players in ships can have bad games if a few enemies choose to suicide to kill them (or if a CV chooses to focus them all match) but CVs are never really at risk of dying. BBs especially can have bad games for reasons that the BB player can't really do anything to prevent. A CV won't do as well if the whole enemy team blobs into one grid square and thus throws the game, but that's far beyond what has to happen for anyone else, and even then the CV is still really strong. HiroProtagonist posted:eta: and the dispersion of tac bomber drops is incredibly frustrating even with max aim. even worse than tiny tims (which is another level of complaining, since attackers are the only real method CVs have to deal with DDs in particular, aside from royally pissing off BBs with them) Play a German battleship and tell me about incredibly frustrating dispersion with max aim.
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Apr 18, 2020 02:14
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The DM isn't overpowered because it's not hard to kill. Most BB's it sees can citadel it from any angle and if it gives broadside to anything it'll get ripped in half too. SAP and HE also works pretty well against it. You really only have 6 guns to work with because if you bring your rear turret to bear against someone with their guns pointed at you, you're de-angled enough to have a bad time. Also while 5.5 second reload on 203 MM guns with superheavy AP is great you're still going to take 2-4+ salvos to kill stuff with it unless dispersion magically grants you 6 citadels on your first one. As someone who regularly kills high-health BB's with my DM, they only have to hit you once while you have to hit them with like, 12+ salvos to kill them even with full pen AP damage. That's roughly two shots for them to end you with. And finally, it really, really, really sucks to have even a single turret on your DM get destroyed. A string of battles where I had my turrets get blown up (including a game where I had both my front turrets nixed and had to deal with just my rear) is why I dropped my 19 point generic US CA captain on it for a John Doe with EM in the build. Because holy poo poo is it super annoying to only have half your effective firepower in the thing. I actually did pretty well with only my butt turret that one game, but I was in full 'gently caress this match time to YOLO' mode and it just happened to work then. TheFluff posted:And what the gently caress is the deal with the Georgia seriously, people go "hurr durr Russian bias, OP Soviet paper ships with stupid gimmicks" when that loving thing is just... right there. It's bizarrely overtuned. Also loving hilarious to play, but like, seriously now. Because like the DM above, the Georgia is not hard to kill. It's an Iowa hull and it only has 6 guns so it wants to bring all of them to bear as much as possible. Which means it'll give enough broadside to get punished for it. Most of the 'omg so op' ships are because they don't blow up when you shoot them. Smolensks are small enough that normal dispersion and dodging can make them seem like they have a forcefield. Kremlins have a lot of HP and armor and need to be focused down by a lot of firepower when they're angled. Kleber's are stupidly fast and require adjusting your zoom to accurately shoot at them. James Garfield posted:It really doesn't. The difference between full AA spec and no AA spec is usually one plane per squadron, and it doesn't reduce the number of drops the CV gets. DFAA against a CV that doesn't hit flak is one plane or sometimes two, and rarely prevents a drop. The only thing with a meaningful effect is the fighter consumable, which still doesn't prevent the first drop but does prevent the second drop and kills as many planes as there are fighters. (side note: this means that the extra fighter plane skill gives similar effects to full AA spec, for one commander point) Even then, at high tier only battleships and CVs can usually take the fighter plane without giving up something else that would be more reliably useful. For some boats, full AA can mean the difference between 'being dropped on once' and 'being dropped on twice' for people who pay attention to their AA ranges and thus get their sector reinforcement damage most of the time. I have yet to see a non-carrier fighter consumable that has done the same, even with an extra plane in there. They simply don't last long enough to prevent the carrier from taking a scenic route, de-aggroing the fighters and then coming back for a second/third drop. Yes. Third. I've been dropped on three times in my Soyuz with my fighter consumable up. Mostly by Hakuryu's who just danced around it. EponymousMrYar fucked around with this message at 03:13 on Apr 18, 2020 |
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Apr 18, 2020 02:50
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EponymousMrYar posted:
The other issue with Smolensks is that they're so narrow that battleships can put shells straight through even their citadels and still get overpens due to arming/fuzing length issues. Hell, even some heavy cruisers can have that issue at close enough ranges - literally put basically a full salvo of 203mm AP shells into the amidships waterline of one at ~4km the other day and came away with 9 overpens (and zero citadels). This was Zao, which has standard fuzing time and 920m/s shells, so some CAs with slower shell flight speeds and/or faster than average fuzing might be okay, but it's still completely ridiculous.
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Apr 18, 2020 03:30
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EponymousMrYar posted:The DM isn't overpowered because it's not hard to kill. Most BB's it sees can citadel it from any angle and if it gives broadside to anything it'll get ripped in half too. SAP and HE also works pretty well against it. You really only have 6 guns to work with because if you bring your rear turret to bear against someone with their guns pointed at you, you're de-angled enough to have a bad time. The Des Moines is absolutely overpowered. It was already the strongest tier 10 cruiser when it had 27 mm upper belt, and then it got buffed to have effectively the same armor as any other tier 10 CA except Venezia (assuming the Des Moines player doesn't broadside; Venezia has an icebreaker, Moskva/Stalingrad/Puerto Rico are kind of their own thing). A ship can be overpowered without being literally unkillable. Among other things, Des Moines shits on literally every other cruiser in the game 1v1, and it has the concealment to force them to fight it 1v1. Bow in Des Moines isn't using it to its full potential, if you play bow in you have the same dpm as a Hindenburg. Going all the way bow in also ironically makes you easier to citadel for BBs that don't overmatch 30 mm. It has 30 degree firing angles to the front and rear, so against ships that don't have improved AP angles you can fire all three turrets without showing the citadel. EponymousMrYar posted:Because like the DM above, the Georgia is not hard to kill. It's an Iowa hull and it only has 6 guns so it wants to bring all of them to bear as much as possible. Which means it'll give enough broadside to get punished for it. Having six guns isn't a weakness when they're the most accurate BB guns in the game and have buffed reload for no reason and overmatch 30 mm unlike any other tier 9 BB except the also overpowered Musashi. Even with six guns Georgia isn't the lowest damage per minute tier 9 BB. That's not even mentioning that it gets French cruiser speed boost for no reason, and half the heal cooldown of normal battleships for no reason (it's not because it's fragile, Alsace has a standard heal with the same hp and no 38 mm armor). Having to turn to expose your rear guns is something that all but two of the battleships in the game have to deal with. In general the skill ceiling in this game is a lot higher defensively than offensively. If a ship has a ton of damage potential but dies easily a good player can work around the weakness, but there's not much you can do about a ship that's tanky but can't do damage. Smolensk is a good example of the first case (people don't do well distinguishing annoying from overpowered: Smolensk is both overpowered and annoying, but it's only overpowered given a good player, which is rare, while it's always annoying) and Prinz Eugen is a good example of the second. EponymousMrYar posted:For some boats, full AA can mean the difference between 'being dropped on once' and 'being dropped on twice' for people who pay attention to their AA ranges and thus get their sector reinforcement damage most of the time. I have yet to see a non-carrier fighter consumable that has done the same, even with an extra plane in there. They simply don't last long enough to prevent the carrier from taking a scenic route, de-aggroing the fighters and then coming back for a second/third drop. It really doesn't. If you do the arithmetic for AA damage before and after BFT and the slot 6 AA module, it's about equal to one extra plane, and because the reserve planes die first that one plane doesn't prevent a drop. The catapult fighter consumable will reliably lock on and kill planes, and while it doesn't prevent the first drop it kills enough planes that between that and AA damage the CV doesn't usually get a second (it helps that catapult fighter is usually on BBs which tend to have good AA dps). The CV can cheese the fighters with its own fighter consumable, but if it waits 60 seconds for the fighters to run out and then bombs you, you prevented a drop. It can obviously go bomb someone else and then come back when the fighters run out, but that's more of an inherent issue with CV ship interaction than a problem with the fighter consumable.
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Apr 18, 2020 03:42
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James Garfield posted:Having six guns isn't a weakness when they're the most accurate BB guns in the game What
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Apr 18, 2020 04:02
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James Garfield posted:Among other things, Des Moines shits on literally every other cruiser in the game 1v1, and it has the concealment to force them to fight it 1v1. Taking out a bunch of pubbies/players that want to Win Harder 1v1 isn't unique to the DM anyway. Similarly I've had more luck being bow in with my DM than trying to be greedy with my 3rd turret. Because here's the thing: you give a 30 degree angle to, say, a GK at 13-14km and you're also probably giving it a 25 degree angle on at least one of it's turrets. And that's asking to be citadel'd. Boats are big. The Georgia does not have the most accurate BB guns in the game. That would be the Thunderer. I would say the Georgia is about on par, maybe a little worse than a Montana, I haven't had good luck or shots in mine when I take it out. Here's what I've noticed through leveling the Russian BB line and what my fighter consumable did: Catapult fighters mostly locked on and killed planes that had already completed a drop on me and were gaining altitude to return the carrier. The only time I saw them engage and kill planes in an active flight was when that flight was flying through their radius and my fighters were oriented so that they locked on and did their thing immediately. 95% of the time the fighters did nothing. They would lock on and head on over, but they wouldn't kill any planes. Either because the carrier flight left their engagement zone, the CD would end, or the magical plane immunity carrier's get when they complete drops would have my fighters focus on the planes that had already dropped. EponymousMrYar fucked around with this message at 05:24 on Apr 18, 2020 |
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Apr 18, 2020 05:16
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Skane was great, until it sucks. It really has a hard loving time against a lot of comps in this meta because it can't do a ton of damage very fast nor can it really contest caps, so you're at the mercy of your teams.
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Apr 18, 2020 06:02
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EponymousMrYar posted:The Georgia does not have the most accurate BB guns in the game. That would be the Thunderer. It's Thunderer over 16km, Kremlin under 16km
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Apr 18, 2020 06:02
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EponymousMrYar posted:1v1 is up to the RNG whoever is OP. I've lost more 1v1's than I've won 1v2/3's. That's where the DM is overpowered, because it can kill ships really, really quickly when they show enough broadside to get citadel'd by it (or by HE if they're low enough on health.) Even then if one of those ships is flanking it can be a tossup on the DM taking that ship out or taking out that ship's teammates before being blown up. It's turret traverse isn't that great. Des Moines against most tier 10 cruisers isn't even close. It's not up to RNG, because it wins by so much that even if it gets hosed over by RNG it still wins. It's not about bad players either, you don't need to be a better player to win. It's true though that the DM is a high floor/high ceiling ship, and it doesn't overperform on average because the average player doesn't use it well. It's not really hard to do. Nothing has firing angles good enough to use rear turrets without allowing a Des Moines to use AP, and DM has more HE dpm than anything else out of its front guns. You walk up to the other ship, fight it at 10 km, and stop shooting if it tries to kite. EponymousMrYar posted:Similarly I've had more luck being bow in with my DM than trying to be greedy with my 3rd turret. Because here's the thing: you give a 30 degree angle to, say, a GK at 13-14km and you're also probably giving it a 25 degree angle on at least one of it's turrets. And that's asking to be citadel'd. Boats are big. Ships aren't that big. I think the size of the ships in game is exaggerated with respect to the distances, but the full length of a real life battleship at 10 km is about one degree. The difference between the angle to the front and rear turrets only matters if you're really close. You're also safer angled against BBs that overmatch 27 mm than you are perfectly bow in, because geometry makes the bow citadel a smaller target (and because the BB players are more likely to aim for your citadel and autobounce). EponymousMrYar posted:The Georgia does not have the most accurate BB guns in the game. That would be the Thunderer. I would say the Georgia is about on par, maybe a little worse than a Montana, I haven't had good luck or shots in mine when I take it out. Thunderer has the same dispersion with 0.1 more sigma, but Georgia gets the improved accuracy module in slot 6. I think the difference is pretty small, but at any rate the Thunderer is overpowered at tier 10 (with one extra turret, less AP alpha, and tier for tier a worse hull) and both are significantly more accurate than anything else. EponymousMrYar posted:Here's what I've noticed through leveling the Russian BB line and what my fighter consumable did: Catapult fighters mostly locked on and killed planes that had already completed a drop on me and were gaining altitude to return the carrier. The only time I saw them engage and kill planes in an active flight was when that flight was flying through their radius and my fighters were oriented so that they locked on and did their thing immediately. 95% of the time the fighters did nothing. They would lock on and head on over, but they wouldn't kill any planes. Either because the carrier flight left their engagement zone, the CD would end, or the magical plane immunity carrier's get when they complete drops would have my fighters focus on the planes that had already dropped. Catapult fighters focus the reserve, same as AA. If they're properly timed and the CV flies into the radius, they kill planes. In that respect they're better than most AA in the game, switching from spotter plane to fighter is a bigger buff than full AA spec, and the one point extra fighter skill is the best AA commander skill. The only real exceptions are if the CV cheeses them with fighters, or a few squadrons that can outrun them (but if the CV runs away and presses F, you prevented a drop). James Garfield fucked around with this message at 08:57 on Apr 18, 2020 |
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Apr 18, 2020 07:18
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Did the HE change buff the Jutland or is it just me? Because I'm research bureauing the Brit DD line and I can now reliably damage things with my guns without needing IFHR. And the Georgia is like if the Hood and the Massachusetts had a beautiful baby together. My favorite BB.
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Apr 18, 2020 09:22
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So shockingly the submarines are a still a mess. - They can keep ships perma-spotted while being invulnerable to damage (the submarine has to be at a depth of under 6 meters to take damage, and it's extremely easy to keep feathering the depth meter to hover just around 6 meters and get easy targeting pings, then dive 20 cm deeper when you get targeted and shells are coming in). - This means that destroyers charging in to depth charge them will get focused to poo poo by the sub's teammates, and their reward is the sub using a special consumable to negate 90% of the depth charge damage anyway. - The lock on torpedoes are still extremely powerful, because the victim doesn't get any indication that they're being pinged. "I have no idea how they hope to balance this mess", says Flamu. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xzw_OqmCvl8 Many ships literally have ZERO counterplay against subs, because only destroyers and certain cruisers even have depth charges to begin with. Shaman Tank Spec fucked around with this message at 10:08 on Apr 18, 2020 |
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Apr 18, 2020 10:05
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Der Shovel posted:So shockingly the submarines are a still a mess. There may be something weird going on with the maximum dive consumable. I got on top of a sub and used the depth charges, and he used his max dive consumable, and he ate poo poo and died anyways.
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Apr 18, 2020 11:36
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A few things to note about that flamu video as me and hazdoc were talking about it on discord earlier: 1) flamu mentions late that this is bots mostly. I'll get into it later, but just keep this in mind 2) He makes a lot of grave mistakes in the video and doesn't even test or talk about it. For example: he ran full speed with depth charges instead of slowing down so the charges was spread out and was minimized versus slowing down 3) In talking about DDs unable to just push in and stomp a sub as they'll be perma spotted by the sub, the same holds true of the sub. See talking point 1 4) Subs can never in no way match the level of CVs no matter how much sky falling tears come up. And in fact, even if you argued the bot point that was similarly argued with cvs, subs are still beholden to the same ocean limitations as all other ships in the game. Lets talk about this some more combining it all together. The enemy is mostly bots. "That pensacola had no idea I was pinging him" "Look how much damage I did to a broadside QE with just one ping". Look again and notice both are bots. Reminder of bots versus real gameplay. These bots mash w and then mostly only had a/d to dodge islands. That is it. This isn't carriers where you ignore terrain completely. A sub can't do poo poo to an island humper. A sub can't do anything if the QE pulled back and turned around to disengage and heal. A CV ignores these maneuvers and can still poo poo it up. A sub can not. It can't just boff an island humper with magical torps that ignore islands because they don't have magical torps. So he caught a bot at broadside and punished it. I could do the same in an aoba. Or a pheonix. Nerf them too because the bots happily let you close it up and just yolo torp them dead too. About the depth charges. You can be more effective if you slow down to concentrate them. Similar to how you need to slow down to actually get into the cover your smoke is creating. There was a large gap created by his depth charges due to the cycle time to launch them all. Fun fact: the gaede apparently has the best asw suite of all t6 DDs. Thanks to the combo of hydro and one hell of a punch from its depth charges. Speaking of depth charges. Remember how I said subs are limited to the same action area as a normal surface ship? Yup, I mean that. A sub sitting in normal front lines pushing the middle is going to get stomped off one way or another. The DD just has to disengage and ignore the sub there until later. Perhaps alerting the team that there is a sub in the area. But the sub is also in a bad position because it is mostly going to be shooting at bow on ships. This is the worst way to be as you'll never get a stern ping. Likewise, launching torps from depth can use up 3-4km of range just to get to surface to even start running and arming. So keep in mind that these ships don't like being close. Your safest bet as a sub is to hit the flanks. However, that leaves you fairly alone and easy to be picked off by a DD. Subs even at t6 are running 60s reload on those torps. And germans are the only ones with crazy alpha. The other two nations don't have nearly the punch. These ships will basically replace DDs in the scouting meta due to their lower detection range. And they can poke things from time to time. But you have to be careful in your positioning because you'll be kind of alone without much change of teammate support of a DD goes after you if you are trying to properly play the flank to get those double ping wrecking ball hits.
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Apr 18, 2020 12:16
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EponymousMrYar posted:The DM isn't overpowered because it's not hard to kill. EponymousMrYar posted:Because like the DM above, the Georgia is not hard to kill. It's an Iowa hull and it only has 6 guns so it wants to bring all of them to bear as much as possible. Which means it'll give enough broadside to get punished for it. Georgia "not hard to kill"? what? My dude, it's a battleship, and a battleship that does 40 knots and has a heal that reloads in 40 seconds. The thing is loving unkillable, you basically die when you feel like you don't care anymore, never before that. If you die in the Georgia before having used all of your heals it is never because anything the enemy did. It is in one hundred percent of the cases because you, the captain, hosed up. Anything that is fast enough to keep the Georgia in a fight is completely incapable of killing it faster than it can heal, and some of the ships that are fast enough (French cruisers, mainly) have a hard time actually keeping up with it because they have to stay so close it's gonna do a lot of damage to them. Yes it can be citadelled if you show broadside so pubbies who just yolo in on speedboost at the start of the game die quickly, but any halfway decent BB player almost never eats citadels. It doesn't reduce the strength of the ship in any way. TheFluff fucked around with this message at 12:27 on Apr 18, 2020 |
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Apr 18, 2020 12:21
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JuffoWup posted:3) In talking about DDs unable to just push in and stomp a sub as they'll be perma spotted by the sub, the same holds true of the sub. See talking point 1 No it doesn't though. The sub can stay at safe depths and keep ships perma-spotted for as long as they please. The big problem is that subs can stay submerged indefinitely, and keep spotting surface ships indefinitely. They have a smaller detection range than DDs, and a DD (the main anti-submarine weapon) trying to go on a depth charge run on a submarine will get detected long before the sub, and stay detected. We all know what will happen to that DD when it gets spotted, meanwhile the DD's teammates can't do anything about the sub other than hoping their DD somehow stays alive long enough to maybe drop depth charges on the sub. quote:Lets talk about this some more combining it all together. The enemy is mostly bots. "That pensacola had no idea I was pinging him" "Look how much damage I did to a broadside QE with just one ping". Do... do you think he just shot some torps at bots and called it a day? There's video on the clip of him playing surface ships, and numerous other people have discussed the same problems: a ship being pinged does not get any notification that they've been pinged, and they'll only see that they're being torped when the homing torpedoes show up at normal torpedo detection ranges. And the torpedoes do just as much damage to humans as they do to bots. And it works the other way around too, as Flamu points out in the video. He was able to make depth charge runs on subs only because the sub's teammates were bots and didn't laser focus on a destroyer the second one gets spotted. In a normal human game he would've been blapped long before he got on top of the sub. quote:Perhaps alerting the team that there is a sub in the area. But the sub is also in a bad position because it is mostly going to be shooting at bow on ships. Even pretending for a moment that in a random match anyone will listen to a word the DD is saying, so what? The sub can still sail along happily, keeping the surface ships permaspotted at a depth where battleships and many cruisers have LITERALLY no counterplay because none of their weapons will be even theoretically effective. This is also the situation you end up in after your DDs yolo into caps one minute in and get blapped. EDIT TO CLARIFY: - I don't really have a problem with stealth torpedoes. - I don't even really have a problem with subs being able to fire lock-on torpedoes (they weren't nearly as bad as they were in previous iterations) - My problem is that subs can provide WAY too much intelligence, while being completely safe - Many ships literally have no counterplay against a diving submarine, because they do not have depth charges and artillery is literally 100% useless against a sub that doesn't surface - Even the ships that do have counterplay against a diving submarine are at a massive disadvantage because they can be shot to poo poo by the submarine's teammates while being permaspotted by the submarine (who in turn is safe from the destroyer/light cruiser's teammates) A single submarine can shut down an entire flank or cap by itself by just sitting there keeping everything permaspotted and firing torps at anything that approaches with zero danger to itself, and that doesn't feel too great. Ideas for how to start to fix submarines: - Force them to surface periodically* - Give all surface ships SOME kind of ASW weaponry - Limit their spotting while submerged (* I realize this will probably make submarines in turn very frustrating and unfun to play, but hey: it's almost like stealth classes are a nightmare to balance in general and that's why submarines are a nightmare as well?) E2: or what TheFluff said. Shaman Tank Spec fucked around with this message at 13:31 on Apr 18, 2020 |
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Apr 18, 2020 13:04
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What really concerns me about subs isn't so much overpowered vs underpowered (the game has always been very unbalanced but that's actually one of the lesser problems), it's more about adding another ship class that has limited interaction with the others, and in a way that goes beyond even what we already have. A DD can spot and torp you from stealth but you can always shoot it back if it gets spotted, and there are ways to mindgame the torpedoes and try to mitigate the damage. A smoke cruiser can shoot you from smoke, but you can blindfire the smoke or torp it, and he can't see you from inside unless you shoot. A CV is worse, you can only shoot it at the end of the game basically, but at least you can shoot it if it's spotted and it can at least hypothetically run out of planes to attack you with. These things though have a literal button that make them completely untouchable by everything except DD's and some (but not all) cruisers, but they can still interact with other ships, spot them and even damage them. That is a recipe for an incredibly obnoxious mechanic, right there, especially since DD's aren't played a great deal these days and most of them die early.
TheFluff fucked around with this message at 13:34 on Apr 18, 2020 |
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Apr 18, 2020 13:30
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Honestly, in a perfect world they'd just add submarines as a new PVE game mode where a wolfpack / the non-German equivalent tries to work together to sink a convoy or something.
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Apr 18, 2020 13:32
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Der Shovel posted:Honestly, in a perfect world they'd just add submarines as a new PVE game mode where a wolfpack / the non-German equivalent tries to work together to sink a convoy or something. If only they had any PVE except "do the last 100xp for your daily quest-step", i mean in star conflict pve was almost more fun than pvp at times, and rewarding on top.
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Apr 18, 2020 14:59
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Wouldn’t getting rid of homing torps solve like 90% of the problem with subs?
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Apr 18, 2020 16:12
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dialhforhero posted:Wouldn’t getting rid of homing torps solve like 90% of the problem with subs? No. The homing torps are just a balance issue, they're unrelated to the more fundamental problem of interaction with other ship classes.
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Apr 18, 2020 17:04
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Homing torps do seem a little dumb, as does surveillance from deep underwater. They sound like they're a little too Cold War and not enough WW2. Shouldn't they play more like lovely slow destroyers that can go underwater to lurk? Most of their interactions of any kind should be on the surface, and ASW gameplay should involve cruiser and battleship launched planes as well as DDs. Maybe that playstyle was too passive, not exciting enough. I dunno. I hope they add Italian frogmen as a premium submarine.
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Apr 18, 2020 17:06
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Der Shovel posted:No it doesn't though. The sub can stay at safe depths and keep ships perma-spotted for as long as they please. The big problem is that subs can stay submerged indefinitely, and keep spotting surface ships indefinitely. They have a smaller detection range than DDs, and a DD (the main anti-submarine weapon) trying to go on a depth charge run on a submarine will get detected long before the sub, and stay detected. Do you really think a near-stationary spotter is going to affect matches in a positive way? Sure, a sub can sit submerged and spot "forever", but how good is that spotting, actually? Subs actually have subpar spotting? Actually, yes. The Cachalot has a view range of 21km, pretty impressive I suppose. But once it dives, that view range drops to its torpedo range, 10.5km. No ship beyond 10.5km renders or is spotted by the Cachalot when dived. What a spotting menace. And lets not forget, this is the BEST stat when it comes to spotting surface ships. The S-1 has a view range of 17.4km, and the U-69's view range is 13.2km. Like the Cachalot, their view ranges drop to their torpedo ranges when diving, a measly 8.7km and 6.6km, respectively. So a sub that's diving and is "invincible" spots only the things it can actually shoot at. How is this better than CV spotting? 2nd thing to note is that subs play by line of sight rules, they cannot spot things that are blocked by smoke or terrain, no matter how much you replay the Flamu video and imagine he says something else. They can spot via smoke-firing penalty, but otherwise they play the same spotting game as everyone else. As far as spotting goes, they're basically DDs with a detection radius of 4km instead of 6. So they'll outspot DDs by a decent margin. But wait, we're also forgetting about the sub's own manevuerabilty. Subs are pretty drat slow. On the surface in a line they can go up to 26 knots, but turning bleeds off speed, and NOT being at the very top of the surface (AKA, 0 meters dived, not 5.9) also reduces their top speed. The fastest subs can go underwater is 16 knots, and their turning parameters also take a hit while underwater. So subs are not exactly great at being mobile spotters, they can sit on a cap maybe, but outside of that, not much else. And then there's sub positioning, and battery power. Their main torpedoes are bow-on. Sure, they have aft tubes, but they fire 1-2 torpedoes aft, instead of 4 torpedoes from the bow. That means they need to be positioned in a specific way if they want to attack, which also limits their ability to reposition. Subs take a pretty long time to turn around, after all. And subs that are pinging aren't nearly as stealthy. Subs on the surface pinging can be spotted rather easily, the Cachalot going up to 7km detect radius! When submerged it goes down a fair bit, but DDs within 6km still get bearings on them when they ping, they and it uses up battery power. Battery power is only restored by going 1/4 speed, or being on the surface. 1/4 speed for subs is like... 6-7 knots, at best. A sub without battery power is completely incapable of delivering attacks from depth, and is limited to either surfacing and firing dumb-fire torps, or just sitting there being useless until they get back to the speed necessary to recharge batteries. Assuming a sub can jump through all these hurdles and still get into range of a battleship, we have the best case damage scenarios of a double ping (at time of impact) 4 torp hit, which does 60k damage all cits from the U-69 down to 32kish damage from the S-1. Around a 60 second reload. But this isn't going to happen terribly often. Lets say a BB just goes bow on. Now you're going to get 2 hits, maybe 3, and bow-on means no double ping. So 2 bow hits from the U-69 is max 30k, but doing saturated damage is going to be 20k tops, and a very saturated bow area. All of this is again, assuming the sub even gets into range to pull this off. In a real game, BBs are not going to push up like bots do. The Cachalot is the only sub with a realistic chance of being able to touch BBs who are playing normally. The Cachalot's also the least stealthy sub, so getting screened off by a DD isn't unrealistic (you have to dive to avoid getting outspotted by a DD when pinging), and you're the worst at sub v sub combat. Basically, subs aren't worth focusing your efforts on attacking, unless they push up into the enemy, in which case they're much more vulnerable to a DD depth charging them or being attacked by an enemy sub. A DD can VERY easily disengage with a sub, smoke works just fine, or just sailing away, due to subs being stupidly slow. Being the victim of homing torps isn't a big concern, as a sub has to be fairly close to even have that opportunity, and the homing isn't super strong. I don't get a lot of hits on even bot cruisers, as they maneuver way too fast and the torps struggle to keep up. Good luck hitting a DD, you're most likely to hit a DD with point-blank dumbfire torps than hitting them with homing ones, tbh. The lack of counterplay is a bit obnoxious, as being in a sub v BB situation is really tedious, as if the BB just sits on top of a sub there's basically nothing either can do to the other. The sub has to surface to attack it at this range, and the BB can't hit it with its guns unless it surfaces, so they're in a stalemate, unless the sub gets an angle to try a dumbfire shot on the BB (and will take a return shot for it). Same goes for CAs, I suppose, but CAs are a lot more maneuverable. I honestly wouldn't be opposed to giving every ship depth charges, and just give BBs and CAs like, 1 load of 2 charges that take a minute to recharge, so they can eventually strangle a sub to death. This'll probably be a bigger issue when the patch goes live, as right now BBs are all bots and therefore never live long enough to be in such a situation. Do away with subs elongating the end of a match if there's no depth charge ships to deal with them, and subs will be more or less fine, I think. Actually, would be interesting that if a team only has subs left then the team with surface ships left gets a point bonus or something, to close a match out faster? I dunno. Hazdoc fucked around with this message at 18:11 on Apr 18, 2020 |
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Apr 18, 2020 18:05
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Regardless, I want a U-69 because it is nice.
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Apr 18, 2020 19:08
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dialhforhero posted:Regardless, I want a U-69 because it is nice. Its definitely the best sub for fighting other subs.
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Apr 18, 2020 21:41
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I'm new to this game and picked the Shimakaze line to start with. I'm up the Mutsuki now. My main goals at this point are to not die and keep enemies spotted. I have 4% torpedo accuracy - I'm not good at aiming torpedoes. Can anyone spare some hot goon tips for not sucking in DDs?
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Apr 19, 2020 05:03
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