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Ethiser posted:In a reality where Zack and Cloud make it to Midgar who defeats Sephiroth? Do the Turks and Rufus valiantly save the world or does Zack end up working for Avalanche down the line and pretty much reenacting the game in place of Cloud? If Cloud doesn't give Sephiroth Meteor who the gently caress HAS to save the world from him? The more immediate question is without Cloud to help them who keeps the crew of misfits from dying even faster when doing their terrorism?
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Apr 18, 2020 19:23
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I heard they removed Rufus' entire intro speech about ruling the world with fear instead of money. What is even his characterization now?
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Apr 18, 2020 19:24
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NikkolasKing posted:I heard they removed Rufus' entire intro speech about ruling the world with fear instead of money. Same as everyone elses characterization: Horny for Cloud. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVRPUfNoiYk I mean... what was his Fear speech in the original anyway? When did he ever try to rule with Fear? He at most didn't put up with Heideggars poo poo, and when we see home next, he's organizing the fight against WEAPONs and Sephiroth to save the planet.
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Apr 18, 2020 19:27
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NikkolasKing posted:I heard they removed Rufus' entire intro speech about ruling the world with fear instead of money. Being very, very, very pretty.
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Apr 18, 2020 19:29
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Mulva posted:If Cloud doesn't give Sephiroth Meteor who the gently caress HAS to save the world from him? If Sephiroth doesn’t get Meteor him and Jenova aren’t just gonna go live a nice quit life of peace. They are still malevolent super powered beings who actively want to destroy all life. Tifa would just have to come along for the first reactor mission to save the everyone.
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Apr 18, 2020 19:31
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Ethiser posted:In a reality where Zack and Cloud make it to Midgar who defeats Sephiroth? Do the Turks and Rufus valiantly save the world or does Zack end up working for Avalanche down the line and pretty much reenacting the game in place of Cloud? It would own if in the remakes Cloud starts getting disappearing hands ala Marty McFly with the realization that Zack surviving makes his entire existence unnecessary.
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Apr 18, 2020 19:33
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Then we could call the next game thread ZACK to the Future book it.
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Apr 18, 2020 19:34
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Zack's survival means different things depending on if it's the same timeline and history has changed, or it's a new timeline that's separate from the current one, I think. If it's a separate timeline then we might get flashes of, like, "what if Cloud never became a mercenary and helped Avalanche?" things. If it's the same timeline, my guess is that we're going to have a situation where history has changed but Cloud, Tifa, Barret, Aerith, and Red XIII remember it the old way--they'll remember events the way we saw them because they were in the weird Whisper dimension when all the changes occurred, and they'll be just as surprised by the new history as we will be. Incidentally that leaves the door open to Cloud and Zack meeting and both having their own Buster Swords, potentially leading to a hype Buster Sword vs. Buster Sword duel and maybe one of them dual wielding Buster Swords and honestly, that would be very dumb in the best and most fun way.
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Apr 18, 2020 19:36
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NikkolasKing posted:I heard they removed Rufus' entire intro speech about ruling the world with fear instead of money. The game makes a point of showing Rufus is someone who can see whispers, so it's pretty clear his characterization will be a little different from here on out. My guess is that at some point he'll see the same apocalyptic vision the party did and either: 1) Starts to question Shinra's role and whether it should exist, or 2) Freak out and start losing his mind trying to stop it. I'm also pretty sure a Shinra coup/civil war is going to happen at some point.
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Apr 18, 2020 19:38
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Rufus's actual characterization is that he's secretly much smarter than basically everyone else involved with Shinra. It would actually be kind of amazing if they do expand the party roster and have Rufus join the squad because how can he make dosh if Sephiroth destroys the world?
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Apr 18, 2020 19:45
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NikkolasKing posted:I heard they removed Rufus' entire intro speech about ruling the world with fear instead of money. Primal sex God.
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Apr 18, 2020 19:46
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Onmi posted:Again, Zack planned to work as a mercenary, it's entirely possible he wound up getting involved with Avalanche that way, if he did. It will be called Final Fantasy 7 Remake Remake.
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Apr 18, 2020 19:47
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PsychoInternetHawk posted:I'm also pretty sure a Shinra coup/civil war is going to happen at some point. Oh absolutely and I'm looking forward to it. I wonder if the game will spilt between the point of view of avalanche and Rufus and his turks. That'd be pretty sweet.
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Apr 18, 2020 19:51
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Just beat it. Loved the game but like many was thrown by them doing a reimagining in the last hour. Not like Japanese media doesn’t do these a lot but it’s usually obvious sooner That said I do not think Zack is alive and will meet the party and it’s just me but it’s never explained why cloud sees a flash forward of aerith dying right? Aerith and Sephiroth also 100% know what’s going on. Not sure if they did this before or what
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Apr 18, 2020 19:52
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It's expaned universe canon that Rufus used to fund AVALANCHE, hoping that they would kill his dad (I forget what spinoff this happens in, I think the one with the Turks) and Shinra covered it up. There's also sorts of ways that could be leveraged into having Rufus do whatever the plot wants him to do.
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Apr 18, 2020 19:53
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I went looking to see what super FF7 fan streamers/YouTubers think and came across Maximilian Dood's stream of the ending. I was really curious how he'd take it given what a huge fan of the original he is and he is insanely hyped for the next part. It's actually kind of fun to watch someone who's really super attached to the original hit that ending, realize that he has no idea where this is going from now on, and just get so excited that now he gets to speculate and wonder and interpret when he expected to just kinda wait for the next part. I normally don't care much about watching streamers but that was pretty fun to see.
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Apr 18, 2020 19:55
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PsychoInternetHawk posted:The game makes a point of showing Rufus is someone who can see whispers, so it's pretty clear his characterization will be a little different from here on out. My guess is that at some point he'll see the same apocalyptic vision the party did and either: Neither of those really fit with Rufus' characterization(either originally or what we see of him in the remake). His most defining character trait in the original was being completely, ridiculously unflappable. He shows mild concern when he sees that he's about to get hit in the face with an atomic explosion. That's it, the guy's completely unfazed by everything else. This is definitely intact in the remake, too, because his response to being disarmed and having a mentally unstable killing machine threaten to throw him off a building is just "nah, I don't think so, bye". Freaking out about anything isn't really in character. His aura of smugness is impenetrable. He's also not a good guy. In the original, the first impression that he consciously chooses to give is that he's someone who thought his dad, a man who killed a hundred thousand people for almost no reason and who oversaw the construction of a brutally authoritarian world government, was too soft on people. His whole opener is "if you thought Shinra was oppressive before, you ain't seen nothin yet." Funnily enough, he doesn't get much of a chance to actualize on this. He's kind of a weird character because he's a self-interested bad guy who ends up in a situation where what's best for him and what's best for everyone else end up being pretty much the same. He doesn't have time to brutalize the people he rules over for personal gain because the Planet's going to explode. This is a relatively common thing that pops up in fiction, but Rufus doesn't fall into the usual cliches for it. He never has a change of heart and becomes a good person. He never works with the protagonists. There is absolutely no understanding reached between them: Rufus is still a ruthless dictator and Shinra is still a terrible loving organization. He doesn't get to do his whole speech in this one, but the line about him owning SOLDIERs is a clear indicator that he's got pretty much the same worldview.
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Apr 18, 2020 20:07
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THE AWESOME GHOST posted:but it’s never explained why cloud sees a flash forward of aerith dying right? It's part of Sephiroth's plan to get the party to get rid of TIME GHOST PROBLEMS for him. It's presented with no context so Cloud assumes that keeping time ghosts alive is what will cause it. The party doesn't really have a grasp as to what the time ghosts actually are. Aerith seems to have a better idea than the rest, at least enough to try to preemptively let Cloud down gently ("Don't fall in love with me").
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Apr 18, 2020 20:08
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Funky Valentine posted:It's part of Sephiroth's plan to get the party to get rid of TIME GHOST PROBLEMS for him. It's presented with no context so Cloud assumes that keeping time ghosts alive is what will cause it. Man around the time I saw they changed the Jenova boss to “Dreamweaver” I was like no they are NOT pulling an FFX style you are a dream are they Especially since dream aerith said something like don’t fall in love because it’s not real
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Apr 18, 2020 20:37
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THE AWESOME GHOST posted:it’s just me but it’s never explained why cloud sees a flash forward of aerith dying right? Aerith and Sephiroth also 100% know what’s going on. Not sure if they did this before or what My guess for why Cloud got that flash-forward of Aerith dying when he fell into the church is because of his Jenova cells. I think they're going to do a thing where Jenova is not only a thing from out of space, but out of time as well, and so anyone with Jenova cells might have some slight ability to see the future/other timelines/whatever. That's just a guess on my part, though. The whole group gets flashes forward at the end when fighting the Whisper Harbinger because either it's trying to show them the future (and doing a very bad job of convincing them it's a good one), or it's just sort of randomly happening as they break it apart. They just keep seeing bits of the future as shards of the dying Harbinger touch them but they don't know how to interpret what they're seeing. THE AWESOME GHOST posted:Man around the time I saw they changed the Jenova boss to “Dreamweaver” I was like no they are NOT pulling an FFX style you are a dream are they I figured it was "Dreamweaver" because, as Red XIII mentioned at the start of the fight, it was just an illusion that was manifesting through Marco the Sephiroth clone guy. That dream Aerith scene is interesting. She might be saying "it's not real" because she's aware on some level that Cloud has some of Zack's emotions. On the other hand, apparently in Japanese, she doesn't say "It's not real," but instead, "It's useless to love me" or something along those lines.
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Apr 18, 2020 21:33
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THE AWESOME GHOST posted:Man around the time I saw they changed the Jenova boss to “Dreamweaver” I was like no they are NOT pulling an FFX style you are a dream are they I think it's just a more convenient way to explain Sephiroth appearing and the subsequent boss fight before you find out she was controlling Marco.
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Apr 18, 2020 21:36
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I wonder if Aerith is questioning her decision to defy their destiny at the end. Her last line--"I miss it. The steel sky."--definitely has more than one meaning. First it's a character thing for her, since she's spent almost her whole life in the slums, so that wide-open sky really is entirely foreign to her. But she also compared the freedom they'd get by defeating the Whispers to "a great, never-ending sky." I wonder if we're supposed to also read her final line as her questioning whether or not defeating the Whispers was the right thing to do.
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Apr 18, 2020 21:55
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Harrow posted:But she also compared the freedom they'd get by defeating the Whispers to "a great, never-ending sky." I wonder if we're supposed to also read her final line as her questioning whether or not defeating the Whispers was the right thing to do. That's why it would've been cool if the group showed any questioning, forethought, or concerns before having their ragtag bunch murder capital D Destiny.
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Apr 18, 2020 22:05
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I think FFXV has to be one of the only recent JRPGs to say Destiny is Good. FFXIII and FFVIIR are both apparently very much on the gently caress Destiny train. Maybe the Planet will decide Humans are a disease that needs to be wiped out in this timeline. It was considering it last time and maybe only Aerith puting in a vote for us saved everyone.
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Apr 18, 2020 22:15
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The Puppy Bowl posted:That's why it would've been cool if the group showed any questioning, forethought, or concerns before having their ragtag bunch murder capital D Destiny. Yeah, I agree with that. I think what could've worked would be if, instead of taking up a bunch of time in the Drum in Chapter 17, the whole Destiny's Crossroads thing had been a dungeon instead of just one big setpiece boss fight. That would've given them a lot more time to talk, comment on what's going on, question what they're doing but resolve to continue, etc.
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Apr 18, 2020 22:18
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I think one of the most interesting surprises was red xiii seeing his '500 years later' vision and saying this was from a timeline where humanity was indeed wiped out.
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Apr 18, 2020 22:40
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Zedsdeadbaby posted:I think one of the most interesting surprises was red xiii seeing his '500 years later' vision and saying this was from a timeline where humanity was indeed wiped out. He actually says it's a vision of a future "if we fail here today," meaning if they don't change their destiny, not necessarily if they fail to save the world from Meteor. It's even ambiguous whether he knows it's not a "bad" future or not. He just knows it's the future they're fated for if they don't get rid of the Whispers.
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Apr 18, 2020 22:42
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speaking of Aerith and the plate, I was replaying chapters and forgot about the line she has in chapter 9 about how she doesn't like the collapsed section between sectors 5 and 6 because you can still see the sky since they're still rebuilding the plate overhead I thought that was a neat detail to notice post-ending
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Apr 18, 2020 22:52
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Poor girl lives in a slum all her life, and this version is apparently aware that the one time she goes outside she's gonna get killed
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Apr 18, 2020 22:53
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Harrow posted:He actually says it's a vision of a future "if we fail here today," meaning if they don't change their destiny, not necessarily if they fail to save the world from Meteor. It's even ambiguous whether he knows it's not a "bad" future or not. He just knows it's the future they're fated for if they don't get rid of the Whispers. Yeah I mentioned earlier but I think they're definitely intending to play with dramatic irony and have the cast see things that they aren't sure how to interpret - it would be pretty easy to take Red's vision at a glance or Aerith's future and go "oh poo poo we need to stop this" without realizing that it's part of a "good" outcome. Or to have a moment of hubris and assume that their foreknowledge means they can "beat" destiny and do things better this time. I think it's definitely setting things up some kind of classically tragic course of events.
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Apr 18, 2020 23:02
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Rabid Snake posted:The time thing would’ve worked with FF8 and not pissed so many people off. The whole plot of FF8 involves time compression. Yeah, I feel like the problems I have with whispers and time shenanigans wouldn't have bothered me if it was FF8 since FF8 is already about that stuff. https://twitter.com/mattbodega/status/1251535955183321091?s=21 This is pretty much how I feel about the game.
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Apr 18, 2020 23:09
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I think there's a degree to which it can work if it's treated as the metaphorical thing that it could be and doesn't become the focus of the rest of the remake's parts. It's possible the Whispers are really just sort of a metaphorical representation of the conflict the creators felt between wanting to make something better than they made in 1997, but knowing that would mean significant changes and feeling unsure how to thread that needle. They had to know players would feel similar apprehension. So they use the Whispers to make that conflict a literal one and conclude the story by saying that freedom is worth the risk. If what happens from here onward is a retelling of Final Fantasy VII, but with significant changes because it's the version of the story they'd tell if they were making it as a new story today, then I'm completely on board for that. Maybe they needed the Whispers in this game just to explore that conflict they felt and that they knew we'd feel. Obviously they're going to have to address, at some point, the apparent foreknowledge Sephiroth, Aerith, and to a lesser extent Cloud have, and why Rufus is one of the people who could see the Whispers, and things like that, but having that as one element of a story that's still mostly, y'know, a retelling of Final Fantasy VII is cool with me and could be good. If, instead, it's going to be completely preoccupied with a sort of self-aware "remake about being a remake" thing, full of meta teasing and maybe some explicit timeline fuckery taking center stage, I'm probably not going to enjoy that all that much. Anyway speaking of FFVIII, I'm currently torn between grabbing FFVII on Switch for a replay, or getting the FFVIII remaster. I never finished FFVIII and recall not liking it but if any FFVIII fans want to make a case for it, I'm open to giving it another shot. Harrow fucked around with this message at 23:34 on Apr 18, 2020 |
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Apr 18, 2020 23:32
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Harrow posted:I think there's a degree to which it can work if it's treated as the metaphorical thing that it could be and doesn't become the focus of the rest of the remake's parts. It's possible the Whispers are really just sort of a metaphorical representation of the conflict the creators felt between wanting to make something better than they made in 1997, but knowing that would mean significant changes and feeling unsure how to thread that needle. They had to know players would feel similar apprehension. So they use the Whispers to make that conflict a literal one and conclude the story by saying that freedom is worth the risk. I love VIII for how utterly batshit the story gets, and it is very satisfying to break over your knee via the card game.
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Apr 18, 2020 23:35
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I was going to jump to X/X-2. I last played VIII when it first came out and I never did finish it. If it's worth my time, it looks like it's cheap enough to pick up if people think it's worth the time.
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Apr 18, 2020 23:36
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X and X-2 are both great and have two of my three favorite FF combat systems--X has a great turn-based system, and X-2 has the best iteration of classic ATB they ever did. (The third is FF7R, for its crazy fun action combat)
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Apr 18, 2020 23:40
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Mordiceius posted:Yeah, I feel like the problems I have with whispers and time shenanigans wouldn't have bothered me if it was FF8 since FF8 is already about that stuff. FF7R needed a hour and half of codec conversation at the end explaining the plot to us. FFVIII was nothing but a big causality loop. This game is about remaking Final Fantasy VII so they don't have to release the exact same game 23 years later but with better graphics and voice acting.
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Apr 18, 2020 23:51
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Proteus Jones posted:I was going to jump to X/X-2. I last played VIII when it first came out and I never did finish it. If it's worth my time, it looks like it's cheap enough to pick up if people think it's worth the time. I think Spira is the most imaginative and unique setting of all the Final Fantasy games, and both X and X-2 have great combat systems in their own way. For 20 year old games, the graphics and gameplay still hold up very nicely in HD. The thing you have to keep in mind with FFX is that it was the very first time a game of this magnitude had full voice acting. It's become kind of a meme now but the English cast really did the best job they could having to match the Japanese dub line for line with no precedent.
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Apr 18, 2020 23:58
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Also that memed-to-death scene with Tidus doing the bad laugh is actually perfectly fine in context, like, he's supposed to be forcing a laugh there. He and Yuna are doing intentionally bad fake laughs until they start to actually laugh because they're doing funny fake laughs in an attempt to cheer themselves up.
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Apr 19, 2020 00:01
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e; ^ Yeah it's meant to be a bad, forced laugh. There's also a video Tidus's VA did a few years ago where he was like "Uh I may not be the greatest actor in history but I know my business well enough to do fake and real laughs, that was the whole point." X and X-2 are both absolutely fantastic yeah, I still think X is the best but Girl Band Lesbian Road Trip is an all-time classic. Harrow posted:Yeah, I agree with that. I think what could've worked would be if, instead of taking up a bunch of time in the Drum in Chapter 17, the whole Destiny's Crossroads thing had been a dungeon instead of just one big setpiece boss fight. That would've given them a lot more time to talk, comment on what's going on, question what they're doing but resolve to continue, etc. Whilst I don't have any big problems with how things were, this would definitely have been preferable and more sensible. Harrow posted:I wonder if Aerith is questioning her decision to defy their destiny at the end. Her last line--"I miss it. The steel sky."--definitely has more than one meaning. First it's a character thing for her, since she's spent almost her whole life in the slums, so that wide-open sky really is entirely foreign to her. She's actually referring to 1994's critically acclaimed cyberpunk point and click game Beneath a Steel Sky. 
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Apr 19, 2020 00:09
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exquisite tea posted:I think Spira is the most imaginative and unique setting of all the Final Fantasy games, and both X and X-2 have great combat systems in their own way. For 20 year old games, the graphics and gameplay still hold up very nicely in HD. The thing you have to keep in mind with FFX is that it was the very first time a game of this magnitude had full voice acting. It's become kind of a meme now but the English cast really did the best job they could having to match the Japanese dub line for line with no precedent. Yeah reading about how they had to match the length of the Japanese lines with 100% accuracy or else the entire game would crash and poo poo gave me a new appreciation for it - it could have been significantly worse than it ended up being. Spira is definitely a cool setting, I think it still narrowly gets edged out by FFIX for me but it's close.
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Apr 19, 2020 00:10
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