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ulmont posted:You are really badly misrepresenting the Georgia 2001 flag. When that flag was introduced, Georgia still flew the 1956 (aka, soon after Brown v. Board of Education) flag, shown below. There was no need in 2001 to "sneak" the Confederate flag in. burn it down again
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Apr 18, 2020 17:39
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ulmont posted:You are really badly misrepresenting the Georgia 2001 flag. When that flag was introduced, Georgia still flew the 1956 (aka, soon after Brown v. Board of Education) flag, shown below. There was no need in 2001 to "sneak" the Confederate flag in. the governor in 2001, roy barnes, is the last democrat governor of georgia. there was always pressure from activists to change the flag to be less racist. barnes responded to this in a clumsy way, with the "compromise flag" listed above - the idea being that the symbol is still on the flag, it's just real small. also we list all the past flags of georgia to make things fair, except that includes other past confederate flags. obviously this is very dumb and offensive both to the flag change and flag keep faction. georgia governers do not have a great track record of good decisions so barnes loses election in 2003, for reasons other than the flag thing but the flag thing is definitely a big reason turnout in rural georgia was huge and hostile. the new governor, sonny perdue, wants to change the flag back to the racist flag because that's what his electorate was demanding. he won't just decree it though, he will put it up to a referendum to wash his hands of the decision. the options on the table are the old racist flag, the current compromise flag, and a new flag which is less outwardly racist but still kinda racist. business leaders, ever trying to stay the hand of the GOP from shooting themselves in the foot with racist ideas, convince the legislature to remove the old very racist flag as an option. so the people of georgia get to vote on the very ugly compromise flag or the less ugly stealth racism flag now, let me tell you about the time georgia had three governors at once and they were changing the locks on each other at the state capital...
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Apr 18, 2020 18:01
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A lot of south and central America would probably be stronger and more competitive on the international stage if they stayed united, but then maintaining unity would require their various attempts at federal governments to be a lot more accommodating than they ever were. It's not great either way. Probably the biggest tragedy out of the disunity is all the wars from the independent nations fighting over resources that they could've otherwise shared, although that still wouldn't prevent civil wars or the imperial expansion of Brazil, although it could've deterred other various foreign interventions.  It kinda reminds me of how with places like China and Persia, you have this huge expanse of area that throughout history tends to keep drifting back together into one huge lump despite being broken to pieces. South/Central America seems more like Europe, constantly bucking unity. Although since that's looking at the course of over a thousand years, who knows what patterns would emerge if you could zoom out further. Lord Hydronium posted:Worst aesthetically is anything with the state's name on it (except California) Technically, that's not a state name on it, that's the name of a country that existed for all of 25 days before blinking out of existence. And since I give Hawaii had a good, long respectable history of independence, but its flag is weirdly subordinate to the UK, even if it bucked the title of "Sandwich Islands" that the English tried to call them. Technically the US's states don't really make any sense as administrative divisions, since some are so big and some are so small with wildly varying population densities, and the Senate gives disproportionate power to the more sparsely populated middle of the country that was only really divided into so many states to maintain a political balance over extremely dated issues, but there's nothing we can do about that now. ulmont posted:You are really badly misrepresenting the Georgia 2001 flag. When that flag was introduced, Georgia still flew the 1956 (aka, soon after Brown v. Board of Education) flag, shown below. There was no need in 2001 to "sneak" the Confederate flag in. The real sneaky confederate flag is Arkansas.
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Apr 18, 2020 18:26
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SlothfulCobra posted:It kinda reminds me of how with places like China and Persia, you have this huge expanse of area that throughout history tends to keep drifting back together into one huge lump despite being broken to pieces. South/Central America seems more like Europe, constantly bucking unity. We tried, alright?
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Apr 18, 2020 19:41
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Byzantine posted:We tried, alright? nice user name / post combo. Also failed political unity projects in Latin America are quite different from Europe's failed projects. For one, back in the early 19th century, there were lots of logistical challenges to overcome in creating a unified polity over large stretches of distance in South and Middle America, what with dense jungles, a sweltering climate and high mountain ranges. Second, well, the Monroe Doctrine. That's not to say dumb political decisions didn't play a role in South America, because a state like Brazil clearly was able to carve out a giant slice of the continent and keep its hands on it (not saying that was a good thing, by the way).
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Apr 18, 2020 22:36
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My favorite part of Latin American history is that immediately after the American revolution one of the Spanish King's advisors recognized that this would cause problems with the Latin American colonies and advised him to create basically a commonwealth agreement like what the British Empire would later do with Canada and Australia where the nations would be given their independence but remain united around a single king and the Spanish King just went "lol nope not necessary" and got his rear end handed to him for the next 30 years after that.
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Apr 19, 2020 00:50
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BIG FLUFFY DOG posted:My favorite part of Latin American history is that immediately after the American revolution one of the Spanish King's advisors recognized that this would cause problems with the Latin American colonies and advised him to create basically a commonwealth agreement like what the British Empire would later do with Canada and Australia where the nations would be given their independence but remain united around a single king and the Spanish King just went "lol nope not necessary" and got his rear end handed to him for the next 30 years after that. Also after the Napoleonic Wars he wanted to go back and reconquer them but the soldiers he was going to send all revolted because they knew they’d probably just die of yellow fever or something
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Apr 19, 2020 00:54
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Badger of Basra posted:Also after the Napoleonic Wars he wanted to go back and reconquer them but the soldiers he was going to send all revolted because they knew they’d probably just die of yellow fever or something Also Mexico had a significant part of its population have royalist sympathies so its revolutionaries actually gave the King a second chance and tried to create a dual monarchy arrangement and if the King declined give it to another member of his dynasty and then the King refused to even entertain the possibilty of it even after he was losing the rest of Latin America left and right. Spanish royalty from 1790 to 1830 were some of the dumbest motherfuckers to ever live.
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Apr 19, 2020 01:13
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They weren't great a century earlier at the height of Hapsburg inbreeding either.
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Apr 19, 2020 03:42
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Luckily, they were brilliant in the early twentieth century. Franz Ferdinand repeatedly paraded in front of the least competent assassin squad that Bosnia could assemble until they killed him. After one of the conspirators missed with the bomb and tried drowning himself in a foot deep river, Gavrilo Princip had given up on the assassination plot and went to grab some burek. Imagine his surprise when, outside the burek shop, there was the hated Habsburg. He dutifully obliged by filling him and the missus with lead. And the Habsburgs pretty much single handedly precipitated the ensuing crisis into a world war by bungling the diplomatic process and undermining all the peace efforts of all the other monarchies of Europe unwilling to go to war over Serbia. A brilliant lot, I say.
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Apr 19, 2020 07:39
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Take the plunge! Okay! posted:all the peace efforts of all the other monarchies of Europe unwilling to go to war lol
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Apr 19, 2020 09:53
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Take the plunge! Okay! posted:Luckily, they were brilliant in the early twentieth century. Franz Ferdinand repeatedly paraded in front of the least competent assassin squad that Bosnia could assemble until they killed him. After one of the conspirators missed with the bomb and tried drowning himself in a foot deep river, Gavrilo Princip had given up on the assassination plot and went to grab some burek. Imagine his surprise when, outside the burek shop, there was the hated Habsburg. He dutifully obliged by filling him and the missus with lead. Franz Ferdinand insisted on being sewed into his clothing each day by servants so that it had the tightest fit possible. This meant that when he was shot the doctor's couldn't easily get his shirt off to operate on him. If he had worn clothes like a normal person the doctor who attended him could have operated on him easily and he probably would have survived.
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Apr 19, 2020 10:31
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https://twitter.com/TerribleMaps/status/1251217319667339267
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Apr 19, 2020 11:15
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BIG FLUFFY DOG posted:Franz Ferdinand insisted on being sewed into his clothing each day by servants so that it had the tightest fit possible. This meant that when he was shot the doctor's couldn't easily get his shirt off to operate on him. If he had worn clothes like a normal person the doctor who attended him could have operated on him easily and he probably would have survived. This sounds like a sex thing to me. European history could have been quite different if only he'd found a nice sensible gimp suit to wear.
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Apr 19, 2020 11:40
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BIG FLUFFY DOG posted:Franz Ferdinand insisted on being sewed into his clothing each day by servants so that it had the tightest fit possible. This meant that when he was shot the doctor's couldn't easily get his shirt off to operate on him. If he had worn clothes like a normal person the doctor who attended him could have operated on him easily and he probably would have survived. Am I allowed to find this really funny
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Apr 19, 2020 12:15
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Milo and POTUS posted:Am I allowed to find this really funny It is permitted. The entire assassination was a big slapstick joke and the punchline was 20 million dead men
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Apr 19, 2020 12:20
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Take the plunge! Okay! posted:It is permitted. The entire assassination was a big slapstick joke and the punchline was 20 million dead men The rise of Nazism was largely a reaction to the outcome of World War 1. It is entirely reasonable to add the death toll from World War 2 as well as the holocaust to the 20 million dead from one Austrian's love of very tight pants.
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Apr 19, 2020 12:27
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BIG FLUFFY DOG posted:The rise of Nazism was largely a reaction to the outcome of World War 1. Given the death squads roaming around during WW1, Austrian proto-fascist rhetoric (one thing which was often noted in WW2 by certain resistance members from areas formerly under AH control - just how loving familiar the Nazi rhetoric was, since it was basically just a better formulated and differently targeted version of the poo poo they've already heard from Austrian officers in WW1), and Europe's history of casual genocide, I'm going to disagree. That poo poo was always there. WW1 was just what made the mask drop.
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Apr 19, 2020 13:37
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Milo and POTUS posted:Am I allowed to find this really funny It is mandatory.
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Apr 19, 2020 14:18
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Foreverial Tiedup Franz
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Apr 19, 2020 14:40
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my dad posted:Given the death squads roaming around during WW1, Austrian proto-fascist rhetoric (one thing which was often noted in WW2 by certain resistance members from areas formerly under AH control - just how loving familiar the Nazi rhetoric was, since it was basically just a better formulated and differently targeted version of the poo poo they've already heard from Austrian officers in WW1), and Europe's history of casual genocide, I'm going to disagree. That poo poo was always there. WW1 was just what made the mask drop. Yeah, Nazi ideology was not invented whole-cloth by a mediocre painter who inhaled too much combat gases in the WW1 trenches. The underlying ideas of racial supremacy and need for lebensraum were already strong factors in making the Axis powers push for war, cf. Septemberprogramm.
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Apr 19, 2020 14:46
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You all seem to be arguing that Germans naturally follow a special path of some kind which I'm sure is a not in any way discredited historiographic theory! The Nazis took control of Germany because of the Depression, by the way.
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Apr 19, 2020 14:57
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BIG FLUFFY DOG posted:Franz Ferdinand insisted on being sewed into his clothing each day by servants so that it had the tightest fit possible. This meant that when he was shot the doctor's couldn't easily get his shirt off to operate on him. If he had worn clothes like a normal person the doctor who attended him could have operated on him easily and he probably would have survived. What, really? How long does it take to so a person into their clothes? e: you guys, I'm asking for a friend, obviously Tree Bucket fucked around with this message at 15:35 on Apr 19, 2020 |
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Apr 19, 2020 15:33
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In hindsight The Federal Republic of Central America was a silly plan. In Costa Rica they say that they didn't even get word the Republic was being disbanded until months after the end, because communication was so slow between them and the capital Guatemala City. quote:In practice, the Federation faced insurmountable problems, and the union slid into civil war between 1838 and 1840.[6] Its disintegration began when Nicaragua separated from the federation on November 5, 1838, followed by Honduras and Costa Rica[7] (other sources give Nicaragua's secession date as April 30).[8] Because of the chaotic nature of this period an exact date of disestablishment does not exist, but on May 31, 1838, the Congress met to declare that the provinces were free to create their own independent republics.[8] In reality, this merely legally acknowledged the process of disintegration that had already begun.[9] The union effectively ended in 1840, by which time four of its five states had declared independence. The official end came only upon El Salvador's self-proclamation of the establishment of an independent republic in February 1841.
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Apr 19, 2020 16:16
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Federal Republic of Central America, aka the United Provinces of Central America, aka the United States of Central America, aka Maybe the lack of an agreed upon name for the country should have been a warning sign.
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Apr 19, 2020 18:15
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Teriyaki Hairpiece posted:You all seem to be arguing that Germans naturally follow a special path of some kind which I'm sure is a not in any way discredited historiographic theory! No. And I do not appreciate being deliberately misinterpreted like this.
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Apr 19, 2020 19:23
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BIG FLUFFY DOG posted:Franz Ferdinand insisted on being sewed into his clothing each day by servants so that it had the tightest fit possible. This meant that when he was shot the doctor's couldn't easily get his shirt off to operate on him. If he had worn clothes like a normal person the doctor who attended him could have operated on him easily and he probably would have survived. What is it with royals and sewn-on costumes? (See Bal des Ardents)
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Apr 19, 2020 19:27
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Fascist movements popped up outside of Germany, Spain, and Italy, but they didn't manage to take hold. Partially because after Nazi Germany popped up, governments that had considered the movements nonthreatening before cracked down on them. If the new movements for persecuting minorities hadn't started creating international consequences, I'm not sure people would've united nearly as much against them, and I think Neonazi movements know that as well, because you'll every so often see them trying to argue that whatever Hitler did within his borders was fine, but then trying to expand that beyond germany was the real problem. (which is both tactical criticism and part of a larger series of arguments against the scourge of "globalism")
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Apr 19, 2020 21:25
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SlothfulCobra posted:Fascist movements popped up outside of Germany, Spain, and Italy, but they didn't manage to take hold. Partially because after Nazi Germany popped up, governments that had considered the movements nonthreatening before cracked down on them.
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Apr 19, 2020 21:52
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Angry Salami posted:Federal Republic of Central America, aka the United Provinces of Central America, aka the United States of Central America, aka Maybe the lack of an agreed upon name for the country should have been a warning sign. Its too long but this is great material for a thread subtitle.
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Apr 19, 2020 22:03
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A Buttery Pastry posted:Hitler's own personal hell is a bunch of "degenerate" American neo-nazis yelling at him for being a globalist. Also, Russian Nazis just simply existing.
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Apr 19, 2020 23:20
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The one thing Nazis love to do almost as much as oppressing minorities is throw other Nazis under the bus for not sticking to their specific doctrine.
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Apr 19, 2020 23:37
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Teriyaki Hairpiece posted:You all seem to be arguing that Germans naturally follow a special path of some kind which I'm sure is a not in any way discredited historiographic theory! I'm no historical scholar, but I don't think saying that one archduke getting killed is more deterministic of historical outcomes than decades of socio-economic, nationalistic and geo-political developments is the next big step in historiography.
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Apr 19, 2020 23:53
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hmm not sure if this map is good or terrible
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Apr 20, 2020 00:36
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Squalid posted:hmm not sure if this map is good or terrible The Orthodox band in Finland is all sorts of wrong so probably terrible.
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Apr 20, 2020 00:41
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3D Megadoodoo posted:The Orthodox band in Finland is all sorts of wrong so probably terrible. yah i was wondering wtf is up with that
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Apr 20, 2020 01:02
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"Christians from various churches" 
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Apr 20, 2020 01:09
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is that a tiny shiite community in the middle of the mormon blob
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Apr 20, 2020 01:12
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Noted Christian country Bosnia Also I like how Lithuania gets a Catholic/Orthodox split but they couldn't be bothered to do the same with Germany. What exactly is "Christians from various Churches" supposed to mean, anyway? It kind of looks like "Calvinists" to me, but not including them under Protestants is dumb.
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Apr 20, 2020 01:16
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a fatguy baldspot posted:is that a tiny shiite community in the middle of the mormon blob Thats the Great Salt Lake which is one of two lakes along with Lake Victoria that aren't inland seas which are apparently notable enough to feature on this map.
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Apr 20, 2020 02:51
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