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Cojawfee posted:Maybe it means that the universe is both deterministic and you can still make choices to slightly change the outcome. Cojawfee posted:He's dead forever. Katie ran the simulation up until he died and then copied that into a new simulation starting at the beginning of the show. So I guess like in the Prestige. One is created, one dies. The one that was created feels like he's the original, but the original is very much dead. If there's any such thing as a soul or whatever, the original one is gone. Mr Shiny Pants posted:The wokeness of it all was just too much: all the diversity!
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Apr 19, 2020 11:53
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I think there's a way to interpret Lily's actions as deterministic and paradox causing. Deus was predicting that Lily would watch the simulation of her final moments and adjust her behavior as a result. If Lily watches herself shoot Forest, she 'chooses' to defy the simulation by throwing the gun out of the lift. Therefore, Deus has to predict that Lily throws the gun out of the lift. But when Lily sees that she throws the gun out of lift, she 'chooses' to defy the simulation by keeping the gun and ends up using it. And then Deus just has to loop this forever which even with near infinite processing power causes the system to fail. Lily isn't displaying freewill. Determinism dictates that Lily always defies the simulation which creates a paradox that overwhelms the simulation. ghostwritingduck fucked around with this message at 13:02 on Apr 19, 2020 |
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Apr 19, 2020 13:00
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Tiggum posted:That is literally nonsense. Welcome to Alex Garland's Deus.
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Apr 19, 2020 13:21
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ghostwritingduck posted:I think there's a way to interpret Lily's actions as deterministic and paradox causing. Deus was predicting that Lily would watch the simulation of her final moments and adjust her behavior as a result. User A seeing the future in a deterministic world wouldn't give you a paradox because that future was always predicated on User A seeing it. It's only a paradox because our minds can't square determinism with our conception of free will. Ham fucked around with this message at 13:33 on Apr 19, 2020 |
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Apr 19, 2020 13:29
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Ham posted:User A seeing the future in a deterministic world wouldn't give you a paradox because the future outcome was always predicated on User A seeing it. It's only a paradox because our minds can't square determinism with our conception of free will. Write out how Lily observes a film of her watching the simulation and then contradicting the simulations prediction.
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Apr 19, 2020 13:46
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ghostwritingduck posted:Write out how Lily observes a film of her watching the simulation and then contradicting the simulations prediction. Lily can't contradict the simulation except as follows: - Lily has a soul that isn't affected by causality or the laws of the universe, this soul object can magically affect the way she interacts with the universe around her. - The simulation is imperfect for whatever reason (lack of data on all sub-atomic particles / universal laws not accounted for) and as such gives off wrong predictions. - The universe is actually truly random as posited by the Copenhagen interpretation and the random prediction seen by Lily was useless. - All possible outcomes of subatomic particle interaction are realized in a world (many worlds), Lily just happened to see a divergent future prediction. Show picked that first one. To try and see it from another angle, replace Lily with a computer. If the computer sees its code running 5 seconds ahead, it will interpret the code in a very specific manner according to its design and software that will inevitably lead to running that exact code 5 seconds later. The computer has no choice in the matter. Ham fucked around with this message at 14:04 on Apr 19, 2020 |
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Apr 19, 2020 13:59
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Ham posted:Lily can't contradict the simulation except as follows: I'm proposing the simulation is imperfect. It's coded in a way that can't account for an infinite loop. The simulation is accurately predicting that a Lily without freewill always does the apposite of the simulation shown. Katie and Forest are religious zealots unable to adjust their code to account for an infinite loop. Instead they see it as accurately predicting the end times. The infinite loop assumes that Lily has no free will. Edit: Complicating this, I think the simulation was intentionally flawed by Forest as a way to get his family back. There's plenty of evidence to suggest Forest knew that everything was going to be ok (for him) and that he would be resurrected. ghostwritingduck fucked around with this message at 14:40 on Apr 19, 2020 |
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Apr 19, 2020 14:25
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Ham posted:To try and see it from another angle, replace Lily with a computer. If the computer sees its code running 5 seconds ahead, it will interpret the code in a very specific manner according to its design and software that will inevitably lead to running that exact code 5 seconds later. The computer has no choice in the matter. This is the loop: Lily watches simulation and does the opposite of the simulation so adjust simulation to match what Lily is going to do. Lily watches corrected simulation and she does does the opposite so adjust simulation to match what Lily is going to do. Lily watches corrected simulation and she does does the opposite so adjust simulation to match what Lily is going to do. Lily watches corrected simulation and she does does the opposite so adjust simulation to match what Lily is going to do. Lily watches corrected simulation and she does does the opposite so adjust simulation to match what Lily is going to do. Lily watches corrected simulation and she does does the opposite so adjust simulation to match what Lily is going to do. Lily watches corrected simulation and she does does the opposite so adjust simulation to match what Lily is going to do...
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Apr 19, 2020 14:46
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Yeah, I think that the machine never was perfect at predicting anything in the first place. It only played out perfectly for Katie, Forrest and the rest of Devs crew, because they were the kinds of people that would perfectly follow whatever some dumb computer would show them. Katie pretty much let Lyndon die for nothing, because she's the kind of person that would believe that it's inevitable. The prediction breakdown that happens after the events of the last episode is the machine trying to adjust for Lily trying to change the outcome in an infinite loop. All others would never think of doing something like this, so it never happened before, it's only when Lily sees the screen for the first time. I mean, during the dam scene and Forrest's family accident, we literally see other possibilities play out, so the show is telling us that other outcomes are possible.
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Apr 19, 2020 15:34
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Any explanation that relies on the computer not being able to accurately predict the future kind of eliminates the entire point of the show. "What if there was a machine that could perfectly predict the future except it's broken and actually doesn't?" What kind of a dumb question is that?
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Apr 19, 2020 15:53
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I liked the show up until the last episode but I expected the last episode to fail anyway. The show a had chance to do something different there and reject free will but it HAD to go the expected route and make free will possible. Having it end without free will and no second life in the simulation would have been a unique and interesting ending. Instead we got a happy hollywood ending. A deterministic ending would have been scary to me and to most people so the show avoided it for the happy end.
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Apr 19, 2020 16:43
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Tiggum posted:Any explanation that relies on the computer not being able to accurately predict the future kind of eliminates the entire point of the show. "What if there was a machine that could perfectly predict the future except it's broken and actually doesn't?" What kind of a dumb question is that? But the computer does predict the future, just not in the way Forrest wants. The method to get there is not always identical (see: Katie walking dejected out of her class versus Katie throwing her binders at the floor in rage versus Katie walking out unperturbed), but the outcome is the same (Forrest hires Katie to join Amara). It's the same thing that happens in the scene with Lyndon. How he falls differs from simulation to simulation but he does, always, fall. Forrest built the machine to predict the most future, to demonstrate that all choices are meaningless and everyone is operating on a track. He wants to show that free will is an illusion and that no one has a choice, something he explains again to Lily when she confronts him in the projection room. Almost all the people at Devs have accepted this worldview, falling into a nihilistic funk where they believe that nothing they do has meaning. Lily demonstrates that this is false. Even if we always wind up at the same destination, our choices still do matter. She makes the improbable choice not to shoot Forrest, despite all she has seen, and sends the world skittering off onto a separate timeline that the Devs machine cannot predict. QuoProQuid fucked around with this message at 16:49 on Apr 19, 2020 |
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Apr 19, 2020 16:46
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QuoProQuid posted:But the computer does predict the future, just not in the way Forrest wants. The method to get there is not always identical (see: Katie walking dejected out of her class versus Katie throwing her binders at the floor in rage versus Katie walking out unperturbed), but the outcome is the same (Forrest hires Katie to join Amara). It's the same thing that happens in the scene with Lyndon. How he falls differs from simulation to simulation but he does, always, fall.
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Apr 19, 2020 16:51
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Tiggum posted:That is literally nonsense. Sorry my idea doesn't fit into your idea of something we'll never be able to prove
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Apr 19, 2020 16:54
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Cojawfee posted:Sorry my idea doesn't fit into your idea of something we'll never be able to prove It's not unprovable, it's impossible by definition. If the universe is deterministic then you can't "make choices to slightly change the outcome" because that would mean that the universe was not deterministic.
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Apr 19, 2020 16:57
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^Yep, can't have free will and absolutely no free will at the same time. That would make no sense.
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Apr 19, 2020 17:13
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Tiggum posted:Sorry, but this is nonsense. You literally cannot have free will and determinism. What you're talking about is some kind of supernatural force (ie. fate or destiny). Sorry. I'm struggling a bit with words here. As I understand it, in the world of Devs, there is no definitive past, present, or future. The machine extrapolates all possible pasts that could have led to the present. The machine also identifies all possible futures and shows the most likely extrapolation (with Lyndon's formula) or a mishmash of all futures (without Lyndon's formula). Each choice in the universe of Devs schisms the timeline in some way, even if that change leads to a functionally identical outcome. From their days watching Lily shoot Forrest over and over, Forrest and Katie have come to believe that this means existence is deterministic. This worldview coincidentally conforms with Forrest's notion that he's not culpable for his actions. But there is no one world. Lily shooting Forrest is the most likely future in many worlds, but it is not the only future and Lily can still make a choice (even if it means she still dies), which puts their world on a different trajectory than all the other iterations of Devs in the multiverse. The accumulation of errors that result from the machine trying to figure out what happens in this extremely improbable future causes it to break. I believe both the lecture scene and Lyndon's presentation hinted at this.
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Apr 19, 2020 17:18
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Tiggum posted:It's not unprovable, it's impossible by definition. If the universe is deterministic then you can't "make choices to slightly change the outcome" because that would mean that the universe was not deterministic. The universe is still deterministic, it's just that Forrest is completely wrong and Deus doesn't accurately predict it, because it can't account for people changing their mind based on the machine's predictions, because it sends it into an infinite loop. Lily didn't violate any laws of nature or determinism, she just found a fault in the machine.
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Apr 19, 2020 17:33
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QuoProQuid posted:But there is no one world. Lily shooting Forrest is the most likely future in many worlds, but it is not the only future and Lily can still make a choice (even if it means she still dies), which puts their world on a different trajectory than all the other iterations of Devs in the multiverse. The accumulation of errors that result from the machine trying to figure out what happens in this extremely improbable future causes it to break. grate deceiver posted:The universe is still deterministic, it's just that Forrest is completely wrong and Deus doesn't accurately predict it, because it can't account for people changing their mind based on the machine's predictions, because it sends it into an infinite loop. Lily didn't violate any laws of nature or determinism, she just found a fault in the machine.
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Apr 19, 2020 19:05
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Tiggum posted:It's not at all clear whether the real world is deterministic (and the machine doesn't work) or many worlds is correct (and the machine broke for unexplained reasons) or Forrest was just entirely wrong and the machine was never doing what they thought it was doing. The many worlds are only confirmed to exist inside the simulation. Reality remains a mystery. We know that adjusting the machine to account for many worlds made it appear to work better, but it still broke. I'm not sure I understand the second point. The show seems to come firmly down on the view that Lyndon was right and many worlds do exist both in its filmmaking (all those scenes of alternate Katies and Lyndons) and in its narrative (the machine only starts working when Lyndon throws out Forrest's one-world determinism and switches to the Everett interpretation). The machine breaks because this version of Lily made a highly improbable choice (one akin to "the Pope converting to Islam") that schismed the show off the reality that the Devs machine is able to project. QuoProQuid fucked around with this message at 19:15 on Apr 19, 2020 |
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Apr 19, 2020 19:08
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grate deceiver posted:The universe is still deterministic, it's just that Forrest is completely wrong and Deus doesn't accurately predict it, because it can't account for people changing their mind based on the machine's predictions, because it sends it into an infinite loop. Lily didn't violate any laws of nature or determinism, she just found a fault in the machine. This doesn't work because humans (and particle interactions?) aren't capable of making infinite adjustments to the predictions. From a human standpoint, at some point a person is going to get tired or run out of time or whatever and stop adjusting to the predictions, at which point the prediction locks, in which case a prediction can be made from the start because there is an outcome. Additionally, if the machine is based on particle interactions alone, then you can't "change your mind" because your mind is constructed of particles bouncing around. Presumably someone versed in the theories can correct me if I get this wrong: Typically a multiverse is depicted as a branching tree: at each decision point the tree gets two new branches and creates two new universes; thus, if you "go down the tree" you can pick a different branch and follow it (via time travel magic) but you can't really go forward(?) because all the branches haven't happened yet, and the universe we live in hasn't been determined. This model is not in the show at all In the show, the universe Forrest [u[wants[/u] to prove is a fully grown single bamboo shoot: One universe, everything determined, one path. What will happen is "known" because it's predetermined - you could get in a magic box and time travel to a future or past point of the timeline and it would be "your timeline" which already accounted for your time travel. This model produces the grainy prediction because a prediction machine can't perfectly predict the universe because the machine itself is part of the universe ("you'd need a machine as big as the universe" is stated at some point). The universe the show ends on (barring Lily being magic) is a bamboo forest: One where there are an infinite number of parallel universes containing every possible outcome, but each one is already predetermined. What the show seemed to do is say that this is the correct model, and by assuming it the prediction machine is able to error correct and create a perfect-looking prediction. So the clear predictions are probably very accurate to the Devs universe, but may contain some errors because it's pulling "wrong" information from parallel universes. Free will still has no value here because Lily and others aren't changing their minds. Maybe an argument could be made that the prediction machine, by peering magically peering into other universes, "contaminates" our universe with this information/particle interactions, but it really shouldn't be much, and more importantly, it shouldn't result in a specific event that it can't see past; instead, it would become less accurate the further out it looks (because of errors) but as the predictions approach the present they become more accurate. The show explicitly depicts this accuracy in the 7th episode with the one-second delay and IMO it really mangles a lot of the "cult/zealot" arguments because the other characters seemed horrified by being predicted and were trying to "beat" the machine. Further, that "wrong" information does not seem to matter because Katie and Forrest (and others?) were operating on knowledge from the grainy predictions which are correct for our universe. They may be fuzzy because the machine can't perfectly predict every particle but what it can predict should be correct.
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Apr 19, 2020 19:14
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QuoProQuid posted:I'm not sure I understand the second point. The show seems to come firmly down on the view that Lyndon was right and many worlds do exist both in its filmmaking (all those scenes of alternate Katies and Lyndons) and in its narrative (the machine only starts working when Lyndon throws out Forrest's one-world determinism and switches to the Everett interpretation). The machine breaks because this version of Lily made a highly improbable choice (one akin to "the Pope converting to Islam") that schismed the show off the reality that the Devs machine is able to project. As Tiggum said, the machine shouldn't have a problem with improbable choices because A) choice doesn't exist in a deterministic universe and B) from the machine's perspective that choice isn't highly improbable because the machine doesn't care about feelings. The alternate universes shown are a visual shorthand for the multiverse (i.e. there are other universes with visually different outcomes) but a "real" view should be something more like a crazy blur as trillions upon trillions of universes exist that are imperceptibly different due to a single particle bouncing left instead of right.
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Apr 19, 2020 19:20
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Zachack posted:The show explicitly depicts this accuracy in the 7th episode with the one-second delay and IMO it really mangles a lot of the "cult/zealot" arguments because the other characters seemed horrified by being predicted and were trying to "beat" the machine. That's why I don't think they actually show anyone even bothering to try to beat it until Lily.
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Apr 19, 2020 19:27
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ghostwritingduck posted:I feel like the majority of the criticism about the lead’s acting stem from the fact that she’s outside of the typical leading actress mold. You complaining about diversity just adds to that. The diversity comment is moronic and ignorant (particularly given the setting) but I'm not sure what "mold" you're referring to because I've watched countless stuff with female leads giving ranges of performances and this one was really out there, and in a way that the characters around her do not reflect. It was like Garland told her "do the dancing sexbot at 25% battery" from Ex Machina and to talk like a robot trying to literally depict feelings (i.e. Neo). She was fine as a weird side character in Maniac, a show that was aggressively weird, but I never got why Sergei or Jaime would be interested in her other than a fit, attractive young person. Jaime in particular comes across as really weird because she never expresses anything that could be considered "romantic" towards him and her "love" towards him is treated as a reward for him bringing her a Zachack fucked around with this message at 19:50 on Apr 19, 2020 |
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Apr 19, 2020 19:41
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Martman posted:If they were trying to beat it and failing, then they're just morons. There's no other explanation for seeing yourself waving your hand, attempting not to wave your hand in the next second, and failing. ... the show is literally that the explanation is they live in a predetermined universe and they can't beat it and attempting to is impossible. Stewart outright states the horror of that reality the show does nothing to disagree with that premise until it very suddenly does and completely shifts themes to Soma. Forrest even says that, as a human and not a prediction machine, that the feeling of doing something predetermined is independent of the knowledge of doing something predetermined - there's no feeling of being dragged down a track, even if that's what it is. The show obviously jettisons this (I think?) but in doing so really undermines the point of the show. But then I think the show was undermined by the dumb "tech people want to be gods" thing because, uh, stories of people wanting to predict the future go back millennia and I'm pretty sure all sorts of people would super-love a machine that can see the future and the past. Hell, just being able to see the past, anywhere, anytime would be permanently world-changing. So would a Soma machine. Zachack fucked around with this message at 19:55 on Apr 19, 2020 |
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Apr 19, 2020 19:49
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Zachack posted:... the show is literally that the explanation is they live in a predetermined universe and they can't beat it and attempting to is impossible. Stewart outright states the horror of that reality the show does nothing to disagree with that premise until it very suddenly does and completely shifts themes to Soma. Forrest even says that, as a human and not a prediction machine, that the feeling of doing something predetermined is independent of the knowledge of doing something predetermined - there's no feeling of being dragged down a track, even if that's what it is. We don't really know. They all believe that they have to do exactly what the machine says they will do, so they do it. I don't think Lily is some magical free will haver, she just doesn't believe their bullshit and doesn't follow their prediction. You could have grabbed anyone off the street, shown them the future and they'd say it's bullshit and then actively not do what the thing said they'd do.
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Apr 19, 2020 20:04
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Yeah I never understood why, in an earlier episode, when Forrest says what if you are shown to fold your arms, and then instead you put your hands in your pockets, why did they not immediately do that experiment? It would have been the first thing I would have done had I been standing in that room right then and there.
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Apr 19, 2020 20:18
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Cactus posted:Yeah I never understood why, in an earlier episode, when Forrest says what if you are shown to fold your arms, and then instead you put your hands in your pockets, why did they not immediately do that experiment? It would have been the first thing I would have done had I been standing in that room right then and there. I think the idea is that you can't, because if you tried to beat the machine you'd just view yourself trying to beat the machine. It's not foolproof, but that is the logic.
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Apr 19, 2020 21:14
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I think we're overlooking the fact that the show is as much about psychology as it about physics and philosophy. Katie and Forrest don't perform the arms folding experiment that they discuss because they aren't pursuing this as scientists but as fundamentalists, and so anything that might call into question to the structure of their belief is unthinkable; the machine is able to accurately process this and so everything it predicts is based on the notion that Katie and Forrest will not deviate form its projections, which they do not. A person faced with the future projections of the machine has two choices: cooperate or defect. Cooperation allows the machine's projections to continue, while Defection terminates its ability to accurately project events because it cannot cope with being wrong, in essence. That choice exists because the show speculates that, for all the talk of determinism, a person is still free to make choices based on the information that they have. Under normal circumstances determinism works because a person isn't even conscious that they're making a choice to adhere to the Forrest's tram lines, and it's impossible to see those rails in the first place, and so that choice is beyond their reach. The Devs universe still behaves deterministically because, for Lily, her choice to defect is determined by the information available to her. But the Devs machine itself can't handle that because, as is stated, it creates a loop: any choice that Lily is shown results in her doing the opposite, and so it breaks down. It's not a flaw in the universe, it's an inherent limitation to the machine itself, because at the end of the day it's just a machine and so its behavior is limited by what it's been programmed to do. EDIT: I also don't believe there's anything inherently special about Lily, she's just outside the closed system that Forrest has constructed around the Devs machine. EDIT2: The more I think about it the more it seems like the moral of Devs is that it's folly to search for a technical solution to what is essentially a spiritual problem, because it will probably make you miserable and won't work anyway. Strange Matter fucked around with this message at 22:41 on Apr 19, 2020 |
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Apr 19, 2020 21:18
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Zachack posted:... the show is literally that the explanation is they live in a predetermined universe and they can't beat it and attempting to is impossible. EDIT: veni veni veni posted:I think the idea is that you can't, because if you tried to beat the machine you'd just view yourself trying to beat the machine. Martman fucked around with this message at 22:50 on Apr 19, 2020 |
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Apr 19, 2020 22:46
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Martman posted:The problem is that this requires a version of human that is incapable of reacting to its perceptions, for no reason. If I see a picture of me raising my right hand, and I want to "beat" it, I just don't raise my right hand. Real humans are capable of this. At times it seemed like the show was working with a... different type of human? Although I do like the idea that up until Lily violated it, everyone was going along with it just because they believed it so hard.
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Apr 19, 2020 22:57
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Let me try and explain this in a different way because I see what theh are getting at and what some of you aren't getting, mainly because people keep using the word choice even though they are advocating determinism. Determinism and the show say all effects have a proceeding cause. In the case of Lily's actions the issue comes in to play because the machine inserts a cause from the future into the past. Up until Lily is shown the future she is on deterministic rails in which time is a straight arrow. When she is shown the future, whether she is shown herself shooting forest OR throwing the gun or even a bunch of puppies, what the machine shows her becomes the cause for her future actions (the effect). Therefore the cause takes place after the effect in time and this creates a paradox in that it becomes possible for the effect to be different than the prediction even though its still all determistic and no actual choice was made. Ugh this is hard to put into words but basically from the universes point of view everything that happened was still deterministic and Lily made no actual free will choice, but it caused the machine to bug out because it was trying to calculate outside the straight arrow of time and determinism only works and can be calculated if time runs one way with no ability to see the future. D-Pad fucked around with this message at 23:22 on Apr 19, 2020 |
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Apr 19, 2020 23:05
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It sounds like you're saying the machine could create almost any future, once its projections become self-fulfilling. So why did it show what it did? Not criticizing, I think that's a genuinely interesting line of discussion. It seems possible that this is going in a direction of the machine exerting some agency itself... maybe killing Forest was kind of a main goal here.
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Apr 19, 2020 23:30
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Martman posted:The problem is that this requires a version of human that is incapable of reacting to its perceptions, for no reason. If I see a picture of me raising my right hand, and I want to "beat" it, I just don't raise my right hand. Real humans are capable of this. At times it seemed like the show was working with a... different type of human? Although I do like the idea that up until Lily violated it, everyone was going along with it just because they believed it so hard. You wouldn't be able to react because the machine has taken everything into account. So if you tried to fool it by putting your hand in your pocket, you'd just watch yourself put your hand in your pocket.
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Apr 19, 2020 23:40
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veni veni veni posted:You wouldn't be able to react because the machine has taken everything into account. So if you tried to fool it by putting your hand in your pocket, you'd just watch yourself put your hand in your pocket. Otherwise you have not explained at all what force is preventing someone from simply not doing the thing that they see.
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Apr 19, 2020 23:42
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grate deceiver posted:The universe is still deterministic, it's just that Forrest is completely wrong and Deus doesn't accurately predict it, because it can't account for people changing their mind based on the machine's predictions, because it sends it into an infinite loop. Lily didn't violate any laws of nature or determinism, she just found a fault in the machine. But there is no infinite loop involved since the machine is capable of simulating itself over and over again as seen with Stewart and the other devs 2 episodes prior. The machine doesn't make false predictions because it also factors in Lily seeing the outcome on the machine and acting based on that. For all intents and purposes the machine seems to have infinite power and is fine simulating a simulation within the simulation to reach the inevitable outcome. There aren't multiple frames of reference where Lily either sees the outcome or doesn't, Lily always sees the machine and always acts a certain way in response. That explanation is also against the entire message of the show unless that message is "the universe is completely deterministic and you don't have free will but at least you can't predict it".
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Apr 19, 2020 23:49
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veni veni veni posted:You wouldn't be able to react because the machine has taken everything into account. So if you tried to fool it by putting your hand in your pocket, you'd just watch yourself put your hand in your pocket. If you go in with the intention of not doing what it shows you, it can't show you what you are actually going to do. If it shows you flipping the bird, and then after seeing that, you decide you'll put your hand in your pocket, the machine can't go back in time and actually show you putting your hand in your pocket. It can't take everything into account if you decide not to follow its calculation. There's no way for it to show you what it calculates will happen and then for you to think you're doing the opposite but actually doing what it predicted.
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Apr 19, 2020 23:54
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Guys, this is fictional show. I am not saying I believe this to be real. In the world of the show this is how it works. I loved the show but it's not hard to poke holes in it's logic.
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Apr 19, 2020 23:57
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We don't know how it works because the only people we have seen interact with the machine are a bunch of true believers who would do exactly as the machine says, and Lily, who wouldn't do what the machine says. That doesn't tell really tell us anything.
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Apr 20, 2020 00:01
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veni veni veni posted:Guys, this is fictional show. I am not saying I believe this to be real. In the world of the show this is how it works. Are people angry? I get the sense people are just trying to discuss the ending.
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Apr 20, 2020 00:04
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