EU Politics: I miss Renaults(don't make fun of me)

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > EU Politics: I miss Renaults(don't make fun of me)

V. Illych L.: Apr 11, 2008; ASK ME ABOUT LUMBER

it's not as though pan-european sentiment is any less racialised and chauvinistic than national sentiments which at least have the practical basis of language and shared history

it's basically impossible to conceive of a european identity which might actually work which isn't rooted almost entirely in ethnic and religious chauvinism unless you go maximum french republican and start claiming europeanism as a unifying ideology, which is its own huge can of worms

# ? Apr 18, 2020 10:48

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# ? May 26, 2024 02:54

A Buttery Pastry: Sep 4, 2011; Delicious and Informative!

orange sky posted:

https://twitter.com/ernesturtasun/status/1251217102226276352?s=19

WE need to realize we're not against Europe, Europe isn't again us, it's not a North vs South thing. It's a left vs right thing.

So what I'm hearing is that we need to divide Europe, but in a European way. Not with a neat line dividing North and South, but enclaves upon enclaves, a big splotchy map of red and blue.

V. Illych L. posted:

it's not as though pan-european sentiment is any less racialised and chauvinistic than national sentiments which at least have the practical basis of language and shared history

it's basically impossible to conceive of a european identity which might actually work which isn't rooted almost entirely in ethnic and religious chauvinism unless you go maximum french republican and start claiming europeanism as a unifying ideology, which is its own huge can of worms

What are your thoughts on the possibility of a global socialist state?

# ? Apr 18, 2020 10:55

Junior G-man: Sep 15, 2004; Wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma

V. Illych L. posted:

it's not as though pan-european sentiment is any less racialised and chauvinistic than national sentiments which at least have the practical basis of language and shared history

Yeah I dunno how to overcome 20,000 years of human culture, racial egotism, and development either. But just positing that as how the EU will always be bad and racist doesn't seem very constructive to me. It seems to me that a reasonable cultural acceptance that spans from Spain to Finland and France to Bulgaria would on average be less racist and chauvinist than just isolating it into singular countries and cultures.

# ? Apr 18, 2020 11:05

GABA ghoul: Oct 29, 2011

A Buttery Pastry posted:

So what I'm hearing is that we need to divide Europe, but in a European way. Not with a neat line dividing North and South, but enclaves upon enclaves, a big splotchy map of red and blue.

Couldn't agree more. Build walls around all rural villages and let them build their regressive ghoul dream societies in peace there. Then collect their corpses 10 years later and make natural parks out of the now uninhibited areas. This is how you build a better, brighter future. :hai:

# ? Apr 18, 2020 11:24

Cat Mattress: Jul 14, 2012; by Cyrano4747

Squalid posted:

the problem with this analogy is it's possible to run away from an abusive relationship. But Greece can't get away from Germany, nor is there any world police who gives a poo poo about their problems. Europe is stuck with Europe. Even without an EU Germany and France will still be setting the economic agenda, because they are the largest economies and have the most leverage. If you're not part of the decision making process, the decisions will simply be made for you. Those European countries which haven't joined the EU like Iceland have still gone through the same liberalization process as those in it, and the situation looks even worse when you look at the direction of nations on other continents.

Germany and France aren't setting the economic agenda, Washington and Beijing are.

The EU exists because it was thought to be a way for Europe to be a part of the decision-making process. But in practice, it failed. European countries are still vassals of the USA, and the EU remains a non-entity that everyone ignores at their leisure, both internally and internationally.

FT's Macron interview posted:

The French president insists that abandoning freedoms to tackle the disease would pose a threat to western democracies. �Some countries are making that choice in Europe,� he says in an apparent allusion to Hungary and Viktor Orban�s decision to rule by decree. �We can�t accept that. You can�t abandon your fundamental DNA on the grounds that there is a health crisis.�

... meanwhile, France rules by decree too.

V. Illych L. posted:

it's not as though pan-european sentiment is any less racialised and chauvinistic than national sentiments which at least have the practical basis of language and shared history

it's basically impossible to conceive of a european identity which might actually work which isn't rooted almost entirely in ethnic and religious chauvinism unless you go maximum french republican and start claiming europeanism as a unifying ideology, which is its own huge can of worms

It's basically impossible to conceive of any national identity that might actually work which isn't rooted almost entirely in ethnic and religious notions. Knowing that you can't use language (official languages of the EU include no less than seven different language families: Celtic, Germanic, Hellenic, Romance, Semitic, Slavic, and Uralic).

# ? Apr 18, 2020 12:04

Antifa Poltergeist: Jun 3, 2004; "We're not laughing with you, we're laughing at you"

Private Speech posted:

They do acknowledge it actually, it's more that they don't know what to do about it. There's a huge amount of discussion and complaining about it.

And it's not like there's even a simple answer in pulling leftwards from a centrist self-interest perspective, since EU electorates don't seem keen on electing the left right now.

I imagine it would be a lot easier sell if there were significant successes for the left to point to. Corbyn getting elected would have been nice; even a quarter of the countries having a left government would make it a more realistic alternative.

As things stand there's quite a lot of chauvinistic right-wing governments elected and precious few (centre-)left ones.

e: I'm not even sure what countries that have radical leftist governments are there in the EU right now. At best they might be junior partners to centrist parties, and even that's considered a major success for the modern left.

So either the EU is maliciously complacent , or staggeringly incompetent.
Because I'm pretty sure a cursory glance at history shows that right wing populism arrises from people's material and perceived conditions detiriorating , and sweeping leftist policy that improves people's daily lives is the counter for that.like ,for example, establishing a massive program that would harden our infrastructure against predicted changes in the climate.or decisive action that would guarantee the jobs , income, shelter and food of its citizens during a pandemic, whithout economic hardship.
The fact that this can only be done by the centrists because they are the ones who wield and have wielded all the power, and they still refuse to do so, should clue people in.
These people sold themselves as our best and brightest.
The fact that the left has been shouting that the Nazis are coming, at least since the 2002 french elections, and the usual culprits have done jack and poo poo should be telling.
After 2008 the same warnings, again jack and poo poo.
After new dawn, again jack and poo poo.
It comes a time when pattern recognition sets in.
At which point you cant be blamed for saying "gently caress it, let it burn."

I hope it doesn't, but neither liberal or technocratic forces have stopped us getting here, and they are either to incompetent or too complacent.

# ? Apr 18, 2020 12:05

V. Illych L.: Apr 11, 2008; ASK ME ABOUT LUMBER

i think it's a reasonable counter to the idea that the opposition to the EU is inherently chauvinistic - to an extent i can agree, but if the EU is going to manage to ever become sentimentally legitimate with people it's going to need something to unite it and set it apart from the rest of the world in the same way as nations do, and the only candidates for that that i can see are the basically bad parts of the idea of a national community, I.e. blood and faith rather than practical exigencies of language or shared history that a nation can claim - this is not meant as an endorsement of the national

# ? Apr 18, 2020 12:21

punk rebel ecks: Dec 11, 2010; A shitty post? This calls for a dance of deduction.

I mean to be fair a big reason why the European Union exists is so that Europe can still remain a superpower in an age of a developed China and possibly India, with the United States still maintaining its superpower status as well. Fragmented nations like Germany, France, and the U.K. seems to matter less and less on the global stage every year (let alone other European nations) but as a superstate they are still juggernauts.

# ? Apr 19, 2020 06:45

Dawncloack: Nov 26, 2007; ECKS DEE!; Nap Ghost

Yeah, I'd say that's true. But they don't want to even pay the price of building a temple and a couple of social buildings to keep unrest down. They are playing this game badly.

# ? Apr 19, 2020 10:56

Antifa Poltergeist: Jun 3, 2004; "We're not laughing with you, we're laughing at you"

We specifically built a economic bloc to compete with the us and the bricks, them did jack poo poo to actually make it functional besides a common currency and free trade, because braindead MBAs and economist so deeply submerged in end of history bullshit said so. While publishing paper after paper that the Labour theory of value is not even real, just need capital ahahah

Just the dumbest people in charge at the worst possible time.

# ? Apr 19, 2020 11:19

SplitSoul: Dec 31, 2000

Antifa Poltergeist posted:

Just the dumbest people in charge at the worst possible time.

The byline of the 21st century.

# ? Apr 19, 2020 11:30

Dawncloack: Nov 26, 2007; ECKS DEE!; Nap Ghost

"It was cognitive fallacies until they killed themselves!"

-the byline for mankind

# ? Apr 19, 2020 11:34

Ghost Leviathan: Mar 2, 2017; Exploration is ill-advised.

The whole problem is the EU is built and run by and for people who don't believe problems exist anymore.

# ? Apr 19, 2020 12:43

SavageGentleman: Feb 28, 2010; When she finds love may it always stay true.
This I beg for the second wish I made too.; Fallen Rib

Antifa Poltergeist posted:

We specifically built a economic bloc to compete with the us and the bricks, them did jack poo poo to actually make it functional besides a common currency and free trade, because braindead MBAs and economist so deeply submerged in end of history bullshit said so. While publishing paper after paper that the Labour theory of value is not even real, just need capital ahahah

Just the dumbest people in charge at the worst possible time.

Well the German government was/is pretty happy with the 'neutered' EU as it was established in 2002/2010 (with the failure of the constitution): the German economy has access to masses of exploitable workers from all over Europe and can export its massive surplus to neighbours that have no means of protecting their markets. Any further unification, especially of financial assets could cost the German government real money and force them to pay a real price for this advantageous situation - not gonna happen as long as we have a centrist Government in charge there/here (writing from Germany).

I guess our government (plus a few buddies like the Netherlands) will try to keep the EU frozen in this dysfunctional form as long as we can, even if it means its collapse during the next few years. The fact that they work towards this direction although the must know that the German economy will be shattered into a thousand pieces when the EU goes down shows their utter lack of vision or foreplanning.

# ? Apr 19, 2020 13:23

NihilCredo: Jun 6, 2011; iram omni possibili modo preme:
plus una illa te diffamabit, quam multæ virtutes commendabunt

I think you all aren't giving enough weight to the previously-mentioned problem that the most powerful political positions still don't require an ambitious politician to give a single poo poo about voters outside their country.

In every working federal state, local politicians almost always aspire to move from the state to the federal levels, and when they do so they'll have to campaign all over the federation. If their platform was "gently caress the rest of the country" their prospects will not be great.

Neither of those is true of the EU. Bruxelles is considered a consolation prize for failed PMs, and European elections feature virtually zero cross-border campaigning by the candidates.

The latter problem is essentially a logistical one (language barrier, national media interests) and it may be solvable. But the former is a political problem: if nobody powerful wants to go to Bruxelles, how does Bruxelles get the power to attract them in the first place?

Is anyone here well-versed in the history of the early USA? How did they evolve from a loose federation to the rather meaningfully tight one it became later? I don't mean the Civil War, I mean before that - the EU would wish to be as centralised as mid-19th century America.

# ? Apr 19, 2020 13:32

Dawncloack: Nov 26, 2007; ECKS DEE!; Nap Ghost

^^ nice, hadnt thought about it that way.

# ? Apr 19, 2020 16:04

Orange Devil: Oct 1, 2010; Wullie's reign cannae smother the flames o' equality!

Isn't that a cart before the horse problem though?

The EU is not a federal state. Thus, power lies at the level of national leaders more than EU positions. Thus, politicians aspire to national positions of power over EU positions.

Orange Devil fucked around with this message at 17:11 on Apr 19, 2020

# ? Apr 19, 2020 16:37

Squalid: Nov 4, 2008

NihilCredo posted:

I think you all aren't giving enough weight to the previously-mentioned problem that the most powerful political positions still don't require an ambitious politician to give a single poo poo about voters outside their country.

In every working federal state, local politicians almost always aspire to move from the state to the federal levels, and when they do so they'll have to campaign all over the federation. If their platform was "gently caress the rest of the country" their prospects will not be great.

Neither of those is true of the EU. Bruxelles is considered a consolation prize for failed PMs, and European elections feature virtually zero cross-border campaigning by the candidates.

The latter problem is essentially a logistical one (language barrier, national media interests) and it may be solvable. But the former is a political problem: if nobody powerful wants to go to Bruxelles, how does Bruxelles get the power to attract them in the first place?

Is anyone here well-versed in the history of the early USA? How did they evolve from a loose federation to the rather meaningfully tight one it became later? I don't mean the Civil War, I mean before that - the EU would wish to be as centralised as mid-19th century America.

I think this is a really insightful point some of the institutional issues in the EU. I definitely don't know how to solve them, but it's fun to theorize.

Regarding with the US, it happened quite slowly. During and after the US Revolutionary War, the country was governed under the Articles of Confederation. In contrast to the later US constitution, this provided very little power to the central government. Very quickly it started running into big problems. Like the EU it required unanimous consent to amend the Articles, which made changing anything almost impossible. It botch the response to a virtual revolt by veterans who had been enraged by a debt crisis. The states of New York and Vermont were on the cusp of going to war over their border. At the end it was obvious the central government needed more power or the Confederation would fall apart.

The Constitution provided a lot more power to the Federal government, but states were still much more independent than they are now. Especially important, was the issue of whether states could leave the union or not. During the war of 1812 the northeast virtually seceded because their maritime economies depended on the British empire. The British gleefully exploited this to divide the US and let Bostonian ships come and go as they pleased. It was often argued that the Federal government couldn't make states do anything they didn't want, and that they could leave at will. This question remained unsettled until the American Civil War, when the victorious union declared that the central government had ultimate authority and that the union was indivisible.

Even so, until the early 20th century state governments still had the power to select Senators directly. They weren't elected at all. It very much intentionally was the states as entities convening themselves. The Federal government continued to grow as a result of the world wars and probably still is. It has just been a continuous and very slow process.

# ? Apr 19, 2020 16:57

A Buttery Pastry: Sep 4, 2011; Delicious and Informative!

Squalid posted:

I think this is a really insightful point some of the institutional issues in the EU. I definitely don't know how to solve them, but it's fun to theorize.

Regarding with the US, it happened quite slowly. During and after the US Revolutionary War, the country was governed under the Articles of Confederation. In contrast to the later US constitution, this provided very little power to the central government. Very quickly it started running into big problems. Like the EU it required unanimous consent to amend the Articles, which made changing anything almost impossible. It botch the response to a virtual revolt by veterans who had been enraged by a debt crisis. The states of New York and Vermont were on the cusp of going to war over their border. At the end it was obvious the central government needed more power or the Confederation would fall apart.

The Constitution provided a lot more power to the Federal government, but states were still much more independent than they are now. Especially important, was the issue of whether states could leave the union or not. During the war of 1812 the northeast virtually seceded because their maritime economies depended on the British empire. The British gleefully exploited this to divide the US and let Bostonian ships come and go as they pleased. It was often argued that the Federal government couldn't make states do anything they didn't want, and that they could leave at will. This question remained unsettled until the American Civil War, when the victorious union declared that the central government had ultimate authority and that the union was indivisible.

Even so, until the early 20th century state governments still had the power to select Senators directly. They weren't elected at all. It very much intentionally was the states as entities convening themselves. The Federal government continued to grow as a result of the world wars and probably still is. It has just been a continuous and very slow process.

As I understand it, the pithy reply is that creditors got scared their bonds wouldn't be serviced, so they reformed the government to ensure they would. Everything beyond that is just power accumulating more power. I guess that's the answer to how the federalize the EU, you just need it to owe so much money to rich people that they'll give it proper federal powers. The moment it does, national government becomes a stepping stone towards an EU presidency, and the political calculus changes for at least some of the people who would otherwise undermine it.

# ? Apr 19, 2020 17:42

Squalid: Nov 4, 2008

A Buttery Pastry posted:

As I understand it, the pithy reply is that creditors got scared their bonds wouldn't be serviced, so they reformed the government to ensure they would. Everything beyond that is just power accumulating more power. I guess that's the answer to how the federalize the EU, you just need it to owe so much money to rich people that they'll give it proper federal powers. The moment it does, national government becomes a stepping stone towards an EU presidency, and the political calculus changes for at least some of the people who would otherwise undermine it.

yeah that's a good summary of one major issue. It's easy to point to at least superficial similarities between the Confederation government and the EU. It's finances were dependent on contributions from the states that always fell short and as a result it struggled to spend or deal with crises, just as the EU is struggling to stimulus spend on the corona crisis. Still, the US Federal government remained much weaker than it is today for a long time, there wasn't even a unified currency until the civil war.

Doctor Jeep posted:

that's why I'm not advocating complete balkanization, I want states to exit together, as a block, and create a new trading block like the EU except with better rules
you're advocating lesser-evilism which has been tried and failed over and over again

I like these kinds of discussions where the people on both sides begin to sound more and more like one another the longer they talk. And right now, we sound like we're basically saying the same thing.

Cat Mattress posted:

Germany and France aren't setting the economic agenda, Washington and Beijing are.

The EU exists because it was thought to be a way for Europe to be a part of the decision-making process. But in practice, it failed. European countries are still vassals of the USA, and the EU remains a non-entity that everyone ignores at their leisure, both internally and internationally.

Yeah this is basically what I was trying to say earlier. Looking at the international response to world events, its surprising just how reactive rather than proactive European governments are. There's very little initiative or direction.

# ? Apr 19, 2020 19:28

Junior G-man: Sep 15, 2004; Wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma

Orange Devil was kind enough to come on the UKMT podcast - me, him and a very confused brit talk all things euro(zone)for your aural pleasure:

https://twitter.com/PraxisCast/status/1251966720920739841?s=19

# ? Apr 19, 2020 21:14

Dawncloack: Nov 26, 2007; ECKS DEE!; Nap Ghost

Wait is that really you guys?

# ? Apr 19, 2020 21:46

Junior G-man: Sep 15, 2004; Wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma

It really is.

Many thanks to OD for coming on and talking euro for 90 min on a school night ❤

Junior G-man fucked around with this message at 22:14 on Apr 19, 2020

# ? Apr 19, 2020 22:08

BlankSystemDaemon: Mar 13, 2009

Even though I've gone back to only passively watching the UKMT thread instead of posting, I can confirm that UMKT podcast is indeed cool and good.

# ? Apr 19, 2020 22:39

Junior G-man: Sep 15, 2004; Wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma

FT today; the ECB really is trying to pull out all the stops to do what they can so long as the word 'eurobond' is banned by the Northern rear end in a top hat Alliance.

quote:

ECB pushes for eurozone bad bank to clean up soured loans
Brussels opposes idea despite fears the pandemic will trigger new NPL surge

European Central Bank officials have held high-level talks with counterparts in Brussels about creating a eurozone bad bank to remove billions of euros in toxic debts from lenders� balance sheets.

The plan to deal with debts left over from the 2008 financial crisis is being pushed by senior ECB officials, who worry the coronavirus pandemic will trigger another surge in non-performing loans (NPLs) that risks clogging up banks� lending capacity at a critical time.

But the idea faces stiff opposition within the European Commission, where officials are reluctant to waive EU rules requiring state aid for banks to be provided only after a resolution process imposes losses on their shareholders and bondholders.

�The lesson from the crisis is that only with a bad bank can you quickly get rid of the NPLs,� Yannis Stournaras, governor of the Bank of Greece and member of the ECB governing council, told the Financial Times. �It could be a European one or a national one. But it needs to happen quickly.�

Greek banks have by far the highest level of soured loans on their balance sheets of any eurozone country, making up 35 per cent of their total loan books � a legacy of the 2010-15 debt crisis that pushed the country to the brink of exiting the eurozone.�

They have cut their bad loans by about 40 per cent in four years, under heavy pressure from the ECB. But plans by Greece�s big four lenders to sell more than �32bn of NPLs � almost half the total in the country � are likely to be disrupted by the coronavirus crisis, and Mr Stournaras said the best way to quickly fix their balance sheets is now via a bad bank.

ECB officials have also held talks with the commission�s department for financial stability and capital markets.

Senior EU officials have pushed back on the idea, arguing there are better ways to tackle toxic loans, but declined to give further details.

The high-level talks were in their infancy and had been premature, said people with direct knowledge of them. �We put a stop to them from the EU side,� said a person briefed on the discussions. �Nothing is moving.�

However, people following the discussions inside the commission did not rule out their resuming at a later stage of the pandemic.

Andrea Enria, chair of the ECB�s supervisory board, proposed the idea of an EU bad bank in early 2017 when he was still head of the European Banking Authority. His idea was blocked by Brussels� officials citing state-aid rules � but he is now trying to get the plan off the ground again, said people briefed on the matter. The ECB declined to comment.

Total NPLs in the biggest 121 eurozone banks almost halved in four years to �506bn, or 3.2 per cent of their loan books, by the end of last year. But Greek, Cypriot, Portuguese and Italian banks still have NPL ratios above 6 per cent.�

In March, the commission adopted a temporary relaxation of state-aid rules and has since waved through billions of euros in emergency government relief measures. Brussels is also finalising plans alongside member states to allow countries to inject equity directly into struggling businesses, though in return they will be restricted from paying dividends or bonuses while in receipt of state aid.

Proponents of the bad bank idea hope to make it acceptable under state-aid rules by proposing that the toxic loans would have to be sold into the market after a fixed time period, with the power to recoup any losses from the lenders themselves.

Spain, Ireland and Germany all set up state-backed bad banks after the 2008 financial crisis to deal with sudden increases in toxic bank debt.�

But since then, the EU has introduced the bank recovery and resolution directive, which restricts governments from setting up bad banks except as part of an official resolution process.�

# ? Apr 20, 2020 11:23

Antifa Poltergeist: Jun 3, 2004; "We're not laughing with you, we're laughing at you"

Told ya guys, the strategy is to pressure the ECB to pull all the stops so that this poo poo is more palatable for internal consumption.its also gonna have a bunch of people railing against "the unelected burocrats in the EU". Unfortunately a lot of those people have op-eds.
Wonder is this hide-the-salami tactic will backfire.

# ? Apr 20, 2020 11:41

double nine: Aug 8, 2013

excellent, now the ecb will do "whatever it takes" and creditor country politicians can continue to play hardball for their domestic popularity. This will surely have no adverse effect long-term.

# ? Apr 20, 2020 12:50

Orange Devil: Oct 1, 2010; Wullie's reign cannae smother the flames o' equality!

Junior G-man posted:

It really is.

Many thanks to OD for coming on and talking euro for 90 min on a school night ❤

What does school have to do with anything?

Antifa Poltergeist posted:

Told ya guys, the strategy is to pressure the ECB to pull all the stops so that this poo poo is more palatable for internal consumption.its also gonna have a bunch of people railing against "the unelected burocrats in the EU". Unfortunately a lot of those people have op-eds.
Wonder is this hide-the-salami tactic will backfire.

Ofcourse it won't. Now can someone explain to me how these fascist parties keep getting elected with more and more seats?

quote:

European Central Bank officials have held high-level talks with counterparts in Brussels about creating a eurozone bad bank to remove billions of euros in toxic debts from lenders� balance sheets.

The plan to deal with debts left over from the 2008 financial crisis is being pushed by senior ECB officials, who worry the coronavirus pandemic will trigger another surge in non-performing loans (NPLs) that risks clogging up banks� lending capacity at a critical time.

Note how this is exactly the same thing as what Deutsche did with it's Capital Release Unit. So this is literally yet another giant banking bailout by another name.

1. Banks lend out a lot of money to many parties, thereby taking on the risk of default on the loans in exchange for charging interest.
2. Some loans are going to be paid back with interest, others are going to be defaulted on.
3. Government takes over all the loans that are going to be defaulted on at face value, thereby eliminating the risk of default for the banks. Banks get to keep the other loans and the interest, thus guaranteeing profit.
4. Lending money is now a 0 risk proposition, creating a clear ~*~MoRaL hAzArD~*~ where banks are incentivized to lend money to as many parties as possible as more volume = more profit since all losses will be nationalised while profits remain private.
5. Banks keep requiring more and more bailouts for some reason they just keep having non-performing loans where are these even coming from help someone who is good at the economy help me budget this

Actual solutions are
a) let the banks fail
b) fully nationalize the banks and do not reprivatize them

Orange Devil fucked around with this message at 15:48 on Apr 20, 2020

# ? Apr 20, 2020 13:35

NihilCredo: Jun 6, 2011; iram omni possibili modo preme:
plus una illa te diffamabit, quam multæ virtutes commendabunt

Whoa, whoa, wait a moment there. Are you not aware that Iceland nationalized the banks it bailed out and as a result it's now a lawless hellhole that makes South Sudan look like Switzerland?

# ? Apr 20, 2020 14:10

His Divine Shadow: Aug 7, 2000; I'm not a fascist. I'm a priest. Fascists dress up in black and tell people what to do.

I thought iceland let the banks fail. Kinda what I thought we should've done.

# ? Apr 20, 2020 15:02

Stubb Dogg: Feb 16, 2007; loskat naamalle

His Divine Shadow posted:

I thought iceland let the banks fail. Kinda what I thought we should've done.

They had to build a new prison to hold all the bankers that got convicted in the aftermath.

# ? Apr 20, 2020 15:24

punk rebel ecks: Dec 11, 2010; A shitty post? This calls for a dance of deduction.

I thought it was common knowledge to have the banks fail, and break them up to credit unions, while having those that are to big to break up nationalized.

# ? Apr 20, 2020 16:16

Blut: Sep 11, 2009; if someone is in the bottom 10%~ of a guillotine

Orange Devil I think you'll find ~*~MoRaL hAzArD~*~ only applies to lazy Welfare Queens who're choosing to live the high life on 200euro* a week instead of working. Glorious selfless job-creating bankers are completely immune to such base instincts.

The banks should all have been fully nationalized in 2008. We're just going to have endless asset bubble cycles until they start actually functioning as services for the public good (like credit unions) instead of the profit driven monstrosities masquerading as indispensable public service providers that they are currently.

*replace as needed for each reader's county-specific, too low, unemployment support payment

# ? Apr 20, 2020 17:45

Missionary Positron: Jul 6, 2004; And now for something completely different

https://twitter.com/theEUpost/status/1251064470782304259?s=20

Italians are finally seeing who their friends really are, it's really amazing how China and Russia helped Italy while the EU fiddled their dumbs (or actively stopped help).

# ? Apr 20, 2020 19:14

double nine: Aug 8, 2013

surprised the dutch don't beat the uk there, but i'm sure that'll change.

# ? Apr 20, 2020 20:14

Cat Mattress: Jul 14, 2012; by Cyrano4747

Missionary Positron posted:

Italians are finally seeing who their friends really are, it's really amazing how China and Russia helped Italy while the EU fiddled their dumbs (or actively stopped help).

Backstabbing and sabotaging each others is how you maintain �-~-*COMPETITIVENESS*-~-� in the Union.

# ? Apr 20, 2020 21:03

Orange Devil: Oct 1, 2010; Wullie's reign cannae smother the flames o' equality!

I wonder if countries that are neighbors and see one another as their main enemies could ever lead to armed conflict. Nah probably not. Nothing to be worried about.

# ? Apr 21, 2020 10:14

mortons stork: Oct 13, 2012

I sincerely hope not. Italy's historic military tradition is using all its military capacity wrong, as a joke.

# ? Apr 21, 2020 10:21

Junior G-man: Sep 15, 2004; Wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma

Surprise surprise, the Italians aren't super keen on using the ESM because of the austerity strings attached by the Frugal Fuckers:

quote:

Giuseppe Conte prepares for toxic choice on eurozone rescue fund��
Pressured by the right, Italy�s PM has prevaricated over triggering the European Stability Mechanism�

Italy�s prime minister faces an invidious decision over whether to tap Europe�s bailout fund as he balances increasingly toxic domestic politics against the possibility of teeing up extra firepower to tackle the country�s mountainous borrowing requirements.�

Ahead of a crucial EU leaders� summit on Thursday, Giuseppe Conte has sent mixed messages over whether Italy will draw on precautionary credit lines from the �500bn European Stability Mechanism. His prevarication reflects divisions within his fragile governing coalition and a recognition that sustained campaigning by Eurosceptic Italian politicians has stained the ESM�s reputation among his electorate.

EU leaders are expected to sign off on the use of the ESM at a video conference summit on Thursday, as part of a �500bn package of emergency coronavirus-fighting measures. Resistance from Germany, the Netherlands and other northern member states will probably prevent Mr Conte and his allies from winning the prospect of mutualised debt issuance � dubbed �coronabonds� by some.�

This leaves the Italian premier facing an unenviable political situation at home. Debate in Italy about the merits of using the ESM has become deeply intertwined with the country�s complex domestic politics, with Mr Conte�s opponents arguing the mechanism would compromise Italian sovereignty, even if the money came with the lightest of conditions.�

Matteo Salvini�s populist League has repeatedly attacked Mr Conte for even considering use of the ESM, accusing him of betraying his own country and the futures of its youth. Mr Conte himself, under repeated heavy shelling from the country�s political right, has flip-flopped on the issue, saying at different points he would be open to accessing the ESM and at others that he would never do so.

His situation is made trickier by the composition of his own coalition government, and his unorthodox status as a leader without his own political party or lawmakers that are loyal to him.�

His political future remains uneasily dependent on the ongoing support of the Five Star Movement, which itself is conducting a process to pick a new party leader as well as an internal debate about its future direction that is dividing between those who want to be closer to the pro-European Democratic party and those who view it as an enemy.

The PD supports Italy accessing the ESM as part of a compromise to find a pan-European solution. Yet a large number of Five Star Movement lawmakers deeply resent the ESM as much as Mr Salvini�s League, and are wary of being tainted by any decision Mr Conte might make to use it.

�I can understand Conte�s ambivalence towards the ESM,� said Erik Jones, professor of European studies and international political economy at the Johns Hopkins School of Advanced International Studies in Bologna. �He may feel that the only way to hold the Five Star Movement together�is to keep pushing back on the ESM.�

At first glance the ESM�s offering is of modest budgetary benefit given Italy�s mounting debt burdens. The plan is each country may draw the equivalent of up to 2 per cent of its gross domestic product, which in Italy�s case would amount to about �37bn. The sum is relatively small, set against UniCredit analysts� borrowing estimates for Italy of between �120bn and �160bn this year alone.

The ESM�s credit lines come with substantially lower interest costs than Italy can access by itself in the open markets, but UniCredit strategist Chiara Cremonesi estimates the annual saving at just over �700m before any fees. The difference could be lower factoring in the fact the ECB is purchasing large numbers of Italian bonds, she said, which diverts some interest payments on the debt back into the public sector.�

Michele Geraci, a former under-secretary for economic development for the League, said the ESM did not provide enough of a safety net for Italy�and the ECB should be willing to support Italian bonds without it. �Conte appears to think that possibly signing up to the ESM, but not actually then using it would be a neutral insurance policy for Italy, but he is wrong,� Mr Geraci said.�

But analysts say arguments for going to the ESM do not stop at its precautionary credit lines alone. Accessing the lines is one of the preconditions for unlocking the ECB�s outright monetary transactions (OMTs) � unlimited purchases of shorter-term debt � which were born with former bank president Mario Draghi�s �whatever it takes� speech at the height of the sovereign debt crisis in 2012.�

Referring to OMTs in an interview with Corriere della Sera on Monday, Klaus Regling, the managing director of the ESM, said there may not be a need for such purchases at the moment, but �things may change.� Markets, he added, �are very volatile at this stage�.�

Some analysts argued the ECB�s decision to purchase almost �900bn of extra bonds this year had made the OMT look redundant. Minutes to the ECB�s latest policy meeting recorded that the OMT was designed to address �unfounded fears� of a eurozone break-up � a very different situation from today�s symmetrical, pandemic-induced shock.

Italy can still comfortably access markets to finance its deficits. But given the scale of the economic slump in the country, and the vast quantities of debt it will have to issue, not everyone is willing to rule out a dramatic turn for the worse in the bond markets somewhere down the road. It remains to be seen whether Mr Conte decides to pay the high political price necessary to reduce that risk.�

The Eurozone might kill off ANOTHER Italian government. Can't wait for another 'corona technocracy' to be installed that will be the deathblow to Italy's remaining faith in the Eurozone/EU.

This insane resistance to Euro/Coronabonds is gonna loving kill the Euro at some points.

# ? Apr 21, 2020 10:45

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# ? May 26, 2024 02:54

mortons stork: Oct 13, 2012

It's really good that Friedrich Merz, likely substitute to Merkel, was tweeting this poo poo just a couple days ago. Just to ensure that no reprieve will ever be given.
https://twitter.com/_FriedrichMerz/status/1251868150120902656
Saying essentially that the lazy Italians just want to finance their profligate debt and spending off the back of honest Germany.

# ? Apr 21, 2020 10:54

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