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zedprime posted:I guess where I'm coming at it, the worst case is we get FF7 Birth By Sleep 358/2 Unchained and it's still told in the fashion of FF7 anecdotes like dolphin jumping and going on a date with Barrett. The game went out of its way to let you fight Hell House, Eligor, Swordipede, and the brain teapot. Even if the plot ends up on the cutting room floor I trust the moments will still be there. This is my primary concern. This doesn't count as a Remake for me. American McGee's Alice doesn't count as a faithful adaption of Alice in Wonderland for me. zedprime posted:I've never really taken the temperature on it beside some Trekkies really having it out for it, but Abrams Star Trek is 100% a remake. Then I guess I'm just crazy. I see it as a sequel. The original stories still happened, they're still a timeline within that story, and this story couldn't have happened if the original story didn't happen. I don't believe you can nest the original story within a "remake" and then take massive creative liberties with the lore and setting of the universe and call it a faithful remake. I suppose Cloud could literally change his name to Lightning and the FF15 crew could come crashing through the walls, and Mickey could fight Sephiroth in the climax and it'd still count as a remake as long as they included the original story beats and put the word "Remake" on the label. The word doesn't actually seem to mean anything then, IMO. exquisite tea posted:I wish people would do away with incurious statements like "contempt for the audience" because it's about as unhelpful for interpreting media as it is unhealthy to the mental state of the reader. Nobody's out to get you, the developers don't hate their fans, they don't even know who you are. It's nothing personal, bitch.  No one asserted this was directed any single person. It's a general accusation leveled at the fan base clamoring for a faithful adaption being told directly "We will never give you what you ask for" and they're depicted as "misguided souls with good intent" at best in the form of Whispers trying to enforce the existing timeline. "Change is bad!", they scream. That depiction, even if intended to be gentle and well-meaning is absolutely disdain for their audience. The idea of audience stand-ins in meta-narratives isn't exactly new.
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Apr 20, 2020 18:20
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Its as much of a sequel as Rebuild of Evangelion is a sequel, yes
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Apr 20, 2020 18:22
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pretty funny when people's grievances boil down to a pedantic "they should have called it 'Rebuild' instead of 'Remake'  "like, seriously, who cares about the title. my goodness.
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Apr 20, 2020 18:23
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"We think we can do better, come on this new journey with us, we promise we're trying to do right by everyone, look at how faithfully we've gotten the characters down! Come on, friend, fan, person for whom we create these things, and a) buy our stuff and b) enjoy the fun times with characters you love. It'll be new and different for all of us!" vs. "gently caress YOU, AUDIENCE, WE WILL NEVER GIVE YOU WHAT YOU WANT, BECAUSE DELIBERATELY WITHHOLDING WHAT OUR FANS WANT IS HOW WE, A BUSINESS, MAKE MONEY GYAAA HA HA HA HA, OUR DEVELOPMENT TEAM IS FUELED BY PURE DISDAIN AND CONTEMPT"
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Apr 20, 2020 18:28
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Requesting this as the new thread title, tia.
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Apr 20, 2020 18:30
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Mechafunkzilla posted:pretty funny when people's grievances boil down to a pedantic "they should have called it 'Rebuild' instead of 'Remake' I would not have bought it or invested 40 hours of time and gotten my hopes up for the dream game we thought we'd never get (and clearly will never get). I wouldn't have invested my money and personal time into FF7-2: Cloud Returns. I would have ignored it and thrown it in the dumpster bin with the rest of the FF7 expanded universe stuff. That's a pretty legit complaint to have.
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Apr 20, 2020 18:31
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Xaiter posted:I would not have bought it or invested 40 hours of time and gotten my hopes up for the dream game we thought we'd never get (and clearly will never get). The best part about FF7R is that it expressly does not replace the original and isn't trying to. If in your dream game the events of the narrative play out exactly as they do in Final Fantasy VII, and you want nothing but the pure, undiluted Final Fantasy VII experience without any of that pesky interference from creatives in 2020 who don't get it, man, then boy do I have some fantastic news for you: right now, on Steam and playable on current-gen consoles, you can play Final Fantasy VII. It seems exactly like what you're looking for!
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Apr 20, 2020 18:35
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Xaiter posted:
I want you to take a step back and think about the sequence of assumptions you have made in this one line of logic: 1. The Final Fantasy VII fanbase, all 25+ million people who enjoyed this game 22 years ago, is a singular entity made of those who only wanted a direct remake. 2. The creators of Final Fantasy VII recognized this and wilfully sought to deny them. 3. That they created a metaplot conceit that could only possibly stand for one thing. 4. That they did so only out of their own spite rather than any other artistic, logistical or commercial reason. 5. That they tricked millions of people into buying the game purely out of their own disdain. 6. That they faithfully, meticulously recreated the world and characters of Final Fantasy VII so that they could flip the script at the last minute and trigger the fans. I'll say that this is more than a ridiculous conclusion, it's paranoid and actively unhealthy for anyone to have this kind of relationship with media.
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Apr 20, 2020 18:37
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guts and bolts posted:The best part about FF7R is that it expressly does not replace the original and isn't trying to. If in your dream game the events of the narrative play out exactly as they do in Final Fantasy VII, and you want nothing but the pure, undiluted Final Fantasy VII experience without any of that pesky interference from creatives in 2020 who don't get it, man, then boy do I have some fantastic news for you: right now, on Steam and playable on current-gen consoles, you can play Final Fantasy VII. It seems exactly like what you're looking for! Hey, look! It's a straw man! I never said change was bad. I liked literally all the changes until Destiny's Crossroads. It was hype as hell. But nope, because I don't like 100% of the changes introduced, including the one that introduces parallel timelines and time travel in a narrative that never included such things... I must ONLY want a perfect 1:1 Remake with absolutely no changes whatsoever. It's not possible to like everything except the big dumb ending. C'mon, you drat well know that isn't the case. exquisite tea posted:5. That they tricked millions of people into buying the game purely out of their own disdain. #5 is about money. They can't spend hundreds of millions on FF7-2: Cloud Returns and make enough money to cover the risk of the project. #6 is literally Nomura trying to be Yoko Taro trolling his fan base. Except he sucks at it. You don't accidentally make something like that. This doesn't require the entire staff or some massive decades spanning plot. It just requires the creative director to actively hate the project he's being forced to work on and trying to turn it into his pet story from an unpopular FF-series. I can't see how you can make that ending and still say you actually like the source material at all. They're literally doing FF13-style alternate timelines / time crash / crystal dreamer nonsense as the literal physical manifestation of the cosmic forces of destiny are slain. Xaiter fucked around with this message at 18:48 on Apr 20, 2020 |
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Apr 20, 2020 18:39
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Xaiter posted:Hey, look! It's a straw man! It's extremely disingenuous that you, the guy currently arguing that the development team deliberately and with malice aforethought sought to deny fans what they had been asking for out of a sense of spite and contempt, are going to bring up strawmanning now. Remember when you said: Xaiter posted:I suppose Cloud could literally change his name to Lightning and the FF15 crew could come crashing through the walls, and Mickey could fight Sephiroth in the climax and it'd still count as a remake as long as they included the original story beats and put the word "Remake" on the label. Hm. Seems pretty weird that you'd just now decide who is distorting the discussion and each side's points.
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Apr 20, 2020 18:45
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guts and bolts posted:The best part about FF7R is that it expressly does not replace the original and isn't trying to. If in your dream game the events of the narrative play out exactly as they do in Final Fantasy VII, and you want nothing but the pure, undiluted Final Fantasy VII experience without any of that pesky interference from creatives in 2020 who don't get it, man, then boy do I have some fantastic news for you: right now, on Steam and playable on current-gen consoles, you can play Final Fantasy VII. It seems exactly like what you're looking for! This argument is so tired and dumb. Some people want that same story but with FF7R's updated graphics and combat and voice acting. This shouldn't be hard to grasp. I'm personally OK with what they gave us but making GBS threads on people who wanted and/or expected a straight remake is just as pathetic and sad as claiming the writers hate the fans.
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Apr 20, 2020 18:50
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homeless snail posted:Its as much of a sequel as Rebuild of Evangelion is a sequel, yes i.e. in 3 games time, we still won't know if it's a sequel or not.
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Apr 20, 2020 18:50
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Square hates the fans because if they didn't, Aerith would have had the folding chair as a weapon option
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Apr 20, 2020 18:51
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Xaiter posted:Hey, look! It's a straw man! This is Reddit level nonsense.
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Apr 20, 2020 18:51
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Andrast posted:Square hates the fans because if they didn't, Aerith would have had the folding chair as a weapon option Send Nomura your open letters about that for Part II. I'll sign the petition. In all seriousness, give Aerith a physical moveset like Barret, Nomura. Do it!
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Apr 20, 2020 18:52
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guts and bolts posted:Hm. Seems pretty weird that you'd just now decide who is distorting the discussion and each side's points. You well understand the point being made through the absurd example and chose to ignore it the purposes of winning an internet argument. I merely want my perspective to be understood because I am a person who has opinions, and a desire to share them is natural. So fine. You win. Whatever, I'm not here to win an internet argument for cool points.
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Apr 20, 2020 18:53
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IDK how you could play this game for 40 hours and not think its anything but a labor of love by everyone involved, its crazy reverent of FF7 Like even The Twist is pretty much purely just so they can inject some tension into all the FF7 twists everyone already knows inside and out
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Apr 20, 2020 18:55
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Xaiter posted:This doesn't require the entire staff or some massive decades spanning plot. It just requires the creative director to actively hate the project he's being forced to work on and trying to turn it into his pet story from an unpopular FF-series. I'll ask something again you didn't respond to the first time: what if the creators feel just as conflicted about this as anyone else? Pay attention to how Aerith talks about the possibility of defeating the Whispers and earning their "freedom" from the planet's destined course for them. She's frightened of it. She resolves that it might be the right thing to do, but the idea of that boundless freedom, the idea that they're diverging from a fate that might turn out just fine but isn't actually their choice anymore, is terrifying to her. The Whispers might well be extremely metaphorical. They represent that conflicted feeling between wanting to follow the path set before you--a path you know will probably turn out just fine--or challenge that, take a huge risk, and try to make an even better world. In the end, Aerith--and the game's creators, likely--determined that freedom is worth the risk, and so she leads you to challenge and defeat the Whispers. But even after that, she's conflicted. Remember that she compares that freedom to a "boundless sky," and it's been established throughout the game that Aerith feels most comfortable with the plate above her head. At the end, she even says that she misses it. That even if the plate hemmed her in, was oppressive and hanging over her head... she misses it. She's still conflicted. Meanwhile, the Whispers themselves seem almost mournful, especially by the time you reach Shinra Tower. They're keeping fate on course even though they know it will cause pain, and they even do it gently and kindly when they can. They are never portrayed as malicious once we understand what they are. They stifle freedom, and they act out of desperation at the end, but they aren't bad or necessarily even wrong. In short I think you're reading malice into the game's creators' actions where there isn't any. Maybe they sincerely believe they can tell a better story this time if they are freed from having to stick exactly to the plot of the original and they made the conflict between that and a desire to be faithful to the original a plot point in the first part of the remake. And look at what else they did with the first part of the remake. They showed us they understand these characters and can write them exceptionally well. And they showed us that when they do create new stories in this world--whether they're large expansions of what was there in the original or complete rewrites like Wall Market, or entirely new chapters--they're still good and they still feel right. They wanted to show us that we can trust them going forward. Maybe they didn't earn your trust and that's fine, but again, that's not a malicious, audience-hating choice. What I'm trying to say is that nothing here says "gently caress you, I hate Final Fantasy VII and I'm rubbing it in your face" to me. It says "we know that this is scary and we're nervous, too, but we want you to trust us to tell you an even better story this time." Harrow fucked around with this message at 18:59 on Apr 20, 2020 |
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Apr 20, 2020 18:57
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homeless snail posted:IDK how you could play this game for 40 hours and not think its anything but a labor of love by everyone involved, its crazy reverent of FF7 What makes a rabid fanbase rabid is that they have worked themselves into thinking that they are actually the ones who should determine what is legitimate and what isn't ("they owe us"), because their acts of consumption are worth more than the creators' acts of production (This is not a comment on anyone in the thread, the discussion here has been reasonable from what I've seen)
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Apr 20, 2020 18:58
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I'm totally down with changing stuff and telling a new story with the characters. But just... like.. do that. If you have a new story to tell just tell it. Crowbarring baby's first metafictional elements into the story to give yourself an in-universe excuse for changing things feels like cowardice. Would it really have been so hard to get to where they wanted to without having to rely on the intervention of interdimensional time-travelling ghosts?
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Apr 20, 2020 18:59
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Elephant Ambush posted:This argument is so tired and dumb. Some people want that same story but with FF7R's updated graphics and combat and voice acting. This shouldn't be hard to grasp. What shouldn't be hard to grasp is that Final Fantasy VII already exists. What would be tired and dumb? The exact same game realized with a fresh coat of paint and updated voice acting. Until Capcom underwent a quasi-renaissance that included an extremely well-received RE2make, remakes were largely considered to be lazy cash-grabs that were creatively bankrupt and predatory exploitation of nostalgia, a sort of trick to convince fans to re-buy games they've already played and own. RE3make itself is already receiving this sort of reaction and is by all accounts an extremely well-made recreation of the original Resident Evil 3: Nemesis, and currently sits at like a 6 out of 10 or something on Metacritic's user scores (compared to RE2make's 9, IIRC). I've already gone out of my way to meet takes like this one and Vino's halfway, and have been pretty explicit in my opinion that being confused or disappointed in how the game ends doesn't make you a bad person or whatever. Do me a favor and keep your "pathetic and sad" nonsense to yourself, thanks. Xaiter posted:You well understand the point being made through the absurd example and chose to ignore it the purposes of winning an internet argument. So I am supposed to give you the benefit of the doubt and ascribe hyperbole to your point to see the greater one you're trying to make, but you will not afford me the same courtesy? foh with that. guts and bolts fucked around with this message at 19:01 on Apr 20, 2020 |
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Apr 20, 2020 18:59
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People who wanted a straight remake should have been out the instant they changed combat to a real time system imo
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Apr 20, 2020 19:01
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guts and bolts posted:What shouldn't be hard to grasp is that Final Fantasy VII already exists. What would be tired and dumb? The exact same game realized with a fresh coat of paint and updated voice acting. Nobody is saying this dude.
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Apr 20, 2020 19:02
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Andrast posted:People who wanted a straight remake should have been out the instant they changed combat to a real time system imo I remember when the E3 2015 trailer showed it off there were these takes lol
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Apr 20, 2020 19:02
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Necrothatcher posted:I'm totally down with changing stuff and telling a new story with the characters. But just... like.. do that. If you have a new story to tell just tell it. Crowbarring baby's first metafictional elements into the story to give yourself an in-universe excuse for changing things feels like cowardice. That depends on how large the changes are starting in part 2 and, perhaps more salient now, whether you think it's valid to thematically explore the emotional conflict that diverging from the original in significant ways could create. I think it's easy to handwave the Whispers as a "cowardly excuse" to change the story, but I think it's also very possible to read them as a metaphorical exploration of the nervous, conflicted feeling involved in making that choice in the first place. Remember that the Whispers only ever prevent huge plot diversions. Detours or even total rewrites were allowed to happen as long as they didn't derail the plot (Chapter 4, everything about Wall Market, etc.). The only things they stopped or undid were really, really big diversions. If, going forward, they started including huge plot diversions without setting them up somehow first, I think people would feel even more blindsided and betrayed than they do now. If this really is a bad way to do it--and again I'm not convinced it is--it's probably the lesser evil compared to blindsiding people with a big plot change in part 2 without any sort of "expect the unexpected from here onward" setup. But again my take is that this particular metafictional element isn't necessarily just cowardice or an excuse for changes, but also a thematic/emotional exploration of what it means to make those changes in the first place, and I think that's a perfectly valid thing to explore. For what it's worth, while I'll defend the idea of it and that including them as a thematic element is a perfectly good idea, I do think the execution ended up being clumsy.
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Apr 20, 2020 19:04
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CharlieFoxtrot posted:I remember when the E3 2015 trailer showed it off there were these takes lol I'm honestly shocked the combat system turned out this well tbqh.
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Apr 20, 2020 19:04
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Necrothatcher posted:I'm totally down with changing stuff and telling a new story with the characters. But just... like.. do that. If you have a new story to tell just tell it. Crowbarring baby's first metafictional elements into the story to give yourself an in-universe excuse for changing things feels like cowardice. I think they just wanted to make it clear to everyone playing that this is especially the case for future parts. With this change, they managed to change Aerith Dies, practically the most well-known spoiler in video games, into a completely new spoiler that has no answer yet. That's amazing! Without the killing fate narrative, no one would have ever really give credence to that sort of theory.
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Apr 20, 2020 19:04
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Can't rightfully say I give two shits about people who are butthurt they didn't like the game so I'm not even going to bother contributing to this topic. guts and bolts posted:See I would've gotten First Class rear end in a top hat right away. I've been looking for ways to seamlessly work "Nailed it, I know. Thank you." into a post or even casual conversation and just haven't had the opportunity. "Lab rat dog" is going to be harder to make land, but I'll be on the lookout. Now this i can get behind! They did the Rufus and the turks so much justice in this game and holy poo poo Tseng is a cold bastard! Lets talk about characters we like and how the remake improved on perfection instead of this pedantic "creators hate the fans" bullshit.
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Apr 20, 2020 19:05
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CharlieFoxtrot posted:I remember when the E3 2015 trailer showed it off there were these takes lol I was definitely wary of it myself because the combat in FF15 is pretty poo poo but I didn't have much faith the remake in general and thought it was going to suck. Turns out I was wrong as gently caress
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Apr 20, 2020 19:06
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Necrothatcher posted:Nobody is saying this dude. That is almost precisely what people like Vino a few days ago and Xaiter now are arguing - that FF7R is a betrayal of trust extended from the fans, that the development team (or at the very least the People In Charge, typically personified as Nomura) detest their own fanbase and that this game was a "gently caress you" aimed in their direction, and that anything other than a 1:1 remake is not the game people wanted. You can tell people are saying this, dude, because FF7R is an incredibly faithful remake barring the ending cutscene. Other than the battle system - which has been revealed for years, and is often leveraged as a "but I love this change!" bullet point in these bad takes - and the ending, everything that happens in FF7, up until the end of Midgar, also happens in FF7R; nothing of even small note was skipped or missed, and things were very often expanded and iterated out into logical extremes. It is, wholly, a remake. What the future holds is not a part of what this game actually is and nobody even knows precisely what direction that will take.
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Apr 20, 2020 19:06
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Flopsy posted:Now this i can get behind! They did the Rufus and the turks so much justice in this game and holy poo poo Tsung is a cold bastard! Lets talk about characters we like and how the remake improved on perfection instead of this pedantic "creators hate the fans" bullshit. Okay but what the hell happened to Rufus's... coat? It's like Lulu's belt dress in white with all the buckles undone.
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Apr 20, 2020 19:06
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Harrow posted:I'll ask something again you didn't respond to the first time: what if the creators feel just as conflicted about this as anyone else? This depiction still diminutizes the fans. They're clamoring for no change. Change is bad. We want Biggs and Wedge to die. We can't possibly be okay with the story being changed. The central conflict is now about preventing the story from the original from happening and the ghosts were the final boss of the Remake. The ghosts represent fans resisting any change. The ghosts are the bad guys. They're well meaning, they have good intent! But they're still a cosmic force to be defeated because change is necessary and the ghosts won't accept change. This depiction is unnecessary. The ghosts didn't need to be there at all. The meta-narrative could be dropped and it'd be a better, more faithful to the original product. But they still took the time and money and development cost to make them. So they're either throwing the entire plot in the trashcan to retell FF13 extended universe material or they exist of the sole purpose having a strawman fan to beat up. Regardless, this discussion is pointless and going nowhere. I'm convinced this isn't the project Nomura wanted to work on and the ending is attempt to reskin FF13 with FF7 stuff. I guess we'll see with Part 2.
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Apr 20, 2020 19:11
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Xaiter posted:This depiction still diminutizes the fans. They're clamoring for no change. Change is bad. We want Biggs and Wedge to die. We can't possibly be okay with the story being changed. Disagree
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Apr 20, 2020 19:12
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Necrothatcher posted:I'm totally down with changing stuff and telling a new story with the characters. But just... like.. do that. If you have a new story to tell just tell it. Crowbarring baby's first metafictional elements into the story to give yourself an in-universe excuse for changing things feels like cowardice. This is how I feel honestly. I don't care that the ghosts are gone now or w/e I would have preferred just things being changed on their own rather than having them pop up every other scene to be ominous. Well. Idk if I'd call it cowardice but I think it just didn't fit. FF7 wasn't about the crisis of the multiverse or destiny so it feels weird to put that in now.
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Apr 20, 2020 19:13
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Just Andi Now posted:Okay but what the hell happened to Rufus's... coat? It's like Lulu's belt dress in white with all the buckles undone. I actually looked up the concept art to get a better idea of it's layout so I can tell you he is definitely wearing pants under there. But I get the feeling Nomura let loose a little bit on the coat design. At least he ain't wearing up in the tropics LOL
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Apr 20, 2020 19:13
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guts and bolts posted:That is almost precisely what people like Vino a few days ago and Xaiter now are arguing - that FF7R is a betrayal of trust extended from the fans, that the development team (or at the very least the People In Charge, typically personified as Nomura) detest their own fanbase and that this game was a "gently caress you" aimed in their direction, and that anything other than a 1:1 remake is not the game people wanted. I couldn't give less of a poo poo about the semantics of it being billed as a remake or not. But nobody is arguing for it to be "the exact same game realized with a fresh coat of paint and updated voice acting."
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Apr 20, 2020 19:13
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Xaiter posted:snip You realize that Nomura had almost nothing to do with the FFXIII series other than character design, yes? Just wondering because you keep bringing it up.
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Apr 20, 2020 19:15
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Just Andi Now posted:Okay but what the hell happened to Rufus's... coat? It's like Lulu's belt dress in white with all the buckles undone. I like his old outfit from when he was a ginger better even if he was wearing 2 coats on top of each other.
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Apr 20, 2020 19:15
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Xaiter posted:This depiction still diminutizes the fans. They're clamoring for no change. Change is bad. We want Biggs and Wedge to die. We can't possibly be okay with the story being changed. I gotta be honest, I'm finding it incredibly frustrating how unwilling you are to look at things on a thematic level. You're insisting that these things must literally represent a specific real-life thing and that there must necessarily be a value judgment in that depiction. What I'm trying to present is that they're metaphorical and represent a feeling that the creators themselves also feel. Like I've said, Aerith is also conflicted. She's like the most sympathetic of all the party members, totally lovable, and very often correct, and she is not 100% sure defeating the Whispers was the right thing to do. The entire point is to thematically and emotionally explore the fear of the unknown for both the creators and the players, and I think you're just immediately jumping to the worst possible interpretation so that you can feel like you were intentionally wronged. Look at how faithful the rest of the remake is. Either the creators want us to trust them to create what they believe will be a great, maybe even better story, or they were intentionally tricking you into trusting them so they could punch you in the face and call you an idiot before churning out three more games of nonsensical garbage they know you'll hate. Which do you really, honestly think is more likely? Look at the way the Whispers are portrayed. Look at how Aerith feels about things. Look at how faithful and downright adoring of FF7 everything prior to the ending was. Which do you think is more likely?
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Apr 20, 2020 19:16
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Flopsy posted:Can't rightfully say I give two shits about people who are butthurt they didn't like the game so I'm not even going to bother contributing to this topic. Flopsy to the rescue, good call. Rufus seems to be the clear winner here. Rufus is somehow even less flappable and even more badass than he was in the original, and the dulcet tones of his voice actor really nail the vision I had in my imagination for this character back in 1997. Rufus was always, to me, supposed to be this impossibly cool and icy presence, a sort of splinter in your finger to remind you that Shinra could still be dangerous if called upon, and seeing that realized in FF7R was a treat. He doesn't give his (maybe kinda trite by 2020 standards) speech about ruling through fear, but that's basically okay; his boss fight speaks volumes as to the kind of person he is. He improvises, and he fights unfairly without qualms, and he isn't so much of an ideologue to die pointlessly in a battle more symbolic than meaningful. When he knows he's beaten, he leaves. A different villain would've died there in a vain attempt to avenge Daddy Shinra, or would have been caught out by unexpected variables or something. Rufus, instead, reads like someone who is probing the team for weakness and then fights Cloud less out of any belief that he is going to win ("Think you've got my number?" "Not at all.") and more to gauge his opponent's strength. When he's satisfied he got what he came for, he's out.
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Apr 20, 2020 19:17
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