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I don't think we need to just radically change character motivations because they successfully made a huge piece of poo poo villain, IMO.
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Apr 21, 2020 22:54
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guts and bolts posted:I honestly hope that for the sake of tonal consistency that they omit Hojo from the beach. I get it, ha ha, and the meme potential is off the charts, but the OG FF7's second-largest sin in my view is trying to get you to sympathize with (or find comedy in) its villains even when that is wildly, grotesquely inappropriate. Hojo is kill on sight. He is, as Flopsy put it, one of "... the most revolting character[s] to ever grace a video game." He tries to murder your party multiple times, considered/attempted to rape-breed Aerith, has committed God-only-knows how many crimes against humanity that we don't even see, and we eventually discover that he is basically directly responsible for all of the most odious tragedies in the FF7 narrative. He impregnates Lucretia then experiments on their unborn baby, who eventually becomes Sephiroth, and then when Vincent objects to this goddamn travesty Hojo guns him down and conducts crazy-rear end science on his corpse. When Hojo's colleague Gast grows a conscience and tries to flee Shinra with Ifalna and Aerith, the last surviving Cetra on the Planet, Hojo murders Gast and kidnaps Ifalna and Aerith. Ifalna eventually loving dies as a result of trying to escape him. It's a good scene for a couple of reasons. Firstly, it's not the same as getting buddy-buddy with the Turks, because the party absolutely is not being friendly with him. They clearly want to just ice him right there, because he's the absolute worst. All you need in the remake is a more compelling reason why they can't do that than just "because it'd cause a huge scene". Second, it's an important thing for establishing Hojo's defining character trait: he doesn't care about anything other than his own hosed up whims. The instant pursuing his theories became easier without Shinra, he bailed on them. And he has no concern about them whatsoever: he's openly sunning himself on the beach waiting for Jenova Project subjects to pass by so he can observe them. Nothing else even registers to him. Third, it establishes his completely nonsensical amount of success with women, which as it turns out is literally responsible for the entire plot of the game. nothing about the scene encourages sympathy for Hojo, he is one of the least sympathetic characters ever written. He's an abject monster and if anything displaying how he's so disconnected from reality and how other people think that he's willing to gently caress over the world government and then just hang out on a beach in broad daylight, and then respond to a confrontation with a group of eco-terrorists who he has personally done absolutely awful things to with total flippancy, really cements how much of a loving deranged lunatic he actually is.
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Apr 21, 2020 22:55
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Rhonne posted:What if they retcon it to Vincent being Sephiroth's dad and Hojo just lies about it to gently caress with Vincent/blackmails Lucretia into going along with it? That was like, one of my first ever fanfiction ideas, ha ha. I'm too biased on this subject matter. I think that whole subplot arguably works better than "nope, Lucretia just... fell in love with Hojo!!" because that poo poo sucks; it makes Lucretia look malevolently stupid, makes Vincent look pathetic and misguided, and Hojo like some sort of born winner... but to no, like, narrative end or purpose. Just because. Hojo stealing Vincent and Lucretia's kid and making that kid Sephiroth is a whole different bag of melodramatic cats but I think it's a better choice narratively. But again, biased. cock hero flux posted:It's a good scene for a couple of reasons. Firstly, it's not the same as getting buddy-buddy with the Turks, because the party absolutely is not being friendly with him. They clearly want to just ice him right there, because he's the absolute worst. All you need in the remake is a more compelling reason why they can't do that than just "because it'd cause a huge scene". The original Costa del Sol scene with Hojo is played for comedy, down to him getting fawned over by ladies and the party being utterly baffled by that reaction. If you wanna have Hojo be in Costa del Sol and hammer home the point that he's indifferent to Shinra because he has his own goals, fine - they actually did a bang-up job of hammering that point home in FF7R already, where he has multiple lines of dialogue that boil down to "I don't give a gently caress about Shinra lol." Because he is so bereft of charm or wit and is just so disgusting as a person it makes any woman who goes for that Hojo dick seem incomprehensibly stupid at best, which, you know, ehhhh? You could communicate that and leave the scene mostly intact by having the party see him but not directly interact with him (because I don't care about the local Shinra garrison, this is the guy you risk everything to make sure he dies), or by having him doing something similarly lackadaisical and pointless or whatever. I don't know. Maybe I'm just overly wound up about this, I concede. guts and bolts fucked around with this message at 23:03 on Apr 21, 2020 |
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Apr 21, 2020 22:59
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if you think anyone is gonna get tricked into supporting wanton human experimentation now because the dickwad you already dont like is on a beach, doing poo poo you still dont like, you probably need to get over yourself because that is such an insanely dire view of people.
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Apr 21, 2020 23:01
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cock hero flux posted:It's a good scene for a couple of reasons. Firstly, it's not the same as getting buddy-buddy with the Turks, because the party absolutely is not being friendly with him. They clearly want to just ice him right there, because he's the absolute worst. All you need in the remake is a more compelling reason why they can't do that than just "because it'd cause a huge scene". Sorry but the whole women liking Hojo is just a bit beyond believability. For christsakes he's old, filthy, and has the demeanor of a child rapist. I can't honestly see any woman with functioning braincells have anything to do with him. Even shallow ladies would have some sense of self preservation and he seriously gives off some "drug you then put you in my trunk for later vibes" guts and bolts posted:That was like, one of my first ever fanfiction ideas, ha ha. I'm too biased on this subject matter. I think that whole subplot arguably works better than "nope, Lucretia just... fell in love with Hojo!!" because that poo poo sucks; it makes Lucretia look malevolently stupid, makes Vincent look pathetic and misguided, and Hojo like some sort of born winner... but to no, like, narrative end or purpose. Just because. Yeah seriously. You nailed it. Flopsy fucked around with this message at 23:04 on Apr 21, 2020 |
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Apr 21, 2020 23:01
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Flopsy posted:Sorry but the whole women liking Hojo is just a bit beyond believability. For christsakes he's old, filthy, and has the demeanor of a child rapist. I can't honestly see any woman with functioning braincells have anything to do with him. I dunno how to break this to you but there are are millions of hosed up piece of poo poo monsters, in real life, over our history, who had wives who loved them.
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Apr 21, 2020 23:03
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The Hojo beach scene will absolutely be in there but they'll probably cut the beach babes with him.
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Apr 21, 2020 23:03
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Ibram Gaunt posted:I dunno how to break this to you but there are are millions of hosed up piece of poo poo monsters, in real life, over our history, who had wives who loved them. These aren't wives though. These are random young ladies sunning on a beach who see a literal goblin lurking on the periphery and are suddenly overcome with lust for him.
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Apr 21, 2020 23:04
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Flopsy posted:These aren't wives though. These are random young ladies sunning on a beach who see a literal goblin lurking on the periphery and are suddenly overcome with lust for him. Sure, but it proves that sometimes people love monstrous people. Look at every serial killer who has legions of fangirls writing letters to them in jail every day wishing they could marry them. Plus the general public didn't know about all that poo poo he did. To the general public hes some eccentric rich and famous scientist.
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Apr 21, 2020 23:05
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Ibram Gaunt posted:Sure, but it proves that sometimes people love monstrous people. Look at every serial killer who has legions of fangirls writing letters to them in jail every day wishing they could marry them. But they had actual charm and charisma and more often than not were good looking to a degree.They could play up a much more pleasant demeanor when they had to. Can you see Hojo pulling any of that off? Hojo is like Albert Fish to the Ted Bundy reference you're making.
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Apr 21, 2020 23:07
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He's rich and famous, that's enough for some people.
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Apr 21, 2020 23:08
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I don't know why people are so against our heroes being vaguely okay with the Turks in OG FFVII. Cloud says it himself, Sephiroth is the real threat to the Planet. Shinra post-Midgar is a side-act. They're a bunch of bungling buffoons who can't even rob an old failed astronaut of his tiny plane. The Turks aren't a threat, they're the stooges of clowns like Heidegger. I always loved the final confrontation with them in Midgar. It's why, even if I did Wutai, I always fight them. It's a very satisfying climax to the rivalry. There's no real reason to fight, Shinra is finished and you have been pursuing an evil far greater than them for 99% of the game by this point. But you fight them anyway because not everything needs a rational reason. Some things you just know you gotta do.
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Apr 21, 2020 23:09
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Ibram Gaunt posted:He's rich and famous, that's enough for some people. Those people are 20 year old beach bums who carefully follow the news and know how important he is? Hojo never came off as the sort seeking attention or fame. He just wanted opportunity to tear people apart at his leisure. I don't think he'd appreciate a lot of spotlight. It's a joke scene, I get it. But it's so wildly unrealistic to me I can't follow it. Maybe if they were openly drunk and he was at a Shinra sponsored event or something. Flopsy fucked around with this message at 23:13 on Apr 21, 2020 |
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Apr 21, 2020 23:10
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I just don't think the meeting with Hojo in Costa del Sol adds anything of value to the story. It's essentially a comedy beat where the party does everything short of mug to the camera and say "HOJO FUCKS???" I sincerely appreciated them doing things like updating Wall Market to be less of an hour-long gay joke and removing Tifa's calling Barret a "retard" in the Shinra Building stairwell. The Hojo "joke" scene in Costa del Sol is probably not quite as bad as those but I'd still prefer if the tone was different or the scene was omitted. I can respect it if you think I'm a humorless pedant. My bad.NikkolasKing posted:I don't know why people are so against our heroes being vaguely okay with the Turks in OG FFVII. I mean like I said Reno is really cool and has a neat visual design so he carries the brunt of the load in terms of making the Turks less vile, but, like, read the other posts earlier. Reno in OG FF7 straight up murders tens of thousands of people. Turning that guy into a "bungling buffoon" for comedy is a deeply weird choice to make for your narrative. Turning him ineffectual and powerless and pathetic makes sense, but making him the physical comedy boke and tsukkomi pair with Rude kinda doesn't? guts and bolts fucked around with this message at 23:14 on Apr 21, 2020 |
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Apr 21, 2020 23:12
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Flopsy posted:Those people are 20 year old beach bums who carefully follow the news and know how important he is? Hojo never came off as the sort seeking attention or fame. He just wanted opportunity to tear people apart at his leisure. I don't think he'd appreciate a lot of spotlight. his natural oiliness gives him a divine tan
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Apr 21, 2020 23:12
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The beach girls will still be all over him because that is an extremely anime style of joke and despite all the improvements this is still a fairly anime game.
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Apr 21, 2020 23:13
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Oxxidation posted:his natural oiliness gives him a divine tan That's just the first stage of his molt.
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Apr 21, 2020 23:13
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Flopsy posted:These aren't wives though. These are random young ladies sunning on a beach who see a literal goblin lurking on the periphery and are suddenly overcome with lust for him. it's also worth noting that as a shinra executive he's almost certainly one of the 10 richest people on the planet, maybe they're just prostitutes or something
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Apr 21, 2020 23:13
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Flopsy posted:Those people are 20 year old beach bums who carefully follow the news and know how important he is? Hojo never came off as the sort seeking attention or fame. He just wanted opportunity to tear people apart at his leisure. I don't think he'd appreciate a lot of spotlight. are you just loving stupid? honest question. shinra is famous the entire world over because they control all of it. you dont need to be living it up in the limelight when your company literally controls the world news. and im sure shinra world news spends plenty of tome talking about their own head of science. come on.
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Apr 21, 2020 23:14
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Hojo also has his own section in the little propaganda tour, even if he wouldn't play ball for the recording, Shinra is pushing him as a public figure.
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Apr 21, 2020 23:17
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Kagaya Homoraisan posted:are you just loving stupid? honest question. First off don't be loving rude. I haven't said poo poo to you to deserve that kind of response. Second of all we're pontificating over a joke scene and whether or not they can pull it off. It's not a sophisticated discussion so calm your tits.
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Apr 21, 2020 23:17
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NikkolasKing posted:Cloud says it himself, Sephiroth is the real threat to the Planet. Shinra post-Midgar is a side-act. They're a bunch of bungling buffoons who can't even rob an old failed astronaut of his tiny plane. The Turks aren't a threat, they're the stooges of clowns like Heidegger. Speaking of this, did OG FF7 have a better explanation for why the party decides Sephiroth is worth dropping everything to pursue than Aerith cryptically and suddenly getting a message from the planet that he's bad news because that part was pretty weak in the remake
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Apr 21, 2020 23:19
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Kagaya Homoraisan posted:are you just loving stupid? honest question. You're sure they spend plenty of time talking about their head of science who has a small, unkept audiovisual display in one room on one floor of the Shinra Building? A guy whose own projects are explicitly a secret that the vast majority of the rest of the company doesn't know about? Who looks like a gonked-out cross between a Bigmouth Billy Bass and every mugshot of every pederast ever? Or wait is that you just assuming some poo poo because... you like that scene in the OG game or whatever. Nah that's definitely a reason to call someone "loving stupid." Good call chief.
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Apr 21, 2020 23:20
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Ibram Gaunt posted:Hojo also has his own section in the little propaganda tour, even if he wouldn't play ball for the recording, Shinra is pushing him as a public figure. I could buy this as people are desperate to get close to something they perceive as a celebrity but this is all outside guessing on our part and hasn't especially been shown in game. At least not yet.
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Apr 21, 2020 23:21
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Ibram Gaunt posted:Hojo also has his own section in the little propaganda tour, even if he wouldn't play ball for the recording, Shinra is pushing him as a public figure. His display basically does not tell anybody what he does and he is abrasive and rude for the bit he was expected to cooperate with. By this logic women should be straight up forming a World War Z-style human tower to scale the Shinra Building and get into Reeve's office.
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Apr 21, 2020 23:23
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guts and bolts posted:His display basically does not tell anybody what he does and he is abrasive and rude for the bit he was expected to cooperate with. By this logic women should be straight up forming a World War Z-style human tower to scale the Shinra Building and get into Reeve's office. Well now I want to see that in part 2.....
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Apr 21, 2020 23:25
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guts and bolts posted:His display basically does not tell anybody what he does and he is abrasive and rude for the bit he was expected to cooperate with. By this logic women should be straight up forming a World War Z-style human tower to scale the Shinra Building and get into Reeve's office. I assume that at one point Reeve was extremely eligible but then people found out he had a fursona that he used to spy on his parents loving and everyone just quietly decided that was too far even for Midgar fetishes.
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Apr 21, 2020 23:26
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guts and bolts posted:You're sure they spend plenty of time talking about their head of science who has a small, unkept audiovisual display in one room on one floor of the Shinra Building? A guy whose own projects are explicitly a secret that the vast majority of the rest of the company doesn't know about? Who looks like a gonked-out cross between a Bigmouth Billy Bass and every mugshot of every pederast ever? Or wait is that you just assuming some poo poo because... you like that scene in the OG game or whatever. He runs one of the main Shinra departments and they have amazing propaganda. He's probably thought of as like Elon Musk or something. Everyone seems to respect the SOLDIER programme as a big success.
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Apr 21, 2020 23:27
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https://twitter.com/SamSykesSwears/status/1126683970601672704
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Apr 21, 2020 23:27
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I was mainly confused that Shinra chose to go "Okay, we'll just roll with the take where Hojo tells us to gently caress ourselves, why not". They could have put up an Out of Order sign like some of the other exhibits.
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Apr 21, 2020 23:27
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DeathChicken posted:I was mainly confused that Shinra chose to go "Okay, we'll just roll with the take where Hojo tells us to gently caress ourselves, why not". They could have put up an Out of Order sign like some of the other exhibits. I assumed they knew that it was literally impossible to get a better take from Hojo so they took what they could get.
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Apr 21, 2020 23:29
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DeathChicken posted:I was mainly confused that Shinra chose to go "Okay, we'll just roll with the take where Hojo tells us to gently caress ourselves, why not". They could have put up an Out of Order sign like some of the other exhibits. edit: Nevermind misconstrued the subject.
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Apr 21, 2020 23:30
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Real truth: If you are not literally talking to Hojo you probably get the impression he's just a weird genius dude. It's only the people who have to listen to him talking about breeding and how he stole a woman's corpse in the tone of someone getting off on it that it becomes clear just how loving terrifying he is. Most people probably don't realize especially since Shinra covers up the truth of SOLDIER stuff. In comparison Scarlet is assaulting TV reporters which probably makes her look like the 'scary one' to most people except those who have a very specific uncomfortable fetish.
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Apr 21, 2020 23:34
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DeathChicken posted:I was mainly confused that Shinra chose to go "Okay, we'll just roll with the take where Hojo tells us to gently caress ourselves, why not". They could have put up an Out of Order sign like some of the other exhibits. Why did they have "out of order" notices there anyway Also I wonder what will replace the Tifa/Scarlet slapfight
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Apr 21, 2020 23:35
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cheetah7071 posted:Speaking of this, did OG FF7 have a better explanation for why the party decides Sephiroth is worth dropping everything to pursue than Aerith cryptically and suddenly getting a message from the planet that he's bad news because that part was pretty weak in the remake yes, it's an entire extended flashback you get which shows Cloud and Sephiroth's history. It's at least an hour long and goes into great detail about why exactly Cloud would be so determined to deal with him. It happens like 10 minutes after you leave Midgar.
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Apr 21, 2020 23:36
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DeathChicken posted:I was mainly confused that Shinra chose to go "Okay, we'll just roll with the take where Hojo tells us to gently caress ourselves, why not". They could have put up an Out of Order sign like some of the other exhibits. it was the only take they could get where he wasn't committing crimes against humanity or loving something, or both
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Apr 21, 2020 23:37
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CharlieFoxtrot posted:Why did they have "out of order" notices there anyway Instead of a slapfight Scarlet has backup or a shitload of weapons or takes a SOLDIER serum or who gives a poo poo. But they don't slap each other so much as you have to beat the poo poo out of Scarlett as Tifa, solo boss fight. Bring it on baybeeeeee
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Apr 21, 2020 23:38
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Necrothatcher posted:He runs one of the main Shinra departments and they have amazing propaganda. He's probably thought of as like Elon Musk or something. Everyone seems to respect the SOLDIER programme as a big success. This pretty much hits the nail on the head. There are SO many people who think Elon Musk is awesome despite him being a gargantuan piece of poo poo monster.
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Apr 21, 2020 23:38
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CharlieFoxtrot posted:Why did they have "out of order" notices there anyway guts and bolts posted:Instead of a slapfight Scarlet has backup or a shitload of weapons or takes a SOLDIER serum or who gives a poo poo. But they don't slap each other so much as you have to beat the poo poo out of Scarlett as Tifa, solo boss fight. Bring it on baybeeeeee Jojo's bizarre adventure levels of punching.
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Apr 21, 2020 23:40
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CharlieFoxtrot posted:Also I wonder what will replace the Tifa/Scarlet slapfight
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Apr 21, 2020 23:40
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