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Hungary is a different country but people cried when the USSR spread socialism there
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# ? Apr 22, 2020 05:12 |
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# ? May 10, 2024 19:59 |
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The trot mischaracterization of SIOC would have described a "stupid dead end" but it's also a mischaracterization. SIOC is not the idea that you can just build communism internally without anything like a world revolution. The sort of "transition to communism by 2050" declared policy goals in e.g. today's China and Vietnam represent some sort of neo-SIOC that the right wing of socialism in the USSR may have dreamed of already but which wasn't the actual SIOC policy. You can't crit SIOC except in light of the other options the USSR supposedly had when the SIOC policy won there: it was the only country in the world interested in building socialism, devastated by war and largely run by amateurs, but large and primitive enough to have a relatively independent economy. SIOC then was the choice to build as much of a stable socialish society as possible, and propagandizing its achievements everywhere while belligerently supporting revolutionary movements across the world, actively collaborating to produce new world revolutionary conditions in the style of WW1. I have never heard of any plausibly better alternative that was available then. The best crit I can think of is that they did the S-part somehow wrong, given how the on-paper incredible situation achieved by 1950 was sort of wasted, how the international cooperation was left fairly shallow and ultimately bred terrible neo-SIOCs rather than putting it all to rest as policies that didn't reflect the times anymore.
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# ? Apr 22, 2020 05:56 |
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BrutalistMcDonalds posted:little do people know, stalin's original plan was not to use an icepick against trotsky, but to construct a giant icebreaker to sail to mexico and ram trotsky while he was chilling on the beach, but the icebreaker was lost along the way this is the Batman vs. Superman I want to see
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# ? Apr 22, 2020 06:56 |
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Getting mega depressed trying to think of an alternative to the USSR's shift to SIOC and becoming revolutionarily inert. it feels like there's this hard upper cap of reach that you run into if conditions internationally aren't perfect, basically "the lifetime of a man" in order to get as much done as you can before the movement you've put together gets infiltrated captured and killed by the prevailing culture of wealth/accumulation in the world, which can afford to invest itself into generational projects/reach and has the resources to see poo poo get done over centuries (terrible things mostly, like mass death/exploitation/genocide/war, etc) It's like you and capital are in a game of Monopoly and they own literally everything and your only chance is to roll straight 10's from the "GO" square hundreds of times in a row in order to put anything together lol
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# ? Apr 22, 2020 06:59 |
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just vote for the guy who says he'll give you 5 dollars when you pass go
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# ? Apr 22, 2020 08:16 |
SIOC is necessary again IMO due to capitalism and capitalist countries around the world embracing belligerent fascism as a reaction against the insane failures and contradictions within modern, globalized economics. You have America, the EU, Saudi Arabia/Gulf states, Brazil, etc. doing virtually all they can to systemically undermine and destroy the left politically and academically everywhere. This isn’t even getting into how a government regimentation of society on a scale not seen since the Stalin/Mao era is required if we hope to effectively prevent the biosphere on this planet from permanently succumbing to monopolized capitalism.
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# ? Apr 22, 2020 08:16 |
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remember when stalin thought biology was capitalism lol
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# ? Apr 22, 2020 08:18 |
Remember when Stalin saved the world from Nazi Germany and effectively established a unified block against the Fourth Reich?
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# ? Apr 22, 2020 08:21 |
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as GalacticAcid said, socialism spread to more than a few countries to the point where I wouldn't say that "Socialism in one country" was all that well-executed as a policy.
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# ? Apr 22, 2020 08:45 |
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smarxist posted:Getting mega depressed trying to think of an alternative to the USSR's shift to SIOC and becoming revolutionarily inert. it feels like there's this hard upper cap of reach that you run into if conditions internationally aren't perfect, basically "the lifetime of a man" in order to get as much done as you can before the movement you've put together gets infiltrated captured and killed by the prevailing culture of wealth/accumulation in the world, which can afford to invest itself into generational projects/reach and has the resources to see poo poo get done over centuries (terrible things mostly, like mass death/exploitation/genocide/war, etc) I dunno, I'm fairly optimistic due to taking a different perspective to the same thing, and hopes that people have learned from history by now. Like you, I don't think it's entirely possible to break the link between national rebuilding and inertia compromising revolutionary potential. But the USSR stayed a beacon of hope and base of support that could help cultivate new revolutionaries in their own struggles, without which they would ultimately have had less potential, not more. The outcome of WW2 specifically was kind of unfortunate in how in the west it produced party structures that were predisposed to treating the USSR as if it was still the peak of revolution and being distrustful of attempts to develop beyond what the inert dogmas of the time prescribed. Countries in the east were more free to go at things in their own, less stale ways, but still had to give off the right appearances to keep the trust and support of the industrial powerhouses of the bloc. But that specific outcome doesn't seem like something that would repeat just like that. If you think of the smaller leftover countries like Cuba and Vietnam, despite their dead-end stagnation they could never dominate and hold back the aims of new entrants to the scene, but need fruitful international partnerships. And China has no potential to be treated as a leader of a new wave of revolution, it's going to be complicit in killing its representatives moreso than helping them. So there should be a whole different level of room for constructive pluralism between nations to that they could pull each other forward rather than holding each other back. Lots of countries right now work within the imperialist institutional sphere out of sheer necessity, because it provides the only serious international trade framework. Simply put, everyone is pressured to follow success and the imperialist global framework is a monopoly of poo poo, it's not hard to do better at this point as long as one isn't blockaded from resources to do so. It will look like an eternal framework as long as it's able to bully everyone into compliance and then crash down like a house of cards.
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# ? Apr 22, 2020 08:55 |
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im gay
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# ? Apr 22, 2020 15:49 |
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THS posted:im gay Ths.
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# ? Apr 22, 2020 15:55 |
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# ? Apr 22, 2020 15:59 |
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https://twitter.com/UrOrientalist/status/1252969465760923650?s=19 motherFUCK jacobin what is this poo poo
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# ? Apr 22, 2020 16:00 |
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gradenko_2000 posted:https://twitter.com/UrOrientalist/status/1252969465760923650?s=19 That seems like a real bad failure of editing/phrasing more so than intent, the article preview ("Trump's Maximum Pressure on Iran is making COVID-19 worse") and the start of the sentence seem like the author was correctly trying to cast the US as the aggressor and they just were incapable of wording their statement in a way that is not asinine. Or, to be less generous, I guess they're trying to both-sides it? It's really poor editing either way.
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# ? Apr 22, 2020 16:03 |
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more like Whitening Knight White Knighting for jakkkobin
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# ? Apr 22, 2020 16:08 |
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GalacticAcid posted:more like Whitening Knight pfft https://twitter.com/welshbolshevik/status/1252344334218752004?s=20
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# ? Apr 22, 2020 16:11 |
GalacticAcid posted:more like Whitening Knight More like US jerkoffbin
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# ? Apr 22, 2020 16:11 |
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Jackbootbin...
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# ? Apr 22, 2020 16:12 |
GalacticAcid posted:Jackbootbin... Jacobin writers been jerkoffbin in US Jackbootbins.
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# ? Apr 22, 2020 16:14 |
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I think this is the article that tweet is referring to? https://jacobinmag.com/2020/03/us-sanctions-iran-coronavirus-deaths-medicine And it's just a republish from another site, the article seems fine.
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# ? Apr 22, 2020 16:17 |
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Raskolnikov38 posted:or an easier question: has an anarchist revolution or anarchist revolutionary movement ever succeeded define success, if it's "non trivial amount of people improve under anarchist socialism for a significant period of time" the zapatistas are doing well (having expanded massively last year), and their response to the coronavirus was about as decisive as cuba's
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# ? Apr 22, 2020 16:19 |
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cuba is larger though, no questions there!
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# ? Apr 22, 2020 16:20 |
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T-man posted:remember when stalin thought biology was capitalism lol stalin famously made fun of soviet writers who tried to claim that the pythagorean theorem was communist or whatever
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# ? Apr 22, 2020 17:11 |
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dex_sda posted:define success, if it's "non trivial amount of people improve under anarchist socialism for a significant period of time" the zapatistas are doing well (having expanded massively last year), and their response to the coronavirus was about as decisive as cuba's zapatistas don't like being called anarchist fwiu, they're a huge tent coalition of disparate ideologies and material groups
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# ? Apr 22, 2020 17:24 |
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T-man posted:remember when stalin thought biology was capitalism lol biological mechanisms and games do involve a lot of capital. from organizational capital of the first RNA structures over random prebiotic ones, to resource capital that allows organisms that have more food to seek out more food, to intergenerational capital among mammals that care for offspring
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# ? Apr 22, 2020 17:37 |
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although I'm guessing that's not what Stalin was talking about, and I'm further guessing that this is an expression of the left-right constructivist-essentialist thing where Stalin found biology to be too deterministic
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# ? Apr 22, 2020 17:39 |
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CYBEReris posted:zapatistas don't like being called anarchist fwiu, they're a huge tent coalition of disparate ideologies and material groups they don't like being called anything, and prefer to focus on socialist and ecological causes and bringing together people for whom those goals are shared, but the fact remains that their governance is decentralized and works on anarchist principles it's actually a crucial component of their success, the fluidity: to organise from bottom-up is the anarchist way but there are valid criticisms like 'how would you work in industry' and they kinda solve that in that some elements of their society are more communist (as in commune), some are more syndicalist etc. depending on where an approach is applicable. there's neat stuff in how they structure their paramilitary to respond to crises like the cartels without becoming a monopoly on violence along the same way. question is if this can be scaled above the about 700k-800k people they are currently, who could say without trying! but you want an example of a decently sized anarchist society flourishing, that's one that's twice the population of iceland. I have to admit that's the best I got, but I think it's impressive in the same way Cuba is (down to having to struggle against imperialist opponents of the system for decades) and enough to show that there is meat on that anarchist bone. dex_sda fucked around with this message at 17:47 on Apr 22, 2020 |
# ? Apr 22, 2020 17:45 |
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NotNut posted:although I'm guessing that's not what Stalin was talking about, and I'm further guessing that this is an expression of the left-right constructivist-essentialist thing where Stalin found biology to be too deterministic he's talking about lysenkoism
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# ? Apr 22, 2020 17:50 |
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reminder that anarchism isn't a political framework, but a political philosophy and therefor makes no sense to compare it to ML
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# ? Apr 22, 2020 17:51 |
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Ferrinus posted:stalin famously made fun of soviet writers who tried to claim that the pythagorean theorem was communist or whatever Pythagoras also had a habit of disappearing people if they didn't match to the Platonic ideal
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# ? Apr 22, 2020 18:29 |
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Victory Position posted:Pythagoras also had a habit of disappearing people if they didn't match to the Platonic ideal only whole numbers are real sheeple
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# ? Apr 22, 2020 18:32 |
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lol imagine thinking real numbers were actually real lol
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# ? Apr 22, 2020 18:32 |
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I was thinking more about the dodecahedron, but yeah
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# ? Apr 22, 2020 19:26 |
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gradenko_2000 posted:https://twitter.com/UrOrientalist/status/1252969465760923650?s=19 Girondin
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# ? Apr 22, 2020 19:41 |
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Tup
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# ? Apr 22, 2020 19:48 |
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Sorry, wrong thread
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# ? Apr 22, 2020 19:48 |
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uncop posted:The trot mischaracterization of SIOC would have described a "stupid dead end" but it's also a mischaracterization. SIOC is not the idea that you can just build communism internally without anything like a world revolution. The sort of "transition to communism by 2050" declared policy goals in e.g. today's China and Vietnam represent some sort of neo-SIOC that the right wing of socialism in the USSR may have dreamed of already but which wasn't the actual SIOC policy.
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# ? Apr 22, 2020 19:51 |
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# ? Apr 22, 2020 19:54 |
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# ? May 10, 2024 19:59 |
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uncop posted:The trot mischaracterization of SIOC would have described a "stupid dead end" but it's also a mischaracterization. SIOC is not the idea that you can just build communism internally without anything like a world revolution. The sort of "transition to communism by 2050" declared policy goals in e.g. today's China and Vietnam represent some sort of neo-SIOC that the right wing of socialism in the USSR may have dreamed of already but which wasn't the actual SIOC policy. quote:But first, we need to clear something up, because every time I post theory for liberating a country in a half-revolution, I get the same comments asking over and over what it means, even though I have a whole paragraph in the introduction explaining it, which even starts with "if you're wondering what a half-revolution is, read this before commentating to ask". But maybe what you guys need isn't a paragraph. Maybe you guys need an EXAMPLE.
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# ? Apr 22, 2020 20:18 |