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I think people are reading way more into the ending than they ought to and the dev team isn't going to spend an entire first game showing us a bunch of really well executed character moments and key plot beats from the original only to poo poo all over that in subsequent versions by turning it into Sephiroth and Jenova's Wacky Time Loop Adventure. I think they just needed to have a big spectacle at the end of the first chapter and maybe over-did it a little bit.
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Apr 23, 2020 20:30
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CharlieFoxtrot posted:Aerith gets norted jenova'd 'rothed Take your pick
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Apr 23, 2020 20:30
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Flopsy posted:Yeah but the big thing here is Aerith getting sent to lifestream essentially grants her godlike power. If Sephiroth is future aware wouldn't he realize killing her regardless if she summons holy or not would make her a player on par with himself? She's literally the epitome of "My death is just the beginning" except for the good guys. Well yeah. I think in this timeline, for it to be logically consistent, Sephiroth probably doesn't want her to die, both because he would know better and also because there'd be nothing stopping him from doing it "early". Which begs the question of what they're going to do to create that same sort of tension. My guess is that the writers are just going to kind of ignore this plothole and there will still be a very important life-or-death event at the City of the Ancients, regardless of whether there's any reason to be anymore.
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Apr 23, 2020 20:32
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tifa gets slashed at city of the ancients and falls down the stairs similarly to her encounter with sephiroth at the nibelheim reactor, only this time she doesn't get back up. sephiroth's attempt to kill aeris as well is intercepted by zack, who takes aeris on their own route as cloud abandons the party out of guilt/disgust at letting events turn out this way. hojo continues on his trek to the northern crater having injected himself with jenova cells early in response to his confrontation with the whispers, creating his own "reunion" with plans to supplant sephiroth in a perverse celebration of the surpassing adaptability of the human race. in this fanfiction i will
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Apr 23, 2020 20:33
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Really I think another thing that's up in the air is "how much more is Sephiroth capable this time around?" Aerith is too dangerous for Sephiroth to leave alive, but she's also too powerful if she's allowed into the Lifestream. Given that Sephiroth's whole thing is absorbing power from the Lifestream, maybe this time if he kills her, he can trap her soul like he trapped Holy, or straight-up absorb her power like he appears to do with the Whispers. It's hard to get a real read on what Sephiroth wants regarding Aerith's living or dying from part 1, I think. He tries to stop Cloud from meeting her in the first place, after all.
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Apr 23, 2020 20:36
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I feel like it would be kind of narratively "What" to have Aerith have a big internal struggle in this game about whether or not to deny fate, finally convincing the group to punch out Godzilla Destiny in order to make their own path of things, and then knowingly walk right into what she knows was her original death scene
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Apr 23, 2020 20:39
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If we take Sephiroth as metatextually aware his goal seems like keep the holy materia out of the Lifestream. Aerith can still die in that plan but the algebra works out that living Aerith probably has less chance to hold on to holy materia than dead Aerith with the materia in the Lifestream.
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Apr 23, 2020 20:41
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I've got this theory that since the time ghosts have been defeated and the heroes and Sephiroth are no longed tied down by fate, why should Sephiroth stick to his original plan? Depending on how off the rails the devs are willing to go, it is entirely possible that he'll come up with some new diabolical scheme that will allow him to gain godlike powers. Like he might not rely on using Meteor to wound the planet and gain a lot of lifestream that way. But Meteor is still in the logo, so that might still be a factor in the future.
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Apr 23, 2020 20:41
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zedprime posted:If we take Sephiroth as metatextually aware his goal seems like keep the holy materia out of the Lifestream. Aerith can still die in that plan but the algebra works out that living Aerith probably has less chance to hold on to holy materia than dead Aerith with the materia in the Lifestream. holy activated because aeris petitioned the planet to make it work, not because it fell into the water (though that probably helped prevent sephiroth from learning it activated after he shivved her) all materia is inherently part of the lifestream anyway, it's like it has a wireless connection to the planet's soul. otherwise you'd have to shove your hand into a vein of the stuff every time you wanted to sling a fireball Oxxidation fucked around with this message at 20:46 on Apr 23, 2020 |
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Apr 23, 2020 20:43
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Oxxidation posted:holy activated because aeris petitioned the planet to make it work, not because it fell into the water (though that probably helped prevent sephiroth from learning it activated after he shivved her) Petitioning the planet and activating holy materia seems one and the same so I'm leaning on the magic happened only when Cloud omnislashed Sephiroth and Aeris was able to get holy to work at that moment but will accept the other readings that probably exist in the other FF7 media that I've ignored.
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Apr 23, 2020 20:48
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zedprime posted:Sephiroth had to get his hands on meteor materia to call meteor though despite being hooked into the Lifestream. Bodily having access to it seems like a rule to access the knowledge in it. Especially one offs like meteor and holy, that they are crystals and not in the Lifestream means the Lifestream is probably lacking that knowledge. I always figured what happened was that Aerith successfully called Holy before Sephiroth stabbed her, but he was able to keep it contained in the planet's core, which is why the group needed to go down and kill him. When you go down there you can see Holy glowing brightly and trapped in a weird red stone prison thing. Then Holy comes up after you kill Sephiroth, fails to stop Meteor (was it weakened? Was the summoning incomplete? Did it see humans as a bigger threat to the planet than even Meteor? Dunno!) and Aerith wills the Lifestream to come out of the ground and save the planet where Holy failed. I didn't really think the White Materia falling into the water had anything to do with that, really.
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Apr 23, 2020 20:55
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Maybe the whole point of the Whispers is that they're trying to stop Dirge of Cerberus from happening.
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Apr 23, 2020 20:57
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Harrow posted:I didn't really think the White Materia falling into the water had anything to do with that, really. The shot in the water is just to show that the materia (which Aerith had explained earlier was useless) had been anything but and she'd managed to activate it. They use that shot again when Bugenhagen explains what happened when you take him to the Forgotten City later.
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Apr 23, 2020 20:59
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Just Andi Now posted:The shot in the water is just to show that the materia (which Aerith had explained earlier was useless) had been anything but and she'd managed to activate it. They use that shot again when Bugenhagen explains what happened when you take him to the Forgotten City later. Yeah, that's how I always saw it. I thought some people were saying the materia itself fell into the lifestream and that's how Holy was able to activate but maybe I'm misreading people's posts.
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Apr 23, 2020 21:00
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That all makes sense so now my argument is if Aerith is also metatextually aware now why not just summon holy to distract Sephiroth now that she's unchained.
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Apr 23, 2020 21:00
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zedprime posted:That all makes sense so now my argument is if Aerith is also metatextually aware now why not just summon holy to distract Sephiroth now that she's unchained. She might need to be in that specific place to cast the spell, maybe? Or maybe summoning Holy is a bad idea when there isn't a huge Meteor about to crash into the planet because what it does is seek out and destroy anything that's a threat to the planet--and that might be people if Meteor isn't there to specifically target. (this is all speculation and I don't think the "mechanics" of Holy are all that well-defined in the original so I'm just guessing at why she had to be there to summon it at that time)
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Apr 23, 2020 21:02
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What happened was that Aerith selected to cast Holy but then Sephiroth hit her and interrupted the cast, so she lost her ATB and MP but Holy didn't cast. She had to wait the whole rest of the game to get enough ATB to cast it again.
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Apr 23, 2020 21:07
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Flopsy posted:I heard somewhere that the love story in FF8 was heavily influenced by shoujo manga which was a flourishing genre at the time and you know what? It shows. Thank loving God they didn't take their cues from Hot Gimmick though. God FF8 is so loving good and deserves a remake far more than FF7 does. FF8 has some of the coolest loving locations. The flying Gardens crashing into each other. Fisherman's Horizon. The Lunatic Pandora. gently caress. Give me FF8 Remake (just keep Nomura away).
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Apr 23, 2020 21:13
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Mordiceius posted:God FF8 is so loving good and deserves a remake far more than FF7 does. FF8 has some of the coolest loving locations. The flying Gardens crashing into each other. Fisherman's Horizon. The Lunatic Pandora. gently caress. Give me FF8 Remake (just keep Nomura away). nomura at his most kingdom hearts-iest could do nothing to make FF8's storyline more hosed up than it already is
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Apr 23, 2020 21:16
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Mordiceius posted:God FF8 is so loving good and deserves a remake far more than FF7 does. FF8 has some of the coolest loving locations. The flying Gardens crashing into each other. Fisherman's Horizon. The Lunatic Pandora. gently caress. Give me FF8 Remake (just keep Nomura away).
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Apr 23, 2020 21:17
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Flopsy posted:I'm older than Cid and watching him now makes me laugh my rear end off. It'd be like if I suddenly started walking with a hunch and complaining about the drat kids all over my lawn at the ripe old age of 34. Don't dox me, yo. Cid presents an interesting challenge because he is a pretty problematic character in TYOOL 2020. You can't really spin alcoholism and domestic abuse in a positive way unless they just straight up drop those aspects of his character in the next game.
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Apr 23, 2020 21:17
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I don't think Cid is ever actually shown drinking booze. And Cid and Shera are in an emotionally dysfunctional relationship, in that she continues to stick around and help him out of guilt over ruining his dreams, and he uses her as a target for his frustrations with his life. But one of the big things in FFVII is that the characters are all pretty messed up, and there's a lot to be said for not making everything sugar coated and happy. He doesn't hit her, she doesn't seem to be forced to stay; it's a screwed up relationship, but I don't think it's anything that's too taboo to include in a piece of fiction specifically about how screwed up it is.
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Apr 23, 2020 21:23
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Hot take. If Aerith dies again it will retroactively make every single complaint and bitching about the remake 100% correct and true and justified, factually, emotionally, legally and morally.
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Apr 23, 2020 21:23
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Schwartzcough posted:See, in all this discussion of "will Aerith die/won't she", I think people miss an underlying plot hole/problem that has been raised by the whole "time travel/future awareness thing." In the original game, Aerith explicitly succeeds in summoning Holy but Sephiroth, sitting in the Northern Crater, holds it back. And when it comes out, it seems to help meteor instead of stopping it. But here's the thing, even without Meteor, there was a chance Holy would wipe out humanity. So it's not clear that's due to his influence. The planet could survive meteor after all - that was key to Sephiroth's plan after all. So Aerith calls on the lifestream to save it all. How? By talking to the planet. But she didn't need to die to do that, that's literally what her special power is. Nothing about her death is necessary, it's just what happened.
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Apr 23, 2020 21:24
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DeathSandwich posted:Don't dox me, yo. I do hope they get rid of the spousal abuse stuff but if Cid doesn't have a cigarette hanging out of his mouth at all times in the remake I'm not buying it
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Apr 23, 2020 21:27
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Cavelcade posted:In the original game, Aerith explicitly succeeds in summoning Holy but Sephiroth, sitting in the Northern Crater, holds it back. And when it comes out, it seems to help meteor instead of stopping it. I think the widely accepted interpretation is that Holy finally got released when Sephiroth was defeated, and it TRIED to stop Meteor, but it was too late to do it safely where it didn't put the planet/life on the planet at risk. The Lifestream then erupted to help Holy push Meteor away where it could explode safely. And it's heavily implied that Aerith being in the lifestream was instrumental in having the lifestream come out to help save the day, based on the final shot of a praying, smiling Aerith illuminated in lifestream glow. So it's that final bit that indicates that her being dead was kind of critical.
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Apr 23, 2020 21:27
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Ainsley McTree posted:I do hope they get rid of the spousal abuse stuff but if Cid doesn't have a cigarette hanging out of his mouth at all times in the remake I'm not buying it He's always eating pocky now. Imported from Wutai. Schwartzcough posted:So it's that final bit that indicates that her being dead was kind of critical. Like the person you were quoting said, the fact that she's helping you from beyond the grave doesn't imply that she couldn't have done the same thing while alive.
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Apr 23, 2020 21:29
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Remake Cid vapes
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Apr 23, 2020 21:29
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Veib posted:Remake Cid vapes gently caress, this is what it's going to be, isn't it
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Apr 23, 2020 21:30
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Clarste posted:He's always eating pocky now. Imported from Wutai. Well this kind of implies Sephiroth is hosed no matter what he does doesn't it?
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Apr 23, 2020 21:32
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Asema posted:My opinion so far is that I really like it a lot, outside of my current issue in which it had a huge emotional hype up moment with Kuja and the Queen and this "oh poo poo moment" and immediately put on the brakes for the Dagger stuff and I wanna get back to figuring out the cool plot relevant stuff The worst part of FF9 is that Amarant loving sucks as a character and ruins every scene he's in. Lanai should have become a party member. Not Amarant. Amarant might be one of my least favorite party members across the entire FF franchise.
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Apr 23, 2020 21:32
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Flopsy posted:Well this kind of implies Sephiroth is hosed no matter what he does doesn't it? No he just has to continue holding back Holy by not dying to a ragtag band of misfits in the North Crater. Like, he is clearly stronger than Holy.
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Apr 23, 2020 21:33
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Schwartzcough posted:I think the widely accepted interpretation is that Holy finally got released when Sephiroth was defeated, and it TRIED to stop Meteor, but it was too late to do it safely where it didn't put the planet/life on the planet at risk. The Lifestream then erupted to help Holy push Meteor away where it could explode safely. And it's heavily implied that Aerith being in the lifestream was instrumental in having the lifestream come out to help save the day, based on the final shot of a praying, smiling Aerith illuminated in lifestream glow. Make the next game go full Yoko Taro and give us branching endings that get progressively worse and worse as the character struggle branch off from the 'main' storyline. By the time you get to the final ending things are so hosed up that flying the Highwind into Meteor starts sounding like a sensible idea.
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Apr 23, 2020 21:35
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Clarste posted:No he just has to continue holding back Holy by not dying to a ragtag band of misfits in the North Crater. Ain't talking about Holy though I'm talking about Aerith. Her very existence alone fucks him over. Ainsley McTree posted:gently caress, this is what it's going to be, isn't it Remake Cid is a COD lets player hence the rampant cursing.
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Apr 23, 2020 21:39
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Whitenoise Poster posted:Hot take. If Aerith dies again it will retroactively make every single complaint and bitching about the remake 100% correct and true and justified, factually, emotionally, legally and morally. this, except if she lives
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Apr 23, 2020 21:41
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Flopsy posted:Ain't talking about Holy though I'm talking about Aerith. Her very existence alone fucks him over. Aerith stopped Meteor by summoning Holy and controlling the lifestream, but Cloud et al kinda already killed Sephiroth without her? Like, even if Meteor had hit in the ending, Sephiroth was already dead by that point anyway. Aerith did nothing whatsoever to help stop him, if you think about it. If Sephiroth had lived he could've stopped Holy and Meteor would've hit regardless.
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Apr 23, 2020 21:41
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Flopsy posted:Ain't talking about Holy though I'm talking about Aerith. Her very existence alone fucks him over. Aerith's death or non-death wouldn't change anything for Sephiroth if he just survives long enough for Meteor to hit. Lifestream itself wouldn't be able to help. It was needed because Holy was too late because the party took too long to defeat Sephiroth. As long as he survives that little bit longer, it'll be too late for even Aerith and the Lifestream to help.
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Apr 23, 2020 21:42
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All the more reason that Sephiroth, logically, should kill Aerith ASAP next time she goes to pee in the woods, BEFORE she can summon Holy. Edit: The most important change in this new timeline is that Cloud & Co. don't spend months making Chocobos breed, and so kill Sephiroth long before Meteor is a problem. Schwartzcough fucked around with this message at 21:45 on Apr 23, 2020 |
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Apr 23, 2020 21:43
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Mordiceius posted:God FF8 is so loving good and deserves a remake far more than FF7 does. FF8 has some of the coolest loving locations. The flying Gardens crashing into each other. Fisherman's Horizon. The Lunatic Pandora. gently caress. Give me FF8 Remake (just keep Nomura away). FF8 is my favorite but I almost love it because of pure aesethics. I also think Squall is actually one of the most interesting characters in the series. The story though is almost unsalvageable. Its like a bizarre fever dream after the Edea parade and even that was weird. It had amazing places and dungeons, and it still is my favorite Final Fantasy but I would be in favor of FF9 and FF6 being remade before FF8.
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Apr 23, 2020 21:43
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Babysitter Super Sleuth posted:The Wutai section can just be a mini-Yakuza game. Yuffie’s dad is Kiryu now, don’t ask questions. Alright. I'm back in.
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Apr 23, 2020 21:45
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