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My workplace is still saying to WFH for the foreseeable future and we’re not sending our son back to barnehage, both for the health of the workers and since it’s near my office so we’d have to ride a bunch of public transit just to drop him off.
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Apr 24, 2020 14:58
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Welp, the 'rona is now loose in one of the refugee concentration camps, specifically Kærshovedgård. Good job, Mette.
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Apr 24, 2020 15:24
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PederP posted:Ordoliberalist thinking is that a strong union is a benefit to the employers' organisations. They foster social stability, act as a single point of negotiation for far-reaching reforms impossible to carry out swiftly in a less centralized economy, etc. Ordoliberalism has been on the way out in Scandinavia for a while. As unionization goes down, the benefit of a corporatist labor market disappears for the employers (having a small number of non-unionized employee is beneficial for pressuring wages and working conditions - but too many and the cost of collective agreements outweight the benefits). Thank you for the explanation!
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Apr 24, 2020 16:24
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big scary monsters posted:Thank you for the explanation! I'm not sure if you're sarcastic or not, my detection abilities are rather flawed in that regard. But either way, I actually found reading up on Ordoliberalism rather enlightening. Considering that it makes up such a fundamental part of our social structure in Northern Europe, it's rather odd how it's almost never part of any educational curriculum. You need to get into university-level social sciences and history before it pops up. People are bombarded from primary school and throughout life with praise for "The Danish Model", but then it turns out be just German Ordoliberalism with a different coat of paint. I think that's really fascinating, and a lot of the less intuitive interplay between government, unions and employers can be traced back to ordoliberalist principles. So if you weren't being sarcastic, maybe even if you were, I really recommend looking into the roots of the much-vaunted social model of Scandinavia. I think there's a lot of mythology and bullshit about how it's portrayed both at home and abroad.
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Apr 24, 2020 20:16
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I was not being sarcastic, your post gave me some good starting points for further reading. Much as I prefer living in Norway to my home country, I don't really understand the political history of the place and it's hard to leave behind my assumptions on how things work based on how they do in the UK.
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Apr 24, 2020 22:34
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Historically in Sweden (and I presume in much of the rest of Scandinavia as well, although I'm not familiar with the details), unions, the social democrats and the employer organizations have had sort of a symbiotic relationship from the 1930's and at least up until the 1990's. The unions have been very strong but there's been few strikes and conflicts. The employers/capitalists are okay with the social democrats because they keep the socialists suppressed, offer lucrative government contracts and provide a stable and predictable regime, and while the unions are strong they keep the peace and provide a stable labor market with no unpleasant surprises there either, as long as they get their 2.5% yearly raises in collective bargaining. This is a form of corporatism - the idea that society can be organized into various groups and organizations that may be very different but share some kind of common interest. There are many remnants of it in all sorts of weird places in Scandinavia but it is clear that the model as such is no longer workable, as V. Illych L. said. Nevertheless a lot people just keep on keeping on as if it was still 1980.
TheFluff fucked around with this message at 23:20 on Apr 24, 2020 |
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Apr 24, 2020 23:16
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Any other Swede heard that poll regurgitated that says LO should start backing SD because apparently most LO members vote SD?
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Apr 25, 2020 05:27
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the big distinguishing factor between the nordic and german models is mostly that the nordics have much stronger and more active states - there used to be a willingness to use the state to push strategic investments etc directly - rather than partnering with high capital, the state would own big shares outright, an ideological import from british socialists
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Apr 25, 2020 06:43
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Katt posted:Any other Swede heard that poll regurgitated that says LO should start backing SD because apparently most LO members vote SD? I mean it could be true, I don't know much about how it stands in Sweden. For instance in Norway I think the two biggest parties represented among LO members, besides Ap (Norwegian social democrats), are FrP (anti-immigrant right) and Sp (agricultural/farmers' party, tehnically the same as you find in Sweden, but instead characterized by a weird agrarian-nationalism anti-centralization, conservative "ideology), Sp may have overtaken Ap recently actually. I think a key thing to realize is that while supporting and strengthening labor unions is a defining feature of much of left-wing politics (and a worthy and important one at that), the actual labor unions* in and of themselves aren't necessarily left-wing or socialist organizations. At their core they are interest associations or whatever you want to call it, their primary duty and reason to exist is to promote the interests of its members. And you could say the same about labor union members, particularly in societies where union membership is widespread. *Though I'd say the labor union movement or whatever you want to call it, is ideologically left-wing.
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Apr 25, 2020 16:34
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last i checked SV was more popular than Frp among LO members LO's main function is as a source of funds and a source of ideologically committed professionals from the leadership - hardly any LO reps are right wing and that's a big source of low-level help for the parties on the left
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Apr 25, 2020 16:51
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Labor unions also face an inevitable drift towards corruption, as do all large organizations. That's a big dilemma of unionization - by it's very nature it has to be monopolistic. The market solution of unions competing for membership as a method weeding out the corrupt and incompetent ones, doesn't work, because the power of a labor union is based on the threat of cutting off labor supply. Multiple unions are weak unions. Also, employers really hate making collective agreements with multiple unions, which also works against the 'market solution' for unions. But if unions are monopolistic, even democratically elected leadership will drift towards becoming entrenched in the hands of an internal elite, who abuse their positions for personal gain. Corruption and nepotism ensues. The nature of representative democracy selects for individuals who are ruthless, power-hungry, dishonest and pragmatic. Herein lies the indication of a (partial) solution. Representative democracy is not the proper way to elect union leadership. I am a firm believer that whenever representatives are needed - a random draw should be used - not necessarily including any and all members, but election through majority vote leads to ideological entropy. As we see in representative democracy in general. Having completely random people in charge of a union dictates that a larger number of decisions need to be approved by direct (or semi-direct) democratic processes, but I think that is not simply a cost of stochastic representation, but in some ways a benefit. It enforces a wider democratic validation of any decision important enough that it cannot be left to the whims of a single or a few individuals. Representative democracy is a sham in the case of unions as in the case of parliaments. I hope one day more people will recognize it as a force of entropy, and cease the almost religious devotion to an institution, which so obviously has been at heart of great tragedy and the corruption of entire nations.
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Apr 25, 2020 17:01
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Randarkman posted:I mean it could be true, I don't know much about how it stands in Sweden. For instance in Norway I think the two biggest parties represented among LO members, besides Ap (Norwegian social democrats), are FrP (anti-immigrant right) and Sp (agricultural/farmers' party, tehnically the same as you find in Sweden, but instead characterized by a weird agrarian-nationalism anti-centralization, conservative "ideology), Sp may have overtaken Ap recently actually. The thing is that classic marxism has next to nothing to say about immigration and culture war stuff, no matter what left wingers or far right "cultural marxism" conspiracy theorists beleive. The labour movement was the foundational pillar of the left and the main concerns were democracy and improving the lives of workers, sometimes at the unreasonable expense of farmers (which is it's own problem). This left the domain of culture wide open for "left leaning" urban populations and right wingers to use as their main arena for struggle in scandinavia once the economy began stagnating. All this while unions remained focused on their old issues, many of which they made less and less relative progress on (especially in politics via the liberalisation of SocDems). On the left, the culture war is mostly the concern of materailly secure urban bourgeoisie with countertraditionalist leanings whereas the actual labour unions are more invested in job security, which as a consequence include a pretty open critique to globalization and migration. If SocDems pander to hard to the former they loose the latter, that's whats happened in LO in Sweden. Postorder Trollet89 fucked around with this message at 17:21 on Apr 25, 2020 |
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Apr 25, 2020 17:13
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When SD can provide actual power to LO we might start to discuss this, otherwise this is is just a dream for SD. For LO to give up on S, S basically needs to become irrelevant from a political power perspective, which is not likely to happen in the next couple of election periods.
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Apr 25, 2020 17:15
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the scandinavian LO movements (again, functionaries and local bosses who make up most of the ideological cadres) have a pretty strong instinct for internationalism and solidarity work. it's going to take a lot of doing to win that set over to a reformed nazi party
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Apr 25, 2020 17:21
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Cardiac posted:When SD can provide actual power to LO we might start to discuss this, otherwise this is is just a dream for SD. Correct. Remember S is the "political wing" of LO. Well, was.
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Apr 25, 2020 19:33
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PederP posted:Labor unions also face an inevitable drift towards corruption, as do all large organizations. That's a big dilemma of unionization - by it's very nature it has to be monopolistic. The market solution of unions competing for membership as a method weeding out the corrupt and incompetent ones, doesn't work, because the power of a labor union is based on the threat of cutting off labor supply. Multiple unions are weak unions. Also, employers really hate making collective agreements with multiple unions, which also works against the 'market solution' for unions. Funny that this type of ideological democratic hand wringing never happens over industry representation groups that represent all the bosses and owner.
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Apr 25, 2020 19:43
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Katt posted:Funny that this type of ideological democratic hand wringing never happens over industry representation groups that represent all the bosses and owner. That's because they never strived to be anything else. They're more oligopolies than representative democracies. Whomever foots the bills and career dinners has all the power.
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Apr 25, 2020 20:58
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Katt posted:Funny that this type of ideological democratic hand wringing never happens over industry representation groups that represent all the bosses and owner. They would be weakened by democratic representation, so that would be good. But they don't use democratic elections to elect leaders. That's all power politics and old boys networking.
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Apr 26, 2020 07:52
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V. Illych L. posted:last i checked SV was more popular than Frp among LO members Well, color me wrong then. I'm not sure that it matters to the point you're making but when I talk about LO members I mean the members of the unions that make up LO, the actual union functionaries and such are kind of a different group of people from the members at large (though of course they are members as well).
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Apr 26, 2020 08:46
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it's been a while since i studied the polling, but last i checked (before frp left government) both frp and SV were at around 10% with SV edging out frp, and with Ap at about 35%, significantly down from their peak but still strong. iirc the municipal election results bear this out a lot of the LO members who would normally be susceptible to frp rhetoric prefer Sp, a party not actively hostile to LO as an institution and more willing to use subsidies and such to stabilise local economies
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Apr 26, 2020 09:23
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The Liberals forced us to vote with the socialists to prevent companies from paying out government aid to shareholders!  https://politiken.dk/indland/politik/art7762489/I-kopierer-Enhedslistens-politik
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Apr 26, 2020 09:31
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SplitSoul posted:The Liberals forced us to vote with the socialists to prevent companies from paying out government aid to shareholders! lol we didn't get this done up here, there was a case where oslo's louis vuitton shop got 200000 NOK despite still making a profit, simply because their sales were significantly down that money's going straight into the pocket of M. Arnault
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Apr 26, 2020 09:37
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Oh hell, Arnold Busck is going down. They were my only local supplier of Discworld novels, what a terrible shame. 
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Apr 27, 2020 13:25
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In better news: I got the job at MTR! So now I won't let starvation kill me at least.
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Apr 27, 2020 17:53
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BigglesSWE posted:In better news: I got the job at MTR! Lucky Ducky! 
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Apr 27, 2020 18:38
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THE BAR posted:Oh hell, Arnold Busck is going down. They were my only local supplier of Discworld novels, what a terrible shame. Not too long ago, they lost a double-digit millions to problems with a new IT system for their cash registers, inventory management, etc. They never fully recovered and would likely have collapsed without Corona unless they managed a last-minute change of direction and profitability. It's a lesson that dropping the ball when doing such major IT overhauls can kill most companies. Most of the time we don't hear about it, and just see the company get gobbled up by some competitor or hedge fund vulture. But I've seen it from the inside a few times, and it's horrible seeing a company, perhaps not healthy, but doing ok, getting wrecked by botching IT investments. In the public sector it doesn't cause bankruptcy or take-overs, it just murders any semblance of productivity and makes life hell for those who work there. Or it causes billions of losses to the state in lost revenue, but that's just the spectacular cases.
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Apr 29, 2020 10:21
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Case in point: Flexus.
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Apr 29, 2020 11:17
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Norwegian national ID cards 
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Apr 29, 2020 11:52
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I've got 1 month left of ID and then I have to start carrying my passport around with me. Banks just say to get the non-existent national ID.
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Apr 29, 2020 11:54
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driver's license master race.
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Apr 29, 2020 11:57
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Cynic Jester posted:Norwegian national ID cards we so badly need to reform public sector IT procurement it's not even funny
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Apr 29, 2020 12:01
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I got a card with ID from dnb a few years ago when my regular bank stopped issuing cards with IDs. That might still be an option if you don't mind dealing with them.
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Apr 29, 2020 12:02
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V. Illych L. posted:we so badly need to reform public sector IT procurement it's not even funny 
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Apr 29, 2020 12:48
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poot posted:I got a card with ID from dnb a few years ago when my regular bank stopped issuing cards with IDs. That might still be an option if you don't mind dealing with them. I don't think they do that any more.
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Apr 29, 2020 12:48
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V. Illych L. posted:we so badly need to reform public sector IT procurement it's not even funny If we need a pan-north agency for anything it's IT procurement like holy poo poo. Centralize as much as possible because any sort of decentralised IT procurement is a disease from both a UX and security perspective.
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Apr 29, 2020 13:19
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PederP posted:Not too long ago, they lost a double-digit millions to problems with a new IT system for their cash registers, inventory management, etc. Oh, I think we bid on that contract but lost.
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Apr 29, 2020 13:38
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thotsky posted:I've got 1 month left of ID and then I have to start carrying my passport around with me. Banks just say to get the non-existent national ID.
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Apr 29, 2020 18:09
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Groda posted:How do they gently caress this up? It's the exact same upphandling we had in Sweden. i'm almost positive that huge amounts of grift are involved
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Apr 29, 2020 18:29
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like, i haven't followed the particulars of this case, but very often with public procurement of individual stuff (i.e. not permanent contracts but, like, individual projects) you see suspiciously new and clean companies doing poo poo without much coordination
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Apr 29, 2020 18:31
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V. Illych L. posted:like, i haven't followed the particulars of this case, but very often with public procurement of individual stuff (i.e. not permanent contracts but, like, individual projects) you see suspiciously new and clean companies doing poo poo without much coordination We don't often like to talk about it, but there's just a whole bunch of stuff pointing to substantial occurences of corruption and grift in public procurement and construction projects in Norway. I'm fairly certain you have a bunch of politicians with essentially compromised interests and stakes in companies that are awarded public contracts and/or they give insider information on this to people who they know who do. Consequence of all of it being a pretty small circle all things considered. And it doesn't just result in these delays like you see here and in the construction projects, but you also see other negative consequences coming out of it, such as in Bergen where I'm almost certain that grift, nepotism and other forms of corruption were very influential in causing the local authorities to approve the (very expensive) construction and opening of big new schools in the city center (public and private) without much regard for the fact that this would result in scool overcapacity (that is there were far too many school spots and too few students) across the district. When this predictably happens the local authorities just shrugged and unilaterally voted to close down a number of public high schools outside of the city center in less wealthy areas (Laksevåg had about 3 schools closed IIRC, one of which I worked at) in order to adress the issue of overcapacity, saddling students with pretty long commutes as they were haphazardly relocated to other schools that could take them and the teachers and staff, many of whom were settled down with families in the local area to get new positions as far afield as Voss and beyond. Small rant. But this whole thing just legitimately makes me loving angry. Randarkman fucked around with this message at 02:05 on Apr 30, 2020 |
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Apr 30, 2020 01:56
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