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Jedit posted:In the Panther's first appearance, Johnny Storm remarks on how amazingly advanced and civilised Wakanda is because they had white people stuff. If there was a political statement there, it was accidental. It's a concept that got fleshed out and done with fewer clunkers by a bunch of creators since then working with Wakanda, and the Thing has some cringey lines about Boomba the Jungle Boy or whatever, but most of the dialogue is rooted in "how can this country that claims to be poor and agrarian have sci-fi laser guns?" and not "how can an African have nice things". Also it's obviously cherry-picked, but the initial letter column response to Black Panther debuting is kind of fascinating; there are some negative letters, but pretty much every one is negative in a way that suggests that the FF book has been going downhill with all these lame new characters like Galactus, Silver Surfer, Black Panther, etc. Bring back the classic FF characters! Some choice quotes from that period, not all of them about Black Panther but probably relevant to this thread on some level: quote:I was joyous about your breaking all the precedents of your profession, and introducing a Negro as a hero in the form of Sgt. Fury's Gabe Jones, and as the man-on-the-street. This subject, before the advent of Marvel, seemed to be an unwritten taboo, but now a real live Negro super-hero!!! This almost had me doing flip-flops and walking around in a daze, saying "This is good... this is good..." (Stan's response to the above) quote:We too are fond of the Black Panther -- not because he's a Negro -- but because he's a right Joe! In fact, isn't this the most important lesson to be learned -- we're all entitled to our likes and dislikes -- nobody has to be a Pollyanna -- but let's base our opinions of a fellow human being on his basic qualities and character -- not on the color of his skin, the name of his God, or the place of his birth! Perhaps a comic mag isn't the proper place for this type of discussion... [or] possibly one of the best places of all! 'Nuff said! quote:But the main thing that made my heart sing is the latest in your concerted effort to bring comic literature to a more adult level by portraying members of races other than white. I have a feeling that the Black Panther will turn out to be the first great Negro hero-villain in comic book history! quote:Sue has to do something other besides standing around looking scared or loving or angry. What she needs is a good female villain to fight -- say some chick who tries to entice Ben or Johnny or even (horrors!) Reed away from the F.F. quote:[Your stories] have been steadily going down the drain ever since. The first step was the appearance of Galactus.. blah!!! FF #52 was as bad as issues #48-50. Galactus has his so-called "elemental converter", and the Black Panther his "jungle" of traps for the FF to surmount. The next thing you know, the FF will be be fighting "The Creature from Beneath the Garbage Can" with his uncanny "Onion Gun. Enough!! Enough new menaces for the FF to battle! Enough super-scientific hogwash!!!" quote:The Black Panther is one of your better characters, much superior to run-of-the-mill super space villains like Galactus. quote:I'll tell you the bare truth. The Black Panther stinks! A lot of your other villains do, but to add another to their ranks is unbearable. The Black Panther is entirely too ridiculous. One more thing -- cut the comedy! Your jokes have polluted all of your mags with corny nicknames and funnies. This letter may not change your views any but nevertheless, I will remain a loyal fan for many years. I have a small group of neighborhood friends who collect Marvel Comics and each shares my views in this letter. quote:One of my roommates flunked his draft test because he was spending more time reading and rereading Daredevil #18 than he was studying. His only question is, "Are Marvel Mags available in Saigon?" quote:I would like to congratulate you on your series of comic magazines -- also on your lively attack on Communism and your subtle use of real-life problems to bring out the best and the worst in your fantastic, wacky, wonderful superheroes. Anyway this just reminds me in general of how silly the "keep your politics out of comics" and "imagine if STAN AND JACK had to deal with whiny ants on the Internet when creating their classics!" and a lot of other chestnuts people like to throw out are.
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Apr 25, 2020 15:17
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Those late 60s comics are filled with "communist leaders are bad, but the people are good" stories. The best (worst) is when Thor randomly interrupts cool god poo poo to go deal with Vietnamese soldiers.
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Apr 25, 2020 17:23
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Hell, I distinctly remember reading a Jack Kirby interview where he mentioned one of the motives for creating Black Panther was he realized they'd not created a black superhero and wanted to fix that.
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Apr 25, 2020 18:15
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I always figured Black Panther was just Kirby/Lee taking an old pulp trope (deep in the jungle there is this lost, isolated ancient civilization) and putting a twist on it (...that is actually high-tech with flying cars and computers and poo poo), flipping the script on who the actual primitives were.Edge & Christian posted:Also it's obviously cherry-picked, but the initial letter column response to Black Panther debuting is kind of fascinating; there are some negative letters, but pretty much every one is negative in a way that suggests that the FF book has been going downhill with all these lame new characters like Galactus, Silver Surfer, Black Panther, etc. Bring back the classic FF characters! If you go back to the 1990s USENET archives and look up alt.tv.simpsons postings, you'll see people panning all of the classic episodes when they were first aired. Whose idea was it to make an entire show about a stupid monorail? Bart didn't tell anyone to eat his shorts even once! I'm through with this show!
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Apr 25, 2020 18:38
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I don't know if it's real or not but I always loved the story about how some higher ups told Kirby to put more white people in BP and so next issue he had T'Challa beat up the KKK.
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Apr 25, 2020 22:09
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Retro Futurist posted:I don't know if it's real or not but I always loved the story about how some higher ups told Kirby to put more white people in BP and so next issue he had T'Challa beat up the KKK. It's not real, that story was written by Don McGregor and drawn by Rich Buckler and the great Billy Graham, one of the few black artists working at the big two at the time, starting in Jungle Action #19. It was still an ongoing plot when the book was cancelled. In fact the McGregor run was axed to make room for Kirby's auteur-turn on the relaunched Black Panther series, which was in comparison astonishingly apolitical. Jungle Action btw is well-worth searching out if you haven't read it, it's way ahead of its time in how it treats seriality and is a pretty slick, smart political thriller with a lot of KKK guys getting beaten up. How Wonderful! fucked around with this message at 22:22 on Apr 25, 2020 |
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Apr 25, 2020 22:17
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Retro Futurist posted:I don't know if it's real or not but I always loved the story about how some higher ups told Kirby to put more white people in BP and so next issue he had T'Challa beat up the KKK. Don McGregor wrote a Black Panther vs. the Klan story, but I'm not aware of it having anything to do with editors (in this case I guess it would have been Marv Wolfman I guess) telling him to put more white people in the book. And yeah, I read them all after the fact and out of release order but the jump from McGregor/Graham/et al Jungle Action Black Panther over to Jack Kirby High Adventure Black Panther (as featured in my avatar) must have been bonkers for the monthly reader. I'd say that BP run was intended to a Kirby spin on an Indiana Jones cash-in but it came out four years before Raiders of the Lost Ark. I know both works share the sort of old pulpy serial adventure DNA, I'm just not sure why Kirby decided to apply it here. Edge & Christian fucked around with this message at 22:27 on Apr 25, 2020 |
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Apr 25, 2020 22:22
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I should have known, if it was a true Kirby story he'd have killed a few Nazis along the way
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Apr 25, 2020 23:43
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Retro Futurist posted:I should have known, if it was a true Kirby story he'd have killed a few Nazis along the way Four. It was always four Nazis.
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Apr 25, 2020 23:54
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I'm now imagining a version of Mythical Bill Brasky Jack Kirby who is like Poet Laureate of the West/Monster Killer Dalton Wilcox. Every Jack Kirby story goes "so Stan and Jack were sitting at a diner in Midtown and 60 Minutes had a feature on the surf craze. Jack gazes up at the television, transfixed by the body movement of the surfer at the crest of the wave. He tells Stan that he's got an idea for a new character. Then he gets up and shoots the line cook in the head. Jack was pretty sure he was a Nazi." "Jack Kirby swung by Skywalker Ranch and everyone was absolutely starstruck. He nodded approvingly at some of the concept art for Jabba's Palace, and posed for a photo with George. Unfortunately, he lit the prop warehouse on fire and locked everyone in it, saying that he can smell a Nazi from fifty yards. We tried to explain it was a leftover maquette from Raiders of the Lost Ark, but he said he was too busy listening to the beautiful music of Nazi screams." "Jack was getting up there but one day he was approached by a young Macauley Culkin at a signing at Golden Apple. The King took one look at him and tried to choke him out with a Doctor Who scarf, screaming HOW DO YOU LIKE THAT, FRITZ"
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Apr 26, 2020 00:16
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I assume all these stories are actually true. 
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Apr 26, 2020 00:26
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Kirby was going to do a story where the FF fight a Nazi Fantastic Four (the Furhrer’s Four), but he instinctively stabbed the sketches as soon as he finished drawing them.
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Apr 26, 2020 00:30
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Open Marriage Night posted:Kirby was going to do a story where the FF fight a Nazi Fantastic Four (the Furhrer’s Four), but he instinctively stabbed the sketches as soon as he finished drawing them. The only reason Kirby drew the Hate-Monger story in FF #21 is so that he could kill Hitler again. Kirby was later heard to remark that it wasn't as much fun the second time around.
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Apr 26, 2020 00:45
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Random Stranger posted:The only reason Kirby drew the Hate-Monger story in FF #21 is so that he could kill Hitler again. Kirby was later heard to remark that it wasn't as much fun the second time around. Hang on - Hitler shot himself. So doesn't it follow that to kill Hitler again, Jack Kirby must have been Hitler? Man, talk about death of the artist.
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Apr 26, 2020 01:14
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The world wasn't ready for a comic artist single handedly going through Nazi Germany to kill Hitler. Killing 4 Nazis at a time of course. Except for the time he killed 7, he found a group of three, killed him, then realizing his work wasn't done he went looking for a 4th, but only found another group of 4, so he rounded down and slept content enough for the night.
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Apr 26, 2020 05:42
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Anora posted:The world wasn't ready for a comic artist single handedly going through Nazi Germany to kill Hitler. Except that one of Jack Kirby's most famous creations is literally a comic artist who singlehandly went through Nazi Germany to... well, to punch out Hitler. ( Recent canon says that he wouldn't have made it very far on his art skills alone. ) e: which one, Darth Brooks? They work for me. Cassius Belli fucked around with this message at 08:26 on Apr 26, 2020 |
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Apr 26, 2020 06:22
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One of those links is dead. The last page wasn't showing up but it is now. Darth Brooks fucked around with this message at 07:47 on Apr 26, 2020 |
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Apr 26, 2020 06:23
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Yond Cassius posted:Except that one of Jack Kirby's most famous creations is literally a comic artist who singlehandly went through Nazi Germany to... well, to punch out Hitler. The real dark side of the comics industry is Captain America rudely crumpling up whoever's newspaper that was without asking if they were done with it. Logan needs his crossword fix.
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Apr 26, 2020 06:44
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Jedit posted:Hang on - Hitler shot himself. So doesn't it follow that to kill Hitler again, Jack Kirby must have been Hitler? No, Jack transmogrified himself into the gun.
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Apr 26, 2020 06:59
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Jedit posted:Hang on - Hitler shot himself. So doesn't it follow that to kill Hitler again, Jack Kirby must have been Hitler? He shot himself in the same way the younger sibling is hitting themselves.
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Apr 26, 2020 07:03
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Jim Hammond killed Hitler.
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Apr 26, 2020 07:36
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Darth Brooks posted:One of those links is dead. How appropriate
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Apr 26, 2020 07:38
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Lurdiak posted:Jim Hammond killed Hitler. With a gun fashioned from a piece of Jack Kirby's soul.
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Apr 26, 2020 07:40
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Yond Cassius posted:Except that one of Jack Kirby's most famous creations is literally a comic artist who singlehandly went through Nazi Germany to... well, to punch out Hitler. Joe Simon created Captain America.
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Apr 26, 2020 09:14
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Jedit posted:Joe Simon created Captain America. With Jack Kirby.
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Apr 26, 2020 09:28
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I thought I remembered seeing an article with Kirby quotes about introducing Black Panther from when the film came out, turns out it was Neal Kirby. He's obviously going to more inclined toward a favorable view on it* but seems like he thinks it was, if not intended as a statement, at least from some recognition of the importance of representation: quote:Neal Kirby, a high school senior when Black Panther first appeared in Fantastic Four No. 52 in summer 1966, remembers his father talking to him about introducing the character. *I figure he probably wouldn't intentionally misrepresent his dad's views just to match the tone of a film-release in the interview, but 
surc fucked around with this message at 09:51 on Apr 26, 2020 |
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Apr 26, 2020 09:44
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I can't track it down but that matches up with an Jack Kirby interview I read well before the BP movie- the interview itself was from like the 90s? He basically said what Neal said. It was also interesting because in it he briefly reflected on his opposition to unionization as a young artist and it seemed he regretted it in hindsight.
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Apr 26, 2020 12:43
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I wondered where all these posts came from and find a lot of Kirby-inspired Nazi-smashing stories.  Thanks folks.
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Apr 26, 2020 13:10
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We don’t know how much action Jack actually saw in WWII, but we can believe he did whatever he did with gusto.
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Apr 26, 2020 19:10
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I wasn't sure what thread to put this in but this seems like it probably fits the bill! If not, I'll move it. Donny Cates is doing a comic either called God Hates Masks ("I understand it may be the first creator-owned 'event comic' – something comparable to Absolute Carnage or Secret Wars in scope.") Or possibly Pray the Capes Away quote:And yes, that's a comic shop being firebombed. Which, in these times, sure, might be an uncool thing to show. But this book is about a lot of things. And one of the more important things is how comics shops are places we can escape to and feel safe. And how they need saving. Nothing quite like comparing superhero comics to queerness and places of worship in a single ill-conceived comic! I'm sure someone in the world could pull it off, but why does the person trying it have to be Donny Cates?
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Apr 26, 2020 19:12
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Can't wait to find out if Knull is a TERF or not.
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Apr 26, 2020 19:14
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y'all whats up with Donny Cates
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Apr 26, 2020 19:46
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Alaois posted:y'all He thinks he's better than he is.
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Apr 26, 2020 19:47
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Open Marriage Night posted:We don’t know how much action Jack actually saw in WWII, but we can believe he did whatever he did with gusto. We know a good deal. Landing at Omaha Beach, being made a scout when they found out he could draw,* fought Himmerl's tanks (possibly with his bare hands, it's not recorded but I like to think so) in northern France generally and in the Battle of Metz specifically. *Jack would opine that if they made you a scout they didn't like you very much.
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Apr 26, 2020 20:03
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I really need some sketches of Jack Kirby punching tanks out his way.
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Apr 26, 2020 20:45
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Skwirl posted:With Jack Kirby. Kirby is credited, but this isn't a situation like Batman where Bob Kane heavily revised his original design to match suggestions from Bill Finger. Simon both had the idea for Cap and designed the character as he went to print. IIRC Bucky is named after one of Simon's school friends as well. Kirby's contributions were in creating the comic, not Cap himself.
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Apr 26, 2020 21:36
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Jedit posted:Kirby is credited, but this isn't a situation like Batman where Bob Kane heavily revised his original design to match suggestions from Bill Finger. Simon both had the idea for Cap and designed the character as he went to print. IIRC Bucky is named after one of Simon's school friends as well. Kirby's contributions were in creating the comic, not Cap himself. Fair enough, but I'm going to believe that the specific punching of Hitler in the face was a Kirbyism.
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Apr 26, 2020 21:54
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Donny Cates looks like Pewdiepie and Max Landis were the same person so I'm really not surprised at his career path so far.
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Apr 27, 2020 01:18
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I'm not a fan but he looks like a lot of mid-30s guys I know?
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Apr 27, 2020 01:48
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How Wonderful! posted:Can't wait to find out if Knull is a TERF or not. I still can't get over this name. It's like if someone in Norway made a comic character named Captain gently caress.
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Apr 27, 2020 11:41
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