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Don't forget Drow, and the various fantasy settings where any elf what has a bad thought is painfully transmuted into a drow.
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Apr 27, 2020 16:59
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Elephant Parade posted:You can handle the Fantasy Race Problem by Why would you do this, instead of just having orcs, goblins, gnolls, etc. be as culturally diverse as the boring default races?
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Apr 27, 2020 17:05
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Elephant Parade posted:You can handle the Fantasy Race Problem by
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Apr 27, 2020 17:05
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PST posted:There was one guy who was all 'orcs have an INT penalty, that's just the way it is and there's no official publication that says otherwise' I can understand the logic of this one from other hearing other stupid bigoted grogs. There is a whole element of chud-thinking that places themselves as the taste-makers, the ones to whom, by dint of their economic and sociopolitical clout, products should cater to. This self-image has increasingly run into the dissonance of reality, where those with economic clout are increasingly a diverse and multicultural mix of urban citizens. In response to the growing apparent fact that most of the chuds are not, in fact, the ones with the money, they've turned to a mix of frothing outrage and self-delusion. One of the biggest of these delusions is that any product not catering directly to the chuds is only doing so because of a SJW conspiracy, and not because the chuds aren't the primary customer base. This isn't unique to RPGs; you see it regularly when one of the big tentpole films has more female or non-white characters than it might have in the past. On the rage side, remember when Nike got Colin Kaepernick to be a sponsor? The biggest manbaby tantrum I've ever seen on social media came from that, from a tubby 50 year old white dude who insisted Nike was going to go broke catering to SJWs and not to him; when it was pointed out that the campaign was calculated to appeal specifically to who actually bought their shoes, dude utterly lost it. So for grog bigots like the guy here, denying an official book is, in fact, official is a coping mechanism. The idea that dnd isn't catering to regressive neckbeards and their  garbage, but is instead publishing for critters, a group that espouses LGBTQ+, women, and minority gamers, is unthinkable. It has to be a conspiracy, and not market forces, because "the invisible hand of the market" is how the chuds justified exclusion of minority voices from economic participation in the past. That it now applies to them is a very bitter pill.
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Apr 27, 2020 17:06
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Cessna managed to dredge this up from somewhere  Bad enough, but then I noticed it was put out not by some creepy basement dweller, but actual legit minis company Ral Partha. That's a yikes.
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Apr 27, 2020 17:27
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I wasn't sure if I should post that in the "lovely miniatures" thread or here. Someone posted that in a miniatures reddit I follow. Yeah, that's - holy poo poo, no.
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Apr 27, 2020 17:29
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That one is yikes all the way down A yikesberg, if you will
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Apr 27, 2020 17:31
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Really digging the fact that the sculptor made sure his name was prominently attached to his dehumanizing titty slave girls set. Building that personal brand of "the go-to guy when you need something degrading and profoundly embarassing"
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Apr 27, 2020 17:33
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Hi, I'm Dennis Mize. Be sure to ask me what I think about women!
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Apr 27, 2020 17:36
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FMguru posted:Cessna managed to dredge this up from somewhere quote:All figures depict characters 18 years or older It's a complete coincidence that 3 of them are about 4' in height and look prepubescent, we've put in a disclaimer.
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Apr 27, 2020 17:49
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Desiden posted:So for grog bigots like the guy here, denying an official book is, in fact, official is a coping mechanism. The idea that dnd isn't catering to regressive neckbeards and their I've been engaging proactively on this for years, having probably been slower than I should have been to add my voice. This is absolutely a key part of the alt-right/gater/farms etc. resistance that rapidly turns into harassment and doxxing and abuse. The idea that they're not the target market, or that people might disagree. And it's the same thing over and over again. Basic rhetorical fallacies, lowest common denominators, lack of nuance, dismissal of the points and on and on and on. It's a regularly reoccurring bingo card. There's a good reason I only discuss pretendy fun time games here and rpg.net because reddit is poo poo, twitter is for supporting minority voices and enworld is centrist both sides terrible on most things (the moderation on paizo's child abuse gives you magic powers was good, but like paizo's own forums the majority of people there were a-ok with it).
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Apr 27, 2020 17:54
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PST posted:And it's the same thing over and over again. Basic rhetorical fallacies, lowest common denominators, lack of nuance, dismissal of the points and on and on and on. It's a regularly reoccurring bingo card. There's a good reason I only discuss pretendy fun time games here and rpg.net because reddit is poo poo, twitter is for supporting minority voices and enworld is centrist both sides terrible on most things (the moderation on paizo's child abuse gives you magic powers was good, but like paizo's own forums the majority of people there were a-ok with it). I response to the bolded bit "pardon?"
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Apr 27, 2020 18:01
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I saw 'ralidium' on the box copy and went poking around for a production date out of curiosity. I have a handful of minis, but I kept an eye on the industry having to shift from using lead because minis were classed as toys. That set was reissued in 2011, in a 'limited edition' that the artist 'has sculpted an angelicly exotic new slave' for.
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Apr 27, 2020 18:04
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Paizo had a demon patron of child abuse who like all Pathfinder gods had rules for getting powers by practices their poo poo.
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Apr 27, 2020 18:04
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I think the guy's name is attached to it because it's a set that came out in the 80s or something, became a collector's item (for want of a better term) and slapping all the searchable terms on the box means that people would be able to find this old tiddy-slave-set.Bieeanshee posted:That set was reissued in 2011, in a 'limited edition' that the artist 'has sculpted an angelicly exotic new slave' for. I had seen something like it before, so looking about I've found that the guy died in 2006. Maybe he had worked on a new figure at some point and it was issued along the reissue of the set five years after his death. Ral Partha Europe's website is down at the moment, from the looks of it, so it's difficult to find info on it.
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Apr 27, 2020 18:14
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LOL when he died they issued a miniature in his honor - the dude as a samurai (with middle-age spread and dumb facial hair) and a naked slave girl at his feet:  https://www.darkswordminiatures.com/shop/index.php/10th-anniv-dennis-mize-samurai-warrior-tribute.html
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Apr 27, 2020 18:21
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LashLightning posted:I had seen something like it before, so looking about I've found that the guy died in 2006. Dennis loved Samurai movies and the whole code of the Samurai. 
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Apr 27, 2020 18:22
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Never heard of the guy before this thread, but I'd be willing to stake real money he was one of those creepy fuckers who claims to value "honor" and tries to kiss the hands of women at nerd events.
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Apr 27, 2020 18:53
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Josef bugman posted:I response to the bolded bit "pardon?" Paizo published 'child abuse gives you magic powers'. It came to light around the same time as them telling Jessica Price not to make a complaint about Mentzer's sexual harassment, their organised play having a similar complaint and the exposure of their industry partner frog god games for sexual harassment and assault at PaizoCon. I put all of them together as a WTF. On their forums they dismissed it once, and locked the thread, then when it got brought back some of their 20+ directors/managers admitted it was a mistake. Not one they'd do anything about of course. And the forum thread was riddled with people excusing and dismissing child abuse in their games. In, essentially the same way the alt-right and white supremacists (like seriously, numerous of them had kkk follows) people dismissing noble savage and barbarian orcs=racism did over the last two days. 
PST fucked around with this message at 19:08 on Apr 27, 2020 |
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Apr 27, 2020 18:57
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How very inappropriate, thank you Paizo.
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Apr 27, 2020 19:00
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PST posted:Paizo published 'child abuse gives you magic powers. It came to light around the same time as them telling Jessica Price not to make a complaint about Mentzer's sexual harassment, their organised play having a similar complaint and the exposure of their industry partner troll lord games for sexual harassment and assault at PaizoCon. I put all of them together as a WTF. On their forums they dismissed it once, and locked the thread, then when it got brought back some of their 20+ directors/managers admitted it was a mistake. Not one they'd do anything about of course. And the forum thread was riddled with people excusing and dismissing child abuse in their games. In, essentially the same way the alt-right and white supremacists (like seriously, numerous of them had kkk follows) people dismissing noble savage and barbarian orcs=racism did over the last two days. A low-effort child abuse demon that looks like it was edited out of the Book of Vile Darkness for being too xtreme even for that level of tasteless dumbshittery.
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Apr 27, 2020 19:09
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is that one of those cases where it's pretty clearly meant for antagonists but because 3.X/PF doesn't really believe in seperating what's player-facing and what's enemy-facing it has to be presented more neutrally as an option
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Apr 27, 2020 19:14
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another fukin slenderman lol
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Apr 27, 2020 19:19
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Brother Entropy posted:is that one of those cases where it's pretty clearly meant for antagonists but because 3.X/PF doesn't really believe in seperating what's player-facing and what's enemy-facing it has to be presented more neutrally as an option I mean, at least they acknowledge it's an evil act, but honestly, anything surrounding themes of abuse really does not (and should not) need to be given in-game statistics, to say nothing of bonuses and rewards. Getting a CHA bonus for assaulting a child is... uh... there are levels of yikes here I was not prepared for.
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Apr 27, 2020 19:22
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Nuns with Guns posted:The ones who aren't straight up trolls or racists-who-don't-care are people who conflate "criticizing a thing" with a personal attack on everyone who engages with the thing, and who assume if you criticize a thing, you must hate it and want everyone else to stop engaging with it. There's a lot of people who use the fact that you can treat what fiction someone likes as a way to ascertain their moral purity, and leverage their social capital to use that to create a pecking order. Like there's a lot of people who've not realized it's OK to like problematic things, and that's a problem, but we don't live in a world that makes realizing that easy, which is another problem.
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Apr 27, 2020 19:24
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Brother Entropy posted:is that one of those cases where it's pretty clearly meant for antagonists but because 3.X/PF doesn't really believe in seperating what's player-facing and what's enemy-facing it has to be presented more neutrally as an option Iirc, Paizo was capitalizing on the whole Slenderman "craze" with a Slenderman knockoff demon in some minor supplement (a magazine or side article, I think?) And designed the demon-Slenderman around being a child abuse demon because of the Slenderman lore. It's definitely not "meant" for players but they reprinted all the demons and rules in a compilation book. Newer reprints removed it eventually, but there's really no reason to put that stuff on the table at all. LatwPIAT posted:There's a lot of people who use the fact that you can treat what fiction someone likes as a way to ascertain their moral purity, and leverage their social capital to use that to create a pecking order. Like there's a lot of people who've not realized it's OK to like problematic things, and that's a problem, but we don't live in a world that makes realizing that easy, which is another problem. Right, and there's group of people who recognize on some level that something is problematic but they also construct elaborate justifications for why it's not and aggressively defend it. And there's fourth, fifth, six, etc. groups that find different was to deal with the fact that no work of media or art or product of humans is flawless and all of them have pros and cons and some are healthier or unhealthier than others. But I don't think all the people who have trouble coming to terms with others liking problematic things or the wider world that makes it hard to come to terms with people liking problematic things is relevant to this discussion, since it was about one person tweeting about how this passage about orcs from Volo's Guide to Monsters sounds non-specifically racist:  And getting flooded with hate because "It's all fiction!" and "You're the real racist for assuming this is about black people!" when they never said anything about what real world race they thought the passage was offensive toward.
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Apr 27, 2020 20:05
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Nuns with Guns posted:And getting flooded with hate because "It's all fiction!" and "You're the real racist for assuming this is about black people!" when they never said anything about what real world race they thought the passage was offensive toward. To be fair, I saw more than a couple people saying it was racist specifically because they believed the intent was Orcs= Black people. They weren't mixing words, i saw people saying that was obviously referencing black people, and I could not tell who was trolling or not at some point.
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Apr 27, 2020 20:26
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WaywardWoodwose posted:To be fair, I saw more than a couple people saying it was racist specifically because they believed the intent was Orcs= Black people. They weren't mixing words, i saw people saying that was obviously referencing black people, and I could not tell who was trolling or not at some point. It's possible that these backward savages could develop a subhuman capacity to feel empathy (for us). They will be sad and stunted, and while they are fit for menial tasks, they should never be trusted. But the perfidious gnoll? Kill them all. Like there's stepping around the potential issues surrounding Tolkien and then there's leaving a bootprint on it.
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Apr 27, 2020 20:35
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It's a mistake to read passages like that one as being specifically about the low cunning of the brutish Slav or whatever. The operative question is whether you think history is driven by class conflict or by race conflict.
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Apr 27, 2020 20:44
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PST posted:Paizo published 'child abuse gives you magic powers'. It came to light around the same time as them telling Jessica Price not to make a complaint about Mentzer's sexual harassment, their organised play having a similar complaint and the exposure of their industry partner frog god games for sexual harassment and assault at PaizoCon. I put all of them together as a WTF.
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Apr 27, 2020 20:48
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Ferrinus posted:It's a mistake to read passages like that one as being specifically about the low cunning of the brutish Slav or whatever. The operative question is whether you think history is driven by class conflict or by race conflict. I put nothing past the 5e brain trust at this point, who at best thought they were being clever by playing on real-world details to inspire players to create "especially heroic" characters out of orcs.
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Apr 27, 2020 22:01
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WaywardWoodwose posted:To be fair, I saw more than a couple people saying it was racist specifically because they believed the intent was Orcs= Black people. They weren't mixing words, i saw people saying that was obviously referencing black people, and I could not tell who was trolling or not at some point. I think my explanation came off a bit confusing here but to clarify the "they" I'm referring to in bold down here: Nuns with Guns posted:And getting flooded with hate because "It's all fiction!" and "You're the real racist for assuming this is about black people!" when they never said anything about what real world race they thought the passage was offensive toward. is referring to the OP of the tweet who posted the image from Volo's. They use they/them pronouns. Yes, all the people jumping on the topic were clearly looking at a passage labeled as "racist" and assumed the person who objected to it jumped to it being about black people, so all of those people started screaming about how it was obviously not about black people. The OP only pointed to it being racist because of the language being commonly used to dehumanize various indigenous people across the world during the numerous colonizing efforts by Western powers. Volo's Guide to Monsters is kind of awkward in general because it's written in the voice of Volo, and he goes on these tears about the various "evil" races in their entries and it all comes off like reading the fantasy equivalent to a crazed right wing blogger sometimes. Nuns with Guns fucked around with this message at 22:18 on Apr 27, 2020 |
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Apr 27, 2020 22:16
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This has come up before, the idea of "if you say orcs are supposed to be taken as black people then aren't you the racist for conflating orcs with black people" and the issue isn't "orcs = black people," it's that these sorts of excuses and this sort of language has been used throughout history to dehumanize and vilify whatever Other is on the dehumanization and genocide docket du jour, it could apply to all sorts of peoples and ethnic groups, and it's perhaps just a little hosed up that D&D and a swathe of its adherents view it as a feature and not a bug that the game says "okay but what if, what if, there was a race you could say that about and it was actually 100% true and your god said it was cool for you to kill them all and you got prizes for doing so?" I mean let's be real here, a solid 90% of the people arguing this position on twitter aren't doing so out of good faith, they're just trying to drag them into endlessly defending a position that was never taken in the first place, but the actual root criticism is not "D&D says orcs are black people and that's bad" so much as "D&D persists in clinging to weird bioessentialist stuff dressed up in language that's basically indistinguishable from that used to otherize actual real world peoples, while also trying to eat their cake and have it too regarding whether orcs are the spawn of evil or just another fantasy ethnicity but inherently evil, except for The Good Ones."
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Apr 28, 2020 02:29
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Lemon-Lime posted:Why would you do this, instead of just having orcs, goblins, gnolls, etc. be as culturally diverse as the boring default races?
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Apr 28, 2020 02:56
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Even Hobbits have cultural and ethnic groupings, because good ol' JRR never saw a thing he couldn't add a few layers of extra worldbuilding to. The one thing I find most interesting in these discussions is that the people who try and invoke his literary legacy as a shield for Orc Racism never look too closely at the letters he wrote as the UK's colonial empire came apart where he started backtracking on whether it was right to have 'always evil' orcs with his dialogue on redeemable versus irredeemable creatures. He was still a man of his time and thus racist and colonialist as balls, but if he was writing it today I suspect we'd see a different tack around race, since he exhibited some of the same turn Herge underwent as the empires came under question and began to dissolve. Not quite as dramatically, since Herge went from 'holy poo poo that's racist' to a somewhat tentative 'racism is bad', but it was there, so Elfgame Granddad's scholarly racist uncle vibe wouldn't have endured unchanged.
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Apr 28, 2020 03:22
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Nessus posted:What blows my mind is that for all people dog on JRRT, JRRT does this. There are multiple distinct cultural groups for both elves and orcs/goblins throughout LOTR and the Hobbit. Dwarves less so, but dwarves are also explicitly insular and all the dwarf characters with significant dialogue are in one broad family/culture group.
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Apr 28, 2020 03:39
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Gobbeldygook posted:D&D orcs would have been better if they had been a more brazen rip off of LOTR. The armies of Mordor were a racially inclusive industrialized coalition, not primitive hunter gatherers. It's pretty transparent and pretty well-known that Gygax was really into the Western genre and quoted a genocidaire of Native Americans when discussing Lawful Good characters, so, we know exactly where that change came from.
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Apr 28, 2020 03:59
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Gobbeldygook posted:D&D orcs would have been better if they had been a more brazen rip off of LOTR. The armies of Mordor were a racially inclusive industrialized coalition, not primitive hunter gatherers. And for the Elves you had the tra-lalalally ones, Rivendell and Mirkwood from the Hobbit, who get added to later with Lothlorien and For humans you have the guys in Bree, the Dunedain, the Lake guys, the Beornings (bears?), the Rohirrim, the wild men, the Gondorians, the Umbarians, the Haradrim and the Dunlendings. Even with dwarves, we never really have a dwarf on screen who isn't related to Thorin but Dain in the Iron Hills seems to be politically distinct from Thorin and co. And for Hobbits you have all the Shire-folk but the Tooks are at least notably distinct and there's the hobbits in Bree, too. These folks are getting their ideas from Warcraft, swear to god
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Apr 28, 2020 04:02
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e: nm
Absurd Alhazred fucked around with this message at 19:06 on Jul 22, 2020 |
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Apr 28, 2020 04:34
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Shadow of War's take on orcs in Middle-Earth is also interesting in that there's a bunch of different tribes of orcs, with varying degrees of specialties and technological know-how. It also injects a lot of personality into orcs, murderous and war-like though they may still be. The game very much plays loose with established LotR canon, but it makes orcs fun and interesting in ways a lot of games and other forms of fiction don't.
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Apr 28, 2020 05:15
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