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lol if the game just makes you kill off two decades of fan service content one boss at a time
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Apr 27, 2020 19:14
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I think it's at least pretty clear that Sephiroth doesn't want to die, Advent Children reference or no. "But I...will not end," is him admitting that. We just don't have any elaboration on how he's doing this, which is gonna be answered later. I'm not sure if he just doesn't want to be murdered by the party in the future or if he wants to...conquer death or entropy as a concept? It seems like the latter is where this is going, to me.
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Apr 27, 2020 19:14
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zedprime posted:I was on board with the trio being something like the future ideal of the party. Red and Aerith don't get one because they are already woke for whatever reason. Yeah, my first encounter with them and hitting them with the Assess Materia was very much "Holy poo poo, that's basically a mirror-match of this party; are we literally fighting our future selves?" I'm wasn't sure WHY, though; were they satisfied with how things turned out, and are unwilling to risk us/them taking another stab at it, in case things end way worse? I also guess I need to re-watch Advent Children, because I don't remember poo poo about the three except that they were basically a walking proto-Sephiroth waiting to be able to merge or whatever. What I find interesting about the ending scene is the timing - my original take was that Zack sees the whispers covering the entire hemisphere of Midgar airspace; ergo, Destiny was intending to deny him entry. Right as he should have been dead, though, they all explode and that's not necessarily on the table anymore. Confusingly, though, the same gold snow falling on Zack is falling on the party and also on the residents trying to rebuild the slums - incidents that should be separated by a week or more, at the very least. I definitely got FFVIII vibes from the end, where it opens the possibility for the two timelines to work towards each other. (I never actually beat FFVIII, and gave up on it somewhere around the point where I was forced to either finish farming and doing sidequests, or moving on to the final disc; I recall that the whole Laguna arc was very confusing but that they ended up meeting or something?)
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Apr 27, 2020 19:14
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reminder that it isnt one loving guy and that the director role as well as others are different in japan the one thing i was totally confused about and made no sense was biggs dying then all of a sudden being alive at the orphanage. did killing fate bring him back to life? does that mean zack actually lived nope and nope, ingame menu says he was injured. he didnt loving die in the first place 
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Apr 27, 2020 19:17
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I think it's important to remember that the original FFVII, upon first playthrough, MADE NO loving SENSE either, which is part of why (to me) it was such a compelling game. Depending on if you did everything or not, you might be missing important pieces of what the gently caress was going on. And even if you saw everything, there were still multiple ways to take it. I really love how that's been preserved in the remake, and I'm hoping they keep up this level of quality with the following installments.
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Apr 27, 2020 19:21
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Reclines Obesily posted:reminder that it isnt one loving guy and that the director role as well as others are different in japan Cloud just sort of heard what he thought was a death rattle and decided to leave him there. Does the game confirm that the Whispers killed Wedge at the end? If so why didn't they kill Biggs?
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Apr 27, 2020 19:22
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BaDandy posted:I think it's at least pretty clear that Sephiroth doesn't want to die, Advent Children reference or no. "But I...will not end," is him admitting that. We just don't have any elaboration on how he's doing this, which is gonna be answered later. I'm not sure if he just doesn't want to be murdered by the party in the future or if he wants to...conquer death or entropy as a concept? It seems like the latter is where this is going, to me. This goal kinda confuses me because technically Sephiroth could've gone on living munching on lifestream in the northern crater and experiencing the world above through his proxies with no problem. Stirring poo poo up the way he's doing now is literally putting his life in danger. What a weird goal.
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Apr 27, 2020 19:23
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Zarin posted:I think it's important to remember that the original FFVII, upon first playthrough, MADE NO loving SENSE either, which is part of why (to me) it was such a compelling game. Depending on if you did everything or not, you might be missing important pieces of what the gently caress was going on. And even if you saw everything, there were still multiple ways to take it. The storylines to most Final Fantasy games are generally easy to follow, it's when you get into "how do these characters get from point A to point B" where things start to not make any fuckin' sense.
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Apr 27, 2020 19:24
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So I think I missed something, is it explicitly shown that Aerith has knowledge of the future as opposed to visions and premonitions? I also can’t find lines of dialogue of the same for Sephiroth.
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Apr 27, 2020 19:26
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Zarin posted:I think it's important to remember that the original FFVII, upon first playthrough, MADE NO loving SENSE either, which is part of why (to me) it was such a compelling game. Depending on if you did everything or not, you might be missing important pieces of what the gently caress was going on. And even if you saw everything, there were still multiple ways to take it. i didnt even know the zack cutscene existed until it popped up in my youtube recommends and ive played the game many times
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Apr 27, 2020 19:30
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Zarin posted:Yeah, my first encounter with them and hitting them with the Assess Materia was very much "Holy poo poo, that's basically a mirror-match of this party; are we literally fighting our future selves?" I'm wasn't sure WHY, though; were they satisfied with how things turned out, and are unwilling to risk us/them taking another stab at it, in case things end way worse? FF8 had an evil sorceress (Ultimecia) in the future who was basically able to send a person's mind through time in order to change things in her favor - this involved a succession of sorceresses running the world and iirc they were all basically mind-puppets of the future sorceress. Laguna was squall's dad, and something something it turned out Squall had a sister who could do the time traveling mind poo poo and it was her sending squall's mind back into Laguna's body to try and break the future sorceress's control over the world early on. In the future that sister's brain pattern got turned into a machine that let the sorceress Ultimecia do it too. Basically it was some Vex poo poo where the future sorceress was wanting to ensure all timelines led to her absolute rule over the universe including some time compression poo poo where she's supposed to basically consolidate all time into a single eternal moment where she's in charge and is also everything.
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Apr 27, 2020 19:34
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Reclines Obesily posted:i still dont understand it, i guess jenova is an alien or something? vincents a vampire? i dunno no the world is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fWxrWTxJRuc
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Apr 27, 2020 19:34
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exquisite tea posted:The storylines to most Final Fantasy games are generally easy to follow, it's when you get into "how do these characters get from point A to point B" where things start to not make any fuckin' sense. I dunno, my first playthrough in like . . . 1999-ish, I was pretty confused about a lot of it. "So was Cloud . . . not actually Cloud?" That one eventually resolved pretty easily, but stuff like "Were we chasing Sephiroth, or was that actually Jenova the whole time . . . ?" and "Was Sephiroth entombed in the Northern Crater, or was he pulling the strings?" I'm still not 100% clear about. I feel like the whole Jenova/Sephiroth relationship is so symbiotic that the answer might even be "both". Either that or I'm just real dumb. Can't rule that one out. Pollyanna posted:So I think I missed something, is it explicitly shown that Aerith has knowledge of the future as opposed to visions and premonitions? Eh, in Chapter 2 Sephiroth was like "Hey, you wanna get real strong, right? You've always gotten stronger when you were suffering, so . . . I'm just here to help, really, you see." (paraphrased). I feel like that could be a nod towards what Cloud has already been through up to that point, but also an allusion of what is to come (based on the 1997 timeline)
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Apr 27, 2020 19:34
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Flopsy posted:This goal kinda confuses me because technically Sephiroth could've gone on living munching on lifestream in the northern crater and experiencing the world above through his proxies with no problem. Stirring poo poo up the way he's doing now is literally putting his life in danger. What a weird goal. What if the planet's at risk and he can't hang out in the northern crater anymore? I think that's what's gonna be answered next. I think he also kind of...likes fighting Cloud? He seems like he's having a lot of fun at the end there. ....Good for him.
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Apr 27, 2020 19:35
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BaDandy posted:What if the planet's at risk and he can't hang out in the northern crater anymore? I think that's what's gonna be answered next. I'll flat out say it; I'm sure they didn't intend for it to come across this way but Sephiroth really looks like a desperate ex. trying convince his old bf they really belong together. FAUXTON posted:FF8 had an evil sorceress (Ultimecia) in the future who was basically able to send a person's mind through time in order to change things in her favor - this involved a succession of sorceresses running the world and iirc they were all basically mind-puppets of the future sorceress. Laguna was squall's dad, and something something it turned out Squall had a sister who could do the time traveling mind poo poo and it was her sending squall's mind back into Laguna's body to try and break the future sorceress's control over the world early on. In the future that sister's brain pattern got turned into a machine that let the sorceress Ultimecia do it too. Oh wow! I hate it! 
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Apr 27, 2020 19:42
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Zarin posted:\What I find interesting about the ending scene is the timing - my original take was that Zack sees the whispers covering the entire hemisphere of Midgar airspace; ergo, Destiny was intending to deny him entry. Right as he should have been dead, though, they all explode and that's not necessarily on the table anymore. Confusingly, though, the same gold snow falling on Zack is falling on the party and also on the residents trying to rebuild the slums - incidents that should be separated by a week or more, at the very least. It's not clear whether Zack can see them or not, though it's definitely possible he can. They made sure we knew that Rufus could see the Whispers and Tseng could not, so whether one can see them or not seems to be important. My guess is that the Whispers exist (or existed) outside of linear time, so killing them in the present also kills them in the past, hence potentially retconning the existing timeline. Either that, or Zack's in a different, parallel timeline that splintered off when that happened. Probably won't have any answers until part 2 at the earliest, though. Pollyanna posted:So I think I missed something, is it explicitly shown that Aerith has knowledge of the future as opposed to visions and premonitions? Nobody explicitly says they can see the future, but both Sephiroth and Aerith act like they can, or at least like they've received much clearer visions of it than what Cloud sees. Sephiroth, especially, seems to be acting with foreknowledge. In Aerith's case, it could be that the Whispers were giving her knowledge from her future self, which could be why she would "lose a part of herself" each time they touched her--they were replacing present Aerith's self with future Aerith's. That's just speculation there, though. One piece of evidence that Sephiroth has post-Advent Children knowledge (even if he isn't literally time traveling from after Advent Children) is that a snippet of a theme from Advent Children, "The Promised Land," plays immediately after his first appearance in FF7R, and nowhere else in the entire game.
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Apr 27, 2020 19:44
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I don't know if it's stated explicitly but Aerith really seems like she knows that her destiny was dying
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Apr 27, 2020 19:46
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Flopsy posted:I'll flat out say it; I'm sure they didn't intend for it to come across this way but Sephiroth really looks like a desperate ex. trying convince his old bf they really belong together. Well, I mean, technically - if that is Jenova, then Cloud is actively keeping some piece of it back from reuniting with the whole.  If it's Sephiroth, then either he's thirstier than Jessie, or he's the sorest loser on the planet.
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Apr 27, 2020 19:47
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Sephiroth was always a manipulator in the original, and this time I think they're really leaning into how he plays on Cloud's insecurities while trying to pull on Cloud's lingering obsession with Sephiroth. Cloud has defined himself in relation to Sephiroth since he was a kid and has a ton of trauma all wrapped up in that definition (not to mention his Zack delusion), and Sephiroth seems to know just how to play with that. What I think is interesting is that Sephiroth seems to have some sort of twisted affection for Cloud, too. Is that genuine, or is he using that as a tool in his manipulation of Cloud? Why not both?
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Apr 27, 2020 19:50
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Zarin posted:Well, I mean, technically - if that is Jenova, then Cloud is actively keeping some piece of it back from reuniting with the whole. Harrow posted:Sephiroth was always a manipulator in the original, and this time I think they're really leaning into how he plays on Cloud's insecurities while trying to pull on Cloud's lingering obsession with Sephiroth. Cloud has defined himself in relation to Sephiroth since he was a kid and has a ton of trauma all wrapped up in that definition (not to mention his Zack delusion), and Sephiroth seems to know just how to play with that. ^^^^^^ Seems like it.
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Apr 27, 2020 19:51
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Necrothatcher posted:I honestly thought people were saying Yazoo as a dumb joke name. Upstairs at Eric’s is a masterpiece. AC is not.
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Apr 27, 2020 19:53
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Also the evil witch from the future was probably Rinoa in early drafts of the game and they left just enough hints of that in the finished product to make it extra confusing
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Apr 27, 2020 19:54
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Pollyanna posted:So I think I missed something, is it explicitly shown that Aerith has knowledge of the future as opposed to visions and premonitions? For me, it's that 1. Her speech when they're all standing in front of the endboss portal makes it seem like she knows a whole lot more about the situation. 2. The closing moments of the game are told from her perspective, and her body language makes it seem like she can almost feel Zack's presence as they phase through each other.
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Apr 27, 2020 19:54
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FF8 may be one of my less-liked FFs but I do kind of love Time Kompression as a really bonkers idea and evil plan
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Apr 27, 2020 19:55
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Harrow posted:It's not clear whether Zack can see them or not, though it's definitely possible he can. They made sure we knew that Rufus could see the Whispers and Tseng could not, so whether one can see them or not seems to be important. Oh, excellent post! I hadn't considered that - the dimension we stepped into in Chapter 18 was the vertex of all timelines, so the actions there would radiate out to any place or time where the whispers had previously gotten involved. Doesn't explain Wedge, though, I guess. Harrow posted:Nobody explicitly says they can see the future, but both Sephiroth and Aerith act like they can, or at least like they've received much clearer visions of it than what Cloud sees. Sephiroth, especially, seems to be acting with foreknowledge. In Aerith's case, it could be that the Whispers were giving her knowledge from her future self, which could be why she would "lose a part of herself" each time they touched her--they were replacing present Aerith's self with future Aerith's. That's just speculation there, though. Her relationship to the whispers did change slightly when she met Cloud, I think - I wonder if she'd just lived with them her whole life, and when Cloud fought them off she was like "Oh, I guess I don't have to do what they want after all, maybe?" but then she almost gets cold feet at the dimensional portal because she goes from a life of certainty to one that's just as unknown as everyone else's.
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Apr 27, 2020 19:55
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cheetah7071 posted:Also the evil witch from the future was probably Rinoa in early drafts of the game and they left just enough hints of that in the finished product to make it extra confusing R totally = U
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Apr 27, 2020 19:56
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Why are the Whispers actually visible though? They seem to specifically present themselves to the party/villains/Avalanche and no one else.
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Apr 27, 2020 19:58
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CharlieFoxtrot posted:R totally = U I mean it's a better story if R=U and Squall is dead that's for sure
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Apr 27, 2020 19:59
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cheetah7071 posted:Also the evil witch from the future was probably Rinoa in early drafts of the game and they left just enough hints of that in the finished product to make it extra confusing Even their faces have a similar structure tbh.
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Apr 27, 2020 20:00
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cheetah7071 posted:Also the evil witch from the future was probably Rinoa in early drafts of the game and they left just enough hints of that in the finished product to make it extra confusing https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3484538&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=2115#post476087312 e: repost for people without archives quote:Kitase, whose résumé is far too long to list in one paragraph but includes director credits on Final Fantasy VI, Chrono Trigger, and Final Fantasy VII, was in Seattle last week for PAX West to talk about his most recent game, Mobius Final Fantasy. Of course, as I told him, I couldn’t resist the urge to ask about his older work, too.
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Apr 27, 2020 20:00
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cheetah7071 posted:I mean it's a better story if R=U and Squall is dead that's for sure You'd need to go with a multiverse theory because those are mutually exclusive to me
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Apr 27, 2020 20:02
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Zarin posted:Her relationship to the whispers did change slightly when she met Cloud, I think - I wonder if she'd just lived with them her whole life, and when Cloud fought them off she was like "Oh, I guess I don't have to do what they want after all, maybe?" but then she almost gets cold feet at the dimensional portal because she goes from a life of certainty to one that's just as unknown as everyone else's. I sorta wonder if her meeting with Cloud was the first time she'd encountered them--she's panicked by them and wonders fearfully what they are. I wasn't sure why they were harassing her there in the first place until someone pointed out to me what Sephiroth had done just beforehand: he leads Cloud off of the path he's supposed to follow, taking him down a long, twisting side path through alleys. He's trying to prevent Cloud from meeting Aerith. The Whispers harass Aerith to keep her in place so that she's there to meet Cloud when he arrives late. As for Aerith's cold feet: definitely. I think she remains uncertain that they did the right thing at the end, too. Before stepping through the portal, Aerith compares the freedom they'd get by killing the Whispers to "a great, never-ending sky," which she describes as "boundless" and "terrifying." That metaphor makes sense for her--earlier in the game, Aerith talks about how the plate being above her head is comforting for her, because she's spent almost her entire life in the slums. An open sky is unusual and uncomfortable for her. At the end, after the group kills the Whispers and leaves Midgar, they're standing under an open sky, both literally and figuratively, as they've won their freedom from the fate the Whispers wanted. Aerith's last line, and the last line in the game, is, "I miss it. The steel sky." The new freedom frightens her, just like the literal open sky does, and part of her seems to wish they'd just accepted their fate.
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Apr 27, 2020 20:03
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CharlieFoxtrot posted:You'd need to go with a multiverse theory because those are mutually exclusive to me I meant Squall dies at the very end, not at the end of disc 1, which is something I don't like
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Apr 27, 2020 20:03
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Sapozhnik posted:“I won’t completely come out and say that it is the same world,” said Kitase. “However, Shinra in FFX-2 was created by [Kazushige] Nojima, the scenario writer, and when he thought him up, he thought it might be good if people would imagine that after a few years after the story of Final Fantasy X-2, that person Shinra will grow up and start the Shinra company. So that is something that he did hint in there. That being said, I’m not gonna say that it’s the same.” on this note - in Remake, did anyone else think that Shinra's depiction of the Ancient civilization had vaguely Spiran architecture and clothing
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Apr 27, 2020 20:04
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Flopsy posted:I'll flat out say it; I'm sure they didn't intend for it to come across this way but Sephiroth really looks like a desperate ex. trying convince his old bf they really belong together. They are absolutely doing this on purpose. They know. They've read the fanfics. He's acting way too desperate for it to not be on purpose. Pollyanna posted:So I think I missed something, is it explicitly shown that Aerith has knowledge of the future as opposed to visions and premonitions? Aerith says things that imply that she's kind of afraid of leaving Midgar and tries to spend as much time with Cloud as possible. There's this cute bit where if you leave the church without talking to her first, she talks to herself that's actually trying to ask Cloud to stay by going like, "BOY....I SURE DON'T HAVE MUCH TO DO EXCEPT TAKE CARE OF THESE FLOWERS. WOW. JUST SO MUCH TIME. IF ONLY I COULD HAVE SOME HELP. WITH THESE FLOWERS. THAT WOULD BE REALLY COOL...." Then Aerith has the idea of evacuating people from the Sector 7 slums, which Tifa thinks is suspicious because they're supposed to stop the plate from falling. Why is Aerith acting like it'll fail? Sephiroth, meanwhile, is way more pushy about it. Saying that when Cloud killed him was "The crowning moment of our time together" (wow dude), he's clearly not talking about when he was yeeted into the lifestream in Nibelheim. He's talking about the end of the original game. He lures Cloud into an alley so he misses bumping into Aerith, but the ghosts force her to stay there until he shows up. Neither of them can really come out and say, "By the way, we totally know what's gonna happen" because they'd come across as insane, so do other things to convey that in their own styles.
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Apr 27, 2020 20:04
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Sapozhnik posted:https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3484538&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=2115#post476087312 lmao I love that Kitase is like "oh I never thought about Squall dying at the end of disc 1 but if I remake the game I might go with that" I just love how he hears that dumb dying dream theory and goes "actually that slaps" BaDandy posted:Aerith says things that imply that she's kind of afraid of leaving Midgar and tries to spend as much time with Cloud as possible. There's this cute bit where if you leave the church without talking to her first, she talks to herself that's actually trying to ask Cloud to stay by going like, "BOY....I SURE DON'T HAVE MUCH TO DO EXCEPT TAKE CARE OF THESE FLOWERS. WOW. JUST SO MUCH TIME. IF ONLY I COULD HAVE SOME HELP. WITH THESE FLOWERS. THAT WOULD BE REALLY COOL...." Then Aerith has the idea of evacuating people from the Sector 7 slums, which Tifa thinks is suspicious because they're supposed to stop the plate from falling. Why is Aerith acting like it'll fail? Aerith also knows Cloud is a mercenary when they meet in the church--Cloud reacts like "how does she know that?" and Aerith scrambles to cover it up by saying it was a lucky guess based on his sword. She also knows Marlene's name already. When Tifa asks her to go to Seventh Heaven to find a girl, Aerith goes, "Marlene, right?" and Tifa's briefly confused because she hadn't told Aerith about Marlene yet. Harrow fucked around with this message at 20:09 on Apr 27, 2020 |
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Apr 27, 2020 20:06
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Sapozhnik posted:https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3484538&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=2115#post476087312 aeris being the japanese version of sesame street's mr hooper is a twist I didn't see coming For reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9NjFbz6vGU8
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Apr 27, 2020 20:10
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stev posted:Cloud just sort of heard what he thought was a death rattle and decided to leave him there. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qocbtZGkazg
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Apr 27, 2020 20:11
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FAUXTON posted:aeris being the japanese version of sesame street's mr hooper is a twist I didn't see coming One of the reasons I think Aerith is still definitely going to die in the remake is that Kitase (who is the remake's producer) and Nomura have, over the years, repeatedly spoken in interviews about how important her death is and how important it is that you can't bring her back. Nomura has also talked about how the apparent senselessness of her death--how it isn't some sappy Hollywood-like heroic sacrifice--is something that he thought was really important to FF7. I can't imagine these same people would go back on that now. They'll fake us out, sure, or maybe build up a narrative that makes it seem like she can be saved this time (after all, it looks like we saved Zack, Biggs, and maybe even Jessie if you think her glove being there at the end is a sign), but she's still going to die, and probably not in an intentional self-sacrifice.
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Apr 27, 2020 20:14
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Harrow posted:One of the reasons I think Aerith is still definitely going to die in the remake is that Kitase (who is the remake's producer) and Nomura have, over the years, repeatedly spoken in interviews about how important her death is and how important it is that you can't bring her back. Nomura has also talked about how the apparent senselessness of her death--how it isn't some sappy Hollywood-like heroic sacrifice--is something that he thought was really important to FF7. I can't imagine these same people would go back on that now. My current theory is that Rufus saw a vision of the future when the Whispers were defeated(he was explicitly shown as one of the few people who could see them) and decided "you know what? This is a pretty acceptable future" and works to keep things going on the "right" path in the absents of the Whispers(except without the part where he gets blown up) up to and including murdering Aerith when he realizes Sephiroth isn't going to do it. Even better if this completely catches Sephiroth off guard and you get a moment of him breaking character and freaking out slightly.
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Apr 27, 2020 20:20
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