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I am all for expanding Rufus's role. Remake Rufus owns.
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Apr 27, 2020 20:22
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Rhonne posted:My current theory is that Rufus saw a vision of the future when the Whispers were defeated(he was explicitly shown as one of the few people who could see them) and decided "you know what? This is a pretty acceptable future" and works to keep things going on the "right" path in the absents of the Whispers(except without the part where he gets blown up) up to and including murdering Aerith when he realizes Sephiroth isn't going to do it. you mean the one where his company and its hegemony over the world is destroyed and he spends the rest of his days as an anonymous philanthropist after nearly getting blown the gently caress up rufus as he is now would probably prefer a future where he's still the unquestioned capitalist dictator of the majority of civilization, especially because it's really strongly implied that the AVALANCHE cell that nearly killed president shinra did so at his bidding
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Apr 27, 2020 20:22
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Harrow posted:Sephiroth was always a manipulator in the original, and this time I think they're really leaning into how he plays on Cloud's insecurities while trying to pull on Cloud's lingering obsession with Sephiroth. Cloud has defined himself in relation to Sephiroth since he was a kid and has a ton of trauma all wrapped up in that definition (not to mention his Zack delusion), and Sephiroth seems to know just how to play with that. It kind of reminds me of that bit in Stardust Crusaders where Hol Horse actually tries to kill DIO, fails, and DIO is like, "Wow, you actually tried to kill me. You're....pretty cool." Sephiroth grew up pretty isolated too and maybe someone able to get to his level is interesting, and he falls back on his mentor role to help Cloud but he's so far gone, he's just like, "Hey.......remember when I killed your mom? Pretty hosed up of me, right?"
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Apr 27, 2020 20:22
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FAUXTON posted:FF8 had an evil sorceress (Ultimecia) in the future who was basically able to send a person's mind through time in order to change things in her favor - this involved a succession of sorceresses running the world and iirc they were all basically mind-puppets of the future sorceress. Laguna was squall's dad, and something something it turned out Squall had a sister who could do the time traveling mind poo poo and it was her sending squall's mind back into Laguna's body to try and break the future sorceress's control over the world early on. In the future that sister's brain pattern got turned into a machine that let the sorceress Ultimecia do it too. Pre-FF8 story - Laguna was a soldier during the Sorceress War with a crush on this lounge singer at a bar in Galbadia's capital city. He and his allies, Kiros and Ward, investigated a secret facility run by the enemy nation of Esthar (run by Sorceress Adel, the instigator of the Sorceress War) where they were seriously wounded. Laguna made his way to a small town where he was nursed back to health from a local woman Raine. Raina got pregnant and hid that from Laguna in worries it would stop him from achieving his dreams of traveling the world and becoming a journalist. She has a son, Squall, but dies during childbirth. Squall gets sent to an orphanage. A girl in the village Ellone, also lived with Raine after her parents were killed by soldiers. She too gets sent to the orphanage and becomes a sister figure to Squall. Ellone also has the secret power that she can send a person's consciousness back in time for short periods, though it is very draining to her. The orphanage is run by a woman they refer to as Matron (real name Edea) and her husband Cid. Edea was secretly a sorceress, having received her powers from a dying sorceress when she was a child. (When sorceresses die or become near death, they pass their powers along to the closest living woman). Edea and Cid created the Gardens to train elite child soldiers called SeeD. This idea came from when she was younger when a stranger appeared to her that told her only a SeeD from Garden can defeat the sorceress. Edea, being a sorceress herself now, becomes estranged from Cid. Meanwhile, Laguna and his pals eventually stumble into Esthar and defeat the tyrant Sorceress Adel by stupidity and trickery. They're unable to kill her due to how powerful she is, so she is essentially encased in carbonite and stored at a space station orbiting planet. Main game story - Edea rises to power as a sorceress in Galbadia, executing the president on live television and starting a new dictatorship. Squall, now a SeeD from Balamb Garden, leads the charge. Eventually, Edea is defeated, but not killed. While in critical health, she passes her sorceress powers to Rinoa, party-member/love interest to Squall and leader of a resistance group. Rinoa goes catatonic. In seeking a cure for her, Squall takes her to Esthar, the country from the sorceress war that, since the war, has been completely vanished from maps. Turns out the city is basically Wakanda from Black Panther (like actually very very very similar, massively technologically advanced compared to the rest of the world and hidden behind hologram camouflage. They meet Laguna, who is now President for Life of Esthar since he technically saved them from Adel. During all of this, Squall eventually reunites with Ellone. Rinoa starts getting possessed. They learn that she's being possessed by a sorceress of the future, Ultimecia, who wants to compress past, present, and future into one reality that she controls. In the future, Ultimecia had created a machine that mimics Ellone's power but she needs her consciousness to be active in three time periods to achieve Time Compression. Possessed Rinoa travels to space to free Adel (as Ultimecia wants to possess Adel and restart a reign of terror in effort to further her goals). Instead, the party kills Adel. Adel passes her powers to Rinoa. As Ultimecia possess Rinoa again, Ellone sends Rinoa/Ultimecia's consciousness to the past, completing Time Compression and allowing the party to enter her castle and kill her. As she dies, Ultimecia travels to the past and passes on her sorceress powers to...... a young Edea. Squall also appears to young Edea and tells her about Garden and how only SeeD can defeat the sorceress. Everyone returns to their normal time and lives happily ever after. cheetah7071 posted:Also the evil witch from the future was probably Rinoa in early drafts of the game and they left just enough hints of that in the finished product to make it extra confusing I still like the idea of Rinoa as being from an alternate future where Squall died and she spiraled out of control. Plus, one of her boss phases is Griever, which is Squall's symbol. Mordiceius fucked around with this message at 20:25 on Apr 27, 2020 |
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Apr 27, 2020 20:23
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Rhonne posted:My current theory is that Rufus saw a vision of the future when the Whispers were defeated(he was explicitly shown as one of the few people who could see them) and decided "you know what? This is a pretty acceptable future" and works to keep things going on the "right" path in the absents of the Whispers(except without the part where he gets blown up) up to and including murdering Aerith when he realizes Sephiroth isn't going to do it. I really don't like it when a character's motivation for something is "because a prophecy said so" so I hope it's not this
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Apr 27, 2020 20:23
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Harrow posted:One of the reasons I think Aerith is still definitely going to die in the remake is that Kitase (who is the remake's producer) and Nomura have, over the years, repeatedly spoken in interviews about how important her death is and how important it is that you can't bring her back. Nomura has also talked about how the apparent senselessness of her death--how it isn't some sappy Hollywood-like heroic sacrifice--is something that he thought was really important to FF7. I can't imagine these same people would go back on that now. I don't really understand the random, senseless aspect their describing to her death. She was conducting a counterplay to the eerie pyscho's plans separate from the party, and he killed her to prevent it. It was a very foreseeable risk. They make it sound she got hit by a drunk driver. Caidin fucked around with this message at 20:27 on Apr 27, 2020 |
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Apr 27, 2020 20:25
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Zarin posted:What I find interesting about the ending scene is the timing - my original take was that Zack sees the whispers covering the entire hemisphere of Midgar airspace; ergo, Destiny was intending to deny him entry. Right as he should have been dead, though, they all explode and that's not necessarily on the table anymore. Confusingly, though, the same gold snow falling on Zack is falling on the party and also on the residents trying to rebuild the slums - incidents that should be separated by a week or more, at the very least. My head cannon relies on on three assumptions: 1 - The whispers are the Lifestream's defense system (and Sephiroth/Jenova is the disease) 2 - The whispers and Sephiroth exist outside of time 3 - Sephiroth's end game is be anchored back into normal time so he can eventually consume the universe. Which is why his appearances have been attempts to delay or derail Cloud so events can't or won't happen by slightly changing outcomes. When the whispers (especially what I assume is the guiding intelligence: Whisper Harbinger) are destroyed in whatever pocket dimension Sephiroth calved off from the normal one, they are destroyed in every location and every time. Also, the gold sparkles are more or less the remnants of whatever raw mako from the Lifestream that was used to create the whispers. They fall down and will hopefully be reabsorbed by the planet. When Sephiroth slices open the portal in space and time, I think the whispers are trying a last ditch effort to restore original FF7 events by creating an alternate timeline in which events play as they should (i.e Zack dies in a last stand). Even if our heroes wander off course, there's still another chance for things to go right. Unfortunately they get destroyed by Cloud and Zack lives before they can make sure he fulfills his destiny of dying. I also believe this was Sephiroth's plan all along given the little smile he gave right as Cloud lay down the hammer.
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Apr 27, 2020 20:25
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Caidin posted:I don't really understand the random, senseless aspect their describing to her death. She was conducting a counterplay to the eerie pyscho's plans separate from the party, and he killed her to prevent it. It was a very foreseeable risk. Well, it's "senseless" in that it isn't some grand, sappy heroic sacrifice, I think. "Senseless" probably isn't the right word. It's more that, well, she's killed by the villain like so many others are killed by him, and not because she sacrificed herself to save someone or anything like that. Basically I think the important things are that she didn't get a dramatic heroic sacrifice scene with a final speech and a bunch of stuff like that, there's nothing you can do to bring her back, and she's never really "replaced" in the party (right down to her spots on in-game UI elements being kept empty for the rest of the game rather than everyone shifting over to fill that empty UI space). Sephiroth wants to kill her and he just, well, kills her. Done. The end. She's gone and you're just left with that loss. Proteus Jones posted:When Sephiroth slices open the portal in space and time, I think the whispers are trying a last ditch effort to restore original FF7 events by creating an alternate timeline in which events play as they should (i.e Zack dies in a last stand). Even if our heroes wander off course, there's still another chance for things to go right. Unfortunately they get destroyed by Cloud and Zack lives before they can make sure he fulfills his destiny of dying. I also believe this was Sephiroth's plan all along given the little smile he gave right as Cloud lay down the hammer. Oh yeah, the heroes killing the Whispers is exactly what Sephiroth wanted. At this point everything is going exactly how he wants. An important distinction is that this is also what Aerith wants. She's not being hoodwinked into killing the Whispers by Sephiroth--she wants them gone, too, even if she feels more conflicted about it. From Sephiroth's perspective, the Whispers being gone means he might win this time. From Aerith's perspective, she's trading a future where the planet is saved but with a lot of loss (including her own life) for the chance--even if it's only a chance--at a better future. It's a huge risk but she's willing to take it in that moment. Harrow fucked around with this message at 20:36 on Apr 27, 2020 |
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Apr 27, 2020 20:31
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Harrow posted:Well, it's "senseless" in that it isn't some grand, sappy heroic sacrifice, I think. "Senseless" probably isn't the right word. It's more that, well, she's killed by the villain like so many others are killed by him, and not because she sacrificed herself to save someone or anything like that. Yeah. It's not like Vegeta during the Buu Saga. It's not some big powerful character sacrifice. It's not like Shadow at the end of FFVI where he goes out willingly and at peace with his journey. This is her just being there minding her own business and then yoink she's dead and that's it.
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Apr 27, 2020 20:33
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Harrow posted:Well, it's "senseless" in that it isn't some grand, sappy heroic sacrifice, I think. "Senseless" probably isn't the right word. It's more that, well, she's killed by the villain like so many others are killed by him, and not because she sacrificed herself to save someone or anything like that. She didn't necessarily realize she was doing it, but it's certainly a sound interpretation (the standard one?) of the ending that her death is what enabled her to commune with the lifestream and prevent meteor from destroying everything. "Apparent" is doing a lot of heavy lifting in "apparent senselessness". I think there's plenty of room to debate her intentions and awareness, in the original game. It isn't totally clear what Aerith knows, has been made aware of by the lifestream, etc. A big theme in the original FF7, in fact, is that everybody - the party members, Shinra, Sephiroth - seems to be operating under incomplete/different information, and that it isn't clear a lot of the time who's privy to what. Everybody's scheming and keeping secrets, there are moles and traitors and people with secrets and conflicting allegiances on all sides. Baku fucked around with this message at 20:46 on Apr 27, 2020 |
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Apr 27, 2020 20:43
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Mordiceius posted:Someone in one of my Discord channels broke down the Advent Children theory like this - Yep. It's this. Going back and replaying it, the 3 whispers at the end represent the Remnants. They even use the same attacks and animations as the Remnants in AC do. So it looks like you're literally defeating the timeline where AC happens. I'm OK with that.
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Apr 27, 2020 20:56
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Elephant Ambush posted:Yep. It's this. Going back and replaying it, the 3 whispers at the end represent the Remnants. They even use the same attacks and animations as the Remnants in AC do. Can the next game end with us preventing the Dirge of Cerberus timeline?
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Apr 27, 2020 21:11
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Elephant Ambush posted:Yep. It's this. Going back and replaying it, the 3 whispers at the end represent the Remnants. They even use the same attacks and animations as the Remnants in AC do. I’m hopeful this time the “humanity ends” scenario becomes canon.
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Apr 27, 2020 21:14
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Rhonne posted:Can the next game end with us preventing the Dirge of Cerberus timeline? *Nods frantically* Yes PLEASE. There's so much nope packed into one game I can't even begin to tell you. Incest vibes? gently caress yes. Underage relationship teasing? Why not? Lucrecia's insufferable presence? GO ALL IN.
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Apr 27, 2020 21:16
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Rhonne posted:Can the next game end with us preventing the Dirge of Cerberus timeline? monkey's paw curls and now vincent takes the stab meant for aerith
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Apr 27, 2020 21:21
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All I want to know is if we are going to get flashback cutscenes with the man, the myth, the legend: Vincent's father, GRIMOIRE Valentine. Also - there have been a lot of arguments in this thread, and many people have felt like the arguments end up just as a bunch of people talking past each other and poorly communicating. I think it is a result of miscommunication in the level of trust/mistrust or optimism/pessimism. I feel like this game can be broken down into two portions: - the first 95%, which, while there are some differences, stays fairly faithful to original FF7. - the final 5%, which, tonally is objectively different from the the other 95% From this, we get 3 types of people. - Those that assume the rest of the remake series will keep tone and spirit of the first 95% of FF7R - Those that fear the rest of the remake series will keep the tone and spirit of the final 5% of FF7R - Those that don't loving care. Hence every argument is the first two groups arguing that the next game will clearly follow what they assume/fear it will be. Then the third group just gets annoyed that neither group is going to convince the other. It doesn't help that the part that the second group dislikes is at the very end. I feel like majority of the arguments that have happened wouldn't happen if the final 5% happened in the middle of the game instead of the end. Had the middle of the game gone tonally bonkers for an hour like the ending but then instead just went back to the tone of the rest of the game, I don't think the second group would be near as fervent. This is further exasperated by the fact that we probably aren't going to be hearing much about FF7R Part 2 for another year or so. Once we see our first trailer of that, so many of the arguments can be put to rest.
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Apr 27, 2020 21:23
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FAUXTON posted:monkey's paw curls and now vincent takes the stab meant for aerith 
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Apr 27, 2020 21:25
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HD DAD posted:I’m hopeful this time the “humanity ends” scenario becomes canon. It already is? Kitase even said that in the ending of the original FF7 humanity is extinct. I think that's what Nanaki was referring to when he said that the vision they see is a glimpse of a possible future if the party fails.
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Apr 27, 2020 21:25
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Honestly who cares what Kitase has to say decades after the game came out, anything worth saying was already in the game and that's a deliberately ambiguous depiction of Shinra-style industrial capitalism ceasing to be, not a global human extinction event.
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Apr 27, 2020 21:31
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multijoe posted:Honestly who cares what Kitase has to say decades after the game came out, anything worth saying was already in the game and that's a deliberately ambiguous depiction of Shinra-style industrial capitalism ceasing to be, not a global human extinction event. Yeah who cares what the guy who's literally in charge of the canon says.
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Apr 27, 2020 21:32
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Elephant Ambush posted:Yeah who cares what the guy who's literally in charge of the canon says. If it ain't in the text, it doesn't count  Also known as the J. K. Rowling Postulate (this is a massive oversimplification of Death of the Author but also I just wanted to make a Rowling joke)
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Apr 27, 2020 21:34
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Canon isn't real, it can't hurt you
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Apr 27, 2020 21:36
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Veib posted:Canon isn't real, it can't hurt you Cannons, however, are real and can hurt you.
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Apr 27, 2020 21:39
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Veib posted:Canon isn't real, it can't hurt you The time ghosts beg to differ.
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Apr 27, 2020 21:39
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Harrow posted:If it ain't in the text, it doesn't count I thought that was gently caress trans people.
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Apr 27, 2020 21:39
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Veib posted:Canon isn't real, it can't hurt you -Sephiroth, probably
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Apr 27, 2020 21:40
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Mordiceius posted:Cannons, however, are real and can hurt you. pffff naaaaah *boldly emerges from the sea to stomp towards Midgar*
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Apr 27, 2020 21:40
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Mordiceius posted:Cannons, however, are real and can hurt you. Just ask Sapphire Weapon Edit: That scene was so dumb too. Like even my stupid college aged self in '97 was like was like "WHY ARE YOU NOT ATTACKING THE CANNON FROM AN ANGLE WHERE IT CANNOT SHOOT YOU DIRECTLY IN TH FACE WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU AAAAAAAAAAA" Elephant Ambush fucked around with this message at 21:45 on Apr 27, 2020 |
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Apr 27, 2020 21:42
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When I first saw the final cutscene of FF7 I immediately thought that humanity had been wiped out. It isnt some fringe interpretation. For me at least it was the most natural one.
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Apr 27, 2020 21:43
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Elephant Ambush posted:Yeah who cares what the guy who's literally in charge of the canon says. Canon is a fake idea, it is very literally not real
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Apr 27, 2020 21:47
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If we're asking, canonically, did humanity die on the day of Meteorfall in the original Final Fantasy VII? It's ambiguous in the original text. Supplementary texts like Advent Children and Dirge of Cerberus state that no, humanity was saved by the Lifestream that day. If we're asking, canonically, are humans still around during the "500 years later" post-credits scene with Red XIII? According to Kitase, no, they're not. Whether he believes they all died in the ending of Final Fantasy VII (and therefore Advent Children and Dirge of Cerberus aren't "canon" in his mind) or that it happened sometime after Dirge of Cerberus is unclear. Either way, it's not something ever stated in any of the texts so whether it "counts" is really up to you as you play the games and what you think happened. Kitase was one of the lead writers of the original Final Fantasy VII along with Nojima, and Nomura has a "scenario concept" credit from that game, too. Neither Nojima nor Nomura have stated whether they think humanity is extinct by that point--only Kitase has, and he wasn't the only person in charge of the story, so it's debatable whether his statement is ~*~Official Canon Forever~*~ (if such a thing exists at all) or whether it's just, like, his opinion, man, and Nojima and Nomura may have their own ideas. Anyway what I'm saying is Kitase can say whatever he wants is canon but his interpretation is just as valid as anyone else's, he ain't the boss of your reading  Flopsy posted:I thought that was gently caress trans people. No, that's the Law of J.K. Rowling Is an rear end in a top hat. That's beyond postulate, she's proven it pretty conclusively.
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Apr 27, 2020 21:47
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Elephant Ambush posted:Just ask Sapphire Weapon Maybe Sapphire Weapon knew that its own weak point was its mouth just before it was about to fire, so it tried to apply the same logic toward attacking the cannon
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Apr 27, 2020 21:54
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multijoe posted:Canon is a fake idea, it is very literally not real LOL. Stories don't exist. Yep. K. Everyone's headcanon is identical.
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Apr 27, 2020 22:02
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So guys this is what I think happened at the end of the game. *posts My Immortal* Tell me I'm wrong. Canon doesn't exist. 
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Apr 27, 2020 22:04
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Lol yeah that's exactly what people mean you got it you cracked the code
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Apr 27, 2020 22:07
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What is My Immortal besides an Evanescence song
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Apr 27, 2020 22:08
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Elephant Ambush posted:LOL. Stories don't exist. Yep. K. Everyone's headcanon is identical. Stories do exist, but they are stories. There is no arbiter saying which stories 'really' happened and which didn't, or what a story actually factually meant outside of the text itself. Elephant Ambush posted:So guys this is what I think happened at the end of the game. This is just assinine though, you don't believe this because it's an obviously stupid premise. A more relevant example would be 'should we believe humanity went extinct without any evidence in the game just because one of the scenario writers said so, many years later?', to which I say, no.
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Apr 27, 2020 22:08
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The opinions of the author should not be believed beyond the text of what they have written because 1) creative people are frequently full of poo poo, and 2) their interpretation is just as valid as anybody else's outside the bounds of the story.
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Apr 27, 2020 22:10
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Elephant Ambush posted:So guys this is what I think happened at the end of the game. You're being intentionally obtuse. A reading based on what actually happens in the game is valid, regardless of what one of the creators says after the fact. Obviously it's not really worth arguing with if you just make poo poo up out of whole cloth, but if you can support your reading with evidence from the game in a convincing way, then the only way someone can really argue with your reading is by also providing evidence from the game. That's still an oversimplification but it's an idea that's at the core of literary criticism. Even if we accept the creator's after-the-fact statements as overriding interpretations based on the game's text, it's important to note that Kitase isn't the only lead writer for the original Final Fantasy VII, and we don't know what the others think of his interpretation of the ending. They notably disagreed on several things in the original game, like when Nomura convinced Kitase it was a bad idea to kill off all but three of the main characters prior to the final battle because it would dilute the impact of Aerith's death. Nojima, Kitase, and Nomura are all credited (in the game's credits) as having created the game's story ideas--Kitase isn't the guy who is the final authority. I brought up J.K. Rowling because there's actual, legitimate debate about the nature of "canon" that came up based on how she just kind of tends to tweet out or say off-the-cuff new additions to the "canon" that aren't even vaguely hinted at in the Harry Potter novels. She's an extreme modern example, of course, and nothing that Kitase or any of the Final Fantasy writers have done rises to her level at all, but still. Rowling does a lot of poo poo like, "Oh yeah there was definitely a Jewish student at Hogwarts, his name was <really stereotypical name she probably came up with by picking the second thing she saw after googling "Jewish names"> and even though he never appeared at all in any of the books he was there and that's canon now." Harrow fucked around with this message at 22:16 on Apr 27, 2020 |
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Apr 27, 2020 22:10
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Ainsley McTree posted:Maybe Sapphire Weapon knew that its own weak point was its mouth just before it was about to fire, so it tried to apply the same logic toward attacking the cannon
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Apr 27, 2020 22:15
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