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It was mostly covered in the discussion above, but for Simon I will add that in one of the conversations about Simon-as-brainscan, I'm pretty sure you're explicitly told that as the scan was such an early and crude version of the technology that it isn't really functionally complete, and it's extremely low resolution. Simon's general gormlessness and lack of mental flexibility become kind of upsetting when you consider that it may be due to him simply lacking in mental function. He is a 'sound mind' in as much as he's too clueless to face the existential terror that almost every other copied personality is facing, and it's only at the very end, alone, in the dark, helpless, isolated, that he's forced to face that existential terror. For what it's worth, I realize this borders on head-canon, but it makes too many of the other themes and details work together for me to dismiss. Simon is so completely, terminally, persistently clueless that it's hard not to believe they wanted you to connect that with the idea that he's an extremely poor simulacrum of a long-dead man with a severe head injury. He's almost childlike at times, which makes it all the more depressing that he basically gets used to enact this plan he probably had no hope of fully understanding and then left to stew on the consequences alone in the deepest darkest pit at the end of the world. Consider the fact that he was basically a test template that shipped with every copy of the hardware and you start to approach the possibility of some Omelas poo poo. And, yeah. I don't think Soma was a particularly deep exploration of the themes it chose to cover, because they've been done to death in sci-fi over many decades, but I thought it was a very entertaining presentation of those ideas. If anything, I feel like the horror game aspects were often one of the weaker elements of the experience; I wanted to learn more about this weird apocalyptic situation and what the gently caress was going to happen with the WAU trying to fix things, I'm not sure how much running from electromagnetic goo-vampires contributed to that experience (although, admittedly, it certainly tells you about how well things were going so far!)
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Apr 26, 2020 03:01
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The concept of billions of iterations of your mind used to create coffee machine control systems is a hell of a lot worse. When I was playing I assumed your mind was still inside the initial machine, being exposed to stimuli to figure out how to fix the real Simon. The station name (Pathos II) didn't help
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Apr 26, 2020 03:14
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Those are some good points and I think the (maybe completely unintentional, but nevertheless still a real and mounting sense horror of feeling like Simon is not even a copy of a whole person, but reall more of a snapshot, a snapshot of a long-dad person, it's really the final and most profound degradation Simos has inflicted on him. I really just wanted to recommend something that shares many of the same themes and hopefully get people interested in it by explaining why I think it's basically like a more matured take on. I think anyone who liked Soma would enjoy them as well.
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Apr 26, 2020 03:33
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The ending of SOMA isn't a twist. We already know how mind copying works. Simon's just a dummy that buys the coin flip analogy.
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Apr 26, 2020 16:16
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Simon I feel is a dummy regardless of the brain damage. He was given a moral choice earlier regarding the whole copying shenanigans but then he's all like "Oh it's 100% going to be different this time".
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Apr 26, 2020 16:43
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Groovelord Neato posted:The ending of SOMA isn't a twist. We already know how mind copying works. Simon's just a dummy that buys the coin flip analogy. Well, the 'twist' of the ending is that the player isn't controlling the Simon that was put into the simulation, the player is controlling the Simon created to descend into the abyss.
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Apr 26, 2020 16:56
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That's...still not really a twist. You just stick with the first perspective a little bit longer than you did when exactly the same thing happens earlier in the game. You still get to go hang out as paradise Simon for the ending and everything.
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Apr 26, 2020 21:37
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I don't think Simon acts the way he does out of brain damage and stupidity. I always thought it was obvious that his point of view is simply a willful ignorance and blind hope brought on by the reality being far too soul-crushing to comprehend. Otherwise perfectly reasonable people engage in this kind of denial all the time. It's not uncommon or unrealistic.
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Apr 26, 2020 22:32
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the irony is that the game camera actually does represent a 'soul' which transfers between bodies when Simon is copied
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Apr 26, 2020 22:36
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Dr. Eldarion posted:Alien: Blackout free on Android and iOS
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Apr 26, 2020 23:56
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Irony.or.Death posted:That's...still not really a twist. You just stick with the first perspective a little bit longer than you did when exactly the same thing happens earlier in the game. You still get to go hang out as paradise Simon for the ending and everything. There's a lot of ways they could've gone with the ending. I still like the way they did it, since it gives the player a sense of conclusion, but man oh man, would it have been dark had they left the post-credits scene out of the game entirely. By the way, if you're interested in what-might-have-beens about SOMA, I made a video out of the cut material that was packaged with the game: https://youtu.be/yh_tgh-KkAg davidspackage fucked around with this message at 06:20 on Apr 27, 2020 |
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Apr 27, 2020 06:18
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I wonder if they remembered to install a suicide button in the ARK
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Apr 27, 2020 06:23
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I stepped away for a while and a lot of people had words about SOMA. But yeah what I was referring to is Simon just not getting it with regards to how the brain copy stuff works. I don't buy the excuse people brought up that his brain might not be fully functional post-copy or that it's whatever condition he had because that seemed to effect memory not... comprehension of facts, but whatever. I liked the game all the way through, ending included but I did find myself frustrated with Simon at the end when he's surprised by the revelation that he's still in hellworld. Like, the game very very clearly laid out its rules well ahead of time and when they pointed out that the Ark was going to have digitized humans on it the conclusion was obvious: You get copied on and it's like the other two times Simon got copied. The ending is definitely not a twist at all because you see it coming hours beforehand.
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Apr 27, 2020 13:25
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In his defense a bunch of other people on Pathos didn't seem to grasp how it actually worked either. Or bought into a group delusion out of desperation.
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Apr 27, 2020 14:06
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Yeah, I think if you believe that you as the player are supposed to be in Simon's shoes throughout the experience, mentally speaking, then it would be kind of outright insulting how little pattern recognition they would expect you to have, given the point is hammered home how things work over, and over, and over again, in lore, in the side material, in the dialogue, repeatedly, with growing frustration from one character that Simon can't grasp it. It's that last fact there that makes me think it's an intentional writing choice rather than the devs having an esteem of the player's intelligence that's even lower than the depth you end at in the game. It is...not impossible that none of the devs have read any of the many sci-fi stories covering this themes until very late in their lives and they were trying to earnestly impart that revelation in this way, but it seems unlikely to me. The fact that that's an option on the table may reveal a weakness of the writing, though. Horror games shouldn't have to end with a big twist, but in spite of how everything else is laid out, it does kind of feel like the ending is meant to hit that sort of tone, thinking on it. Maybe having the moment be more somber would help, but then it wouldn't fit Simon's incredible inability to comprehend or deal with what the gently caress is going on around him at any time. Shady Amish Terror fucked around with this message at 15:28 on Apr 27, 2020 |
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Apr 27, 2020 15:24
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Piss Meridian posted:the irony is that the game camera actually does represent a 'soul' which transfers between bodies when Simon is copied Not really. We're playing through that particular Simon's experiences/memories. We're not winning any coin flips or anything, the Simon we are playing as, since the start of the game, only came into existence after that second copy. We never actually played as the Simon at the beginning, or the one who woke up at the beginning. If it was an actual transferred soul or whatever, we would've been transferred over (postcredits notwithstanding)
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Apr 27, 2020 16:10
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Besides, it's a bit of a stretch to assume that the game is actively lying about that just because the effect might be taken as the visual representation of the transfer of a soul.
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Apr 27, 2020 17:09
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Someone here made a good point why Simon still thinks he'll win the coin toss at the end of the game; because, from his perspective, he won the coin toss when they copied him into a new body before going into the abyss. The fact that he kept fooling himself is part of the tragedy. I get why people find that unsatisfying though, it's usually frustrating when your game character figures things out slower than you.
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Apr 27, 2020 17:10
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I would definitely argue that with regards to tone and themes, Simon is a tragic character in a tragedy, and it maybe doesn't mesh that well with the horror themes because they're actually kind of... secondary, in terms of the plot? There's some kind of disconnect between the horror game and the story elements it is trying to present, but I can't figure out how best to articulate it. It's still a pretty good game, though.
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Apr 27, 2020 20:30
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I think we're giving the devs too much credit for subtlety in writing given their past output - whatever their production value strengths, they don't have a track record of being able to bury the lede. The freshman-level teleporter question idea was played as way deeper and more difficult to grasp than it actually is.
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Apr 27, 2020 20:49
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Discendo Vox posted:I think we're giving the devs too much credit for subtlety in writing given their past output - whatever their production value strengths, they don't have a track record of being able to bury the lede. The freshman-level teleporter question idea was played as way deeper and more difficult to grasp than it actually is. That is literally insane. I can't possibly think that little of someone's writing ability. You are being unreasonably hostile to the devs for some reason and I really don't understand how them being the Amnesia devs have anything to do with what is very clearly setting up the idea of brain copying (no that you died years ago you're a copy, he went on with his life), reinforcing it (that other you is the one we copied you from) to ending on, no Simon you don't get to go on the ark, we're copying you. Say what you want about cheap horror game twists but when a writer repeats a theme multiple times over the course of a work, it's not because they want you to be surprised on the third time they repeat it.
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Apr 27, 2020 23:21
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People who poo poo on Simon really don't understand how good the human brain is at lying to itself when provided with horrible realities. Him just refusing to really acknowledge it is like, classic anxiety damage control.
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Apr 27, 2020 23:52
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The inability to build and sustain surprises was also a problem in Penumbra and Dark Descent, and even if you place most blame on the Chinese Room, it was also a point of downright mockery in A Machine for Pigs. The alternative is worse - that the devs think repeatedly and openly explaining what the teleporter problem is to their audience sustains any kind of fear or tension. The other NPCs similarly wrestling with this very very basic concept, killing each other over it, shows a similarly bleak degree of respect for the audience's intelligence. The first time it's explained, you go "oh, okay, that's mildly unsettling" and then the premise of all the repetitions deflates like a wet balloon. Frictional's excellent work on sound, visuals, and the presence of other less rote plot elements and choices, can only cover so much. Cardiovorax nails it as "Babby's First Existential Crisis". People were just discussing how they've had to construct elaborate head-canon to believe that the protagonist is mentally incapacitated in some way in order to make the "twist" work. That there is such an impulse to paper over this big gap and respect the other good parts of the game is telling.
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Apr 27, 2020 23:53
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Glagha posted:That is literally insane. I can't possibly think that little of someone's writing ability. you can't? it's actually very easy. i do it all the time!
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Apr 27, 2020 23:53
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Trump supporters have invented an insane conspiracy theory where he's going to take down some deep state pedophiles despite being the most obviously immoral and corrupt person to hold office in modern history. That the Pathos scientists or Simon wouldn't want to grapple with the fact that only a copy of them lives on isn't that far fetched. And I'm generally super critical of video game writing and have a number of issues with SOMA (which I've brought up earlier in the thread). I'm also in agreement with the other poster that it should've ended with him alone at the bottom of the sea.
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Apr 28, 2020 00:02
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Discendo Vox posted:The inability to build and sustain surprises was also a problem in Penumbra and Dark Descent, and even if you place most blame on the Chinese Room, it was also a point of downright mockery in A Machine for Pigs. The alternative is worse - that the devs think repeatedly and openly explaining what the teleporter problem is to their audience sustains any kind of fear or tension. The other NPCs similarly wrestling with this very very basic concept, killing each other over it, shows a similarly bleak degree of respect for the audience's intelligence. The first time it's explained, you go "oh, okay, that's mildly unsettling" and then the premise of all the repetitions deflates like a wet balloon. Frictional's excellent work on sound, visuals, and the presence of other less rote plot elements and choices, can only cover so much. Cardiovorax nails it as "Babby's First Existential Crisis". The only other real character in the game directly tells you you are a poor copy. You have brain damage. You forget important things. None of this is ''headcannon'
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Apr 28, 2020 00:08
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SOMA is doomed to an eternity of lovely discourse but I respect it for taking risks and attempting to do something unconventional. The Penumbra and Amnesia games were totally competent as games but also had insanely bland and forgettable plots that could've been drawn from a hat. Amnesia is literally titled after and hinges directly on one of the most tired narrative crutches to exist in games. Writing anything more involved than "spooky soiled note #39" has never been Frictional's strong suit, but the improvement between Amnesia and SOMA has me hopeful for Amnesia 2.
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Apr 28, 2020 00:09
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Piss Meridian posted:The only other real character in the game directly tells you you are a poor copy. You have brain damage. You forget important things. I was directly quoting someone about that.
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Apr 28, 2020 00:13
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It ain’t the Isolation sequel I wanted, and I’m not a fan of the Freddys gimmick, but I accept this.
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Apr 28, 2020 02:10
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Discendo Vox posted:The other NPCs similarly wrestling with this very very basic concept, killing each other over it, shows a similarly bleak degree of respect for the audience's intelligence. The first time it's explained, you go "oh, okay, that's mildly unsettling" and then the premise of all the repetitions deflates like a wet balloon. Frictional's excellent work on sound, visuals, and the presence of other less rote plot elements and choices, can only cover so much. Cardiovorax nails it as "Babby's First Existential Crisis". 
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Apr 28, 2020 03:58
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Ibram Gaunt posted:People who poo poo on Simon really don't understand how good the human brain is at lying to itself when provided with horrible realities. Him just refusing to really acknowledge it is like, classic anxiety damage control. Yeah this was my take on it as well. People can have some really strange, illogical reactions when they’re in (or perceive to be in) a life or death situation, to say nothing of the scenario Simon abruptly finds himself in. I’ve seen some odd behaviors in a war environment, and that was “just” other people trying to hurt you. Not, you know, monsters on the bottom of the ocean.
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Apr 28, 2020 04:04
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If I have learned anything about reading dev logs and hearing feedback and such in the world of game development, it's that the 'audience' is largely composed of people who simply don't grasp the most basic of things unless it's spelled out for them, often repeatedly.
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Apr 28, 2020 04:05
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Morpheus posted:If I have learned anything about reading dev logs and hearing feedback and such in the world of game development, it's that the 'audience' is largely composed of people who simply don't grasp the most basic of things unless it's spelled out for them, often repeatedly. Half-Life: Alyx originally had a crowbar and functioning melee system. They scrapped it for a few practical reasons, including the lack of force feedback making using it awkward and leading to people forgetting they were holding it and accidentally snagging it on objects while walking. The other reason is that testers would repeatedly believe they were playing as Gordon Freeman just because Alyx was holding a crowbar, despite this being a game named after the protagonist who talks out loud all the time.
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Apr 28, 2020 04:11
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Simon just got a girl he had a crush on killed and is slowly dying from a brain injury no one can fix and on top of that he wakes up a hundred years later in an underwater hell with robo-fish people trying to murder him. I’m not saying it’s the best writing ever committed to paper, but how is Simon an unrealistic character here? Only a loving goon would look at this situation and say “Ugh, dude is being soooo unreasonable here. I’ve taken psych 101 and I would be totally chill in this scenario”.
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Apr 28, 2020 04:14
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If that's directed at me, I feel like that's an exaggeration of my opinion on the issue.  It's not that Simon is unrealistic; the game simply spends so much time and repetition on the fact that he is not an ideal copy and is having trouble apprehending certain parts of the situation, repeatedly, even when they're spelled out for him, and then he acts like it's a surprise when they get spelled out again. I'm giving the developers the benefit of the doubt that repeatedly hammering these themes home is an intentional facet of the writing and meant to at least imply some connection between these details. It should not be necessary to spend much time discussing these ideas, much less reiterating them, as you could easily excuse his trauma as being simply due to the situation, just as you point out. In my mind, it adds a facet to Simon being more of a tragic character rather than just appearing slightly gormless (which, I should point out here, again, not unrealistic, just an artifact of video games as a medium, you're not %100 the character you're playing), though I don't know that that interpretation meshes well with other aspects of the presentation that represent a more traditional horror setting. If anything, it's more telling that in spite of his stress reaction, Simon is shockingly functional compared to the vast majority of the copied personalities. I think, in light of the other details, that this is meant to imply he is not really fully grasping the situation. If this is true, I would find this to be a slight weakness in the writing, but not a particularly noticeable one. Speaking personally, I suspect anyone who has been in a state of shock at least once in their life from adrenaline or blood loss or hypothermia could probably relate to Simon's reaction. Perhaps the problem is that I'm misinterpreting some of the presented details as over-explaining the situation, but it's still the conclusion that I've come to. E: I am a pretty disgusting meat sack though it's true bring on the robobodies Shady Amish Terror fucked around with this message at 04:40 on Apr 28, 2020 |
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Apr 28, 2020 04:37
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Here's another fun point Simon is the WAUs first success at sustaining life without creating a monstrosity or a hell. He likely represents the WAU learning to better comprehend what a person is
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Apr 28, 2020 04:42
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SBfBIhv71fY
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Apr 28, 2020 16:34
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Hell yeah. I never thought Deadly Premonition would get a sequel, but I'm so glad it did.
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Apr 28, 2020 16:55
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I just wish it wasn't Switch only.
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Apr 28, 2020 17:05
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I’m playing through The Sinking City, and it really nails the Lovecraftian atmosphere at times. Despite some big flaws, namely the combat and the way too large and empty open world, the investigations are mostly great and suitably creepy. The game does some weird things when dealing with the racism of the era/source material though. One response you can have to a literal racist ape-man is “not all Innsmouthians are bad”, while the game also features the KKK as villains who hate the refugee fish-men, who fled Innsmouth after the events of the Shadow Over Innsmouth story. Also (presumably near-end spoilers) the entire plot of the game appears to be orchestrated by Nyarlathotep in the guise of the Yellow King. It’s quite a trip, and worth picking up if it goes on sale and you like the lore.
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Apr 29, 2020 08:58
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