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lukevictorious posted:Based off one side chatter line from Biggs that "the people up here must make three or four times what I do" thinking about writing an effort/shippost about how the people above the plate are middle-to lower middle class at best, and part of what keeps them in line besides just the need/comfort of mako energy is the simple fact that are are better than the people they are (physically) above. Really they are both part of the proletariat, and there must be a true bourgeoisie that we don't see in either the original or the remake really pulling the reigns. Sure we have President and then Rufus Shinra, and we know the mayor is a puppet, but everyone else we see in Shinra-HQ is either part of the military-industrial complex or closely related. We know this is a hypercapitalist society where corporation=government. But that means money is still the driving force, so there must be other businesses and other wealthy people besides just the Shinra family. President Shinra has no real world parallel yet(he's a good businessman, remember), but I just want to know who the Jeffrey Epstein of this world must be. The wealthy upper class really probably is just the top few layers of Shinra.
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Apr 28, 2020 00:04
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lukevictorious posted:Based off one side chatter line from Biggs that "the people up here must make three or four times what I do" thinking about writing an effort/shippost about how the people above the plate are middle-to lower middle class at best, and part of what keeps them in line besides just the need/comfort of mako energy is the simple fact that are are better than the people they are (physically) above. Really they are both part of the proletariat, and there must be a true bourgeoisie that we don't see in either the original or the remake really pulling the reigns. Sure we have President and then Rufus Shinra, and we know the mayor is a puppet, but everyone else we see in Shinra-HQ is either part of the military-industrial complex or closely related. We know this is a hypercapitalist society where corporation=government. But that means money is still the driving force, so there must be other businesses and other wealthy people besides just the Shinra family. President Shinra has no real world parallel yet(he's a good businessman, remember), but I just want to know who the Jeffrey Epstein of this world must be. Dio is a casino owner who runs a private prison and conscripts labor from it for (at least) chocobo jockeys. Corneo is also bourgeoisie, albeit a big fish in a small pond One of the running themes in disc 1 of FF7 is you run into town after town that used to have an independent local identity and culture but then Shinra came in and sold them on a mako reactor and now they're a Shinra town like any other. It's not universal--Wutai and Cosmo Canyon remain independent--but the impression I got is that there really aren't any truly widespread organizations other than Shinra. It straight up does not have any competition on the world stage. This aspect of the world isn't super well thought out and a lot of it is probably just due to the very mundane restrictions of not being able to have more than ten or so towns because art assets are expensive.
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Apr 28, 2020 00:05
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Yeah I wonder if any worldbuilding will be done, historically Shinra must have had to rise up in a competitive environment before Mako gave them an unbeatable advantage
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Apr 28, 2020 00:07
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Flopsy posted:Realistically I think it's going to be this because killing off your cast would be the equivalent of gutting the golden goose and they are not going do that in any sane universe. But there's no reason they can't say "everyone dies at some point in the next 500 years", unless they plan on really stretching out the whole compilation thing.
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Apr 28, 2020 00:08
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stev posted:But there's no reason they can't say "everyone dies at some point in the next 500 years", unless they plan on really stretching out the whole compilation thing. Yes I think they plan on milking the cow till the udders come off.
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Apr 28, 2020 00:09
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:Yes. the entire game is constantly going on and on and on and on that midgar specifically is the apotheosis of humanity's cruelty to nature and the core icon of its sins and sloth. It being over grown by nature isn't meant to go "Oh humanity is wiped out and nothing's left" it's meant to signify humanity has moved on from its evil ways. If humanity is wiped out then the entire message of the game's themes and arc is entirely pointless. The final act of gameplay is an idealized version of Cloud fighting an idealized version of human sephiroth, it's entirely about Cloud's triumph over his personal demons and the corruption that has been hounding him since the start of the game and coming out stronger than ever on the other side of it, which is what the whole deal with midgar being taken over by nature is supposed to mirror.
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Apr 28, 2020 00:10
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Shinra Tower is a downgrade in general in the remake, but one thing I really miss was going across the floor that was mostly a gym where people are exercising well into the night. And close by are what appear to be bedrooms. Just taking campus culture to the extreme. It's a great worldbuilding moment.
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Apr 28, 2020 00:11
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I'm actually pretty interested to see what they do with Wutai - in the original the impression I got was that they had been crushed and utterly humiliated to the point of basically having their entire nation reduced to a tiny "exotic" tourist trap town. That's the motivating factor for Yuffie's entire character and also part of the reason why they stopped doing the more extreme SOLDIER project experiments (well that and Sephiroth going nuts). In the remake there's a ceasefire instead of a surrender, and at least enough of an active resistance to make Avalanche being a Wutai-backed cell something plausible to the average person. I also wonder if we're actually gonna see any of the Wutai War itself - it's what made Cloud want to be like Sephiroth in the first place, but I don't think we ever see any of it actually happen (unless it was in Crisis Core? I never had a chance to play that one.) Getting some flashbacks at some point, maybe from Yuffie's PoV, would go a long ways toward making her feel more fleshed out anyway. Grizzled Patriarch fucked around with this message at 00:21 on Apr 28, 2020 |
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Apr 28, 2020 00:17
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Beefstew posted:Thank you. THANK YOU. The whole game is about struggling even as things are at their worse to pick the pieces back together and work toward something better. That's everyone in the party's entire deal from start to finish. Going "And then they all died and no one is left to try and make something better (except this one that was with everyone else but I wanna read it as pessimistically as possible so i'll kind of just write of the implications of him being alive) They use red for the epilogue not to show humanity is gone but to show that they do not return to the evil poo poo that caused all of this in the first place. It's the whole deal with setting it so far in the future. FF7 is about accepting your failures and actually growing from them.
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Apr 28, 2020 00:19
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cheetah7071 posted:Dio is a casino owner who runs a private prison and conscripts labor from it for (at least) chocobo jockeys. Corneo is also bourgeoisie, albeit a big fish in a small pond That's something I'd forgotten about but given the way they've really refined and sharpened Barret's voice about the economic side effects of Shinra's grip on Midgar It's probably going to get pointed out.
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Apr 28, 2020 00:20
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that humanity survived meteorfall was never in doubt, it's the span between that and the next five centuries that's ambiguous either way the final shot of midgar means that the selfish impulses that gave rise to the crisis in the first place are gone
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Apr 28, 2020 00:22
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Grizzled Patriarch posted:I'm actually pretty interested to see what they do with Wutai - in the original the impression I got was that they had been crushed and utterly humiliated to the point of basically having their entire nation reduced to a tiny "exotic" tourist trap town. That's the motivating factor for Yuffie's entire character and also part of the reason why they stopped doing the more extreme SOLDIER project experiments (well that and Sephiroth going nuts). Here's an interesting idea that literally never been considered. Is Tseng Wutaian? If so why is he working for Shinra?
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Apr 28, 2020 00:24
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Grizzled Patriarch posted:I also wonder if we're actually gonna see any of the Wutai War itself - it's what made Cloud want to be like Sephiroth in the first place, but I don't think we ever see any of it actually happen (unless it was in Crisis Core? I never had a chance to play that one.) the opening of Crisis Core is the last major battle of the war that leads to their surrender
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Apr 28, 2020 00:25
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It was kind of weird to me that Barret always got so mad that people accused Avalanche was being backed by Wutai. Like, I get not wanting to be accused of things that aren't true, but he seemed to really not like Wutai. You'd think he's be open to any enemy of Shinra.
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Apr 28, 2020 00:28
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Rhonne posted:It was kind of weird to me that Barret always got so mad that people accused Avalanche was being backed by Wutai. Like, I get not wanting to be accused of things that aren't true, but he seemed to really not like Wutai. You'd think he's be open to any enemy of Shinra. barret probably wants to believe that AVALANCHE is strictly a force of ecological justice and the thought that it's being co-opted by a foreign power gets in the way of that
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Apr 28, 2020 00:29
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An angle people don't talk about much is that like... the Planet surviving is enough, to the point that if humanity itself were extinct in 500 years (that's not how I read the ending personally, but bear with me) that's not a tragedy, it's just a transition. FF7 takes place in a spiritual universe where the existence of the soul isn't in doubt. When people die, they rejoin the lifestream. Some amount of consciousness is retained, as evidenced by Aerith in the original. This is part of what's wrong with mako power; reactors are essentially harvesting souls to power manufacturing efficiently. Likewise, Meteor threatened the Planet and the lifestream, not just human life. The moral calculus of this stuff is different in real life and in the game. Extinction in the game doesn't have the same implications.
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Apr 28, 2020 00:29
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For the record, I don't think Aerith or Sephiroth have control of the whispers, nor are they working with them. I take Aerith's comments of losing part of herself to mean the whispers are plucking future memories from her so she can't alter things (and she has been trying to alter things, it's incredibly apparent in Chapter 8 where she melancholically states that 'giving up' is what she does best, completely at odds with her entire character. And her constant affirmations the future isn't fixed and can be changed)
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Apr 28, 2020 00:30
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Rhonne posted:It was kind of weird to me that Barret always got so mad that people accused Avalanche was being backed by Wutai. Like, I get not wanting to be accused of things that aren't true, but he seemed to really not like Wutai. You'd think he's be open to any enemy of Shinra. Being backed by Wutai undermines the whole "don't literally burn souls to power your microwaves" message of AVALANCHE. It replaces their whole ideology with "spies backed by a foreign power using environmentalism as an excuse". It's not a good thing to let happen even if Wutai would be a valuable ally against Shinra.
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Apr 28, 2020 00:31
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I'm interested to see how the remake handles Corel. The environmentalist narrative is somewhat problematized by the contrast between the Evil Effeminate Bourgeois Reactor Makers and the... Hardy Industrious Coal Miners... It's not that I don't get that a game made in a country that's experienced more than one nuclear catastrophe paints the nuclear-analogue as the clear bad one, but coal is like... extremely destructive to the environment. I wonder how they'll resolve this.
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Apr 28, 2020 00:33
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Beefstew posted:I'm interested to see how the remake handles Corel. The environmentalist narrative is somewhat problematized by the contrast between the Evil Effeminate Bourgeois Reactor Makers and the... Hardy Industrious Coal Miners... Considering that they wrote Barret becoming an Oil Baron in AC and later material. I don't think they give a poo poo.
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Apr 28, 2020 00:35
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Beefstew posted:I'm interested to see how the remake handles Corel. The environmentalist narrative is somewhat problematized by the contrast between the Evil Effeminate Bourgeois Reactor Makers and the... Hardy Industrious Coal Miners... Shinra's not effeminate apart from a cultural association between class and gender (i.e. being bougie is inherently feminine) which is something we bring to the game rather than something the game problematically teaches us. Heidegger isn't feminine, Reno and Rude aren't feminine, the endless stream of SOLDIERs and faceless Shinra military mooks aren't feminine. And I'd expect the miners not to be exclusively male in the remake, either, given the prominence of female characters like Marle and Mirielle in the slums.
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Apr 28, 2020 00:39
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There was a plotline in Before Crisis about Rufus funding the larger Avalanche group as a way of undermining his father's authority. He ended up getting caught by the Turks in that game and punished in some way. It's a weird plot but maybe they'll go that way with the larger Avalanche group that Barret's cell was cut off from, who knows.Onmi posted:Considering that they wrote Barret becoming an Oil Baron in AC and later material. I don't think they give a poo poo. It seems like Remake Barret is much more generally an environmentalist so I feel like they'll probably at least try to do a better job of giving him a coherent ideology this time. That said yeah the Final Fantasy series has a long and storied history of making GBS threads all over its own themes and ideas in supplementary/EU material. See also: the Final Fantasy X audio drama.
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Apr 28, 2020 00:40
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Harrow posted:There was a plotline in Before Crisis about Rufus funding the larger Avalanche group as a way of undermining his father's authority. He ended up getting caught by the Turks in that game and punished in some way. It's a weird plot but maybe they'll go that way with the larger Avalanche group that Barret's cell was cut off from, who knows. heidegger says during the reactor 7 raid that AVALANCHE tried to ice pres. shinra at some point recently so we'll probably get a follow-up on that related to the above
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Apr 28, 2020 00:41
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How do you all think they'll handle having up to 9 party members with the curent 3-member battle system in future games?
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Apr 28, 2020 00:41
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JesusSinfulHands posted:How do you all think they'll handle having up to 9 party members with the curent 3-member battle system in future games? by only letting you bring 3, just like the original game and most other RPGs alternatively they could either do the FFX system where you can just tag people in whenever you feel like it, or gently caress it, just give you all 9 at the same time and let you go nuts
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Apr 28, 2020 00:43
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cock hero flux posted:by only letting you bring 3, just like the original game and most other RPGs Highwind will probably be the character hub.
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Apr 28, 2020 00:46
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cock hero flux posted:Being backed by Wutai undermines the whole "don't literally burn souls to power your microwaves" message of AVALANCHE. It replaces their whole ideology with "spies backed by a foreign power using environmentalism as an excuse". It's not a good thing to let happen even if Wutai would be a valuable ally against Shinra. Yeah, that's fair, I didn't think about that. I just thought that Barret had some personal grudge with Wutai on top of everything else, but that makes more sense. cock hero flux posted:by only letting you bring 3, just like the original game and most other RPGs They're rewrite the plot so that you'll always conveniently only have 3 party members available at any given time.
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Apr 28, 2020 00:47
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cock hero flux posted:by only letting you bring 3, just like the original game and most other RPGs Do the FFX system, make it cost an ATB charge, make the entering character do an attack when they come in, and wait for the combo videos to run in.
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Apr 28, 2020 00:48
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Onmi posted:Do the FFX system, make it cost an ATB charge, make the entering character do an attack when they come in, and wait for the combo videos to run in. gently caress now I'm gonna be disappointed if they don't do this
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Apr 28, 2020 00:52
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really not looking forward to sifting through twice the weapon upgrade menus
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Apr 28, 2020 00:54
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Character combo attacks are one of the coolest things in video games yet they happen so infrequently. If Barret can't roll Cait Sith into combat like a bowling ball in Part 2 then they might as well not bother making it.
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Apr 28, 2020 00:58
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*grinning kid flips a light switch * "Thanks, grandpa!"
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Apr 28, 2020 01:04
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Oxxidation posted:really not looking forward to sifting through twice the weapon upgrade menus I hope next time they just give us the option to view it as a list. The fancy UI is cool and all but just give me a list that I can use when I have to deal with a ton of weapons.
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Apr 28, 2020 01:05
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FAUXTON posted:*grinning kid flips a light switch * "Thanks, grandpa!" *turns to the camera and gives a thumbs up* See lil' Timmy THAT'S how we beat communism!
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Apr 28, 2020 01:05
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FAUXTON posted:*grinning kid flips a light switch * "Thanks, grandpa!" i can just imagine the shinra commercial *grandpa's smiling face appears superimposed over the lightbulb and he winks at the camera*
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Apr 28, 2020 01:08
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Flopsy posted:Here's an interesting idea that literally never been considered. Is Tseng Wutaian? If so why is he working for Shinra? Are you basing that entirely on his name? I mean, Shinra and Hojo also have Asian names, and in fact Midgar appears to be almost entirely bilingual with both English and Japanese interchangeably on the signs. I suppose you could interpret it as Shinra = Japanese and Wutai = Chinese (despite the obvious WW2 allegory), but I don't recall anything else about the setting that supports that. If anything, given the "Western" look of the rest of the world, you might even think that Shinra himself comes from an old Wutai family? Clarste fucked around with this message at 01:27 on Apr 28, 2020 |
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Apr 28, 2020 01:23
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"finally the boomers give something back!" *zoom-pan over to a toaster as two slices of golden brown toast pop out of the top*
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Apr 28, 2020 01:25
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Clarste posted:Are you basing that entirely on his name? I mean, Shinra and Hojo also have Asian names, and in fact Midgar appears to be almost entirely bilingual with both English and Japanese on most of the signs. I suppose you could interpret it as Shinra = Japanese and Wutai = Chinese (despite the obvious WW2 allegory), but I don't recall anything else about the setting that supports that. Shinra is like the world's whitest man, though. Remake Rufus literally looks like he stepped out of a nazi propaganda poster. also as I recall the name "Shinra" actually comes from a chinese word meaning "all-encompassing" or something like that.
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Apr 28, 2020 01:30
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Heidegger was a Nazi, checks out
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Apr 28, 2020 01:31
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Hojo should really just be called Dr. Warcrimes.
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Apr 28, 2020 01:34
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