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Thanks Obama!
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Apr 28, 2020 17:14
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yronic heroism posted:I said the party moved left since the 90s actually. The party has, in no way, moved left since the 90's. Hillary Clinton pushed for a single payer system back then.
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Apr 28, 2020 17:15
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Cpt_Obvious posted:Merrick Garland, my favorite judge. Cool. I stan Sotomayor but RBG’s a pretty good judge too.
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Apr 28, 2020 17:15
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evilweasel posted:manchin in particular has said he will not support m4a. we can find others (i expect sienema is one), but manchin is a big one and given that the optimistic scenario for 2021 is a 50-50 split, we don't need to go farther than that. you don't get anything without 50 votes. Oh, okay. The problem wasn't how I was wording the question, the problem is that you didn't reason yourself into your belief and that asking about your reasoning is always going to result in a bunch of nonanswers. Thanks, this was certainly a learning experience.
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Apr 28, 2020 17:16
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I think we can all agree, regardless of 4d realpolitik strategizing, that a vote for Biden is a vote to put a rapist into a position where he can do more rapes.
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Apr 28, 2020 17:17
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Cpt_Obvious posted:The party has, in no way, moved left since the 90's. Hillary Clinton pushed for a single payer system back then. Yes, but gay people can get married. A position the party was brought to kicking and screaming. Honestly a lot like all other civil rights legislature, almost like activists are necessary to drag the party left.
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Apr 28, 2020 17:17
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yronic heroism posted:I said the party moved left since the 90s actually. What have the democrats done to fight sexism, racism, or the exclusion of marginalized folks in housing, healthcare, employment or the ways in which they are targeted by law enforcement?
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Apr 28, 2020 17:19
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yronic heroism posted:Cool. I stan Sotomayor but RBG’s a pretty good judge too. A....whu....huh?
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Apr 28, 2020 17:19
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Cpt_Obvious posted:The party has, in no way, moved left since the 90's. Hillary Clinton pushed for a single payer system back then. Her and no one else. Now it’s at least an actual primary issue.
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Apr 28, 2020 17:19
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yronic heroism posted:Her and no one else. HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Apr 28, 2020 17:20
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can I ask what your theory of change is edit:there's a very good cartoon in the first google link
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Apr 28, 2020 17:20
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evilweasel posted:that's not even just saying things you believe relevant to the discussion anymore, it's just shouting a random slogan Here's the indisputable fact that you keep dancing around: we're facing immediate ecological and economic crises that require immediate action. Your strategy is worthless and pointless and ineffective. The options to address these crises are to enact radical reforms or  . Voting for centrists and incrementalism is just choosing the latter option by default.
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Apr 28, 2020 17:21
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Pomp posted:What have the democrats done to fight sexism, racism, or the exclusion of marginalized folks in housing, healthcare, employment or the ways in which they are targeted by law enforcement? The civil rights act and various legislation in these areas. Cabinet appointees who actually care about these issues. Judges who actually care about and rule on these issues. DOJ suing police departments over civil rights.
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Apr 28, 2020 17:22
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Pomp posted:How is whether or not the entire system is complicit irrelevant to the discussion of whether or not "progressive" legislation is intentionally designed to be picked apart? it doesn't actually mean anything and is just a "please turn your brain off folks" request. if progressive legislation is intentionally designed to be picked apart would be a discussion that would revolve around "how does one pick apart legislation" and "what did the legislation actually say" the reality was "five unelected judges (all appointed by republicans) can pick apart legislation if they so feel regardless of how it's written, also the section we're discussing was written properly and just like tons of other similar legislation that went off without a hitch." so after we discussed (well, i told you, and you ignored) those facts you responded with a statement that boiled down to "well despite that, that's what i believe" and "the entire system is complicit!" which means nothing and is entirely unrelated to the two aspects that go to if progressive legislation is intentionally designed to be picked apart. you are wrong. the facts underpinning if the medicaid expansion was intentionally designed to be picked apart (note that this was a crazy claim to begin with) squarely rebut your claim. you appear to be unwilling to deal with either trying to rebut those facts (well, perhaps you tried and recognized it did not work) or admitting you were wrong. so what you have chosen to do is shout a meaningless slogan that "the entire system is complicit!" that doesn't mean anything, it doesn't address anything. it's just kind of an attempt to change the subject, wrap yourself in ideology such that trying to imply anyone who admits you are wrong on this issue must reject all of your worldview, just a lot of nonsense trying to avoid actually discussing the false claim you made. it was crazy and obviously untrue from the beginning because just thinking about it would make you realize you needed to ascribe absolutely lunatic motivations to democrats that made no sense whatsoever from any perspective. but even ignoring that, it was just obviously factually untrue if we chose to ignore motivations and take the claim seriously. and your response to that is to just shout slogans. that's just bad faith.
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Apr 28, 2020 17:23
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yronic heroism posted:The civil rights act and various legislation in these areas. Cabinet appointees who actually care about these issues. Judges who actually care about and rule on these issues. DOJ suing police departments over civil rights. 1) Democrats are not responsible for passing legislation that marginalized groups fight tooth and nail, or even die for. 2) And what material difference has that made to the unhoused people of america?? 3) How did this prevent Obama from building concentration camps for migrants? 4) How has this protected marginalized folks from police harassment? What difference has that made in the prosecution of murderous cops?
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Apr 28, 2020 17:27
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Eminai posted:Oh, okay. The problem wasn't how I was wording the question, the problem is that you didn't reason yourself into your belief and that asking about your reasoning is always going to result in a bunch of nonanswers. Thanks, this was certainly a learning experience. you asked a set of specific questions and got very specific answers that respond entirely to your question. unfortunately for you, i was right, and you can't actually quibble with the answers. but, uh, feel free to declare you've won and slink out if you can't figure out how to address them.
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Apr 28, 2020 17:27
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Funny to bring up the Civil Rights Movement in defense of a candidate who fought against busing.
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Apr 28, 2020 17:28
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evilweasel posted:it doesn't actually mean anything and is just a "please turn your brain off folks" request. if progressive legislation is intentionally designed to be picked apart would be a discussion that would revolve around "how does one pick apart legislation" and "what did the legislation actually say" also "the democrats explicitly deep-sixed even the idea of a public option from moment one, per Obama's pick for Health and Human Services, who was crowing about what a wonderful idea that was." but you know, details. quote:it was crazy and obviously untrue from the beginning because just thinking about it would make you realize you needed to ascribe absolutely lunatic motivations to democrats that made no sense whatsoever from any perspective. but even ignoring that, it was just obviously factually untrue if we chose to ignore motivations and take the claim seriously. and your response to that is to just shout slogans. that's just bad faith. what if the motivation of the democrats was a pathological fear of conflict with any big donors, out of which terror they deliberately weakened the poo poo out of their legislation, and were rewarded for this wise compromise with said big donors backing their challengers anyway the book Obama's preferred pick for health and human services wrote about what a brilliant plan this was is crazy, and obviously untrue from the beginning, because if it wasn't, the idea that there was a number of corpses you could pile at Chuck Grassley's feet in exchange for him not fighting you anymore would be stupid, wrong, and doomed and -that- can't be the case, for reasons that you have definitely reasoned yourself into.
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Apr 28, 2020 17:28
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Trabisnikof posted:Funny to bring up the Civil Rights Movement in defense of a candidate who fought against busing. https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/biden-racial-jungle-quote/ lmao
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Apr 28, 2020 17:30
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evilweasel posted:it doesn't actually mean anything and is just a "please turn your brain off folks" request. if progressive legislation is intentionally designed to be picked apart would be a discussion that would revolve around "how does one pick apart legislation" and "what did the legislation actually say" Is this the first time in your life you've ever heard the most basic of leftist ideals? Capital is not flawed, capital is a machine designed to crush human lives into profit. That you think this is meaningless rhetoric, irrelevant to the conversation of how power wields power says more about your privilege within the system than it does the sincerity of my beliefs.
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Apr 28, 2020 17:32
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Pomp posted:What have the democrats done to fight sexism, racism, or the exclusion of marginalized folks in housing, healthcare, employment or the ways in which they are targeted by law enforcement? I agree with your sentiment but I'll say that this is the wrong question because they do stuff. They absolutely try to help. But it is only if you look at each incident of racism, sexism, ect. as a single isolated incident. They will help you with that and they will try to make sure that specific incident will not happen again. But they will scream and cry if you ask them to make changes that acknowledge that the system was built racist. Once you ask for overhauls of a system that was quite intentionally built to be racist, we were a legal caste society for years, they refuse and pretend that nothing is wrong. The same goes for insurance. The ACA is good because some people didn't have insurance and now they do. Sure, some people still don't have it but hey, some people have it when they didn't before! Nothing wrong with continuing to support an industry that has to deny services to people sometimes because it might hurt profit.
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Apr 28, 2020 17:35
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evilweasel posted:that is both untrue, and even if it was true (it's not) it would be irrelevant. oh good we’ve circled back to “who are you gonna believe, evil weasel or your lying ears and eyes”
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Apr 28, 2020 17:36
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yronic heroism posted:I said the party moved left since the 90s actually. quote:loving cry about it. Halloween Jack fucked around with this message at 17:41 on Apr 28, 2020 |
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Apr 28, 2020 17:36
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the democrats went left after the 90s by nominating a black guy and then a woman ok
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Apr 28, 2020 17:38
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Main Paineframe posted:When Helsing told yronic to drop the "fascism" crap, I would have thought it would go without saying that everyone else should stop demanding he talk more about it. Enough already. what if instead of inventing new thread rules, the problem was just removed
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Apr 28, 2020 17:38
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Halloween Jack posted:Dismissing the carceral state, rapidly expanding inequality, and spiraling costs of education and healthcare as quotation marks economic anxiety quotation marks is appalling. Are you somebody who think that "working class" refers to white people who work in Midwestern factory towns? The 1964-1990 Democrats did not address these problems in their infancy so I don’t know why you’re so in love with them.
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Apr 28, 2020 17:43
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all this hopeful West Wing trash is the stuff I was telling Bernie people in 2016. I was horrifically wrong then and you're horrifically wrong now. Nobody Biden will empower will change a single thing for the better, the only judges he'll get through will be Heritage and Liberty U chuds, and let me tell you if you're staking your hopes on the people who have gotten disgustingly rich during the status quo altering that status quo fundamentally - people who are backing Biden because he promised them nothing fundamental would change, mind you - this is going to be a horrible, miserable 6 months for you as every week more and more stuff like "Biden hints that he would put Weinstein in charge of Women's Affairs" after he holds a big fundraiser for him comes out. Biden's done some good stuff, like come around on LGBT stuff and endorsing Roem which helped her no doubt, but he's also done a WHOOOOOLE lot of lovely stuff extremely recently and now he's running for President and his message is "I will fix nothing, I will change nothing, and I will ensure all the people who have been in power and caused all this remain in power." It's the message I've had from Dems my entire life, and I am so goddamned sick of it, and I've had enough. These people are professional losers, they love losing, it's all they know. He's welcome to try to bring me over, but I'm not holding my breath because I'm not stupid and unlike some I hear the words he's saying. If you want to get mad about the left bailing on the party, maybe look into exactly why they're bailing after being more loyal over the decades than any centrist bloc has been before you scold us all as mental toddlers who just need to lick the boots of your betters because you drat kids don't know anything. I'm not winnable, I'm lost to the party until the party is no longer to the right of Bernie, but lots are still probably gettable but they aren't without something like an ACTUAL progressive at VP and a cabinet/administration that isn't stuffed full of Summers' and CEOs and lobbyists Also if the ACA wasn't trash garbage we wouldn't be where we are right now. It's been the law of the land for a decade. If the absolute, best thing you can say in its defense is "it could be good but the party is fundamentally unable to protect it" then it's not worth poo poo and real reform should be pushed for. It's time to accept that Obama's legacy is going to be exactly two things: "first black President" and "Trump"
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Apr 28, 2020 17:43
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yronic heroism posted:The 1964-1990 Democrats did not address these problems in their infancy so I don’t know why you’re so in love with them. i bet he wants to kiss them haha (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Apr 28, 2020 17:44
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All the stuff you're talking about, putting experts and activists in charge of departments, getting money out of politics, not chaining your campaign to the whims of the ultra rich, this was Bernie's core stuff and what set him apart from the rest of the field. Look how they treated him as a result. You think this is the poo poo they want or believe in?
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Apr 28, 2020 17:44
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Raskolnikov38 posted:what if instead of inventing new thread rules, the problem was just removed Nice grudgepost from the former IK guy who chain probates and queues permas “for the lulz.” And who caught a break just yesterday for violating the “don’t call posters fascists” rule itt. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Apr 28, 2020 17:45
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yronic heroism posted:The 1964-1990 Democrats did not address these problems in their infancy so I don’t know why you’re so in love with them. the part where you tell people upset about dying to preserve the power of democrats to cry about it is *kisses fingers* you rarely see the mask ripped all the way off. just pure, uncut Die, Peasants, Die. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Apr 28, 2020 17:46
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yronic heroism posted:The 1964-1990 Democrats did not address these problems in their infancy so I don’t know why you’re so in love with them.
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Apr 28, 2020 17:47
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yronic heroism posted:Nice grudgepost from the former IK guy who chain probates and queues permas “for the lulz.” And who caught a break just yesterday for violating the “don’t call posters fascists” rule itt. nice post about posters
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Apr 28, 2020 17:47
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https://twitter.com/HCTrudo/status/1255108950434947072?s=19
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Apr 28, 2020 17:48
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Epic High Five posted:Nobody Biden will empower will change a single thing for the better, the only judges he'll get through will be Heritage and Liberty U chuds I love how stuff like this gets posted with no argument let alone proof for this prediction and you accuse us of writing political fan fiction.
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Apr 28, 2020 17:50
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yronic heroism posted:I love how stuff like this gets posted with no argument let alone proof for this prediction and you accuse us of writing political fan fiction. lol where do you think all those seats that Schumer is helping McConnell fill, including a SCOTUS one, with these people came from? They just fell from the sky as an act of God and nobody could've done anything about it and nobody is to blame?
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Apr 28, 2020 17:52
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I had to get to sleep, but I don't want to leave this unreplied to, so...yronic heroism posted:You are suggesting that chuds May have cost Romney the election. The numbers don’t bear that out when he got the same base as Trump. What does that matter? Read my post again. What I said was that: -The Tea Party disliked Romney and threatened to withhold their vote. -Romney and the party felt like they needed to appease them (and avoid the withheld vote), so they provided a bunch of concessions (the biggest of which was the choice of VP) -As a result, the Tea Party turned out for Romney (albeit tepidly - there was an enthusiasm gap Romney had to battle against) Maybe the Tea Party's threat wasn't credible, but the Republican party certainly acted like it was and took steps to prevent it. The fact that they did end up largely voting for Romney doesn't contradict my initial post in any way.
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Apr 28, 2020 17:52
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 yronic heroism posted:loving cry about it.
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Apr 28, 2020 17:52
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Cpt_Obvious posted:The party has, in no way, moved left since the 90's. Hillary Clinton pushed for a single payer system back then. "pushing" or "fighting" for things is worthless if you don't have the legislative majorities needed to see things through or the judiciary kneecaps your legislation anyway
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Apr 28, 2020 17:52
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Epic High Five posted:lol where do you think all those seats that Schumer is helping McConnell fill, including a SCOTUS one, with these people came from? They just fell from the sky as an act of God and nobody could've done anything about it and nobody is to blame? Yeah gently caress that fuckboy “Chuckboy” Schumer for not confirming all Obama’s judges with 46 votes!
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Apr 28, 2020 17:54
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