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multijoe posted:They've got to remake the classic FFVII world map in ludicrously high detail HD, that is the only acceptable outcome But not as an open world, but as an actual oldschool jrpg world map.
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Apr 28, 2020 17:31
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Agents are GO! posted:But not as an open world, but as an actual oldschool jrpg world map. Exactly. Just give the people what they want.
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Apr 28, 2020 17:38
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Legit can't wait to cruise around in that weird little car you have for a while.
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Apr 28, 2020 17:40
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If they want to get it out within the next ten years I’d imagine it will be very linear still.
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Apr 28, 2020 17:41
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CAPTAIN CAPSLOCK posted:lol Hojo does gently caress, he breeds
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Apr 28, 2020 17:45
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Toebone posted:Legit can't wait to cruise around in that weird little car you have for a while. let me fly the tiny bronco you cowards
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Apr 28, 2020 17:48
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The Trials of Mana remake has a 3D-ified classic world map. It works well enough but the load times suck (to the point where the world map or other areas in general were straight-up removed from some cutscenes as a result)
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Apr 28, 2020 17:52
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Invalid Validation posted:If they want to get it out within the next ten years I’d imagine it will be very linear still. I dunno, I think people underestimate what Square-Enix can do when they actually buckle down and develop things. The really long development cycles tend to happen because things get stuck in preproduction hell for ages as they spin their wheels and try out tons of different approaches. That's why FF7R Part 1 took five years--the actual development of the part we got probably only took two and a half or three years at most because they ditched Cyberconnect2's version two years in. Same for FFXV, which spent about seven years in preproduction with concepts being developed and thrown out before Tabata came in. Then it took three years to develop the actual game we got. Unless FF7R somehow tumbles into the "reconceptualize the entire project" stage, I think even an "open environments" version of part 2 wouldn't necessarily take a huge amount of time for them to develop. I wouldn't expect them to totally rewrite and restructure the story to make it a Witcher-style open world or anything, but I also don't think they'd necessarily have to take a hundred years to make bigger environments or even an FFXV-sized world. (Actually I wouldn't be surprised if "make areas with a lot more open space" is actually less work than making sure every area is a tightly-designed linear experience with unique puzzle mechanics and assets like FF7R part 1 often has. One reason open world games are as common as they are is that "just make more space the player has to move through" is one of the easiest ways to pad out a game's length.)
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Apr 28, 2020 17:54
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Do the FFVII world map like FFXII where it's sort of open world, but in bite-sized chunks. I think that would be the best compromise of open-endedness and high level of graphical detail without ruining technical performance Having a list like X is so lame and immersion-breaking Unless they make the next part solely exclusive to next-gen, then they don't have to worry about streaming in open world assets at all
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Apr 28, 2020 17:55
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Even if it isn't exclusive to next gen, don't forget we got things like Horizon Zero Dawn this generation, or even FFXV. FFXV's world design is lovely and boring, of course, but I don't think that was down to technical limitations as much as it was design, quests, etc.Sapozhnik posted:The Trials of Mana remake has a 3D-ified classic world map. It works well enough but the load times suck (to the point where the world map or other areas in general were straight-up removed from some cutscenes as a result) Yeah I think it's pretty realistic that future FF7R parts might have a similar map style to things like Trials of Mana or Dragon Quest XI. Something like big, explorable areas (but not fully open world) and eventually when you get the ability to fly, there's a full 3D world map but with glowing landing spots instead of letting you land anywhere.
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Apr 28, 2020 17:59
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Harrow posted:I dunno, I think people underestimate what Square-Enix can do when they actually buckle down and develop things. The really long development cycles tend to happen because things get stuck in preproduction hell for ages as they spin their wheels and try out tons of different approaches. That's why FF7R Part 1 took five years--the actual development of the part we got probably only took two and a half or three years at most because they ditched Cyberconnect2's version two years in. Same for FFXV, which spent about seven years in preproduction with concepts being developed and thrown out before Tabata came in. Then it took three years to develop the actual game we got. Yea but square enix’s track record seems to indicate they will take a million years on a project unless it’s very small in scale. I think everyone and their dog expected this game to be very mediocre and was pleasantly surprised at how it turned out. That’s not a good sign for them.
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Apr 28, 2020 18:01
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Honestly doing the FF12 thing makes the most sense. Just break everything into instanced zones. Midgar to Kalm, Kalm to Mythril Cave, etc
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Apr 28, 2020 18:02
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I'm not sure I care exactly how they play it but I do know that while they're bringing the bestiary to life for the next game they should reserve a boss slot for this funky lad from outside Midgar.   And then after the fight it turns out it's just Roche in his off duty clothes.
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Apr 28, 2020 18:04
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Invalid Validation posted:Yea but square enix’s track record seems to indicate they will take a million years on a project unless it’s very small in scale. I think everyone and their dog expected this game to be very mediocre and was pleasantly surprised at how it turned out. That’s not a good sign for them. That's true, but again, that's because their Final Fantasy projects tend to get mired in preproduction for years until something shocks them out of it and they develop the actual game in a pretty reasonable amount of time. The only way that's going to happen to FF7R part 2 is if they go back to the drawing board on like all the gameplay systems, the story direction, character design, etc. and spend years on that. Certainly not impossible, but I think it's less likely with a project like this. Anyway like a lot of people I'm expecting a sort of FFXII-like structure (which is also sort of like Dragon Quest XI), with moderately large explorable zones but not a true Witcher/FFXV-style open world. I've seen some arguments that they could go true open world with part 2, especially given that they could make the story more nonlinear specifically for part 2. In the original game, you spend a lot of disc 1 just going from place to place hearing about people in black cloaks and going wherever you heard they went. It's possible they could replace that with a more nonlinear approach to gathering clues about Sephiroth/Sephiroth clones and let you tackle some parts in a different order if you want. I don't really expect that but it could work. Harrow fucked around with this message at 18:09 on Apr 28, 2020 |
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Apr 28, 2020 18:07
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Caidin posted:I'm not sure I care exactly how they play it but I do know that while they're bringing the bestiary to life for the next game they should reserve a boss slot for this funky lad from outside Midgar. There are so many weird monsters in FFVII and I can't wait to see them remade. Like the triceratops that's also a truck, or the evil playing card I'm also looking forward to the game's take on fighting Iron Giants; hopefully it'll be more interesting than 'use spells', it'd be cool to fight it as a boss/miniboss and go through phases where you wear it down.
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Apr 28, 2020 18:08
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FFXIV also has XII-style instanced zones but larger, and they even use the exact same dotted line to indicate a zone border
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Apr 28, 2020 18:11
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Veib posted:FFXIV also has XII-style instanced zones but larger, and they even use the exact same dotted line to indicate a zone border Honestly yeah that’s a good point - I think with XII and XIV setting a very popular precedent, I think this is the most likely scenario.
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Apr 28, 2020 18:37
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Reclines Obesily posted:https://twitter.com/aitaikimochi/status/1255009208245706753 This is the only thing that matters quote:"We’re not drastically changing the story and making it into something completely different than the original. Even though it’s a Remake, please assume the story of FF7 will continue as FF7 always has."
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Apr 28, 2020 18:38
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After FF7R I just assume all the wacky poo poo from the original is going to be done in the remake. There was a lot of "they'll never do Cloud in a dress," "the weird enemies like Hell House wouldn't make sense with this remake's graphics," etc. stuff before this part came out and all of it was wrong. And then they put Cait Sith in during an FMV showing mass murder. Hojo on the beach? Playable Cait Sith in all his glory? Racing chocobos in the Gold Saucer? The Palmer boss fight? The possibility of going on a date with Barret? It's all gonna be in.
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Apr 28, 2020 18:43
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It's going to be a Barret boss fight and going on a date with Palmer.
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Apr 28, 2020 18:46
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While I'm calling shots: Barret in his sailor suit, complete with "bear wearing a marshmallow" comment (that line was the same in Japanese, turns out!), and Red XIII trying to pretend to be bipedal in a Shinra guard uniform.
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Apr 28, 2020 18:47
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I just hope they keep that fun moment where Sephiroth is murdering people in the bowels of the ship, Cloud asks who wants to join up to go look for him, and Yuffie is like "Tempting but hard pass"
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Apr 28, 2020 18:52
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I want them to keep wearing their sailor suits for that fight.
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Apr 28, 2020 19:02
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HD DAD posted:Honestly yeah that’s a good point - I think with XII and XIV setting a very popular precedent, I think this is the most likely scenario. or they could not do this because it sucks
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Apr 28, 2020 19:26
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Bleck posted:or they could not do this because it sucks 
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Apr 28, 2020 19:43
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Bleck posted:or they could not do this because it sucks What sucks about it? It gives the game room to breathe with open explorable areas without turning the entire world into one massive empty husk - and it wouldn't take Square 10 years to make. As middle grounds go it's not a bad one surely?
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Apr 28, 2020 19:45
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FF7R avoided having obvious zone transitions thanks to dividing things mostly into siloed-off mission areas in individual chapters, and by having most of the free-roam zones be fairly narrow corridors. Outdoor zones aren't likely to be able to work the same way so either things are going to have to be more open than people are expecting, or there'll at some point be zone transitions like FFXII/XIV have. Or it'll be as linear and narrow as part 1, with most areas as siloed chapter missions, but I don't think that'll feel right once we're out of Midgar.
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Apr 28, 2020 19:47
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Bleck posted:or they could not do this because it sucks I hear ya, but on the other hand, you're dumb and wrong. FFXII style is really the only thing that makes sense. The days of "classic overworlds" with characters are big as cities are over. They just won't work. If they want to keep "realistic scale" of the world, they'd basically have to just have the characters skip to the next destination by chocobo, essentially removing the "bigger world" feeling entirely, so they won't do that either. They could make extremely linear narrow paths like in most of X/XIII/VIIR, but it doesn't make any sense to have the entire world be a series of narrow canyons or claustrophobic hallways, so I think this is out also. They could do an entire "open world" like XV, but the basic plot storybeats are too linear for that to make much sense, and they're not going to want to spend the entire development time making a big world with very little to do, because there just isn't that much happening in the FFVII world. They'd have to make a whole bunch of new towns/outposts, fill them all with mundane sidequests that have nothing to do with the plot, and it wouldn't make a lot of narrative sense to have you chasing Sephiroth, but really just faffing about the entire game. An open world is too much work to create a world and sidequests that would ruin the flow and wasn't very popular in XV anyway. All that's left is the more open-style bite-size zones of XII/XIV that give an impression of larger area, but can still have set "battle regions", dialog triggers, and funnel you along to your next objective.
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Apr 28, 2020 19:49
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Schwartzcough posted:They could do an entire "open world" like XV, but the basic plot storybeats are too linear for that to make much sense, and they're not going to want to spend the entire development time making a big world with very little to do, because there just isn't that much happening in the FFVII world. Thing is: does it have to stay that way? We have assurance from Kitase that the story will be largely the same, but the plot of disc 1 in the original FFVII isn't really a tightly-plotted sequence like Midgar is. For a lot of it, you just sort of bounce from place to place chasing rumors about dudes in black cloaks. A significant portion of that could be shuffled around, rearranged, or otherwise reworked without actually changing the overall story that much. If they wanted to do a FFXV-style open world, they could make it work, I bet. If nothing else, I bet having a lot of extra space would be attractive to the team, because it's a way to stretch game assets over a larger physical area (and a longer stretch of game time). I don't really know what I'd rather see, to be honest, because there are ways that any world structure can be great or terrible depending on execution. People talk about an open world as though it would necessarily be as barren and boring as FFXV's, but that isn't guaranteed at all--I remember people assuming FF7R's action combat would suck because XV's did, too, and that definitely wasn't the case. IMO the two most likely possibilities are the game taking advantage of being on PS5 to go for a big open world to try to wow people and exceed expectations, or something like FFXII or Dragon Quest XI, with medium-sized, fairly open zones but not a true open world. I'd be happy to see either but that's mostly because we don't really know how well either would be executed. The only thing I don't really want is for things to remain as strictly chapter/mission-based as part 1, with no real ability to backtrack or revisit areas once you leave them. I don't think that'd feel right for what a vast shift the original game goes through once you leave Midgar, but I also don't think they'll do it for exactly that reason. So far they've been very faithful to how the original feels and it doesn't seem like they're going to stop now. Harrow fucked around with this message at 20:02 on Apr 28, 2020 |
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Apr 28, 2020 19:59
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You’ll just have to shimmy between a ton of conveniently placed boulders going to the next corridor.
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Apr 28, 2020 20:13
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There is a part of the Ultimania stuff that worries me a bit: https://twitter.com/aitaikimochi/status/1254993186038013954?s=20 Seems like Nomura's preference would be to release the rest of the series in a lot of smaller, more focused parts in the interest of getting each part out faster. I don't really think that'd be worth it and I'd rather wait longer to have more of the story in each individual game. Most of that is because the original game opens up a lot after Midgar, and I don't think they can really capture that at all if each part is really focused on a small portion of the original game.
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Apr 28, 2020 20:16
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I also don't want to pay for 5+ full size games just to experience the full story. Releasing it in three parts is already a huge ask.
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Apr 28, 2020 20:21
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It'd also be really weird for pacing the story, I think. Unless they switch to a Hitman or Telltale-style episodic structure--and I really hope they don't--I think they'll struggle to find good places to end each game if they split it into more than three parts, or four at most. If we look at the original story (which, according to Kitase, they're not "drastically changing" from here onward), where would be the other places where it'd make sense to put the climax of a standalone game? Is there one before the City of the Ancients? I can't really think of one. There actually are a few on disc 2--they could maybe make a bigger deal out of fighting Shinra and expand/add more context to the Huge Materia part and have a part end with rescuing Cloud from the lifestream, or end a part with the raid on Midgar and then massively expand the final push to Sephiroth that is the original game's disc 3 if they really wanted to--but even then I think that'd be pushing it. I'd prefer three parts. I can see four potentially working. Any more than that and I think a lot will be lost, either because they just stretch it out way too long to fill five or six 30-hour games, or they chop it up too much to release it in short Telltale-style episodes.
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Apr 28, 2020 20:28
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multijoe posted:I also don't want to pay for 5+ full size games just to experience the full story. Releasing it in three parts is already a huge ask. I mean that's just how episodic stories work though - it isn't as though they're cutting to the "INSERT NEXT DISC" screen and making everyone wait/pay, I think they're capable of splitting a massive epic into discrete story arcs so that it isn't jarring when one ends.
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Apr 28, 2020 20:29
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I guess just as a thought exercise, if I absolutely had to divide the story up into something like five parts, it could go something like: Part 1 - Midgar (already done) Part 2 - Start at Kalm, expand on more memorable things like Junon and the Gold Saucer, build up to a new climax that takes place when Cloud and Tifa return to Nibelheim for the first time in five years Part 3 - Pick up with an adventurous setpiece at Rocket Town, go through the City of the Ancients and Aerith's death, and end with the Northern Crater, the Reunion, and Sephiroth summoning Meteor Part 4 - Cloud's out for this entire part. The story focuses mostly on an expanded, rewritten version of the Huge Materia plot from the original, with a much heavier focus on Shinra and Rufus, probably with Barret and Tifa also taking center stage alongside Cid's group leadership. Ends with rescuing Cloud from the Lifestream. Depending on if Zack is actually alive he could maybe play a big role here or even be playable to give the player a Cloud stand-in? Part 5 - The rest of the story, including fighting Diamond Weapon, the raid on Midgar, and the final confrontation with Sephiroth If they really, really, really wanted to, they could end part 5 at the raid on Midgar and come up with a whole bunch of new stuff between then and the final battle with Sephiroth to make a part 6. Five parts is already really fuckin' pushing it, though. I could see that working, but even if I consider it with as much benefit of the doubt as possible, I'd still rather just see three parts.
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Apr 28, 2020 20:37
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FAUXTON posted:I mean that's just how episodic stories work though - it isn't as though they're cutting to the "INSERT NEXT DISC" screen and making everyone wait/pay, I think they're capable of splitting a massive epic into discrete story arcs so that it isn't jarring when one ends. Episodic games usually cost the price of a single game for the full season, not £50 per episode. What I'm saying is I don't want to spend £250+ on the full FFVII experience.
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Apr 28, 2020 20:38
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multijoe posted:Episodic games usually cost the price of a single game for the full season, not £50 per episode. What I'm saying is I don't want to spend £250+ on the full FFVII experience. There's also the possibility that he doesn't mean going full Hitman/Telltale episodic, but instead dividing the story into more than three pieces but making each part into a 30-hour game like they just did with Midgar (something like I took a shot at outlining just above your post). The reason that might take less time to develop is just because the longer they can keep you doing new things in the same area, the more use they get out of those environments and assets, and the fewer new environments/assets they need to make for each individual game. Depending on how they handle production and whether they change much gameplay-wise between sections, it's hypothetically possible we could just get annual (or like every 1.5 years or something) 30-hour FF7 Remake games that are all sorta like this first one for the next six years or so until the game is done. I don't really think I want that--again, I think it'd do really weird poo poo to the pacing and kill any chance of the games having a satisfying exploration/world element to them--and also I don't think that's really guaranteed. Nomura wants to have the games out at a fast pace but he's not the only decision-maker and nothing is set in stone. I personally would rather wait 3 years between games and have three really complete-feeling games that are able to evolve and change as needed between each part than have a faster release cycle but a chopped-up story. But then again, I'm not the one who has to make them or decide how to budget them or anything like that so who knows, a lot's gonna go into that decision on Square's end I guess. Harrow fucked around with this message at 20:51 on Apr 28, 2020 |
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Apr 28, 2020 20:47
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Flopsy posted:You can even see it in the designs. Aya Brea is essentially a Cloud gender bend. somehow this makes Aya better.
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Apr 28, 2020 20:51
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FF7R-1: REMAKE FF7R-2: REDUCE FF7R-3: REUSE FF7R-4: RECYCLE
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Apr 28, 2020 20:54
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Oxxidation posted:FF7R-1: REMAKE FF7R-5: REGURGITATE
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Apr 28, 2020 20:56
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