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At what point would the game cease to resemble FF7? If the focus of the project becomes wrangling every major area into a full size game then suddenly it's just a different story that happens to have the plot and characters from FF7 happening alongside it. I think 3 parts is the absolute limit. Beyond that, the story will be stretched beyond recognition, and the inevitable lack of mechanical continuity will be more and more obvious. Yuffie can only rob the party once.
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Apr 28, 2020 20:56
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Honestly, I'm not really sure I believe Kitase either. At the very least, we have multiple characters and possibilities in play now we did not previously have. He has to say "assume the story will continue as it always has" to dissuade people fearful we're going full Kingdom Hearts, but I sincerely doubt we're just going to do a complete 1:1 story at this point so much as a Ultimate Universe Golden Path version of FF7.
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Apr 28, 2020 21:00
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There's no way the areas other than midgar get the same 10x embiggening Midgar got. The rest of the world just isn't as interesting as Midgar. I expect more like a 2-3x embiggening of most zones. Maybe keep the 10x for a handful of unusually interesting areas.
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Apr 28, 2020 21:01
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Harrow posted:IMO the two most likely possibilities are the game taking advantage of being on PS5 to go for a big open world to try to wow people and exceed expectations, or something like FFXII or Dragon Quest XI, with medium-sized, fairly open zones but not a true open world. I'd be happy to see either but that's mostly because we don't really know how well either would be executed. I personally hope development happens fast enough and the PS5 gets delayed long enough that I don’t need to buy a whole new system to play the rest of the remakes. But I don’t believe it. As far as map design goes, I just want something that feels good in and of itself, something that actually fits the narrative. XV pulls off its open world by making the party the main character, so to speak, and their road trip is the emotional core of the story. And X is basically the same set of hallways as XIII, but it gets away with it by telling an actually compelling (and largely linear!) narrative. For VII, it’s hard to say what to do. The world map’s function in the original was a big graphical statement—it hit me the same way the first time I played Mario 64 hit me. That’s not something that I think is possible here. So who knows!
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Apr 28, 2020 21:01
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cheetah7071 posted:There's no way the areas other than midgar get the same 10x embiggening Midgar got. The rest of the world just isn't as interesting as Midgar. I expect more like a 2-3x embiggening of most zones. Maybe keep the 10x for a handful of unusually interesting areas. Honestly, I would personally assume we'll be seeing towns and locations as hubs from which sidequests and the like occur. Some towns are entirely disposable, and hub-based gameplay lets us allude to a much larger world around us without literally saying "oh there's just ten towns on the planet." I mean they already did this with Midgar, which has a few specific content hubs in it.
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Apr 28, 2020 21:02
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stev posted:At what point would the game cease to resemble FF7? If the focus of the project becomes wrangling every major area into a full size game then suddenly it's just a different story that happens to have the plot and characters from FF7 happening alongside it. Jetrauben posted:Honestly, I'm not really sure I believe Kitase either. At the very least, we have multiple characters and possibilities in play now we did not previously have. He has to say "assume the story will continue as it always has" to dissuade people fearful we're going full Kingdom Hearts, but I sincerely doubt we're just going to do a complete 1:1 story at this point so much as a Ultimate Universe Golden Path version of FF7. I honestly think that if they went through all the trouble of setting up the whispers plotline only to hit Aerith dying at the City of the Ancients and all the other major plot beats in basically the same way, I will agree that they hosed up the ending of 7R. If they were going to do that they could have just ended without the Whispers
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Apr 28, 2020 21:03
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CharlieFoxtrot posted:I honestly think that if they went through all the trouble of setting up the whispers plotline only to hit Aerith dying at the City of the Ancients and all the other major plot beats in basically the same way, I will agree that they hosed up the ending of 7R. If they were going to do that they could have just ended without the Whispers Yeah, same. I'm on board for "the story broadly resembles its original beats," but I sincerely doubt that they'll be so bad at the character beats and gauging their setup as to just completely ignore what the ending of the first episode sets up. And "welp, guess destiny ends up the exact same way" would be silly as well as bad writing. We changed poo poo. That should amount to more than "a timeline we'll never see had a better outcome" or "Advent Children is retconned so now humanity's survival at the end is in actual doubt" - I know folks hate AC around here, but I actually don't mind it as such and appreciate it rejecting the whole "humanity is the disease, Holy is the cure" poo poo.
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Apr 28, 2020 21:05
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Jetrauben posted:Yeah, same. I'm on board for "the story broadly resembles its original beats," but I sincerely doubt that they'll be so bad at the character beats and gauging their setup as to just completely ignore what the ending of the first episode sets up. And "welp, guess destiny ends up the exact same way" would be silly as well as bad writing. Agreed, but it’s so funny to figure out the corporate line on this. Square spent most of my life telling me to kill god and/or defy fate, and then took an abrupt surge into biblical self-sacrifice for XV that still throws me for a loop (though I think the DLCs would’ve finally ended up with the cast beating Bahamut had it been allowed to finish). VIIR sure ends on a defiant note, but I could see them zagging back after that zig—as some have said, maybe Aerith decides she actually does have to die? Is this X but backwards? Did Kitase do a backflip into the Square writers’ room and then write “REVERSE YUNA” on the whiteboard before flipping back up to the executive offices?
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Apr 28, 2020 21:15
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rko posted:Agreed, but it’s so funny to figure out the corporate line on this. Square spent most of my life telling me to kill god and/or defy fate, and then took an abrupt surge into biblical self-sacrifice for XV that still throws me for a loop (though I think the DLCs would’ve finally ended up with the cast beating Bahamut had it been allowed to finish). VIIR sure ends on a defiant note, but I could see them zagging back after that zig—as some have said, maybe Aerith decides she actually does have to die? XV is a really.... weird game. I think there's also a unique element in XV's "accept your fate" vibe which feeds into the fact that Noctis is a king, and he's carrying out a distinctly Arthurian self-sacrifice motif. While unique, it's definitely something I wouldn't necessarily say reads the same when it's "an innocent young woman needs to die for the world to live" rather than "a king must die for his people."
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Apr 28, 2020 21:19
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Personally I hope they go back to their roots. 
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Apr 28, 2020 21:27
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Jetrauben posted:XV is a really.... weird game. I think there's also a unique element in XV's "accept your fate" vibe which feeds into the fact that Noctis is a king, and he's carrying out a distinctly Arthurian self-sacrifice motif. While unique, it's definitely something I wouldn't necessarily say reads the same when it's "an innocent young woman needs to die for the world to live" rather than "a king must die for his people." That makes a lot of sense. And I even appreciate the pretentious tragedy that XV is aiming for—but I’m glad I waited to play the game until last year, because without the DLC the game was an unfinished mess, based on what I’ve read. I’d love to know how Square led the storyline development for this game. XV and KH3 are probably two of the most bizarrely plotted games I’m aware of, and both required massive DLC revisions to work. You can blame Disney for KH3, but Square hasn’t told a good FF story since XII (the MMO notwithstanding).
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Apr 28, 2020 21:31
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I think it helps that they had a whole game to crib story from without a whole lot of change.
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Apr 28, 2020 21:34
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Maybe from now on Square should adapt all future Final Fantasy storylines from existing narratives. FF16 will be King Lear featuring the series' oldest protagonist yet, an elderly 34-year old with three daughters.
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Apr 28, 2020 21:40
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Jetrauben posted:Honestly, I'm not really sure I believe Kitase either. At the very least, we have multiple characters and possibilities in play now we did not previously have. He has to say "assume the story will continue as it always has" to dissuade people fearful we're going full Kingdom Hearts, but I sincerely doubt we're just going to do a complete 1:1 story at this point so much as a Ultimate Universe Golden Path version of FF7. A giant sandworm Leto Atreides in the Lifestream dictating how everything should be. His one memo: That bitch Aeris needs to die
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Apr 28, 2020 21:43
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The Dave posted:Personally I hope they go back to their roots. Cloud had bitch tits
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Apr 28, 2020 21:49
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The Unnamed One posted:Cloud had bitch tits that's what happens when you're part of a state-run doping program though
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Apr 28, 2020 21:56
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stev posted:What sucks about it? It gives the game room to breathe with open explorable areas if they're going to continue with 7R's tight focused areas, I'm cool with that if they're going to give us XV style huge open map with things and you get to cruise around and listen to your characters banter with each other, that might be good if they're going to put me in a small room with the exit on one end and a chest with a potion on the other and surrounded that small room with a big skybox so I can pretend I'm outside and "exploring" then no I'd rather not that please thanks
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Apr 28, 2020 21:57
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Gotta be honest, that Nomura quote about chopping the game up into smaller parts leading to faster development and wanting to release the next part ASAP has me feeling more pessimistic about the future of the FFVII Remake than I have since, like, 2016. I went from thinking "wow, FF7R kicked rear end, the next part's gonna be amazing" to "ah poo poo they're going to crash this into the ground immediately and we're going to wish they'd never made it in the first place." Maybe the most surefire way to gently caress this up from here is to chop it into six or seven parts, release one every year or year and a half, and just drag it out until we just want them to stop, like when Ubisoft was doing annual lovely Assassin's Creed games. I hope that's just some comment he made and that internal discussions end up arriving at the decision that it's better to take longer to develop fuller games. Bleck posted:if they're going to put me in a small room with the exit on one end and a chest with a potion on the other and surrounded that small room with a big skybox so I can pretend I'm outside and "exploring" then no I'd rather not that please thanks They really only did that in XII because it was on the PS2. I don't think anyone means that we'll literally have FFXII-sized areas, complete with weird little in-between zones that make you load in and out of them. Though there's also a subtle difference between what FFXII does and what games like Dragon Quest VIII/XI do. In FFXII, a lot of the areas you travel through between major destinations are structured like dungeons, even outdoor dungeons, and tend to have some story content attached to you navigating them, which is something FF7R does a lot. That's not quite as much the case in Dragon Quest XI, for example, which mostly treats its outdoor areas as open fields you can run through and explore.
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Apr 28, 2020 22:04
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I mean, even in XII, with each "region" being comprised of a bunch of zones, the individual zones were not "small rooms". A lot of them were really big areas, and often they gave you multiple paths through the region. But they can funnel you down through enough places for forced triggers for dialog or character interaction beats. They're basically the same as how VIIR did areas, but bigger.
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Apr 28, 2020 22:16
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Schwartzcough posted:I mean, even in XII, with each "region" being comprised of a bunch of zones, the individual zones were not "small rooms". A lot of them were really big areas, and often they gave you multiple paths through the region. But they can funnel you down through enough places for forced triggers for dialog or character interaction beats. They're basically the same as how VIIR did areas, but bigger. There were a few parts with small outdoor "rooms" but for the most part each region was fairly large, yeah. I can think of a few areas in the original where there's a small "room"-like area in the middle of one of those with like a save point and an NPC or a chest, then you go through the other side and it's another big area. It doesn't happen nearly enough to be a real issue and also I doubt it'd happen at all post-PS2 era.
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Apr 28, 2020 22:19
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Invalid Validation posted:I think it helps that they had a whole game to crib story from without a whole lot of change. I guess, but coming up with a story is the easy part, honestly, and it’s one where Square has often done quite well. It’s the execution where Square has historically hosed things up. Even Kingdom Hearts has a perfectly serviceable shounen manga plot undergirding the story, once you look past the idiotic way the story is told. It’s not so much plotting as it is pacing and ambition. I think FF7R works entirely because it doesn’t try to bite off more plot than it can chew. Virtually all of their problems come from overpromising internally and being unable to deliver, from Xenogears losing its whole staff to FF8 and getting released unfinished to KH3 being developed as a series of Disney vignettes surrounded by the story Nomura & Co. wanted to tell (and a recap for the people who didn’t play a half-dozen games across as many systems).
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Apr 28, 2020 22:19
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Harrow posted:Gotta be honest, that Nomura quote about chopping the game up into smaller parts leading to faster development and wanting to release the next part ASAP has me feeling more pessimistic about the future of the FFVII Remake than I have since, like, 2016. I went from thinking "wow, FF7R kicked rear end, the next part's gonna be amazing" to "ah poo poo they're going to crash this into the ground immediately and we're going to wish they'd never made it in the first place." Maybe the most surefire way to gently caress this up from here is to chop it into six or seven parts, release one every year or year and a half, and just drag it out until we just want them to stop, like when Ubisoft was doing annual lovely Assassin's Creed games. Given how much the developers did with a half-dozen hours worth of gameplay from the original, I’m happy to let them serialize this however they like, provided they give it as much love as Midgar got. There’s no reason to rush things if they can keep the narrative energy moving despite cutting things into a few more parts (I’d bet money on no more than five parts though). But I’m also a little piggie and I’ll buy a PS5 to slurp up the slop Nomura sets out for me, so gently caress it, I have no dignity, I’ll pay $40 for FF7 Re:Kalm. God help me.
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Apr 28, 2020 22:28
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I just don't see people staying interested enough to buy five of these things. Yes the game we have is great but after three games of tiny steps forward through the main plot surely people will get sick of it.
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Apr 28, 2020 22:33
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rko posted:Given how much the developers did with a half-dozen hours worth of gameplay from the original, I’m happy to let them serialize this however they like, provided they give it as much love as Midgar got. There’s no reason to rush things if they can keep the narrative energy moving despite cutting things into a few more parts (I’d bet money on no more than five parts though). I think it comes down to the gameplay and story pacing, for me. If each part is going to be a full-length game that takes us through a full level/gear/materia progression like this one, I think that's going to get fatiguing if we have like six or seven parts that come out relatively quickly. The core combat systems won't be changing much in between with that short a development time, and going through roughly the same progression over and over would get old no matter how fun the combat is. Meanwhile, chopping up the story and then really expanding each episode is going to be a monster to pace well. If Nomura instead intends to pivot to a Hitman or Telltale-style episodic structure, releasing like two episodes a year but with total continuity between the games, the issue becomes that we lose any real chance at having an explorable world or any good "okay you're cut free to go have some fun, look around, do side quests, whatever you want to do" JRPG moments. Maybe they'll prove me wrong on that and it'll work, but I can't see how any more than three or four parts total could be anything other than exhausting. I worry that I'll be hearing about FF7 Remake Part 6 in ten years and just not care at all by that point.
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Apr 28, 2020 22:35
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stev posted:I just don't see people staying interested enough to buy five of these things. Yes the game we have is great but after three games of tiny steps forward through the main plot surely people will get sick of it. I'd say that depends on how good the product turns out honestly. Off topic : God I feel like a Jeff Goldblum's the fly reject now LMAO Flopsy fucked around with this message at 22:41 on Apr 28, 2020 |
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Apr 28, 2020 22:38
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Harrow posted:Gotta be honest, that Nomura quote about chopping the game up into smaller parts leading to faster development and wanting to release the next part ASAP has me feeling more pessimistic about the future of the FFVII Remake than I have since, like, 2016. I went from thinking "wow, FF7R kicked rear end, the next part's gonna be amazing" to "ah poo poo they're going to crash this into the ground immediately and we're going to wish they'd never made it in the first place." Maybe the most surefire way to gently caress this up from here is to chop it into six or seven parts, release one every year or year and a half, and just drag it out until we just want them to stop, like when Ubisoft was doing annual lovely Assassin's Creed games. I was excited about future games right up until I saw this post and realized that you're right.
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Apr 28, 2020 23:00
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I would guess that Wutai will get a significantly expanded role in future installments. It would probably be smart for them to roll at least one main story branch into Wutai to connect with the foreshadowing in Part 1.
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Apr 28, 2020 23:02
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theres a lot of unique environments in the rest of disc 1 which i think would cause dev problems to try creating all of those at once, even with the work they already have completed. as far as the story pacing i agree with 3 parts making the most sense but i feel like 4 parts would lead to a higher quality product in the end, with no memorable areas feeling rushed or shafted. but idk where the next good stopping point would be before the end of disc 1
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Apr 28, 2020 23:04
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TheLoquid posted:I would guess that Wutai will get a significantly expanded role in future installments. It would probably be smart for them to roll at least one main story branch into Wutai to connect with the foreshadowing in Part 1. I'm hoping that's all propaganda and there really is no strong Wutai out there, all the financial backing is just Shinra making sure he controls the opposition - or his son, trying to kill him, who abandons the propaganda in favour of ruling through fear of being put in a room with Hojo. ETA: you could maybe stop after Temple of the Ancients? Add a Jenova boss and boom, climax to part two. Part three is going after Aerith and then... Cavelcade fucked around with this message at 23:08 on Apr 28, 2020 |
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Apr 28, 2020 23:05
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Wonder if they're looking to an FF14-style release pattern. DLC chapters every 4 months leading into a new large installment in two years' time, rinse and repeat for another two years and wrap it up with a third part Like they made a bunch of DLC episodes for FF15, I cannot imagine them not doing anything with 7R until the follow-up
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Apr 28, 2020 23:29
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CharlieFoxtrot posted:Wonder if they're looking to an FF14-style release pattern. DLC chapters every 4 months leading into a new large installment in two years' time, rinse and repeat for another two years and wrap it up with a third part Well, the presence of a separate installation disc vs play disc would seem to help the idea of there being a single recurring framework?
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Apr 28, 2020 23:32
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Jetrauben posted:Well, the presence of a separate installation disc vs play disc would seem to help the idea of there being a single recurring framework? That's fairly common with recent games though. It just means they couldn't get it all onto one Blu Ray. I don't hate the idea of DLC for this but I can't imagine what it'd be. e: And no they probably aren't going to follow the MMO/live service release template for this single player game. stev fucked around with this message at 00:01 on Apr 29, 2020 |
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Apr 28, 2020 23:57
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I think FF7R will still be three games, and I'm mostly thinking of it in terms of a series of three-act structures, just so each game has appropriate dramatic pacing, and that the project as a whole has its own distinct arcs. Midgar is already the first act of FF7, and the game changes pace after you leave. It also had it's own structure of: Act 1: Beginning to the Reactor 5 fiasco Act 2: Meeting Aeris to the plate collapse Act 3: Raiding Shinra HQ and escaping Part 2 will probably look something like: Act 1: Nibelheim flashback Act 2: Open World Road Trip Adventure! (Junon, Wutai, Costa del Sol, Gold Saucer, Corel, etc) Act 3: Temple of the Ancients to Aeris' death And then I'd imagine Part 3 would be: Act 1: North Crater, ending at Meteor's summoning Act 2: Whatever they replace the stupid huge materia quest with up until Cloud's self-actualization Act 3: Taking down Shinra and Sephiroth
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Apr 29, 2020 00:07
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Were the weird machines with the hands saying stop or whatever that you fight in Shinra HQ in the remake? I never saw them if so
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Apr 29, 2020 00:13
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Macaluso posted:Were the weird machines with the hands saying stop or whatever that you fight in Shinra HQ in the remake? I never saw them if so no and i'm mad about it!
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Apr 29, 2020 00:15
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Beefstew posted:I think FF7R will still be three games, and I'm mostly thinking of it in terms of a series of three-act structures, just so each game has appropriate dramatic pacing, and that the project as a whole has its own distinct arcs. Part 2: Ending at northern crater would be a better endpoint than temple of the ancients and I will die on this hill  Also you are missing part 2A: Golden saucer standalone game 
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Apr 29, 2020 00:34
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CAPTAIN CAPSLOCK posted:Part 2: Ending at northern crater would be a better endpoint than temple of the ancients and I will die on this hill I agree that the Northern Crater is the true low point of the story, but I think if we're doing 3 games then we'll end on Aeris' death. If we're doing 5, the penultimate game will likely end there.
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Apr 29, 2020 00:36
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Macaluso posted:Were the weird machines with the hands saying stop or whatever that you fight in Shinra HQ in the remake? I never saw them if so I wonder if the Sledgeworms were meant to be spiritual successors- enemies that pop out of holes.
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Apr 29, 2020 00:37
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Rufus and the turks ages have been released https://twitter.com/aitaikimochi/status/1254963967090241536 I'm guessing they might bump Cid up to 40 something seeing as they're actually realistically portraying that age group lol
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Apr 29, 2020 01:06
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Oop! There's more https://twitter.com/aitaikimochi/status/1255193552759386112 https://twitter.com/aitaikimochi/status/1255187266479087616
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Apr 29, 2020 01:10
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