|
Brother Entropy posted:actually my brain was smart for not paying money for tlou and waiting for it to hit ps+ my big brain is smarterer since i never even played it cause nd just make dumb games with railroad gameplay and all i'm here to do is gloat how my superior taste saved me from such dog poo poo
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2020 00:22
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 1, 2024 08:05 |
|
|
Zeta Acosta posted:TLOU wanted to be a movie so bad that it fails as a game because we cant control Joel or Ellie`s action regarding the final act. Of course i would have shot the doc and saved her but what if: purposefully refusing player agency in a medium where there is player agency is a legitimate tool to use and it doesnt make a game fail at being a game regardless of how well that tool was wielded.
|
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2020 00:24
|
|
|
The Fireflies deserved to die but only because they were stupid enough to let someone tell Joel that Ellie was going to die as a result of the surgery instead of just lying about it.
|
|
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2020 00:26
|
|
|
Stux posted:purposefully refusing player agency in a medium where there is player agency is a legitimate tool to use and it doesnt make a game fail at being a game regardless of how well that tool was wielded. But it is bad writing 
|
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2020 00:27
|
|
|
SirKibbles posted:But it is bad writing Based on......
|
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2020 00:28
|
|
|
FallenGod posted:Actually, I killed my child to save the whole world, it was quite the moral dilemma and I really had to think on that one Both the Fireflies (and Ellie's adoptive mom) and Joel were wrong because in both cases neither of them cared about giving Ellie the agency and choice to decide for herself. Regardless of if it would have worked or not the end result is both groups (who are basically Ellie's Mom and Dad) deciding for her. Both were selfish because in both cases they made the decision based on their own emotions and personal trauma. The final confrontation between Marlene and Joel is Marlene going "Ellie would make this decision" and Joel shooting her when she tries to talk to him about it. That basically sums up both characters. Marlene convinced herself Ellie would have sacrificed herself, Joel didn't want to hear what she thinks Ellie would do, and neither of them bothers to actually talk to the person involved about it. SunAndSpring posted:The Fireflies deserved to die but only because they were stupid enough to let someone tell Joel that Ellie was going to die as a result of the surgery instead of just lying about it. This was all Marlene's fault. She thought Joel was the only other person to know what she was going through.
|
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2020 00:28
|
|
|
ImpAtom posted:Killing a character off isn't meant to be punishment. If done poorly (and TLOU2 has a good chance of being done poorly) it can upset people for the wrong reasons but it isn't to punish players. The viewpoint of "you're killing the character I like as a slight to me" isn't generally one backed up unless you get an author who is so sick of being asked to write a character they just want them to go over a waterfall. i mean usually killing off a character isn't mean to be punishment but like oxx has been saying tlou2 really comes off like naughty dog going 'you idiots, you weren't supposed to react to tlou like that! let's do it again but louder and stupider and more blunt!' so they're gonna make joel worse and ellie worse and try to make people sympathize with the person who brutally kills joel
|
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2020 00:30
|
|
|
i mean tlous writing isnt that amazing no, its like, just solidly fine to good. but its shocking to me genuinely so many people seem to have misread like, basic story elements so hard and im not longer shocked if tlou2 is extremely upfront about it to the point of excess.
|
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2020 00:32
|
|
|
ImpAtom posted:Both the Fireflies (and Ellie's adoptive mom) and Joel were wrong because in both cases neither of them cared about giving Ellie the agency and choice to decide for herself. Regardless of if it would have worked or not the end result is both groups (who are basically Ellie's Mom and Dad) deciding for her. Both were selfish because in both cases they made the decision based on their own emotions and personal trauma. That would work better if the game took place over a longer period of time or if Ellie was an adult from the start. As it is, you have a bunch of adults making a hard decision in place of a 14 year old, which...duh? Unless Neil Druckmann wanted gamers to debate the age of consent, which would be an unholy trainwreck.
|
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2020 00:33
|
|
|
Brother Entropy posted:i mean usually killing off a character isn't mean to be punishment but like oxx has been saying tlou2 really comes off like naughty dog going 'you idiots, you weren't supposed to react to tlou like that! let's do it again but louder and stupider and more blunt!' so they're gonna make joel worse and ellie worse and try to make people sympathize with the person who brutally kills joel If the whole game is just a long-form version of Johnny from The Lost and Damned getting his head stomped in, that's actually pretty funny.
|
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2020 00:33
|
|
|
Brother Entropy posted:i mean usually killing off a character isn't mean to be punishment but like oxx has been saying tlou2 really comes off like naughty dog going 'you idiots, you weren't supposed to react to tlou like that! let's do it again but louder and stupider and more blunt!' so they're gonna make joel worse and ellie worse and try to make people sympathize with the person who brutally kills joel This is in fact what want he is doing so you can see his true vision. Hatred being the theme is going to be hilarious given all the reasons people are about to be pissed off. Kinda sad seeing that unfold real time would've been gold.
|
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2020 00:34
|
|
|
FallenGod posted:That would work better if the game took place over a longer period of time or if Ellie was an adult from the start. agreed, adults should be allowed to make a life and death decision for a 14 year old without their consent, this is a normal opinion
|
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2020 00:36
|
|
|
Dewgy posted:If the whole game is just a long-form version of Johnny from The Lost and Damned getting his head stomped in, that's actually pretty funny. That also sucked, The Lost and Damned was the better GTAIV story and it ended on an actual good bit, which R* being the incredibly eyerolly writers they are when it comes to GTA, dumped all over for whacky randumb crazy man intro.
|
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2020 00:38
|
|
|
Brother Entropy posted:i mean usually killing off a character isn't mean to be punishment but like oxx has been saying tlou2 really comes off like naughty dog going 'you idiots, you weren't supposed to react to tlou like that! let's do it again but louder and stupider and more blunt!' so they're gonna make joel worse and ellie worse and try to make people sympathize with the person who brutally kills joel I took it as what Joel did catching up to him. I mean just from playing TLOU, Joel comes across as an amazingly selfish, brutal, entitled, and awful human being. I honestly think a lot of players actually see themselves in Joel.
|
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2020 00:38
|
|
|
Legal guardians generally are the ones to give consent for medical operations for minors but that's not the point. The point is that there was no way a cure was going to matter due to the Fireflies having no way to mass produce or distribute one, duh.
|
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2020 00:38
|
|
|
Brother Entropy posted:i mean usually killing off a character isn't mean to be punishment but like oxx has been saying tlou2 really comes off like naughty dog going 'you idiots, you weren't supposed to react to tlou like that! let's do it again but louder and stupider and more blunt!' so they're gonna make joel worse and ellie worse and try to make people sympathize with the person who brutally kills joel that you still believe you’re supposed to “sympathize” with anyone shows you still don’t get it
|
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2020 00:38
|
|
|
RBA Starblade posted:Legal guardians generally are the ones to give consent for medical operations for minors but that's not the point. this might be a cultural thing but in the uk minors are able to overrule their parents on medical matters because theyre distinct human beings and not property.
|
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2020 00:39
|
|
|
Stux posted:agreed, adults should be allowed to make a life and death decision for a 14 year old without their consent, this is a normal opinion Yeah, turns out minors can't consent to a lot of things.
|
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2020 00:40
|
|
|
FallenGod posted:That would work better if the game took place over a longer period of time or if Ellie was an adult from the start. A significant portion of TLOU is Joel gradually treating Ellie as someone who is capable of taking responsibility for serious things, eventually giving her weapons and then we come to the climactic part of the story where you literally take control of Ellie as she kills people. It is almost exclusively in self-defense but Ellie has a double digit body count (even ignoring video game stuff) by the time they reach the Fireflies. There is no real justification for saying "Ellie can't make the decision herself" because Joel has explicitly trusted her to make the decision to pull the trigger and take someone else's life. Marlene is also probably correct in that Ellie would have chosen to sacrifice herself because she has massive survivor's guilt and is a generally good person. Joel knows Ellie well enough to know that and isn't going to give her that decision. That is also why he lies to her at the end. It shouldn't be a decision put on a child but neither is it a decision that either of her parents are remotely justified in making without her input.
|
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2020 00:40
|
|
|
Brother Entropy posted:i mean usually killing off a character isn't mean to be punishment but like oxx has been saying tlou2 really comes off like naughty dog going 'you idiots, you weren't supposed to react to tlou like that! let's do it again but louder and stupider and more blunt!' so they're gonna make joel worse and ellie worse and try to make people sympathize with the person who brutally kills joel Also I want to point out that the bolded part never works people see what you're doing and double down out of spite ie : Sylvanas or Dany in GoT
|
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2020 00:41
|
|
|
RBA Starblade posted:Legal guardians generally are the ones to give consent for medical operations for minors but that's not the point. I think this is missing the point as well. Even if you can't mass produce or distribute one, that knowledge still exists.
|
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2020 00:41
|
|
|
I... was being sarcastic. Stux posted:this might be a cultural thing but in the uk minors are able to overrule their parents on medical matters because theyre distinct human beings and not property. In America its generally recognized that minors cannot give meaningful consent to anything because their brains aren't developed yet But really the point was that they can't deliver a vaccine anywhere
|
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2020 00:41
|
|
|
Oxxidation posted:that you still believe you’re supposed to “sympathize” with anyone shows you still don’t get it Watch them end up going entirely out of their way to try and make you feel bad for Abby and the other stupids.
|
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2020 00:41
|
|
|
Oxxidation posted:that you still believe you’re supposed to “sympathize” with anyone shows you still don’t get it yeah that's me giving them the benefit of the doubt because 'everyone sucks on all sides, please buy tlou3 for the ps5' is even dumber than expecting the audience to sympathize with abby
|
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2020 00:41
|
|
|
tbf them sending Joel out to die as soon as he starts protesting probably didn't help his mental state much. he didn't have to go on a rampage but it literally became a matter of life or death for him after they started escorting him out of the building without any supplies edit: oh I rewatched it and the fireflies literally introduce themselves to Joel by threatening him at gunpoint and knocking him out while he was trying to give CPR to Ellie lol these guys deserved to die
|
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2020 00:43
|
|
|
RBA Starblade posted:I... was being sarcastic. we have it cos of like, very bad parents who dont like vaccines or other things weirdo conservative parents would do that is actively harmful. having a vaccine developed and viable regardless of ability to deliver is objectively better and means humanity can avoid utter extinction
|
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2020 00:45
|
|
|
SirKibbles posted:Also I want to point out that the bolded part never works people see what you're doing and double down out of spite ie : Sylvanas or Dany in GoT A lot of people are also blind to the awful things that characters they like do. But also, a lot of people are awful themselves. It sort of reminds me of the Reylo fandom in a way.
|
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2020 00:45
|
|
|
CharlestonJew posted:tbf them sending Joel out to die as soon as he starts protesting probably didn't help his mental state much. he didn't have to go on a rampage but it literally became a matter of life or death for him after they started escorting him out of the building without any supplies hm actually given how joel acts later this justifies them entirely and i find them without fault and theyre the good guys to me now
|
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2020 00:47
|
|
|
Joel did nothing wrong but he isnt a good human being
|
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2020 00:47
|
|
|
nvm I misread stuff
|
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2020 00:48
|
|
|
ImpAtom posted:A significant portion of TLOU is Joel gradually treating Ellie as someone who is capable of taking responsibility for serious things, eventually giving her weapons and then we come to the climactic part of the story where you literally take control of Ellie as she kills people. It is almost exclusively in self-defense but Ellie has a double digit body count (even ignoring video game stuff) by the time they reach the Fireflies. I know what the game is going for and I disagree with the bolded premise linking self defense and consent on other topics / in general. I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.
|
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2020 00:48
|
|
|
CharlestonJew posted:tbf them sending Joel out to die as soon as he starts protesting probably didn't help his mental state much. he didn't have to go on a rampage but it literally became a matter of life or death for him after they started escorting him out of the building without any supplies Yeah they were terrible right off the bat, hmmm this man trying to revive a kid from drowning, surely a threat. And then: Can I see the kid I've spent all this time with and put all this effort into getting here before you slice her up for her brain fungus? No really you're not even gonna let me do that? You're full of poo poo. TAKE HIM OUTSIDE AND IF HE TRIES ANYTHING SHOOT HIM. Fuuuuuuck em.
|
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2020 00:48
|
|
|
FallenGod posted:I know what the game is going for and I disagree with the bolded premise linking self defense and consent on other topics / in general. I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. I mean I guess I don't get your premise then. You are also saying that if Joel had agreed then it was absolutely okay for them to kill Ellie without her consent which frankly is kind of horrific-sounding to me. 14 year olds are not literal infants. They should probably not be the be-all/end-all arbiter of everything in their life but neither should they be excluded from having an opinion on things that involve their own body and life. This is true for things like vaccine, abortion, and various other important matters. Hell if a child needs a medical procedure and their parents want to let God and Essential Oils sort it out instead, most people would consider that a form of child abuse. Teenagers are recognized as being able to consent in medical matters (though usually they need a third party or outside source to verify their decision.) ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 00:55 on Apr 29, 2020 |
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2020 00:49
|
|
|
Yardbomb posted:Yeah they were terrible right off the bat, hmmm this man trying to revive a kid from drowning, surely a threat. again kind of missing that joel is, and they also do know this, a monsterous murderer already, and he then literally kills them all. are we to think if they just let him see her he wouldve just gone "ok cool bye" lol
|
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2020 00:51
|
|
|
if anything they shouldve just killed him right there given how the situation plays out
|
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2020 00:52
|
|
|
Stux posted:again kind of missing that joel is, and they also do know this, a monsterous murderer already, and he then literally kills them all. are we to think if they just let him see her he wouldve just gone "ok cool bye" lol if there was one person that could have stopped God of Death Joel it's Ellie (and now Abby I guess)
|
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2020 00:53
|
|
|
ImpAtom posted:I mean I guess I don't get your premise then. You are also saying that if Joel had agreed then it was absolutely okay for them to kill Ellie without her consent which frankly is kind of horrific-sounding to me. I'm not really seeing a real world analogue for this that isn't trolley problem nonsense or some bizarre edge case like a parent consenting to separate conjoined twins but somehow against their will?
|
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2020 00:54
|
|
|
Stux posted:if anything they shouldve just killed him right there given how the situation plays out correct, when you think about it it's really their own fault that they got killed
|
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2020 00:55
|
|
|
FallenGod posted:I'm not really seeing a real world analogue for this that isn't trolley problem nonsense or some bizarre edge case like a parent consenting to separate conjoined twins but somehow against their will? you realise outside the US is pretty common that minors can overrule parents specifically on medical matters. like to get insanely real in the uk the largest use of it is to protect trans kids from awful garbage parents. its not really trolley problem nonsense.
|
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2020 00:56
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 1, 2024 08:05 |
|
|
fridge corn posted:I had been planning to pick this game up maybe a year out after release at a good discount but after reading these leaks I probably won't even bother. I'll pay 50% of the purchase price if you get it day one and provide a brief 1000 word fridge corn take on each chapter in the PS4 thread.
|
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2020 00:59
|
|
