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Doctor Jeep posted:and? what's this in reference to? if you like the guy and wanted to post his wiki that's ok, but I don't see why you had to quote my post to do it? I thought it was weird too because I'm not sure what their point was. Being a Top Climate Expert does not preclude one from being a loving Idiot Liberal. e: not to squander a snipe, here's Daou, still at it again today: https://twitter.com/peterdaou/status/1255862413422989319 e2: he retweeted this gem https://twitter.com/AdamPrince8/status/1255764050723713030 
Solanumai fucked around with this message at 16:26 on Apr 30, 2020 |
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Apr 30, 2020 16:02
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DeeplyConcerned posted:No I was just saying if Biden is worse than Trump on climate change it makes more sense to vote for Trump than to not vote at all. Look, we all know what you're doing here so you can stop pretending. But even if we take you at face value then, as has been explained at least a thousand times ITT, everyone who is unwilling to take the necessary actions to halt climate change is functionally equivalent because we'll end up in the exact same situation anyway, i.e. completely hosed. Also we on the left have basic moral standards, so we won't support the other rapist either. TyrantWD posted:They really aren’t vote blue no matter who types when it comes to Bernie. A lot of them are fairly comfortable suburban folks, with good health insurance and would rather huff and puff about Trump than take a financial hit under Bernie. It's funny that you're admitting that the only reasons ever offered to vote for Biden are actually cynical bullshit when arguing in defense of voting for Biden.
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Apr 30, 2020 16:11
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Shere posted:I thought it was weird too because I'm not sure what their point was. Being a Top Climate Expert does not preclude one from being a loving Idiot Liberal. The ultra wealthy men don't like #me too, Biden is giving them 2 birds for 1 stone.
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Apr 30, 2020 16:14
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FRINGE posted:Biden cant step aside without exposing several decades of crime/grift/fraud activity his family members have been "constantly adjacent" to for decades. Wall Street Joe was a Good Upstanding Senator to hide behind, but if he fails in this final DNC mission the rest of them have nothing. While the politics of trying to win with an essentially-unelected nominee (Hubert Humphrey, basically) are very problematic, Biden stepping down is the easiest poo poo in the world. He's an old man who is clearly addled and even his supporters quietly question his fitness for office. If Biden stepped down, nobody would ever say his name again after a week went by.
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Apr 30, 2020 16:16
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Democrats owe Brett Kavanaugh a formal apology and a beer, I've heard he likes beer.
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Apr 30, 2020 16:17
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spunkshui posted:The ultra wealthy men don't like #me too, Biden is giving them 2 birds for 1 stone. Epstein probably spooked them and they want it made clear there will be no more consequences for rich white men.
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Apr 30, 2020 16:19
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My vote doesn't matter as a new yorker. but so far I'm totally ambivalent as to my preference between a biden victory and a trump victory. A Biden win would (supposedly) move us to a slightly more sane place on civil rights and some immigration issues (maybe??) but we could kiss universal healthcare goodbye for at least 10 more years, any progress on climate change would be wholly insufficient, and I have no confidence that he would be meaningfully better than Trump on Dreamers, the economy, or foreign affairs. Also he's a rapist. A Trump win would retain our current hellscape, but could teach establishment dems to not take the left's vote for granted and could pave the way for an AOC type to actually push for M4A and GND in 4 years rather than 8. I'm sure someone has a better tally of the pros and cons of either scenario. but right now I can't expect any Dem to make a compelling case for actually supporting Biden.
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Apr 30, 2020 16:24
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Jay-V posted:. I'm not pretending there is a good choice here and I hope Biden drops out, but your "could" is doing a lot of heavy lifting. The more likely result is that four more years of trump solidifies and entrenched right wing rule through capture of the courts and the voting system, and nobody left of Sarah Palin has any voice in American government for the foreseeable future.
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Apr 30, 2020 16:27
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:I'm not pretending there is a good choice here and I hope Biden drops out, but your "could" is doing a lot of heavy lifting. The more likely result is that four more years of trump solidifies and entrenched right wing rule through capture of the courts and the voting system, and nobody left of Sarah Palin has any voice in American government for the foreseeable future. That has already happened, short of court packing.
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Apr 30, 2020 16:28
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misadventurous posted:Sanders consistently polled as popular second choice for nearly every candidate including Biden. I don’t get why consideration always has to go to the theoretical moderates/hardcore Never Bernies, there’s absolutely evidence that he’d have had a good shot in the general, gently caress the electability myth. I mean I do get it because that’s the logic that the party themselves use, but we’re not beholden to that logic over here in reality The reason nobody is talking about that is because the Dems would rather run nobody than Bernie, who they don't control and who is proposing their rich handlers submit to popular reform. The reason the Bernie defectors keep getting cited is because they know or suspect Biden's gonna lose and they're setting up who to blame
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Apr 30, 2020 16:30
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I think the reason people who watch a lot of cable news are more supportive of Biden - besides that they're more invested in the general blue v. red narrative - is that when you watch cable news, you actually see Trump speak, which is enraging and terrifying. Sure, if you just read the tweets, or read about his official actions, you're like, wow, this guy is petty, erratic and dangerous. But when I actually listen to him speak for more than 10 seconds consecutively, I get this deep, visceral hatred response, and that's true of a lot of people. He was a famously annoying person even when he had no real power at all. It's all relatively shallow, as far as evaluating his performance goes, but if you willingly exposed yourself to that poo poo every day you'd probably be ready to vote for Epstein himself to make it stop. (Of course, they could also stop watching cable news.)
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Apr 30, 2020 16:31
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Nobody is happy and any likely outcome is terrible, I am deeply unhappy but my cold sorrow is warmed slightly by the fact that for some goddamned reason the centrists and Biden backers are just as unhappy as I am despite their guy winning. I guess they were expecting Bernie people to throw their hands up and come to God about how tepid austerity and cowardice are great actually? Is it because they are going to have to be the ones busting their rear end to get their guy elected because it turns out their plan was to alienate the entire activist base of the party?Mellow Seas posted:I think the reason people who watch a lot of cable news are more supportive of Biden - besides that they're more invested in the general blue v. red narrative - is that when you watch cable news, you actually see Trump speak, which is enraging and terrifying. Sure, if you just read the tweets, or read about his official actions, you're like, wow, this guy is petty, erratic and dangerous. But when I actually listen to him speak for more than 10 seconds consecutively, I get this deep, visceral hatred response, and that's true of a lot of people. He was a famously annoying person even when he had no real power at all. you're in the minority here, Trump was all over the news nonstop in 2016 and won, it's a winning strategy for him even if donut twitter thinks he's a moron, which is why I am especially frustrated that the Dems think the best play is to do and say nothing
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Apr 30, 2020 16:35
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Epic High Five posted:Nobody is happy and any likely outcome is terrible, I am deeply unhappy but my cold sorrow is warmed slightly by the fact that for some goddamned reason the centrists and Biden backers are just as unhappy as I am despite their guy winning. I guess they were expecting Bernie people to throw their hands up and come to God about how tepid austerity and cowardice are great actually? Is it because they are going to have to be the ones busting their rear end to get their guy elected because it turns out their plan was to alienate the entire activist base of the party? The happy people are like 5% professional centrist liberal dickwads, and the other 95% who voted for him in the primaries had analysis that went about as far as "Obama good, Obama VP good!", and those people don't talk about politics on bulletin board systems. Epic High Five posted:you're in the minority here, Trump was all over the news nonstop in 2016 and won, it's a winning strategy for him even if donut twitter thinks he's a moron, which is why I am especially frustrated that the Dems think the best play is to do and say nothing
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Apr 30, 2020 16:46
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Yeah, but this is before the Biden shitstorm fully spins up. Trump just needs the chuds to turn out, and they will. The Dems NEED everyone they can, and Biden is directly a threat to that.
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Apr 30, 2020 16:47
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I think as absolutely demonic as Biden is a combination of the horror of Trump and the fallout from coronavirus will get him over the top. But if we are at greater than great depression levels of unemployment and the bipartisan consensus of Washington is to tell us all to gently caress off and die things might get really loving crazy pretty quick as people can no longer afford food and grow desperate
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Apr 30, 2020 16:53
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Mellow Seas posted:Anybody think there is any chance of Biden quitting? I’ve lost my commute in the quarantine (which is good), which means that I’ve lost my usual source of exposure to poo poo like MSNBC (which is... also good, on the balance) and now I’m one of those people who gets a massively disproportionate amount of his news and analysis via D&D, so I’m way off the lib pulse right now. Is there any sign of bending in establishment media? Theoretically possible, but very unlikely. The only other candidate with the name recognition to have a shot in hell is Bernie and the centrist wing isn’t going there. Their best bet is to ignore the allegations and hope they go away which is looking increasingly unlikely to happen at this point. Basically the Democrats are hosed. Best to come to terms with it now and take solace in the fact that every fake-progressive careerist who was hoping to ride Biden’s coattails into power will be making some of the most delicious meltdown tweets ever come November.
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Apr 30, 2020 16:56
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Mellow Seas posted:Are they as unhappy? I think anybody who's unhappy feels that way because they know that either Biden is a terrible candidate (inarticulate at his best, likely rapist, definitely infirm) or because they don't like his record/policy positions. The people who are here arguing with you aren't actual Biden supporters, they (we, I guess) are people who are leaning the other way from you on the possibly-irrelevant question of "how do we deal with this terrible bullshit?" they do not but I've yet to run into somebody irl in political spheres who is happy about him winning either, and the raw numbers say that enthusiasm for him is basically nil so that makes sense. I've actually seen a lot more fired up Biden people online than anywhere else, whereas with Bernie and Hillary you could pretty easily find superfans in both spheres. I think now that the "haha we STUCK IT to those goddamned commies!" mania is fading they realize that their dude may just eat poo poo and aren't taking this information on board. Anybody actually defending him actively is having to do so from their left which they didn't expect and don't know how to deal with, and they're having to abandon all their pretenses like MeToo in order to do it it doesn't bode well as to the 2nd point, I think a lot of people think he's an idiot but they also think he's their idiot so they don't care. Cable networks combined only get like 10% of the country's eyes nightly and even then it's massively skewed toward older and whiter people, it's not terribly reliable in terms of gauging what is shaping peoples' perceptions
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Apr 30, 2020 16:57
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Feldegast42 posted:I think as absolutely demonic as Biden is a combination of the horror of Trump and the fallout from coronavirus will get him over the top. But if we are at greater than great depression levels of unemployment and the bipartisan consensus of Washington is to tell us all to gently caress off and die things might get really loving crazy pretty quick as people can no longer afford food and grow desperate I have a really strong feeling that there is going to be no party you can vote against austerity with.
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Apr 30, 2020 16:59
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https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/elec...13odjh?ocid=sf2 The most progressive platform ever.
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Apr 30, 2020 17:00
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Gumball Gumption posted:https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/elec...13odjh?ocid=sf2 this stuff is why I don't understand why anybody is bothering to try to get the left on board, because the campaign and party clearly have no intention of doing so and are in fact actively hostile to the idea. Want to help Biden win because even though you hate him and all of his policies? Go recruit Republicans, that's their plan. Even if you convince a leftist holdout now you're going to lose them in a couple months when he announces a half Republican cabinet and Nikki Haley as VP the funniest part is that the Republicans they're chasing are just as unflinching in their demands as the left, any that would consider going for Biden because Trump's been a disappointment will see his having a slightly less conservative VP as a dealbreaker lmao
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Apr 30, 2020 17:04
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ManBoyChef posted:I have a really strong feeling that there is going to be no party you can vote against austerity with. While I don't think it's a sure thing, I'm actually significantly more worried about austerity under Biden than Trump, and it's the main reason I can't fully commit to accepting Biden right now (especially when he's hiring people like Summers). I've been meaning to make a bigger post about it, but the basic idea is that Republicans only care about deficits when the President is a Democrat, and Biden pretty famously cares what Republicans think about things, and loves being seen as "serious". The budget deficit this year is probably going to be three or four times larger than ever before, and as soon as GDP growth ticks back up over 0.0% a lot of evil rich fucks are going to start filling up that bathtub to drown the government in it.
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Apr 30, 2020 17:05
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ManBoyChef posted:I have a really strong feeling that there is going to be no party you can vote against austerity with. If the country collapses before November there might be no parties at all
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Apr 30, 2020 17:05
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Mellow Seas posted:While I don't think it's a sure thing, I'm actually significantly more worried about austerity under Biden than Trump, and it's the main reason I can't fully commit to accepting Biden right now (especially when he's hiring people like Summers). I've been meaning to make a bigger post about it, but the basic idea is that Republicans only care about deficits when the President is a Democrat, and Biden pretty famously cares what Republicans think about things, and loves being seen as "serious". Biden's singular focus will be on austerity, and huuuuuuge amounts of it, to pay for the COVID spending and let's not forget the debt ceiling that Pelosi kindly placed 6 months into his term that gives him yet another excuse to shake off any spending promises he made Trump at least will reject is because he's become addicted to money printer and would resent its absence There's no scenario under either of them that doesn't end up with the rich being insanely richer and the working class being more hosed than ever
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Apr 30, 2020 17:07
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trump is a viable candidate because politics are a joke to a lot of people, his lies don't matter because all politicians are accepted as being liars
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Apr 30, 2020 17:08
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quote:"I don't have any limitation on if someone were a Republican if they're the best-qualified person to do it," he said. "But I'm not there yet." He's going to put Mitt loving Romney on there because universal Romneycare is the most progressive thing that's happened in America lately.
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Apr 30, 2020 17:11
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Mellow Seas posted:This is kind of a conspiracy theory, isn't it? And if the supposed dark forces that are blackmailing Biden into running are withholding this information, they could theoretically continue to do so in exchange for his stepping down. Maybe I'm misunderstanding you. No. Its the history of the Biden family. https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2019/08/02/joe-biden-investigation-hunter-brother-hedge-fund-money-2020-campaign-227407 Ive posted it before with more effort. Having a powerful politician as face-man allowed them to walk away from a bunch of scams where their associates went under or went in.
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Apr 30, 2020 17:11
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demagogues appear when politics are clearly failing because people stop caring trump is a symptom of much broader decay in american society. biden is running on keeping that dysfunction in place - this must be seen to be rejected
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Apr 30, 2020 17:11
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V. Illych L. posted:trump is a viable candidate because politics are a joke to a lot of people, his lies don't matter because all politicians are accepted as being liars This is what 'lesser evil' voting gets you. There is nothing Trump has done than the politicians we're expected to respect haven't, even before Biden was rammed through. Trump is normal now. You're not going to get less Trumps. You're going to get more.
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Apr 30, 2020 17:12
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Epic High Five posted:Biden's singular focus will be on austerity, and huuuuuuge amounts of it, to pay for the COVID spending and let's not forget the debt ceiling that Pelosi kindly placed 6 months into his term that gives him yet another excuse to shake off any spending promises he made The real kick in the nutsack is that while Trump is more than willing to increase the deficit indefinitely by buying the military tanks it doesn't want and cutting taxes for the rich, he's also always down to cut social programs at the same time. We get one guy who will say "although it's painful, we all have to tighten our belts" and another guy who will just outright say "gently caress you poors, get money or get dead".
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Apr 30, 2020 17:13
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Mellow Seas posted:The real kick in the nutsack is that while Trump is more than willing to increase the deficit indefinitely by buying the military tanks it doesn't want and cutting taxes for the rich, he's also always down to cut social programs at the same time. We get one guy who will say "although it's painful, we all have to tighten our belts" and another guy who will just outright say "gently caress you poors, get money or get dead". Literally the only distinction is branding.
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Apr 30, 2020 17:13
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Mellow Seas posted:The real kick in the nutsack is that while Trump is more than willing to increase the deficit indefinitely by buying the military tanks it doesn't want and cutting taxes for the rich, he's also always down to cut social programs at the same time. We get one guy who will say "although it's painful, we all have to tighten our belts" and another guy who will just outright say "gently caress you poors, get money or get dead". I think Trump MIGHT go HAM on social security/medicare and everything else that people pay for to enjoy collectivized and universal benefits from, it's certainly ideologically coherent for him inasfar as he has a coherent ideology. He might also leave them alone and just keep printing money, because he knows full well that money is fake news and anybody stopping him would crater the markets Biden absolutely would, nothing in the whole world could stop him, not only has his entire campaign been about how everything is too expensive and we need to deal with the deficit, but his whole career has been as well. Fiscally, he's basically exactly aligned with Paul Ryan One thing I'm especially unhappy about is that Trump is by far the best choice if you're worried about warmongering or foreign policy. He's not a GOOD choice, but he's the best of the two and probably top 3 of all options in my life
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Apr 30, 2020 17:17
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man I'm really going to go insane when Trump pulls an October surprise and lowers the Medicare sign up age to 0 because he found out insurance lobbies give more to the Dems, and he doesn't care who he pisses off he just wants to win
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Apr 30, 2020 17:19
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Yeah, a big part of the whole 'Get the adults back in charge' pitch isn't a positive for leftists who are well aware that the serious adults will just do bad things with more purpose and competence, and expect the people whose lives they ruin to be grateful. Trump understands bread and circuses. There's a reason he made sure his names are on the cheques, and it's not just vanity. It's the base fulfilment of the social contract, something Democrats have entirely forgotten.
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Apr 30, 2020 17:22
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:I'm not pretending there is a good choice here and I hope Biden drops out, but your "could" is doing a lot of heavy lifting. The more likely result is that four more years of trump solidifies and entrenched right wing rule through capture of the courts and the voting system, and nobody left of Sarah Palin has any voice in American government for the foreseeable future. Exactly. Remember when everyone in 2016 was saying how dangerous a Hillary presidency would be and that Trump is in fact the lesser of two evils, that the level of harm to people would be about the same, and that 4 years of Trump would lead to a great progressive uprising and that the Democratic Party would be forced into a huge shift to the left. As for Biden making people complacent but Trump keeping people vigilant - the only reason there is such engagement in the Trump era is people outside of the death cult are eager to keep Trump from being re-elected. You think people aren’t going to tune out once Trump is re-elected? Four more years of Trump is going to get people willing to go back to the 2020 status-quo, let alone the pre-Trump era. I don’t disagree that Biden is awful. The best case scenario as people laid out is that he picks a decent VP, then steps down to health issues before his term is up and we get another shot in 2024 without ceding a 6-3 Supreme Court and 4 years of a Steven Miller fever dream.
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Apr 30, 2020 17:22
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TyrantWD posted:Exactly. Remember when everyone in 2016 was saying how dangerous a Hillary presidency would be and that Trump is in fact the lesser of two evils, that the level of harm to people would be about the same, and that 4 years of Trump would lead to a great progressive uprising and that the Democratic Party would be forced into a huge shift to the left. It pretty much did. Just no one realised just how far the Democrats would go to shut out the progressive wing and resist giving the left an inch.
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Apr 30, 2020 17:24
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Epic High Five posted:Biden's singular focus will be on austerity, and huuuuuuge amounts of it Epic High Five posted:Fiscally, he's basically exactly aligned with Paul Ryan I dont know how people dont understand this. Biden is on video bragging about it on CSPAN back when his brain still worked. lol CSPAN scrubbed the link I had Heres another that is still there: https://www.c-span.org/video/?c4847444/user-clip-joe-biden-cutting-ss quote:I WANT TO GO ON RECORD, I AM UP FOR RE-ELECTION THIS YEAR I WANT TO REMIND EVERYBODY WHAT I DID AT HOME WHICH WILL COST ME POLITICALLY. WHEN I ARGUED IF WE SHOULD FREEZE FEDERAL SPENDING, I MEANT SOCIAL SECURITY AS WELL. I MEANT MEDICARE AND MEDICAID. I MEANT VETERANS BENEFITS. I MEANT EVERY INK SINGLE SOME TERRY THING IN THE GOVERNMENT. AND I NOT ONLY TRIED IT ONCE, I TRIED IT TWICE, I TRIED IT A THIRD TIME, AND I'VE [tried it a fourth time] Joe Biden Tried to Cut Social Security, Medicaid, and Medicare for 40 Years https://www.jacobinmag.com/2020/01/joe-biden-social-security-medicaid-medicare-medicaid-cuts How Biden Helped Strip Bankruptcy Protection From Millions Just Before a Recession https://www.gq.com/story/joe-biden-bankruptcy-bill
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Apr 30, 2020 17:27
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Yeah, the only part of that which is wrong is the part where people thought the party would move left for the best chance of winning the general instead of committing suicide in an attempt to take the left down too.
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Apr 30, 2020 17:27
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Honestly, I think there is going to be a lot less "I'm not voting/i'm writing in Bernie" than some of you seem to think. I think some of you live in a bubble and extrapolate that out too much. Twitter outrage doesn't translate well into real world politics. Especially with both Bernie and AOC endorsing Biden. It's just going to be a bunch of people who would have voted for Bernie, but in a normal election cycle they wouldn't vote for a DNC candidate anyways. I think the amount of people who would have voted for someone like Buttigieg but will not vote for Biden is probably pretty small. Personally, I think the outcome of this election hinges more on people who voted for Trump than people who might vote for Biden. Did Trump piss off enough of his old supporters? Also how does the economy look like for the month prior to the election? I think those will be the two biggest factors.
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Apr 30, 2020 17:28
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Epic High Five posted:man I'm really going to go insane when Trump pulls an October surprise and lowers the Medicare sign up age to 0 because he found out insurance lobbies give more to the Dems, and he doesn't care who he pisses off he just wants to win If that happens suddenly the whole DNC rigging debacle will have been worth it. Grapplejack posted:Biden wouldn't have sent out the covid checks, so Yeah same type (but lesser) result of Trumps mental problems. Better than what a Clinton would have done no matter the insanity behind it.
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Apr 30, 2020 17:32
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Trump's voters will crawl over broken glass to vote for him again. The only candidate who was actually getting crossover from the Republicans was Bernie.
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Apr 30, 2020 17:33
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