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Elon should leverage his Trump style pants making GBS threads into getting the EV tax credit back. Apparently the loving White House demanded a tax credit expansion be removed on the budget bill this winter.
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Apr 29, 2020 15:27
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Bum the Sad posted:Elon should leverage his Trump style pants making GBS threads into getting the EV tax credit back. Apparently the loving White House demanded a tax credit expansion be removed on the budget bill this winter. They've been trying to get rid of it for years, but it hasn't held yet. If it came back, I'm not convinced Tesla wouldn't just hike their prices $7,500 immediately. It would need to be rewritten so it can be implemented differently.
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Apr 29, 2020 18:08
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Thread, bank left! Here's a fun article about electric gliders: https://www.flyingmag.com/story/aircraft/technicalities-sing-airplane-electric/ posted:I Sing the Airplane Electric
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Apr 29, 2020 18:27
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While I understand the reasons behind the EV tax credit, there are pretty good arguments against it (in many cases it's been the average Joe subsidizing a second or third expensive vehicle for someone relatively well off), and it isn't needed if you go by fleet CO2 emissions. At least in Europe, the big auto manufacturers will be selling BEVs at a loss so they can sell profitable ICE vehicles. Of course Trump isn't going to do anything about fleet emissions in the US, but he won't do the tax credit either. When/if the US gets a president who does care, we can just tighten up the fleet emission standards if we desire.
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Apr 29, 2020 19:43
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i only buy cars from union breaking companies that cover up huge amounts of preventable deaths to save $1, which is why I bought a bolt instead of a tesla
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Apr 29, 2020 19:44
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Westy543 posted:They've been trying to get rid of it for years, but it hasn't held yet. If it came back, I'm not convinced Tesla wouldn't just hike their prices $7,500 immediately. It would need to be rewritten so it can be implemented differently. I think the White House keeps failing to remove the bill due to GM & Ford lobbyists reminding them that they stand to benefit from it. Edit: MomJeans420 posted:While I understand the reasons behind the EV tax credit, there are pretty good arguments against it (in many cases it's been the average Joe subsidizing a second or third expensive vehicle for someone relatively well off), and it isn't needed if you go by fleet CO2 emissions. At least in Europe, the big auto manufacturers will be selling BEVs at a loss so they can sell profitable ICE vehicles. Of course Trump isn't going to do anything about fleet emissions in the US, but he won't do the tax credit either. When/if the US gets a president who does care, we can just tighten up the fleet emission standards if we desire. EV incentives should be the opposite; make it more expensive to buy and register ICE vehicles. China's doing it. Nfcknblvbl fucked around with this message at 19:48 on Apr 29, 2020 |
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Apr 29, 2020 19:45
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Ulf posted:Thread, bank left! Here’s the link, more easily accessed: https://www.flyingmag.com/story/aircraft/technicalities-sing-airplane-electric/
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Apr 29, 2020 19:45
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Nfcknblvbl posted:EV incentives should be the opposite; make it more expensive to buy and register ICE vehicles. China's doing it. That's what Norway does, right? No taxes on EVs, significant fossil fuel tax on new ICE vehicles? Bernie Panders posted:i only buy cars from union breaking companies that cover up huge amounts of preventable deaths to save $1, which is why I bought a bolt instead of a tesla  Big Elon thinks, can't bust a union if you never let one form.
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Apr 29, 2020 20:13
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Nfcknblvbl posted:EV incentives should be the opposite; make it more expensive to buy and register ICE vehicles. China's doing it. Regressive as hell. Stay classy.
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Apr 29, 2020 20:48
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Bernie Panders posted:i only buy cars from union breaking companies that cover up huge amounts of preventable deaths to save $1, which is why I bought a bolt instead of a tesla I bought from both. Not a ton of real options.
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Apr 29, 2020 21:17
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Godholio posted:Regressive as hell. Stay classy. Kind of an interesting question - how do you promote better policies without regression when relatively poor people will be hurt by change?
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Apr 29, 2020 21:21
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Nfcknblvbl posted:EV incentives should be the opposite; make it more expensive to buy and register ICE vehicles. China's doing it. Yeah, the real problem with BEV adoption is that it's not loving over the working poor hard enough.
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Apr 29, 2020 21:29
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There's one model which is popular among people that talk about models, which I don't think has been tried in practice. Basically you a tax on thing A goes directly to subsidize thing B. There would be a fixed tax on fossil cars which then would be divided up and given as discounts or refunds to those that bought electric. If tons of people buy fossil, the discounts to electric are very big. Once people stop buying fossil, the subsidy goes away by itself. Knowing Norway, 80% of it would somehow get wasted on admin along the way. And the refund itself would be a bit of an admin job. Do you go by year, by month? Or do you discount next year's cars with this year's taxes? But while it might raise the prices of used cars ever so slightly, it wouldn't affect lower incomes disproportionately because they are not buying new cars.
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Apr 29, 2020 21:32
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Yeah, the problem with his brilliant plan is actually the "register" part. Like you say, the working poor aren't buying new cars. Jacking up registrations on ICE cars would be rough on people that can't afford a BEV, especially onerous if we do another round of Cash 4 Clunkers (and we absolutely loving will...) and destroy the low-priced used car market again.
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Apr 29, 2020 21:37
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The focus should be on fuel consumption of new vehicles entering the fleet - get that average down significantly and it'll flow through to the second hand market. It isn't straightforward to implement because there will still need to be exemptions for commercial vehicles and that's going to cause problems (last thing you want to do is incentivise larger pickup trucks)
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Apr 29, 2020 21:45
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Q_res posted:Yeah, the real problem with BEV adoption is that it's not loving over the working poor hard enough. I didn’t say that our policy has to be as harsh as China’s. Right now, we have a gas guzzler tax and I don’t hear much of an uproar on this. I’m simply saying that the EV tax credit on its own isn’t very progressive since all it really does is inflate the upfront cost of vehicles in order to benefit the manufacturer instead of the customer. Edit: And what I meant by making it more difficult to buy and register vehicles is that this should only apply to new cars which never have been registered. I don't think it's unfair to have higher initial registration taxes on new vehicles if they're either inefficient or registering in areas with stringent smog edicts. Heck, counties all over are already doing this by taxing fuel a bit more than their neighbors. Nfcknblvbl fucked around with this message at 22:08 on Apr 29, 2020 |
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Apr 29, 2020 21:57
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Clamping down on cars isn't the answer. People just started buying trucks and SUVs instead. That's where you need to clamp down. Get rid of the exemption for heavy duty trucks not having to list an EPA rating on the Moroney and tighten CAFE standards on light trucks. Narrow the divide between the standards for cars and light trucks, significantly. I realize that is politically thorny at best, but all you're doing otherwise is killing the least harmful ICE vehicles.
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Apr 29, 2020 22:20
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True that, the only reason why SUVs took off in the 90s is the fact that they were somehow able to sidestep efforts to save on gas. I really do like what USA's done to make our cars cleaner and cheaper, just don't give soccer moms an easy out by selling 12 mpg behemoths.
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Apr 29, 2020 22:22
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One standard, period, is the way to go. Assuming, that is, we can't have no standard and an aggressively motivating carbon tax.
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Apr 30, 2020 00:13
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Also, tightening the CAFE standards as they exist is a fools errand, since what it mostly does is forces the OEs to produce cars that are capable of achieving the required numbers on the test loop, sometimes at a hilarious cost to what the car can do in real life.
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Apr 30, 2020 00:21
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:Kind of an interesting question - how do you promote better policies without regression when relatively poor people will be hurt by change? You incentivize to make the better policies/products adoptable by a larger percentage of the population. Adding 5-10k to the cost of a new car isn't going to get many people to suddenly buy EVs instead...it's going to make people stop buying cars, or resort to predatory lending. The first part also applies to significant increases in registration taxes/fees or fuel taxes. We're not talking about vice purchases, we're talking about something that for tens of millions of Americans (I suspect "hundreds of millions" would be accurate) is a fundamental requirement to be a participating member of society and the economy.
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Apr 30, 2020 02:16
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This discussion makes it all the more amusing that my state (Wisconsin) basically penalizes you for buying a EV or a hybrid vehicle by adding surcharges to the yearly vehicle registration. $75 extra for a hybrid, $100 extra for a full on EV. Although I understand the reason: someone realized that hybrids pay very little gas tax and full on EVs pay none, so they had to find some other way to make it up.
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Apr 30, 2020 02:48
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Road taxes by weight! Don't let Amazon and UPS et al weasel out of it.
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Apr 30, 2020 02:56
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Godholio posted:You incentivize to make the better policies/products adoptable by a larger percentage of the population. Sure, OK - we all agree on that. What do you think is a sensible policy to achieve this goal?
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Apr 30, 2020 03:35
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LRADIKAL posted:Road taxes by weight! Don't let Amazon and UPS et al weasel out of it. In a sea of poo poo takes, this one glimmers as a beacon of hope that this thread can be good
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Apr 30, 2020 04:35
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Indiana_Krom posted:This discussion makes it all the more amusing that my state (Wisconsin) basically penalizes you for buying a EV or a hybrid vehicle by adding surcharges to the yearly vehicle registration. $75 extra for a hybrid, $100 extra for a full on EV. LRADIKAL posted:Road taxes by weight! Don't let Amazon and UPS et al weasel out of it.
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Apr 30, 2020 12:04
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Godholio posted:You incentivize to make the better policies/products adoptable by a larger percentage of the population. Simply having my state not charge sales was a big motivator for me to buy my Leaf, since that 10% discount, plus the already low price of a relatively niche and low-range EV made me buy a much newer car, instead of the $2000 crapcans that I normally purchase. I did pay almost $1000 in registration fees, most of that going to public transit initiatives, but I got most of it back because I live in the boonies where public transit is a joke (why they would charge me full price for the region I bought the car, and refund based on where I live, instead of just charging me based on my address is beyond my reasoning abilities).
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Apr 30, 2020 15:22
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My state (Indiana) started charging $50 for PHEVs/Hybrids, and $150 for BEVs. But its reasonable IMHO. Indiana taxes gas at 46 cents per gallon (not including the 18.4 cents federal tax). $150 is equivalent to a 30MPG car driving just under 10k miles a year.
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Apr 30, 2020 16:07
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In California we upped the gas tax and increased registration fees, which ended up being a fairly substantial increase (I pay $150 more a year now in registration fees for my SUV than I would have pre-2018). The nice thing about having it in the price of gas is it kind of hits the people who use the roads more, and it's spread out across the entire year, but it's also regressive. If we went 100% electric we'd have to add a huge fee to registration, or probably switch to some making multiple payments across the year system. I don't mind the increase as long as it's actually used for improving the roads, some of the most used freeways in LA (looking at you the 5) are absolutely horrible to use if you're on something like a motorcycle with a stiff suspension. My soccer mom mobile averages in the 12 to 13mpg range, so at least I'm doing my part to fund the roads.
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Apr 30, 2020 16:35
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Indiana raised the gas tax quite a bit to the current 46 cents at the same time the additional registration fees where enacted in 2018. They also tacked on an additional $15 "road improvement fee" that everyone is paying, regardless of vehicle type. At least they seem to be using it for that purpose; there has been a massive flurry of road construction all over the state the past 2 years. Also, for good measure, the county I live in, tacked another $50 tax on registrations for all residents. So my registration costs about $600 a year now on a 2017 Volt.
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Apr 30, 2020 16:49
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Check this oot: https://www.webbmotorworks.com/electric-crate-motor Pretty cool, eh!
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Apr 30, 2020 18:24
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Finger Prince posted:Check this oot: That is *very* cool.
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Apr 30, 2020 20:44
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Looks like I got a slow leak in a tire drat it... And looking at the state of my tires its time for new ones! Tread? what's that? Surprisingly I have made it 3 years and 52k miles on the factory set of tires on my Volt! Now the bigger question.. Get cheap all season tires or spring for the LRR variety.
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Apr 30, 2020 20:48
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MrYenko posted:So I didn’t realize traffic-control stopping had made it to public builds, and my Model 3 started stopped at stop signs leaving my neighborhood... Are we just ignoring that this rear end in a top hat has been using autopilot in his residential neighborhood and just letting it roll through stop signs?
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Apr 30, 2020 20:53
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wait, what? i thought he was manually driving and noticed that the car was intervening to apply brakes at stop signs
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Apr 30, 2020 20:58
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Speleothing posted:Are we just ignoring that this rear end in a top hat has been using autopilot in his residential neighborhood and just letting it roll through stop signs? When I tried it on a 45mph road it popped up the notification at a few hundred feet, before it started deceleration and with a decent (though still unnervingly small) amount of grace time for me to intercede. I only tried it on a couple intersections, not a stop sign -- that gives me pretty huge anxiety, even though the visualization preview has done a pretty good job with guessing where to show the stop line given all the line-less stops in my area. Edit: KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:wait, what? i thought he was manually driving and noticed that the car was intervening to apply brakes at stop signs The just-released feature won't take action unless you're on autosteering/TACC. This is not emergency avoidance. The way the first post was written could imply blindly sailing through a stop sign beforehand but I assume OP was leaving out the "hovering over the break, watching it like you just took off a clumsy kid's training wheels". keseph fucked around with this message at 21:07 on Apr 30, 2020 |
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Apr 30, 2020 21:01
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Speleothing posted:Are we just ignoring that this rear end in a top hat has been using autopilot in his residential neighborhood and just letting it roll through stop signs? Cruise set at 25 in a 25, and it alerted to the traffic control device and intentions to stop like, 700ft from the stop sign. Also, go gently caress yourself.
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Apr 30, 2020 21:21
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stevewm posted:Looks like I got a slow leak in a tire drat it... And looking at the state of my tires its time for new ones! Tread? what's that? What's your climate like? (aka where do you live?)
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Apr 30, 2020 22:03
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Finger Prince posted:Check this oot: I heard it was $60k
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Apr 30, 2020 22:21
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Charles posted:What's your climate like? (aka where do you live?) Southern Indiana....
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Apr 30, 2020 22:21
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